DRK Adjustments via Manifesto

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

According to a friend, the "French" Version notes say that DRKS will gain 0 TP per hit for the DMG boost. so its not a "nerf to TP Gain", You literally gain no TP.

Not sure if old news.

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Originally Posted by StingRay104

I like many other drks have worked hard to get my empy (Caladbolg)

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I'm not sure which of these comments I think is funnier. I only say that cause Caladbolg is Carabosse path, by far the easiest empyrean.

Anyway, even with this 0 tp gain thing, lets say you have Caladbolg, say TP to 300, WS, use new ability with lvl 3 aftermath. If it triples damage or something, this would be the way to use it, and it would be pretty amazing. Anything less than this and it's gonna be crap though.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

I'm not sure which of these comments I think is funnier. I only say that cause Caladbolg is Carabosse path, by far the easiest empyrean.

Anyway, even with this 0 tp gain thing, lets say you have Caladbolg, say TP to 300, WS, use new ability with lvl 3 aftermath. If it triples damage or something, this would be the way to use it, and it would be pretty amazing. Anything less than this and it's gonna be crap though.

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Well if the nm is dead within 3 mins sure, but its gonna be kinda hard to get aftermath back after that, unless you give up all your good atmas for regain atmas. Also taking a shot at someone just because the empy he has just so happens to be one of the easier paths is kinda low. Finally after taking your shots you then agree with us by saying anything less than triple damage and it would be crap. You do realize this is SE we are talking about, and therefore it is most likely gonna be a niche ability at best, and probably only suitable for multihit weapons. Plus I have a string suspicion that the gains resistance to souleater ability these nms have is gonna affect this ability as well.

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Originally Posted by StingRay104

taking a shot at someone just because the empy he has just so happens to be one of the easier paths is kinda low

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Is it? I always thought trying to correct misconceptions was a good thing, and didn't make me some horrible person. Next time I'll try and sugar coat my words for you people who can't handle the simple honest truth and need to be told your special and everyone is equal and has valuable opinions.

The TP thing could possibly good, but it would have to substantially boost your DPS.

i.e. cut your TP gain in half, but also increase dps 50%. This would actually be insane during a "zerg" scenario since at 80% haste a weaponskill actually ends up just wasting time (unless it's a very strong one) due to the lost swings in the in time it takes for the animation to perform.

But then DRK's always been a fairly strong Zerging job... we need it to be generally useful not just in 1 brief fight.


Also lol @ Abyssea.

Except for the mobs with all that Souleater resistance.

Again, I'm tired of these situational uses for DRK. Why can't we just be a good job?

For instance, what's the deal with Diabolical eye? We lose 15% of our HP for 20 accuracy? Warriors naturally get a JA that gives them 25 accuracy for a loss of evasion. More gain, less loss, and ours is a merit. Who thought that would be a good idea?

Giving up HP for accuracy is a DRK fitting JA sure, but the boost is nowhere near worth the sacrifice.

You know what I never really understood?

Why do people cling to a job so much?

I leveled MNK first so I guess it's never really been an issue for me but, I mean when the 2hander update came around I leveled WAR, was lvling SAM until it had the slight gimp of it's big 3.

I can understand why the job should be fixed, and in no way am I saying to stop playing it, but I mean what's the real difference between WAR gameplay and DRK gameplay?

WAR: BERSERK BLOODRAGE WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS

DRK: LAST RESORT SOULEATER WS WS WS WS WS WS WS stun WS WS WS WS

I'm pretty certain that you'll have fun no matter what job you play. Personally I have the most fun playing a job that does the best damage at the time- I even leveled DRK in anticipation for the last resort update, knowing that it would be a huge boost.

Again, the job needs more- but until then why not play another job D:

Berserk and blood rage take the same slot.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

Berserk and blood rage take the same slot.

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what is this i don't even

blood rage and warcry take the same slot gtfo

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

You know what I never really understood?

Why do people cling to a job so much?

I leveled MNK first so I guess it's never really been an issue for me but, I mean when the 2hander update came around I leveled WAR, was lvling SAM until it had the slight gimp of it's big 3.

I can understand why the job should be fixed, and in no way am I saying to stop playing it, but I mean what's the real difference between WAR gameplay and DRK gameplay?

