ATTN: Community Reps/Dev Team: PUPs of Vanadiel DEMAND a response on Automaton A.I.!

Not a PUP (yet) but I have heard these concerns over and over and I support the changes that are being asked for here.

Well I guess it is safe to say now that the developers and forum guys have ignored this thread and ignored this pup issue once again.

/clap

... waiting for official reply ...

I don't think that will help.

//but that doesn't mean we aren't all waiting for it... =\

Maybe they're still discussing about it. It's likely that we'll get an answer seeing as how strongly people are asking for it.

Yeah, they do tend to answer in spurts every few days or so.

...But that doesn't mean I'm not sharpening my pitchfork in case they don't answer soon, at least to let us know they're talking with the dev team!

Am I the only person who feels like SE is afraid to let pet jobs shine? I have to say that pet jobs (BST, SMN, PUP) are the only ones who have never had "their day in the sun."

bst, pup and smn have always been left to languish as generally "crap tier" jobs - maybe occasionally rising to mid-tier but not really. I don't see the big deal in making them on par with other jobs, but it seems like SE is afraid of letting us get too good.

I mean, I know we ARE good - especially when we team up in pet parties, but we just haven't been given a chance to shine at anything. And when we do shine (Burts/100% pet -pdt) - SE nerfs us.

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Originally Posted by Olor

I mean, I know we ARE good - especially when we team up in pet parties, but we just haven't been given a chance to shine at anything. And when we do shine (Burts/100% pet -pdt) - SE nerfs us.

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People go complaining about these jobs being over powerful is the reason...everyone used to say lolpup/lolbst, but when they actually got something that makes them not so much lol, then people wanted them to be lol'd again and complained. They could have made burts at least 5 tp a tick...10/1 is just a crazy nerf.

It's the same for how they are careful about updating RDM since it was/is too over powered.

Maybe they're afraid to make the automatons ungimp because pups would be able to solo more efficiently or maybe the creator of the AI doesn't see anything wrong with it.

They didn't really release any information about changing the AI any. Just "Adding an ability that restores an automaton's HP" and attachments/abilities. With SMN and BST you can control just about everything the pet does besides standard attacks. With the automaton, you have the AI that makes most the decisions by being influenced by maneuvers, but not exactly everything you want it to do. They should either make the AI more customizable/influenced with attachments or just change how it uses spells in priority to cures>all; nukes>all as well as lowering the Ranged delay on the Sharpshot automaton as said before.

lolpup

btw, this thread has the funniest tags I'v seen so far

/signed

Though I like the Drain~Aspir where is it... just needs to use it smarterer. ┐(´ー｀)┌

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Originally Posted by xbobx

Well I guess it is safe to say now that the developers and forum guys have ignored this thread and ignored this pup issue once again.

/clap

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I'm still confused why they don't have rules like:

"Answer one topic per job a week"

Would make it feel like SE cared about all of us, and didn't just favor a handful of jobs and ignore the others.

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Originally Posted by xbobx

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

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Doesn't work. The moderator only deletes your post, it doesn't mean the community representatives even touched the thread. Big difference between moderators and community representatives.

But it is quite fun that the following line exists in the forum rules:

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Posting content that criticises either Square Enix staff or specific individuals.

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Basically, you are not allowed to complain. Praising and general neutral questions only.

(didnt go through all the reponses)

i agree with the fixes for the mage frame AI, a simple fix like water maneuver triggering a na spell instead of cure first would be better(dark or w/e for drains and aspire). I mean i have NO control over my automation at all when it comes to these things lol. not to mention i cant say what to nuke for my blm frame, but thats not as important of an issue.

One addition i might of missed or was not mentioned is extended maneuvers. It is our biggest draw back when trying to contribute damage as it delays our own damage significantly AND really cramps up my hand if i play pup for a bit too long(inversely could add a hasso/seigan effect where one extends them and maintains normal effects and one shortens duration but improves effect....anyways, i dun wanna spitball ideas here!)

I would gladly lose half the upcoming attachments if these two minor fixes could be addressed, hell i can even overlook our paper armor for these fixes (provided i get the direct cure that they mentioned >.>)

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Basically, you are not allowed to complain. Praising and general neutral questions only.

