Thoughts on the FFXI Job Adjustment Manifesto

Yeah I should have read it before commenting on it. My bad.

EDIT: Thinking further on this, wouldn't the only spells effected by this be Drain and Aspir? Possibly the initial Damage of Bio. Has anyone noticed a decreased duration of sleep/bind gravity when AoE'd?

I'm amazed they're actually considering Manifestation for Elemental Magic, I always figured there was a very good reason why they didn't do it. Kind of begs the question why are they making Merton Dark Magic when we'll be able to Manifestation Elemental.

I'm going to have to try Immanence + Manifestation nukes when (if) they actually do this.

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Originally Posted by Raksha

Yeah I should have read it before commenting on it. My bad.

EDIT: Thinking further on this, wouldn't the only spells effected by this be Drain and Aspir? Possibly the initial Damage of Bio. Has anyone noticed a decreased duration of sleep/bind gravity when AoE'd?

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In 4 years never. My guess is it's mistranslated or poorly worded, and was thinking it was supposed to mean what you said Raksha. I'm responding to that thread and will put it in there. A lot of those responses don't make sense :(

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Originally Posted by Sotek

I'm amazed they're actually considering Manifestation for Elemental Magic, I always figured there was a very good reason why they didn't do it. Kind of begs the question why are they making Merton Dark Magic when we'll be able to Manifestation Elemental.

I'm going to have to try Immanence + Manifestation nukes when (if) they actually do this.

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Haha that would rock. Sadly so much of what I've enjoyed on SCH the past year is stuff that just looks or sounds cool but doesn't have any real use to a group. But, that disappointment might just be alleviated for a week or so if they let me create 10 fusion animations at once!

Raksha, you were just commenting on what it should have said. I went back and looked at the original JP post by Mocchi and I think the English has a translation error. It should say, "but the effects of spells that are turned into AoE by Manifestation are not weakened, so adjustments to maintain [that] balance would also be necessary.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

Raksha, you were just commenting on what it should have said. I went back and looked at the original JP post by Mocchi and I think the English has a translation error. It should say, "but the effects of spells that are turned into AoE by Manifestation are not weakened, so adjustments to maintain [that] balance would also be necessary.

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lol that does make a lot more sense!

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

Raksha, you were just commenting on what it should have said. I went back and looked at the original JP post by Mocchi and I think the English has a translation error. It should say, "but the effects of spells that are turned into AoE by Manifestation are not weakened, so adjustments to maintain [that] balance would also be necessary.

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lol thanks for doing that, I feel better now.

Third and final part of the SCH notes were posted by Mocchi. I assume the English translation will be up later this afternoon. I have to run to a meeting, but I just had to post and say that I was a bit disappointed. It was more so with the questions than the answers. No mention of storm spells, helices, Aldoquium or the Animus spells.

The first question was asking for Cure V and the answer wasn't yes or no. They did say that there are thinking about a way to improve our support ability that is different from WHM. It could be stronger Regen effects, but they aren't sure. Mocchi did point out that it does not mean that they will not add Cure V later. For now they are looking at different adjustments and if after testing those they decide to add a higher tier cure spell they will.

Someone also asked for spells to lower a mob's TP and evasion. There are plans to add a higher tier Gravity spell but I have to assume that will be RDM exclusive. They are also examining magic subtle blow effect. (I don't know if that means magic to grant subtle blow [but we already have Auspice] or a way to lower TP given by magic spells.)

There were also requests for Reraise working with Accession, but they said that would require a lot of testing. There is also something about a magic crit spell and a request for a spell to make monsters to be intimidated {could be a mistranslation on my part. I'm not sure what ひるむ means in this context} by a PC's pet . . . Um, seriously?? The response was that would be an adjustment not for SCH but for pet jobs themselves. DUH!

All in all, not that much to be excited about. Part 1 left me with a bit of hope. Part 2 was ok and Part 3 is a bit disappointing. Let's hope something was lost in my translation and that better notes await!

You got 3 replies to Scholar where most jobs got 0. I wouldn't worry, looks like Scholar has resumed its throne as one of SE"s favorite jobs.