WAR: BERSERK BLOODRAGE WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS

DRK: LAST RESORT SOULEATER WS WS WS WS WS WS WS stun WS WS WS WS

I'm pretty certain that you'll have fun no matter what job you play. Personally I have the most fun playing a job that does the best damage at the time- I even leveled DRK in anticipation for the last resort update, knowing that it would be a huge boost.

Again, the job needs more- but until then why not play another job D:

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Some people identify more with certain jobs than others. Then you have the fact that not everyone is willing to look away from a problem and go with an alternative when the job can be fixed with the proper changes. That's not including the crowd that likes a job more and has to deal with said job being inferior, inadequate or downright useless. Perhaps its a cultural difference, or maybe it was the developers pushing the envelope, but I don't think the right answer to a problem is to just find an alternative and live with it while the guys in charge either have their heads in the clouds or something else.

It kind of goes back to a joke we used to make about Barbarians in Diablo II: "Whirlwind spec was the most popular because people liked it, not because it was the only viable option." Was even eventually included in the barbarian facts, yet still holds true.

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Originally Posted by Dauntless

Except for the mobs with all that Souleater resistance.

Again, I'm tired of these situational uses for DRK. Why can't we just be a good job?

For instance, what's the deal with Diabolical eye? We lose 15% of our HP for 20 accuracy? Warriors naturally get a JA that gives them 25 accuracy for a loss of evasion. More gain, less loss, and ours is a merit. Who thought that would be a good idea?

Giving up HP for accuracy is a DRK fitting JA sure, but the boost is nowhere near worth the sacrifice.

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Diabolic Eye is a total joke, and needs to be deleted or re-written.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Rant about why everyone should be the same

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Duelle nailed it. People identify with some jobs more than others. Playing both MNK and WAR makes my stomache hurt for whatever reason. I really just don't like them. Why should I be forced to play one job over another just because SE fucked up on some jobs and overpowered others?

I never said don't play it, I never said everyone should be the same, I was asking a question.

The gameplay is NEARLY the same. DRG gets to jump, DRK gets to stun, while SAM and WAR are essentially the COMPLETE same. Seriously, just one does more damage and looks different. And while you should fight to fix your jobs, I don't see the need to not have all of them leveled just so you can be at the top for whatever SE brings your way. The only real difference between the jobs is 1. Damage output, and 2. aesthetics. They look different.

Did you wear Walahra Turban because it looked good?

I understand why people want a job to get better, I would love DRK to get better because I love the way it looks. Till then I'm playing WAR.

Now if you had spent 5 years obtaining a Mythic or Relic weapon, I can see why you could complain. However, 85% of the people complaining play casually and with Abyssea you can get the best gear in less than a day.

Question: What is it about WAR that could possibly make you sick? MNK I can understand because TP is so slow in comparison, but WAR? Doesn't make sense since you're literally doing the same thing as a DRK would do.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

I never said don't play it, I never said everyone should be the same, I was asking a question.

The gameplay is NEARLY the same. DRG gets to jump, DRK gets to stun, while SAM and WAR are essentially the COMPLETE same. Seriously, just one does more damage and looks different. And while you should fight to fix your jobs, I don't see the need to not have all of them leveled just so you can be at the top for whatever SE brings your way. The only real difference between the jobs is 1. Damage output, and 2. aesthetics. They look different.

Did you wear Walahra Turban because it looked good?

I understand why people want a job to get better, I would love DRK to get better because I love the way it looks. Till then I'm playing WAR.

Now if you had spent 5 years obtaining a Mythic or Relic weapon, I can see why you could complain. However, 85% of the people complaining play casually and with Abyssea you can get the best gear in less than a day.

Question: What is it about WAR that could possibly make you sick? MNK I can understand because TP is so slow in comparison, but WAR? Doesn't make sense since you're literally doing the same thing as a DRK would do.

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So you come on a DRK thread and tell us all to lvl war?

You say that DRK and war are the same?

You are very ignorant about DRK. First off DRK does have mp and that cna lead to several advatages. Absorb TP means faster ws's, Drain I & II means longer life, Dread spikes means mild tanking, and endark means more dmg. Second we are the premier stunners as we are the only job with 2 native stuns. Finally you play DRK and war completely different.

I would never ever say to someone stop complaining and level this job instead because this game is about having fun and if you enjoy the job then your having fun. Now imagine if you enjoy the job but SE is constantly buffing everyone else's jobs to god level and not helping your? Then you'd be upset. Now you have war lvl 90 so obviously your not complaining because you have the mother of all broken jobs at level 90. The rest of us are rather upset at SE because they keep messing up the balance of the game.