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.......being not allowed to be a jerk to the staff does not mean your not allowed to disagree with the content that square enix posts.

You know its posting crap like this and being rude in general to SE that more likly than not is going to insure that SE is not even gonna say anything to this thread.

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Maybe they're afraid to make the automatons ungimp because pups would be able to solo more efficiently or maybe the creator of the AI doesn't see anything wrong with it.

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It's mainly a problem I hinted on earlier. How close to a second player should a pet get before it's too much? As is, there's very little penalty to the player for letting a pet die (Usually just waiting a short bit on a timer, BST having a small gil expense if using jugs). PUP, BST, and DRG can be a strong physical presence without their pet around, so it's not like they're completely useless without.

Things like the pet invulnerabilities were dumb even if they were useful or gave "a time to shine" as it were. Ultimately, it's a juggling act between what the player and pet can do, to which if people want the pet to do more, the player needs to do less. However, seeing how the early days of PUP reflected that and certainly hurt its popularity through poor gear and perhaps an incomplete implementation, perhaps too much focus has been given to both aspects that, while many might not realize the potential now, still doesn't mean it's not there. The moment a pet can completely replace a party member, however, is when things go too far. That's probably the biggest issue plaguing AI tweaks. At what point do things shift from partially inspired choices to outright delayed, conditional commands?

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Originally Posted by Darkwizardzin

.......being not allowed to be a jerk to the staff does not mean your not allowed to disagree with the content that square enix posts.

You know its posting crap like this and being rude in general to SE that more likly than not is going to insure that SE is not even gonna say anything to this thread.

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Being rude comes with being ignored a decade. The cure is to stop ignoring me. And it isn't even on a personal level, if they stop ignoring Summoner threads, I'd be happy.

Just imagine yourself trying to order a pizza 10 years and the pizza clerk refuses to reply to you. I'm sure you'd be at least a little ticked off.

I still don't understand how hard it can be to be a community representative? If I had the job, I'd be working my ass off to make people happier, instead of attempt to annoy as many people as possible by randomly replying to only a few threads.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

It's mainly a problem I hinted on earlier. How close to a second player should a pet get before it's too much?

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And it is not a problem at all. Again, a pup + automaton is still nowhere even close to competitive with as single normal job in most situations. Making the automaton slightly better than "totally worthless" isn't going to make pup overpowered, it might drag us up out of the depths of "one of the worst jobs in the game" to being just "below average". Go level pup and use it before making absurd claims about how close to two players it is.

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Originally Posted by Mercilessturtle

Again, a pup + automaton is still nowhere even close to competitive with as single normal job in most situations. Making the automaton slightly better than "totally worthless" isn't going to make pup overpowered, it might drag us up out of the depths of "one of the worst jobs in the game" to being just "below average".

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Maybe you're bad at pup? Leaving proc usefulness aside pup is nowhere near being the worst dd.

I could say my PUP does nowhere the damage of my WAR... And I would be totally wrong. Hit for hit, WS for WS, the WAR wins, clearly. But damn it, we have our automatons! When Sancho is churning 2k+ Armor Piercers around, skillchaining with my 2k+ Stringing Pummels and weakening the mob defenses in the process (as well as adding its own constant damage during the TP phase), I know i'm a damn good DD as PUP.

Seriha is right. Increasing too much the pet's power would cause imbalances. However, I don't think we're near that point, at all. Our pets, right now, as DDs makes us competitive with the best, as soloers makes us survivors with fear of strong AoEs and status effects (the latter should not be an issue, but... You know, stupid AI), and as nukers, our pets can dish out great hateless nukes at the price of slow nukes.

We're fine, and not overpowered. But there's some VERY glaring issues, listed in Psion's first post, that should be addressed.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Being rude comes with being ignored a decade. The cure is to stop ignoring me. And it isn't even on a personal level, if they stop ignoring Summoner threads, I'd be happy.

Just imagine yourself trying to order a pizza 10 years and the pizza clerk refuses to reply to you. I'm sure you'd be at least a little ticked off.