Only numbers will tell that. Everything mentioned in posts 1 and 2 could be great or turn into the 75-90 problem of all hype and no substance.

Thanks again Sasaraixx. I agree it's the requests they're picking again that are disappointing, as well as the responses this time. Storms, animus, adloquium, helices seem like given topics for a dev post on spells and it turns out to focus on Cure V, Reraise and a spell to make a mob intimidated by pets? lol

Thanks, Sasaraixx.

You know what? I'm actually a bit upset at SE for not looking at all the English job forums, and only reply the questions made by Japanese in the Japanese JOB forums. So far, if we want to have anything replied to about our jobs in English, the only place to do it is in the General forums. So, basically, SE is asking us to make offtopic posts because of their ignoring of the English job forums. Good job, SE! -_-

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Originally Posted by Siiri

You got 3 replies to Scholar where most jobs got 0. I wouldn't worry, looks like Scholar has resumed its throne as one of SE"s favorite jobs.

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I think the fact that it took 3 posts to address the concerns about SCH is more indicative of the current state of the job than any favoritism on SE's part. And to be fair, I'm sure the devs will be making their way through all of the jobs. The manifesto was only posted 2 weeks ago. Give them some time.

And as for the questions chosen, I don't know where they come from. The reactions from some of the JP posters were exactly the same. Namely, "Um . . .?"

We will just have to wait and see. They are obviously still in the planning/testing phase for a lot of these ideas so it's hard to know what exactly will happen. (Unlike today's DRK notes that mentioned a planned ability for DRK in the next Version Update.)

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And as for the questions chosen, I don't know where they come from. The reactions from some of the JP posters were exactly the same. Namely, "Um . . .?"

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I'm guessing whoever passed on some of these ideas has mixed up somewhere along the lines. Maybe Beastmasters asked for an ability to make their pets intimidate a target and that got shuffled into the Scholar suggestions pile somehow. Maybe that's how Scholar got Libra when practically every other job in the game is more suited to it, really it should have been a Thief ability.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

You got 3 replies to Scholar where most jobs got 0. I wouldn't worry, looks like Scholar has resumed its throne as one of SE"s favorite jobs.

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To be fair maybe two or three of those questions were things that we actually wanted an answer to, and a lot of questions still haven't been answered. So really they wasted a lot of time to make three posts when they could've made half of one.

First post in forums... So... Here goes.

Scholar is my main. I refuse to take WHM or BLM past 55 for now. Maybe later, but... not now...

To the point:

Modus Veritas: I concur with everyone's agreement. Take it back to better accuracy. Also, make it either stack MULTIPLICITAVELY or not at all. (For those non-scholastic [hehee], I mean make MV multiply the damage by each scholar who uses it. Effectively, it makes one helix per scholar, and currently, only one helix PERIOD can be active at a time right? Just make MV a tool that lets the damage equal the same as each scholar having a helix on the mob.)

Libra: Waste of a JA. Those of you who posted about changing Libra to determine weakness? Kind of an iffy subject. If you let Libra determine, for example, Abyssea weakness. It takes away from the work people put into downing the 9 Abyssea bosses for the Abyssite of Discernment. Who would need it? Just Libra and forget it. You'd trigger every time. Part of the fun of Abyssea is working the triggers. On the note of mob damage weakness, I'm pretty sure we've all memorized what each mob is weak to... Colibri are weak to ICE and PIERCING [but strangely seem to have a 95% resistance to magic]. Skeletons are weak to LIGHT and BLUNT. School age knowledge that stuff. If you DON'T know a mobs weakness already, then you've either not really bothered with it or you burned your character to 90 in Abyssea and let others do the work. Not to mention... There's websites out there that tell you weaknesses. SOMEONE is bound to know. SOMEONE is that hardcore. Always.