I too have mnk lvl 90 and I enjoy playing mnk, however I enjoy PUP and DRK far more, and war just upsets me, even before abyssea getting it to 37 was very annoying. Still if someone was complaining about a job I would never tell them go level PUP or DRK because I like them more or go level mnk and war because they deal the most damage because thats not the issue, the issue is balance.

Don’t fret dark knights! These example adjustments are just that…examples. It doesn’t mean that every single thing is going to be implemented as stated. All of your suggestions and opinions on these concepts will be relayed to the development team and they will of course consider them when actually creating the adjustments to be implemented. Just keep in mind that their concept of dark knight, same as in the past, is that they sacrifice something in return for something else.

But casting magic isn't something that DRKs excel at. It's not the way DRK is played by a majority of the players. I don't have to have it leveled to 90 to know that.

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Originally Posted by Raxiaz

But casting magic isn't something that DRKs excel at. It's not the way DRK is played by a majority of the players. I don't have to have it leveled to 90 to know that.

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You're stuck in the box. You need to step outside and consider how having different damage types can be used to ones advantage. People are getting to stuck on the fact that they could take more damage for the sake of dealing more magical damage but fail to realize that there are instances where maybe magic is the only form of damage possible or an enemies AOE is threatening so it's better to stand back and attack from afar.

You also need to keep in mind DRK does have Occult amen, so what if with this ability in mind, while the first one they consider lowers TP gains, the one where you can deal more magical based damage but take more damage could increase the amount of TP you gain through occult amen. The JA they had in mind says nothing about lowering your offensive power or anything like that but a chance to enhance your magical damage.

Comments like this just don't consider the advantage of being versatile in combat. It's better to be able to do magic and melee damage cause sure while maybe your magic isn't as strong you aren't hindered by mobs with high evasion, that resist melee damage, or use PLD/THF 2hrs multiple times. In all those instances you may find yourself able to perform better by activating the JA that would increase your dmg you take for the ability to dish out more damage with your magic.

Thank you Camate for at least answering us, I can speak for everyone who has posted or read this when I say that any response from SE is welcome. I still really hope that they take more ideas from the DRK forum or at least base ideas from there. Also as stated the magic ability would be a decent idea if used as a stance with the other side being a more physical side, kinda like Hasso/seigan being offensive and defensive but with drk being pure damage just physical and magical. Finally please come up with some new nukes for drk only, ones that play the role of enfeebling an opponent while doing some extra damage.

im all for sacrificing to gain, as long as the gains arent elemental in nature

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Seems that way. Ha.

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Get 100 TP.
Activate Ability
???
Profit.

I think the ??? is obvious.

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Originally Posted by Airget

You're stuck in the box. You need to step outside and consider how having different damage types can be used to ones advantage. People are getting to stuck on the fact that they could take more damage for the sake of dealing more magical damage but fail to realize that there are instances where maybe magic is the only form of damage possible or an enemies AOE is threatening so it's better to stand back and attack from afar.

You also need to keep in mind DRK does have Occult amen, so what if with this ability in mind, while the first one they consider lowers TP gains, the one where you can deal more magical based damage but take more damage could increase the amount of TP you gain through occult amen. The JA they had in mind says nothing about lowering your offensive power or anything like that but a chance to enhance your magical damage.

Comments like this just don't consider the advantage of being versatile in combat. It's better to be able to do magic and melee damage cause sure while maybe your magic isn't as strong you aren't hindered by mobs with high evasion, that resist melee damage, or use PLD/THF 2hrs multiple times. In all those instances you may find yourself able to perform better by activating the JA that would increase your dmg you take for the ability to dish out more damage with your magic.

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One possibility would be allowing Dark Knight to convert any damage into the element of their choice... Effectively allowing them to do things like deal unresisted magic damage based on their STR/ATK by sacrificing TP gain. Would effectively let them bypass high mob defense and deal massive damage in the element of their choosing.

Just an idea

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Originally Posted by Camate

Don’t fret dark knights! These example adjustments are just that…examples. It doesn’t mean that every single thing is going to be implemented as stated. All of your suggestions and opinions on these concepts will be relayed to the development team and they will of course consider them when actually creating the adjustments to be implemented. Just keep in mind that their concept of dark knight, same as in the past, is that they sacrifice something in return for something else.