I still don't understand how hard it can be to be a community representative? If I had the job, I'd be working my ass off to make people happier, instead of attempt to annoy as many people as possible by randomly replying to only a few threads.

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You make it sound like being a community rep is easy.... you have no idea what that job entails. I'm sure there are many... many things he can't just say to the community freely... and (based on what i've seen so far) getting the information to answer some of your questions is easyer said then done. Even if he gets said information it must be a nightmare getting appoval to release it...if he's given it. This person has to take that small amount of information that he is allowed to give and make the community happy with it... as you can clearly see by your (and many others) "demand" for more information that sure as hell isn't easy. Plus he has to pass along ideas from the community back to the devs... and seeing some of the "ideas" that the comminty has given it can't be easy to weed out the bad ideas and pass along the good ones... also im sure there are many other things that needs to be done with this kind of job that we know nothing about.

I know how annoying it must be to wait so long for this information... but making rude comments isn't helping your cause at all... it's hurting it.

Oh look, it is the "please keep pup terrible" squad. No, pup is not a good DD. No, automatons do not contribute significant damage. I understand you have absolutely no concept of what kind of damage a good DD does, and have no concept of parsing instead of going "I saw one decent WS once so it must be awesome". But try doing something other than soloing and parse it, and get a glimpse of reality.

Pup is miles behind war, drg, nin, and mnk, and of course also way behind drk and sam outside of abyssea where those jobs aren't getting screwed by their lack of crit WS. And yes, that is including automaton damage. There is no magical "being good at pup" skill that negates the fundamental game mechanics. Pup has high delay, low damage, slow tp gain, awful DD gear, and no DD abilities natively. This is supposed to be made up for by having an automaton. Automatons barely contribute more offense than a drg's wyvern, and are way less useful defensively.

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Automatons barely contribute more offense than a drg's wyvern, and are way less useful defensively.

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K. I confirm my previous statement.

While I agree to everything in this thread, I would also like to request a simple thing.

If your post something on the jp forums regarding pup, why not translate it to the English forums as well? Are we just expected to browser their forums and use google translate or something?

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Originally Posted by Seha

K. I confirm my previous statement.

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You honestly believe Soulsoother is better than a Defensive Wyvern? It's the pet that doesn't try to status removal you *instead* of curing you and can be done as frequently as the DRG can cast, instead of on a 20s timer (depending on active maneuvers). Also, it can status removal every time you perform a WS. There's also the emergency Restoring Breath JA on a 1 minute timer, that can be used regardless of which type of Wyvern you have out and the HP levels of your party.

Sharpshot and Valoredge being worse damage than an Offensive Wyvern may be an exaggeration, but not by much. Wyvern can get Haste, Marches, and other assorted buffs via Empathy (depending on merits), and Empathy doubles as a "steal all your Wyvern's TP and heal it up" JA. Plus, it gets food bonuses from Lancer's Plackart +1/2!

Please understand that we are not ignoring you, gallivanting off in some other thread. We make sure that most if not all of your feedback is passed on to the appropriate person and if it is not something that we can answer directly, we wait until we receive the proper information so that we can comment.

With that said, making attacks on me or any of the community reps, or even the entire team as a whole will not aid your cause nor will it speed up the rate in which we receive answers that we can provide to you.

As to the topic at hand, it has been reported and we do not yet have a comment that we can make.

Now you guys got Camate all mad :(

Almost feel like getting scolded by your parents. I'm guilty of my fare share of "why u no respond", but I can sleep easy i always remind myself and others I know you guys read every thread and even if you don't respond, Our ideas are passed to the Dev team.

You just fortified my belief thoroughly :X

I still love you. But its okay cause its http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL4L4Uv5rf0

Can I come and say told you so? lol.

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Originally Posted by Seha

Can I come and say told you so? lol.

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I would. >_>

Edit: Forums are quiet now.

Thanks for the reply, Camate, that's honestly all that was needed.

Posting our concerns without knowing if those were read, specially after so much time (and i'm not referring just to this thread) can be a bit discouraging. Now, knowing that at least the devs know our concerns, we can only assume they are working on it, or at least they are going to soon.