White Magic: Scholars definitely need a better heal. Cure IV without any stratagems does around 370-430ish depending on your gear. Look at monks. They have 3300+HP in Abyssea now. you'd have to cast Cure IV at least EIGHT TIMES if they were in CRITICAL status. Not to mention, they get hit DURING the cast time of the spell, so unless you Quicken Magic 100% of the time, you're in a world of hurt (not to mention that monk!) E
-Enhancements: Adloquium needs either tweaked to +2 or +3, or add tiers to it while lowering the level requirement of the original. There were regain items for level 75, possible lower (dunno). I would say 60 is a decent level for Adloquium I to be at. Far fetched hear, but... White Mage in Abyssea got a huge focus on elemental resistances. Nothing for status resistances. Maybe give scholars some IMPROVED bar-status spells. Ever fought Yilbegan? Alliance + outside alliance BREAK. Without fast reaction after break wore, dead. Improved status resistances would be nice, but not necessarily vital.
-Light: Far fetched, but... Maybe some higher level light elemental spells. Could be under Divine, could be Elemental, who knows? Who cares? Not essential, but it would be nice if at least ONE job (mainly Scholar, since Paladins and White Mages can't "nuke" EFFICIENTLY while still maintaining their main role) got some more depth into Light elemental magic.
-Storms: Definitely add new tiers to the Storm series. As someone mentioned... Give job traits IN ADDITION to the stats to the Storm II spells. Maybe an increase of +12/+6(Void).

Black Magic: NEEDS MORE WORK. WHAT IS GOING ON HERE!!! Personally... 90 Scholar. In a party, I watched the numbers. Me and a Black Mage. Aero V. NEITHER OF US USED ASCETIC POTION. I had BETTER GEAR THAN HE DID. I HAD BETTER ATMA THAN HE DID. THIS DUDE WAS JUST STARTING ABYSSEA. I used Ebullience. I had WAY better gear than he did. He was in base level Goetia. +0 you might say. Even Teal was better than what he had. His Aero V still stomped mine. Completely. BROKEN. MESSED UP. If my gear/atma/MAB is greater than someone else, AND ON TOP OF IT I add another 20% from Ebullience, I had well better hit harder than him. But I don't. I can't. Why? Because "Black Mages do Black Magic best." BLM gets tier II MAB trait. 20%. SCH? 10%. SCH adds Ebullience. Another 20% OFF OF THE RESULT of that. so roughly scholar gets 32%. At least 12% MORE than BLM BASE. Plus, with my gear better than his, I had roughly 25 more MAB than him BASE. AND ON TOP OF THAT. With ATMA, I had the +50MAB Atma. that's MINIMUM of 75% more damage. That's me. A scholar. NOT EVEN REACHING MAB cap (Ebullience doesn't count towards it), and the BLM had less than HALF of my MAB BASE. I should have done MORE damage with Aero V than HE did. And neither of us resisted BTW. Go figure? There's more to it than meets the eye. Unless I get resisted 100% of the time with Capped + 8/8 merit? Not likely. Fortune does not smile upon Scholars in the face of damage. FIX it.
-Helices: Interesting concept of DoT. And it failed. Highest I've done is 320/tick, and that's with every piece of gear with INT/MAB, appropriate weather, ascetic potion, proper Atma, everything. Divide that by nine. that's 35.55 DPS. I've seen more DPS from Regurgitate. Unless the helix is what pulls the mob, then it's not worth it. Add Tier II helices or add another spell set to replace them.

The Middle Path: Scholars were intended to walk that fine line between light and dark. They've changed from being STRATEGISTS, to ENMITY CONTROL, to who knows what. Scholar has no DEFINED role anymore. Same with Red Mage. Red Mage is the master enfeebler, but most NM's are immune, or are so succeptible a war/(mage) could enfeeble them. Red Mage lost it's job as well (that's another story I have for a different day :o). Scholar needs to be defined. Be it, the top ENHANCER (since there is none), or maybe put it at 10% less effective than WHM and BLM, but not the 50% or lower like it is now. Scholar has so much untapped, waiting potential.