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I don't think anyone here is opposed to making sacrifices for boosts on DRK. The approach is what is angering people. Sacrificing TP means that you're making the 5-hit builds even more important to DRK play than before, and you're therefore inflating the value of store TP and haste (even more than they already are). Sacrificing TP gain for boosted auto-attacks doesn't do much when the majority of damage is actually through weapon skills (hence all the complaints about the lack of a crit WS for use in abyssea). Buffing elemental magic use is simply a bad idea since you'd need to build DRK use of elemental magic from the ground up due to them not having any native caster traits (unless you're looking to introduce the mechanics that would make this possible through gear, at which I'll be very disappointed). Then you have cast times on spells that are not stun, which so far the developers have not done anything about.

That being said, thanks for trying to reassure the DRK players out there. Now please do me a favor and do the same for the Thief and Red Mage players. DRKs aren't the only ones negatively reacting to this manifesto of yours.

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Originally Posted by StingRay104

So you come on a DRK thread and tell us all to lvl war?

You say that DRK and war are the same?

You are very ignorant about DRK. First off DRK does have mp and that cna lead to several advatages. Absorb TP means faster ws's, Drain I & II means longer life, Dread spikes means mild tanking, and endark means more dmg. Second we are the premier stunners as we are the only job with 2 native stuns. Finally you play DRK and war completely different.

I would never ever say to someone stop complaining and level this job instead because this game is about having fun and if you enjoy the job then your having fun. Now imagine if you enjoy the job but SE is constantly buffing everyone else's jobs to god level and not helping your? Then you'd be upset. Now you have war lvl 90 so obviously your not complaining because you have the mother of all broken jobs at level 90. The rest of us are rather upset at SE because they keep messing up the balance of the game.

I too have mnk lvl 90 and I enjoy playing mnk, however I enjoy PUP and DRK far more, and war just upsets me, even before abyssea getting it to 37 was very annoying. Still if someone was complaining about a job I would never tell them go level PUP or DRK because I like them more or go level mnk and war because they deal the most damage because thats not the issue, the issue is balance.

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I get the feeling you think that absorb tp is worth casting when you are engaged. You should be getting that much tp anyway from normal swings, depending on caladbolg/scythe, the delay of actual spell and afterdelay leads to less tp. I mentioned stuns being the only thing different, and it still is. All 2 handers are just buff, swing, ws. Drk and drg are only different in jump and stun. Drains and spikes are only worth casting out of battle, along with endark.

So essentially people play the job of their choice for the aesthetics. Not the gameplay.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, you can keep playing DRK and DRG and SAM, but having the option of WAR just for abyssea, since its really nothing different, just much better, shouldn't be an insult. Everything is much more level outside anyway.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Don’t fret dark knights! These example adjustments are just that…examples. It doesn’t mean that every single thing is going to be implemented as stated. All of your suggestions and opinions on these concepts will be relayed to the development team and they will of course consider them when actually creating the adjustments to be implemented. Just keep in mind that their concept of dark knight, same as in the past, is that they sacrifice something in return for something else.

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Indeed. I'd so nuke you on my DRK but it would do no damage. As stated, it's mainly the fact it seems a lot of DRK adjustments are gravitating toward our elemental nature when no one harnesses said nature.

What is wrong with all of you =/

You don't even know what the bonus in damage is yet.

yes typically more dmg is done thru WS's than thru melee swings. But this ability is supposed to spike your melee swings. They could very easily surpass WS damage. Especially when used in conjunction with drks newfound superhastability, souleater, high crit rate, and high crit dmg.

And as for a magic boost. Just because you like to play "your" drk like a warrior doesnt mean everyone feels that way. Again you don't even know what your booing at. In exchange for taking more damage per hit, you get an unknown bonus to casting damge and magic WS damage. It could be a million % boost, and you wouldn't know because you /panic boo'd b4 it even hit the ground. But Even at a moderate bonus it could still work wonders with drain II stacked with wat alredy exists. It could bring darks brew potential to competitive. It could be useful in situations where melee WS's don't cut it. And its quite possible drk could get tier IV's or something stronger by 99 and who knows what this skill could bring that potency up too. I don't see any pld's complaining about there recent magic dmg boost... i guess they like 4-7k holy's. Since when is versatility a bad thing? Oh yeh i forgot, since people decided the game should be mindless.