P.D.: The information regarding maneuvers in the Japanese forums... those would be AWESOME to have in English, honestly ^^U

Well we have been waiting for 5 years for a response Camate, you can understand how that can get our ire up. The development team admitted at a fan fest that this bug was not working as intended, and they did nothing about it, that was 5 years ago.

But thanks for posting and letting us know they are finally looking into it.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

It's mainly a problem I hinted on earlier. How close to a second player should a pet get before it's too much? As is, there's very little penalty to the player for letting a pet die (Usually just waiting a short bit on a timer, BST having a small gil expense if using jugs). PUP, BST, and DRG can be a strong physical presence without their pet around, so it's not like they're completely useless without.

Things like the pet invulnerabilities were dumb even if they were useful or gave "a time to shine" as it were. Ultimately, it's a juggling act between what the player and pet can do, to which if people want the pet to do more, the player needs to do less. However, seeing how the early days of PUP reflected that and certainly hurt its popularity through poor gear and perhaps an incomplete implementation, perhaps too much focus has been given to both aspects that, while many might not realize the potential now, still doesn't mean it's not there. The moment a pet can completely replace a party member, however, is when things go too far. That's probably the biggest issue plaguing AI tweaks. At what point do things shift from partially inspired choices to outright delayed, conditional commands?

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You obviously haven't played BST or PUP. There is no "strong offensive output", unless we're talking about punking some terribly geared gimps.

BST is supposed to be a generic DD but since half the class is stashed away on an NPC not receiving buffs, you wind up losing to classes like SAM, WAR, DRK easily.

Even against comparable 1handers like BLU, THF or NIN, the lack of DW and the reliance on 1hand axes - a slow weapon by nature -leaves BST in an uphill climb to keep up. The class has no offensive JAs so unlike WAR your Rampages are going to suck and subbing WAR means losing out on an offhand.

Now, I say to myself "well, BST isn't supposed to be a good DD duh, that's what the pets for." and then you come to the realization that even if the BST gears completely to buff the pet that current gear leaves much to be desired. Pet haste, attack and acc are in short supply, magian axes are pretty much the largest bonuses you can get and such a build will cripple the offensive output of the master.

Backline BST would give the job a niche if anything (like SMN but more focused on DPS rather than hateless damage) but the current environment leaves the class in limbo.

-The pets are too weak to fight on their own.
-The ability to cure status effects is still tied to the Reward timer.
-Offensive pet gear is a nightmare to acquire.
-Pets get smoked even in low haste scenarios where they have the advantage.

If BST had some JAs to reduce it's offensive output in exchange for increasing the pets then perhaps the class would begin the long march out of irrelevance.

Puppetmaster on the other hand is sold to us as an all-purpose vehicle but again you have limitations holding the class back from being useful, nevermind replacing other classes.

Again because you have a scenario where pets cannot be buffed, they get blown away in any situation where DD are receiving haste. The master gets the buffs but since they are supposed to be a team and your potential is stuck on an NPC, you lose every time.

The mage AI is just laughable, bordering on useless for any practical application. Every time I see a
PUP say that they can backup heal, the ignorance of the classes limitations becomes more apparent.

It's something like me coming into a party on a DD with an NPC fellow and declaring I can backup heal.

It's possible to make the pets too powerful but as it stands right now, the huge penalties make PUP far too unreliable to use in any scenario.

Need a DD? Any purist can do better.
Need a healer/nuker? SCH and RDM are always options when the purists are away.
Need Ranged damage? Sharpshot shoots so slow, you're gonna be tickling the parses.
Need a tank? Valoredge will gladly appear to be turned into a crushed soda can for you.

BST and PUP need some serious retweaking.

Camate translation at your service! Hopefully this is the post you are referring to and hope that there is some good information for you PUPs. :)

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As written in the job concepts the other day, puppetmasters “feel comfortable in almost any type of role thanks to their automatons, but countless hours of research is needed to create the perfect puppet to deal with various and sundry situations.”