Misc Suggestions:
1. Someone mention before dual element spells.
a. Maybe something like Frostfire? (Yes, WoW has it. Don't be retarded.)
b. Maybe something to open and close LIGHT and DARKNESS exclusively?
Different possibilities await for opening/closing skillchains of different levels. Scholar is the only one that can do it at the moment with spells, why not expand upon it?
2. A more enhancing roll. Another someone's idea that I loved. Let Scholar be the ONE job that gets ALLIANCE wide skills for buffing or something. Most groups only have one scholar at a time anyways, why not put that to good use? One character focusing on keeping an alliance buffed with Prot/Shell, Aldoquium, etc. Instead of having your WHM stop in the middle of a fight just to rebuff everyone while the tank takes chunks of damage. Also, increase scholar's Light Arts enhancing cap to A- or A+. WHM gets healing, BLM gets Elemental, DRK gets Dark, RDM, gets Enfeeble... screw divine. Divine sucks. But. There's no job with Enhancing. More enhancing spells? I PERSONALLY as a 90 scholar wouldn't mind just sitting back and buffing. Could be like a Bard, but with different effects. Kind of a bard/corsair fusion. Alliance wide refresh, attack speed, resistances. Sheesh, even Corsairs can out-dps a Scholar. [Technically speaking, traditional Scholars, or, as they were TRADITIONALLY referred to as, tacticians, were non-combatants. Scholar could be that ONE non-combatant job.]
3. LOWER LEVEL SCHOLARS!!! PLEASE add some unique scholar spells to lower levels. The level gaps between the elementals and the light arts spells is too drastic. It's like leveling with two sub jobs and no main job.

Anywho, nuff sed. Said my gripe. I hope they fix Scholar soon...

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Originally Posted by Zanobi

Black Magic: NEEDS MORE WORK. WHAT IS GOING ON HERE!!! Personally... 90 Scholar. In a party, I watched the numbers. Me and a Black Mage. Aero V. NEITHER OF US USED ASCETIC POTION. I had BETTER GEAR THAN HE DID. I HAD BETTER ATMA THAN HE DID. THIS DUDE WAS JUST STARTING ABYSSEA. I used Ebullience. I had WAY better gear than he did. He was in base level Goetia. +0 you might say. Even Teal was better than what he had. His Aero V still stomped mine. Completely. BROKEN. MESSED UP. If my gear/atma/MAB is greater than someone else, AND ON TOP OF IT I add another 20% from Ebullience, I had well better hit harder than him. But I don't. I can't. Why? Because "Black Mages do Black Magic best." BLM gets tier II MAB trait. 20%. SCH? 10%. SCH adds Ebullience. Another 20% OFF OF THE RESULT of that. so roughly scholar gets 32%. At least 12% MORE than BLM BASE. Plus, with my gear better than his, I had roughly 25 more MAB than him BASE. AND ON TOP OF THAT. With ATMA, I had the +50MAB Atma. that's MINIMUM of 75% more damage. That's me. A scholar. NOT EVEN REACHING MAB cap (Ebullience doesn't count towards it), and the BLM had less than HALF of my MAB BASE. I should have done MORE damage with Aero V than HE did. And neither of us resisted BTW. Go figure? There's more to it than meets the eye. Unless I get resisted 100% of the time with Capped + 8/8 merit? Not likely. Fortune does not smile upon Scholars in the face of damage. FIX it.

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Can't believe this. Only good BLMs surpass my Aero Vs with theirs, and I surpass many okay BLM Blizzard Vs with my own Aero Vs. Either the BLM was better than you said, you are not as good as you say, or you just witnessed ONE instance of a resist in your nuke and though it was the norm.

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-Helices: Interesting concept of DoT. And it failed. Highest I've done is 320/tick, and that's with every piece of gear with INT/MAB, appropriate weather, ascetic potion, proper Atma, everything. Divide that by nine. that's 35.55 DPS. I've seen more DPS from Regurgitate. Unless the helix is what pulls the mob, then it's not worth it. Add Tier II helices or add another spell set to replace them.

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I've done 600+ Helices several times. And not only to trash mobs, but to NMs too. The normal amount for NMs ranges from 200 to 400. I don't know what set you have for Helices, but it isn't very good.

And I'm not even that pimped out, I'm missing most +2 pieces and only have the wind +2 magian staff.

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Originally Posted by Zanobi

That's me. A scholar. NOT EVEN REACHING MAB cap (Ebullience doesn't count towards it), and the BLM had less than HALF of my MAB BASE.

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Where'd you get your info about an MAB cap?