Did u know that with occult accumen gear and about 30 store tp you can get 100 tp return from casting impact? And theres several spots left over for fast cast gear and/or magacc. I know its an expensive casting but how many times have u wasted temp ethers. and elixers in abyssea? stop complaining about how worthless your casting abilities are and start owning them.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

I never said don't play it, I never said everyone should be the same, I was asking a question.

The gameplay is NEARLY the same. DRG gets to jump, DRK gets to stun, while SAM and WAR are essentially the COMPLETE same. Seriously, just one does more damage and looks different. And while you should fight to fix your jobs, I don't see the need to not have all of them leveled just so you can be at the top for whatever SE brings your way. The only real difference between the jobs is 1. Damage output, and 2. aesthetics. They look different.

Did you wear Walahra Turban because it looked good?

I understand why people want a job to get better, I would love DRK to get better because I love the way it looks. Till then I'm playing WAR.

Now if you had spent 5 years obtaining a Mythic or Relic weapon, I can see why you could complain. However, 85% of the people complaining play casually and with Abyssea you can get the best gear in less than a day.

Question: What is it about WAR that could possibly make you sick? MNK I can understand because TP is so slow in comparison, but WAR? Doesn't make sense since you're literally doing the same thing as a DRK would do.

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Alright, so your point is that even if we like the job, since it's been underdeveloped and nerfed we should simply play the popular job even if we don't like it?

I spent roughly 2 years getting DRK to 75 when I first started playing and a couple months getting WAR to 75 when ToAU came out. I know the ins and outs of DRK and it is in no way the same as WAR. At least, it wasn't designed to be.

Naturally less strong than Warriors, we use Dark Magic and sacrifice HP and defense to equip ourselves with strength far beyond that of the natural strength of Warriors for high spike numbers. We use absorb spells that significantly increases our damage for a short period of time. We have to use perfect timing to stun mobs with deadly TP moves. We were naturally weaker than Warriors, but we were versatile and able to dish out more spike damage at will.

Now? Absorb spells do nothing. Everything is resistant to Souleater. Dark Magic is easily resisted, and SE wants to throw elemental magic at us?

Perfect example: Warrior in Besieged in full AF3+2 was spamming Ukko's Fury for 4-6k. DRK also in full AF3+2 was using Quietus and I didn't see him hit anything higher than 3k. With Souleater. Why the hell is that fair?

My point is this: DD's in general used to be similar, and they all had their ups and downs. Some were better than others, but by no huge margin. Now it's war/mnk or gtfo, and I despise that.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Just keep in mind that their concept of dark knight, same as in the past, is that they sacrifice something in return for something else.

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Like sacrificing being a good DD in exchange for looking cool?

Sorry, had to go there.

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Originally Posted by Dauntless

My point is this: DD's in general used to be similar, and they all had their ups and downs. Some were better than others, but by no huge margin. Now it's war/mnk or gtfo, and I despise that.

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I agree, it's not good that the game is that way. However there will ALWAYS be a better job, perfect balance is completely impossible. It's not SE's job to make everyone equal, but to make them unique in their role so much that they are desired, and that's where the problem is. WAR: top DD, no defense. MNK: powerful DD, high defense. PLD: No DD, top defense. DRK: hi guyz i have magic but am gonna play like a war anyway, and if you dare tell me to cast magic I WILL EAT YOUR BRAINS.

That's the issue: as long as DRK maximizes damage in the same way as WAR, DRG, and SAM, the jobs will completely blend in to each other and there will always be a clear winner. It was RNG, it was SAM, now it's WAR.

I think that SE realizes this, and that's why they are trying to bring both DRK and DRG in different directions (DRG into a more enmity control position, which would make it prime for tank and spank fights considering it's accuracy.)

I don't think SE is going about changing DRK in the right way though, and it's very difficult to see how to fix it. Although like I have suggested in the past I think an ability where DRK could swing during casting and not be dragged down by the delay after cast, then that would really make DRK's magical capabilities shine while keeping the DD side happy. (Animation wise the DRK could still look like he's casting and his/her weapon could fly like an animated weapon. Too grandiose? See: Retribution. So no telling me that's the drawback. )

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

I agree, it's not good that the game is that way. However there will ALWAYS be a better job, perfect balance is completely impossible. It's not SE's job to make everyone equal, but to make them unique in their role so much that they are desired, and that's where the problem is. WAR: top DD, no defense. MNK: powerful DD, high defense. PLD: No DD, top defense. DRK: hi guyz i have magic but am gonna play like a war anyway, and if you dare tell me to cast magic I WILL EAT YOUR BRAINS.