“Attachments” are the most crucial thing when it comes to automatons, but there are some that you all might have difficulty confirming the exact effects.

We’d like to introduce the specific effects of those attachments!
(The numbers in brackets are the change in values based on the number of maneuvers.)


Fire attachments
• Strobe: Enmity (+5/+10/+15/+20)
• Tension Spring: Attack (+3%/+6%/+9%/+12%)
• Inhibitor: Store TP (+5/+10/+15/+20)
• Tension Spring II: (+6%/+9%/+12%/+15%)

Ice Attachments
• Mana Booster: Magic recast time (-2/-4/-6/-8)
• Loud Speaker: Magic attack bonus (+5/+10/+15/+20)
• Loud Speaker II: Magic attack bonus (+10/+15/+20/+25)
• Tranquilizer: Magic accuracy (+10/+30/+40/+50)
• Power Cooler：MP cost reduction (-10%/-20%/-35%/-50%)

Wind Attachments
• Accelerator: Evasion (+5/+10/+15/+20)
• Scope：Ranged accuracy (+10/+20/+30/+40)
• Accelerator II：Evasion (+10/+15/+20/+25)
• Turbo Charger：Haste (+5/+15/+20/+25)
• Barrage Turbine：Barrage (0/+2/+3/+4)

Earth Attachments
• Armor Plate： Defense (+10%/+15%/+20%/+25%)
• Armor Plate II： Defense (+20%/+25%/+30%/+35%)

Thunder Attachments
• Stabilizer：Accuracy (+5/+10/+15/+20)
• Stabilizer II：Accuracy (+10/+15/+20/+25)
• Dynamo：Critical hit（+3%/+5%/+7%/+9%）
• Coiler：Double attack (+3%/+10%/+20%/+30%)
• Galvanizer： Counter (+10/+20/+35/+50)

Water Attachments
• Mana Jammer： Magic defense (+10/+20/+30/+40)
• Stealth Screen：Enmity(-10/-20/-30/-40)
• Mana Jammer II: Magic defense (+20/+30/+40/+50)

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What does the Tactical Processor do :3

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Originally Posted by Camate

Please understand that we are not ignoring you, gallivanting off in some other thread. We make sure that most if not all of your feedback is passed on to the appropriate person and if it is not something that we can answer directly, we wait until we receive the proper information so that we can comment.

With that said, making attacks on me or any of the community reps, or even the entire team as a whole will not aid your cause nor will it speed up the rate in which we receive answers that we can provide to you.

As to the topic at hand, it has been reported and we do not yet have a comment that we can make.

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Speaking as one of those crazy RDM melee advocates, it's not hard finding frustration when we can't even quite settle on what we want, have people storming in calling us retards (Perhaps in far more words), and still feel a bit lost on SE's direction despite years and years of fishing for some kind of acknowledgement. As is, even in those moments of lapsed judgment, I don't think any one of us sane folks hold you guys directly responsible for all the preceding has come to inspire over the years. If anything, we're grateful things have evolved beyond blind POL mails, unanswered other-forum feedback, the odd question at a Community Event or Japanese magazine article, eventually to Twitter, and now here. In acting for the betterment of the game, and at times, no doubt "enduring" us, we thank you.

That said, and with other jobs having Manifesto threads here while RDMs have perhaps refrained, all I can humbly request is some prodding on the job's melee future. Is the intent to leave things as is and full-on embrace the vision mentioned in the manifesto, or might there have been an oversight in conveying the message, as some of us feel that enhancing our party members and enfeebling monsters is not something that can be completely separated from swinging a sword if such mechanics were worthwhile and encouraged by dev attention and future growth.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

What does the Tactical Processor do :3

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They can't answer cause they don't know either!

That post is awesome, Camate. I wish there were more like it! Specific information from SE has always been very hard to come by. While I enjoy testing, I don't enjoy spending hours and hours to discover something that I could have been told in 30 seconds by someone in the know.