I don't believe there is a MAB cap.

The one thing he was right about is that scholar is suffering from SE trying to change it's job description. At 75 sch was a competitor for blm on single target nuking damage, with the flexability that if it completely changed roles it could do some moderate healing via phalanx, stoneskin and cure 4. It seems SE decided that they wanted blm's to pull away in single target nuking, but they haven't given scholar anything to fill the huge gap they left in job utility.

If they don't find something to give it in the next 9 levels scholar is going to turn into lolsch, which will make me sad. :(

I don't necessarilly need to be the highest nuker out there, I don't screenshot damage for epeen, but I want to be a valuable asset to a party. We're getting decent single target nukes, but it would be nice to be able to kick up the damage of people around us. The regain spell was kind of in line with that theme, even though it was underwhelming. I still like the idea of being able to open up level 3 skillchains with a single spell (or having dual element spells, however you want to say it) that will allow us to work with melee to push out more damage (skill chain partner on demand!). Tier 2 storm spells so we can increase the damage of other mages.

They just need to decide what they want us to do, because they've been really indecisive for 15 levels so far.

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Originally Posted by Zanobi

-Helices: Interesting concept of DoT. And it failed. Highest I've done is 320/tick, and that's with every piece of gear with INT/MAB, appropriate weather, ascetic potion, proper Atma, everything. Divide that by nine. that's 35.55 DPS. I've seen more DPS from Regurgitate. Unless the helix is what pulls the mob, then it's not worth it. Add Tier II helices or add another spell set to replace them.

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Try nuking flans, it's good for your e-peen (Also immanence is fun):

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3...1224005337.png
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/999...0130135659.png
http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/8...0702222804.png
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/2...1219144838.png
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/509...1224125726.png
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/723...0411213235.png

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Originally Posted by Ahrana

I don't believe there is a MAB cap.

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Me neither.

There isn't MAB cap, or if there is, it can't be reached even with a brew.

And BTW, for epeen screenshots... Magic bursting Qutrubs is the way to go! :P

And I have another request, even though it's minor at best. I think scholars (and black mages) should be given access to the weaponskills that have been set aside for whm, pld, smn and mnk. It's annoying to have to sub white mage to have access to cataclysm, and not being able to hit staff red triggers as scholar is somewhat insulting.

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Originally Posted by TimeMage

And BTW, for epeen screenshots... Magic bursting Qutrubs is the way to go! :P

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Hmmmmmmmmmmm

I'll just leave this here.

Instead of Merton, that seems just like another helix spell, you could add a spell more unique for the 2h.
Scholar's are good at controling the weather and could exploit this knowledge to cause a "Disaster"

Target: Single (stackable with stratagems)
Effect: Deals earth/water/wind/fire/ice/thunder/light/dark damage (based on Sch's level)
Aditional effect: Klimasphere (Party members around the SCH temporally get all weathers effects, including stormsurge bonuses)
Usage Level: X (Under the effects of Tabula Rasa, can be used only once)
Skill Type: Elemental Magic
Damage of each element calculated alone.

Example:
At max level could be something like this:

Scholar cast Disaster.
Enemy takes 1000 points of earth damage.
Enemy takes 1000 points of water damage.
Enemy takes 1000 points of wind damage.
Enemy takes 1000 points of fire damage.
Enemy takes 1000 points of ice damage.
Enemy takes 1000 points of thunder damage.
Enemy takes 1000 points of light damage.
Enemy takes 1000 points of dark damage.

It wouldn't be too overpowered considering that some jobs already can do 8k, or more, of damage with their's 2h, and that some enemys may resist damage from some elements or even be healed by some of them.

Also, i think that we should be able to cast brave and faith w/o the need of 2 hour ability.

Well, see, you still gotta call it Merton! :)

Yeah I'm not too excited about a 2-hour helix spell even if it has the best spell name in FF history. I'll wait to see the effects but I like your idea of a multi-element nuke better. I'm hoping SE implements something along these lines eventually, whether it's simple dual-element nukes or some mega all-element 2-hour nuke. I especially like your tie to weather and natural disasters, like we've learn to cause them by manipulating weather for 59 levels.