That's the issue: as long as DRK maximizes damage in the same way as WAR, DRG, and SAM, the jobs will completely blend in to each other and there will always be a clear winner. It was RNG, it was SAM, now it's WAR.

I think that SE realizes this, and that's why they are trying to bring both DRK and DRG in different directions (DRG into a more enmity control position, which would make it prime for tank and spank fights considering it's accuracy.)

I don't think SE is going about changing DRK in the right way though, and it's very difficult to see how to fix it. Although like I have suggested in the past I think an ability where DRK could swing during casting and not be dragged down by the delay after cast, then that would really make DRK's magical capabilities shine while keeping the DD side happy.

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It's not that we don't like to cast magic. It's that our elemental magic isn't worth the time nor mp and the dark magic is ineffective and easily resisted.

Give us some effective magic and we sure as hell will use it. It's not that we want to play like warriors, it's that any other style of playing is inefficient since our casting side is horribly lacking.

When I played DRK, the absorbs and drains were worth using. Now? Not at all. Not even close.

The Absorb spells either need a buff or an Absorb II series that doesn't decay and gives a larger boost. Also, seeing as we're the first job to get most dark magic spells, I wouldn't see it too farfetched for us to get Bio III. Buffing drain or giving us a 3rd drain would be welcome because the drains have become mostly ineffective.

I would also LOVE to see a spell that converts a mobs HP to your MP. Like Aspir, but instead of draining MP it drains HP. Due to the lack of mobs actually having MP, aspir is often ineffective. With this spell, you could drain MP on any mob. I don't see any way this could be broken.

As well as this, making Dread Spikes weaker, lengthening it's effect, and lowering its casting time would be lovely because as is, it's to be casted before a fight and it lasts for a few seconds then you're not to use it again until the next fight thanks to the long casting time preventing you from having any hopes of recasting it during a fight.

These are just some magic related suggestions off the top of my head. Notice how they're all oriented towards dark magic. That's because we're DARK KNIGHTS. Dark Magic is our forte, and we're lacking in it. I don't want more elemental magic, I need Dark magic. I'm fairly certain most DRKs will agree.

Edit: Being able to swing during casting would be welcome. It's a great idea.

Swing during casting for darks. More than reasonable fix.

We get Drain 1 at level 10. Why shouldn't we get at least Drain 3 by level 99?

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Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung

Swing during casting for darks. More than reasonable fix.

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Yea, it always amazes me how SE can overlook that simple solution.

It is also the reason I claim SMN is better designed for melee than DRK is. You trigger a BP, which is an instant JA, then you keep on swinging. If SMN and DRK shared stats and weapons, but differed in magic, SMN would come out top. DRK would benefit greatly from not being stuck in casting animation.

I'd make a topic about it on the DRK forums, but I've never seen a job-specific forum get very much attention. It'd probably get more views here in general, but I don't like to be the guy posting about something in general that has it's own forum section.

Wow I woke up and the thread has completely lost it. Seriously what the hell happened here. SMN better than DRK at melee, swing while casting the simple fix, and leonlionheart is still thinking he knows about DRK, this is unreal.