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Originally Posted by Darkwizardzin

You make it sound like being a community rep is easy.... you have no idea what that job entails. I'm sure there are many... many things he can't just say to the community freely... and (based on what i've seen so far) getting the information to answer some of your questions is easyer said then done. Even if he gets said information it must be a nightmare getting appoval to release it...if he's given it. This person has to take that small amount of information that he is allowed to give and make the community happy with it... as you can clearly see by your (and many others) "demand" for more information that sure as hell isn't easy. Plus he has to pass along ideas from the community back to the devs... and seeing some of the "ideas" that the comminty has given it can't be easy to weed out the bad ideas and pass along the good ones... also im sure there are many other things that needs to be done with this kind of job that we know nothing about.

I know how annoying it must be to wait so long for this information... but making rude comments isn't helping your cause at all... it's hurting it.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Please understand that we are not ignoring you, gallivanting off in some other thread. We make sure that most if not all of your feedback is passed on to the appropriate person and if it is not something that we can answer directly, we wait until we receive the proper information so that we can comment.

With that said, making attacks on me or any of the community reps, or even the entire team as a whole will not aid your cause nor will it speed up the rate in which we receive answers that we can provide to you.

As to the topic at hand, it has been reported and we do not yet have a comment that we can make.

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...it's good to see that SE is showing you guys that they are doing there job the best they can. Now maybe some of the conplants can stop... or at least the rudeness if nothing else.

That is one of the two posts, one that I already translated, but my jp is terrible so i was only able to figure it out due to knowing what the english ones should be and not the second post involving the barrier module.

There was a second post below it involing the barrier module and what causes it to fire off and somethinig about parry.


Speaking of fire, when is the flame cost of heat capacitor getting removed as the devs said it would be back when the attachment was added?

People need to stop freaking out, no matter how good of an idea you think it is, usually it is game breaking and will upset the balance of the game. Usually most ideas are one sided and only are looking to benefit yourself, not the game as a whole.

Ok I tried to find the answer from a developer saying the AI for doing blindna over cure is not the way it is intended, but couldn't find it, but I did find proof that the AI was supposed to be fixed in once instance, and that they said if you equip the damage gauge and put up a light maneuver it would prioritize cure, thus proving it has been bugged/broken since day one and it has been overlooked all this time. This also proves it has been brought to their attention before.

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?page...=1&cId=3168323
1UP: Are there plans to improve Automaton and Adventuring Fellow A.I. because watching them cast Silence at enemies like crabs that don't need silencing is annoying.
MG: The guy in charge of that is not here today, so I'm going to answer for him. I'm not 100 percent positive on this, but the Automaton is supposed to only cast Silence on monsters that would cast magic, and uh, but....
1UP: They don't.
MG: Yeah. I'm not 100 percent positive that it's that way with every single monster. That's the way it's supposed to be designed, but I can see how there might be some who have slipped through the cracks.
1UP: So you'll be looking into it?
MG: Yeah. I will report this to the man in charge, Mr. Matsui.

Ok fellows was fixed, automations not, and this was brought up, and given to the person in charge. This is not how it was intended, and still has not been fixed.

http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewt...hp?f=0&t=14253
Q:Are their any plans to boost the overall effectiveness of an Automaton's AI?
A:No plans for any changes. The AI depends on the master (maneuvers) and the attachments. If the master wants cure prioritized, it can equip a damage gauge and use a light maneuver.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=14529
The AI of puppetmaster's Automaton seems to improperly prioritize some of its actions. Some of them can be canceled by using maneuvers while others cannot. Status ailment healing spells are among some of the actions, as well as drain and aspir. If a puppetmaster is blind and low on hp, the Automaton will choose to relieve the PUP of its blindness rather than cure. Are there any plans to boost the overall effectiveness of the automaton whether it be fixes to current attachments to AI adjustments? (FFXIClopedia)
Kenji Nakamura: The automaton action is depending on the attachment and management by the master. The casting spell mentioned in the question also like a change of pace in these factors so we are not planning to make changes for you. For example, by equipping a damage gauge attachment there are a number of light maneuvers, cures are prioritized. So please try various things, see what can be accomplished. Also, about the automaton, we of course have plans

Proof that they expect having damage gauge equipped and putting up a light maneuver would prioritize cures. it does not, it never has.