EDIT: Merton is listed as Dark magic skill, not necessarily dark element. I wonder what element it will be - maybe you'll actually get your all-element spell in helix form...

I'd have to think about an all-element nuke a bit (what staff do you use? What mobs would it not be useful in due to resistance/absorption?), but it sounds interesting at first read.

As far as Brave and Faith, I'll have to see potency first. I totally agree with you if Brave just ends up to be a simplified combination spell with the same potency as Adloquium + Haste + Regen.

yay first post! there are only a few things that I really don't like about scholar, course these are just my opinions but. The worst is probably elemental celerity, I hate running with blms and they cast what feels like at least a third faster than I do on elemental spells. I feel like an inept douche when I start casting, blm runs up starts casting after me and gets it off still.
Another thing, this is obvious, but we need something taht approximates cure V. Although I do feel like I can cure better than a rdm or ne other expect whm.
The dark arts strategems kind of bug me as well, I feel like I'm always having to choose strats that increase my endurance over increasing my epeen.
I also feel that I can't help but under-utilize immanence, between staff swapping and then having to use too many strats to make immanence effective, unless there is pty co-op, makes me feel like the consept is flawed.
Also I think given the dependency on the strats there should be some sort of JT that occ. doesn't use a charge when I've used a strat.
I also think the mathematics in regards to the helix spells are horrendous but there you are.

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Originally Posted by Ahrana

And I have another request, even though it's minor at best. I think scholars (and black mages) should be given access to the weaponskills that have been set aside for whm, pld, smn and mnk. It's annoying to have to sub white mage to have access to cataclysm, and not being able to hit staff red triggers as scholar is somewhat insulting.

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Summoner does not get Cataclysm or most of the Staff weakness triggers either. The only classes that get all staff WS natively, without having to sub one of these classes is WAR, MNK, PLD, and WHM. This is because these classes are recognized as relying more on damage dealing with melee then nuking.

If you want to melee, you have to sacrifice something for that ability. In this case, you have to sacrifice spells like Sleepga or Phallanx and job traits like Magic Attack Bonus.

As a White Mage you have to make similar trade offs, such as choosing between /BLM for Warp/Stun/Sleep2/Tractor/Ice Spikes, /RDM for Refresh/Convert/Phallanx/Ice Spikes, or SCH for Light Arts/Sublimation/Strategems. If White Mage natively got Light Arts/Sublimation/Strategems, Scholars would be screaming bloody murder. I don't see why White Mage should have to make difficult choices about their subs if other jobs don't.

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If White Mage natively got Light Arts/Sublimation/Strategems, Scholars would be screaming bloody murder. I don't see why White Mage should have to make difficult choices about their subs if other jobs don't.

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I'd say comparing giving Scholar a decent Weapon Skill lineup for Stagger procs to giving White Mage Light Arts, Sublimation and Stratagems is one of the dumbest things I've read, but sadly it isn't. It would probably hold more weight if White Mage wasn't already the sole source of healing power in the game, not to mention out meleeing what is arguably meant to be a melee mage. I'm sure SE has plans to make Banish IV and Holy II out do Meteor in terms of damage, too.

Seriously, the only reason I can imagine you'd come back with that kind of response to "Give Scholar Weapon Skills that do no damage" is because you don't want Scholar stepping on your precious toes. Honestly, at this point I'm ready to sledgehammer them.

Please, reread what I said, hopefully after having some Chai or something to calm you down. The point of it is that each sub job has trade offs. Part of the package with /WHM is losing nuking power for more melee power, and currently, but very temporarily, Haste. I suppose there are also some very situational advantages involving not having to pop Add. White.

Should I have mentioned this more clearly then I already very clearly did, by say, mentioning them by name? Maybe. But it isn't something to get upset about. Please don't take things so personally, and if you do, don't get into a toe smashing contest with a White Mage. You won't ever win, they excel at smashing things with sledgehammers.