For those of you who don't know let me re-educate you on DRK. PLD and DRK are 2 sides of the same coin, one deals in holy magic the other in arcane magic. One deals in defense the other in attack. In essence PLD is supposed to be the ultimate shield, and DRK the ultimate blade. Now we also have access to magic, and we use this magic to help us achieve our respected roles, for instance pld has flash for hate control, cures and reprisal for longevity, and phalanx, protect and shell for defense. DRK however has a different way of using its magic, it takes from its enemy to make himself stronger. Drain and aspir are self explained, but others are dread spikes (able to drain the damage one receives to 1/2 your current total hp from attacker), Absorb stat spells, and of course Absorb TP (it really does need its own category cuz not everything always has tp). DRK also has 3 other very useful spells called sleep, endark and stun. Aside from these job enhancing spells these 2 jobs have other spells that have very limited to no use, for instance PLD has the banish line of spells which are useless given the degree pld can use them. They also have enlight and holy, altho enlight could add some more damage to pld its effect is minimal and holy on pld has only 1 use, yellow proc. DRK also has spells like that, being the tier 1-3 nukes. Meant for use on blm but given to drk just because SE had no other idea for spells and felt it would be nice to give them something (Ok originally SE had a lot of stock put into SC/MB and DRK was supposed to utilize that for additional damage but nowadays that's just too much of a hassle as the damage isn't worth the time or the mp). Now some of your are saying "What about bio?" Well thats simple, mostly people want the def down from Dia and Bio and Dia cancel each other out, so in an alliance situation Dia is used, and for soloing I can't Imagine a DRK wanting to keep a dot on something just incase they need to sleep it so therefore bio is kinda useless. Poison is an interesting spell, for one its intended purpose is useless as it doesn't help an pretty much all applications, but the spell itself is a very good way to pull mobs so that you don't waste stun.

Now for all you wars out there you really have lost what your job is supposed to be. War was the original tank job but it was always intended that PLD replace it in this role, so war was the all purpose melee. You have both strong offensive and defensive capabilities, berserk and defender, warcry and retaliation. Now SE also made sure that you would hold your own as a front liner with double attack, attack bonus, crit attack bonus and fencer, but they also gave you some defensive traits also 2 tiers of def bonus, shield defense, shield mastery and resist virus (I kno rite). Now DRK on the other hand has only offensive capabilities, everything it does is for pure damage, even its 1 semi defensive spell Dread Spikes, yet you all are saying war is supposed to be king of the mountain on damage. We have tier 5 attack bonus, LR, souleater, and critical attack bonus. We can cap attack so easily but that doesn't matter in this game. SE really doesn't know what its doing atm and we DRK's are upset that we are constantly being shoved out of our jobs spot, we are supposed to be the highest damage you'll ever see, but we kill oursleves to do that. Its ultimate physical power at a cost, thats our niche.

Now to address those that I called out. First and foremost, smn will never be as good of a melee as DRK, not now, not ever, and I feel sorry for anyone who thinks otherwise. As for the subtle point hidden in your post see the next response.

As for the melee while casting fix, SE has said, and the post is still easy to find, that a complete rework of the enmity systems is not possible. Now if SE can't do something as simple as implement a enmity change/fix, then how the hell do you expect them to implement this? As for it being a simple fix, let me cruch that notion right now, there are no easy fixes for drk atm, we need several fixes (arguably each one being somewhat easy) and until we get that and our balance is restored then there will continue to be problems.

Leonlionheart. Please understand that you know nothing about how a DRK plays. Now you are a war and you enjoy war and there is nothing wrong with that so please leave the DRKs issues to the DRKs and we will leave the wars issues to the wars. However in response to your previous post, yes people are tired of not getting the interaction with the devs that they were promised so everything has seemed to been shifted to the general section for some answers. Interestingly enough according to the job forums, they were created so that players (no mention of the devs) can discuss their jobs and ideas to fix them, but the general section is for contact with the devs. I know and I agree it should be in the job specific forums but hey if SE wants it in general I guess we posting in general now for some answers.

Playing DRK again as a lowbie I realize again what SE had in mind for DRK. On no other lowbie job can I dish out weaponskills for 200 (Level 10), but I have the defense of a kitten. It seems as time went on, SE lost that vision and here we are. We still have the defense of a kitten, but now we also have the strength of a dead chicken.

The "Absorb" series of spells is in many ways the heart and soul, as morbid as they are, of the job. Dark Knight can absorb just about anything; base stats, HP, MP, TP, and Accuracy. And yet the ability to absorb Attack is missing. Dark Knight is defined by it's Attack stat as much as anything else; it's even a Job Trait. So what could be more essential to the job than to combine Absorbing with the Attack stat? It's also worth considering Absorbing the enemy's Evasion and Defense. Perhaps a super spell that absorbs several things at once? Similar to the effect of the Weapon Skill "Full Break."

Lots of people (Myself included) have suggested absorb att, and it really should be made a spell, as well as the other stats not mentioned, def, eva, Matt, and Mdef. Another popular idea is DRK only nukes that have status effects on them, kinda like a mini impact (which has all base stats down 20%) except more mp proficient. It would be cool to have some other ideas of spells that went along these lines but it also needs to consider the DRK's main role, killing things.