I really hope you aren't saying SCHOLAR is supposed to be a melee mage. Perhaps you mean Red Mage. But lets get this clear. White Mage has very useless nukes. Even the White Mages asking for the spells know that Banish IV and Holy II aren't going to do hardly any damage and will eat a ton of MP. In the end, Paladin is probably going to be more effective with them, provided when their job timer resets. White Mage, like every other class in this game, deserves a little bit of damage output. Both Scholar and Red Mage get varying levels of solid nuking power. White Mage does not. White Mage currently has very shakey rolls to back up on if we fall back into the dark ages of Colibri burn parties. Thus, White Mage is the mage with the most raw melee power, as this fits game balance.

Anyways, I didn't ever say that Scholar should have no damage weapon skills, White Mage was already given a few of those, and I can tell you that White Mages aren't so unkind to wish such harm on anyone. Without having to trade off anything in subs, Scholar already gets access to Spirit Taker and Retribution, two very solid WS. If you wish to get access to magic WS, you have to make a trade off however. I'm really sorry if this is frustrating, but that's game balance, and not something to get too upset about.

Although, if you really want to get a solid magical WS with no real tradeoffs, you could just sub Red Mage and merit Dagger a bit. You'll also get Phalanx, which really helps with AOE WS if you plan on farming in Abyssea with it, and even a crappy level 12 knife can put out major numbers with this WS, but you can equip a Blau Dolch. In Abyssea, Minikin/Gales/Beyond will augment this nicely while still filling out your role with easy, although you may find some other combination to your liking.

Omniscience is something else that comes to mind, I think it might be a elemental WS, but I don't actually have a lot of information about it at this time, so I can't really help you here. If anything should be a good damaging WS for Scholar, it would be that. Perhaps this could be the damage tool you may be looking for.

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The point of it is that each sub job has trade offs. Part of the package with /WHM is losing nuking power for more melee power, and currently, but very temporarily, Haste. I suppose there are also some very situational advantages involving not having to pop Add. White.

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/White Mage doesn't add melee power, it adds two pathetic Weapon Skills and one OK one. /Warrior would add melee power and the Weapon Skills, to my knowledge. There is no trade off for melee power with /White Mage, if we're meleeing we're already trading off nukes. A main Black Mage would trade off Elemental Celerity, all its MAB and Magic Crit if it choose to melee because you can't nuke and melee at the same time. All the subjobs you mention are ones I'd already have to take into consideration anyway, regardless of wither I grew a brain tumor and decided to melee.

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I really hope you aren't saying SCHOLAR is supposed to be a melee mage. Perhaps you mean Red Mage. But lets get this clear. White Mage has *** all for nukes. Even the White Mages asking for the spells know that Banish IV and Holy II aren't going to do hardly any damage and will eat a ton of MP.

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Of course I'm talking about Red Mage. It has *** all for nukes compared to Scholar or Black Mage (which are *** compared to any DD in the game). *** all for Enfeebles pending the the changes in future update in which Scholar is also getting a bunch of new Enfeebles and my Phalanxga out shines its Phalanx II (and if SE is changing merits, I wouldn't be surprised if Phalanx II becomes a AoE spell that outdoes Phalanx, meaning my only role in the game is gone). Oh, and I already mentioned that what's meant to be a back line main healer and glass cannon (I'm talking about White Mage here incase you need some help with common sense) far out does it in terms of melee.

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Although, if you really want to get a solid magical WS with no real tradeoffs, you could just sub Red Mage and merit Dagger a bit.

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/Red Mage and do Dagger procs? That'd be great, I never have a Thief in my parties. Sarcasm, in case you missed it.

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You'll also get Phalanx, which really helps with AOE WS if you plan on farming in Abyssea with it, and even a crappy level 12 knife can put out major numbers with this WS, but you can equip a Blau Dolch. In Abyssea, Minikin/Gales/Beyond will augment this nicely while still filling out your role with easy, although you may find some other combination to your liking.

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You may want to name a Weapon Skill rather than just saying "This WS", I'm not a mind reader. I can only assume you mean Aeolian Edge, which may be a valid point, but I'd still rather have access to Weapon Skills on my C+ weapon rather than my D skilled weapon.

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White Mage currently has very shakey rolls to back up on if we fall back into the dark ages of Colibri burn parties. Thus, White Mage is the mage with the most raw melee power, as this fits game balance.