Learn to adapt to play the job at its max.

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Originally Posted by Dauntless

Playing DRK again as a lowbie I realize again what SE had in mind for DRK. On no other lowbie job can I dish out weaponskills for 200 (Level 10), but I have the defense of a kitten. It seems as time went on, SE lost that vision and here we are. We still have the defense of a kitten, but now we also have the strength of a dead chicken.

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I don't know. I think most armors still are PLD/WAR/DRK, so you got the defense of a Paladin, and the strength of a dead chicken. Naturally, defense is pretty pointless and useless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Unctgtg

Learn to adapt to play the job at its max.

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Yeah, that's the problem. Its "max" is pathetic. The way DRK is right now, there really is nothing to adapt to.

StingRay104

wut

1: I been saying that about DRK all this time. The only problem is none of those spells are worth casting. If you cast Absorb-anything other than tp then you are severely gimping your DRK. Absorb-Accuracy maybe if you have a NIN or DNC tank. Dread Spikes is pre-battle. Drains are a destruction of your DPS, unless you absolutely need them for your HP. So I ask, how in hell is swinging while casting a bad idea? It lets you be the melee you always wanted, while being the arcane master you always wanted.

2: WAR hasn't been intended for tank capabilities since a very long time ago. Everything past level 25(defender) should lead you to believe that WAR is nothing other than an amazing DD. Seriously, access to 2 of the top WS (Rampage and Raging Rush) along with Double Attack makes WAR what it is. Not to mention Warcry, Berserk, and the famous Steel Cyclone + Warrior's Charge + SA. You'd notice this when you realize that WAR gets pummeled by everything. DRK is a more survivable tank than WAR is.

You have to be completely ignorant to say that WAR could possibly be intended for tank after a certain point. Provoke and Defender are nice, but that's all they were, and they aren't anymore. Neither of them are even close to useful at this point.

Enmity reworking is not possible because it would break the way the game is played, and it would break levels 1~75 where PLD or NIN, or anyone else who wants to tank really, have no real issues keeping hate in most situations. It's not a coding problem iirc. Not an implementation problem, though there may be some issues with that, rather than a battle system breaking problem.

Swinging while casting for one job isn't really a complete reworking of the battle system, now is it?

StingRay104 please understand that you know nothing of how damage is dealt. It's like there are no real players in the DRK player base, just fanboys who think that their spells can do something as they are now. They are nice, but only absorb-TP and dread spikes, and only while disengaged. (and obviously stun and, though rarely, sleep.)

So lemme get this straight, war/pld/drk all have access to the super heavy gear, and the good -dmg gear, war also sports the shield abilities that pld has, and war also gets 2 tiers of defense + and defender yet a drk is a better tank than a DRK?

Sounds silly now doesn't it, I thought I explained it very well when I said DRK's only defensive ability was dread spikes, yet this one thing apparently negates all the defensive abilities war has because you say so. Sure you probably don't want to use this stuff after all your a war all you do is berserk blood rage ws ws ws ws ws ws, to hell with anything else right?

I also explained quite clearly why melee while casting wouldn't work because it is along those same lines as the enmity cap problem, and SE specifically said that they couldn't do that due to issues involving the game. Also it won't change the fact that our nukes and yes you were right our absorbs atm aren't worth casting, which is one of the hot topics we DRKs keep bringing up for SE to fix (our absorbs not nukes, too much mp to consider using).

Btw I know a lot more about DRK than you and I think its sad that someone who just joins jobs because they are the new hot damage jobs is pretty pathetic. I like to fully utilize all the jobs capabilities, example when I play mnk I don't just impetus ws ws ws ws, I use all those job abilities, counterstance, boost, focus, dodge, chakra, chi blast, and of course perfect counter. I take full advantage of my jobs capabilities and not just do what all the cool kids are doing. As for my knowledge of damage, I know lots about damage, for instance until the big souleater nerf DRK was the king of damage thanks to KC zergs. Altho magic can be useful it has never been effective part of DRKs repitoire which is why we DRKs have been asking SE to stop trying to push all this increase elemental bs on us.

Finally once again I'm gonna say it clearly, you know nothing about DRK, please leave your misconceptions about the job somewhere else and go back to spamming your ws's on war. Shame really if you were really all about the ws's you'd probably play sam, but now sam is going back to sc master.