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White Mage has a absolute role in this game, compared to Scholar which has absolutely no role. It's the only real healer in the game, everything else doesn't stand a chance. If you're worried about Colibri burn parties coming back, look at the *** game. I can cap every job and merits in a couple of weeks. End game events are tossing out 15k EXP and everyone has auto-Reraise III, this game is never going back to merit parties so get *** over yourself, White Mage is the single most vital job in this game and apart from a very brief spell in ToAU, it always has been. It doesn't deserve melee power in the slightest. It doesn't even deserve updates anymore; not until SE can make a single job rival it for even a second, anyway.

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Anyways, I didn't ever say that Scholar should have no damage weapon skills, White Mage was already given a few of those, and I can tell you that White Mages aren't so unkind to wish such harm on anyone.

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Primarily we want Weapon Skills for red Stagger because in terms of Abyssea, something Scholar is completely lacking any viable role in. I'd rather have Helices proc yellow like they should, but I'm not going to turn down Weapon Skills. Earth Crusher and Sunburst aren't going to break the game or even effect balance in the slightest. Even if we got Cataclysm it wont do anything to effect game balance at all, as you've said we already get a couple of damaging Staff Weapon Skills, one more isn't going to change a thing.
The only reason anyone would want a full set of Weapon Skills on Scholar is for Immanence, which is stupid since in the time you waste meleeing for TP you could easily out damage your eventual Skill Chain with a couple of nukes. There is zero reason for Scholar to melee in this game and giving it three Weapon Skills isn't going to give it one. You could give Scholar Drakesbane but it still isn't going to equip a non-existent (or event) Polearm to melee just because it's got a great Weapon Skill for it.

How you get all defensive about the idea of Scholar having access to Weapon Skills that are not going to push Scholar into a melee oriented role in a thousand years is quite honestly beyond me. White Mage can equip a Club and Shield or two Clubs and practically solo anything thanks to Cure V and VI, which as I've said, is something it shouldn't even be able to do. Even if Scholar suddenly got a A+ in Staff (currently it has the same level of skill as White Mage) and could Triplewield the damn things, it's not going to be managing that. Grow *** up and stop pretending that Earth Crusher and Sunburst are going to have any effect on the balance (or lack off) between Scholar and White Mage in any way.

Nothing that hasn't been stated before, but I'd at least say it again to put in my vote - strength in numbers...

1)
Sch needs cure v or some equivalent, or SE at least needs to do us the courtesy of updating the Sch description to reflect what it really does (not) have for healing at end game.

2)
Until we start getting invites for the unique aspects of the class (I'll skip on naming them all), those unique aspects are underpowered. The empirical evidence speaks much louder than the loudest subjective opinion anyone has.
It doesn't really matter how "unique" something is if it's not useful, and if no group really cares if they have it or not.

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Originally Posted by sigma_star

Until we start getting invites for the unique aspects of the class (I'll skip on naming them all), those unique aspects are underpowered. The empirical evidence speaks much louder than the loudest subjective opinion anyone has.
It doesn't really matter how "unique" something is if it's not useful, and if no group really cares if they have it or not.

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One of the saddest facts about the game when it comes to what people choose for their parties/alliances/LSes: people don't care for jack-of-all-trades jobs.

Look at the census: http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/gui...nsus/10/2.html
The 4 least popular jobs are jobs that are unique because of their versatility; however, people don't care about that, because they only care about jobs that specialize in what they do.

In the case of SCH, if people want a nuker, they'll invite a BLM; if they want a healer, they'll invite WHM; if they want someone to enfeeble & buff their party, they'll invite a RDM.

The same could be said about COR, PUP, and BLU, who can all fill different positions in a party. The only reason I would say BLU is at the top of this list is because people require BLU for grellow procs in Abyssea, and even then, according to the census, it's still not a terribly popular job.

So if we can't rely on SCH to be more accepted by the population based off of the job's versatility, SE can do one of two things:

• 1) Make it a truly unique job that can bring something USEFUL**** to the party that no other job can do.
• 2) Simply make it much more better at what it currently specializes in (MP conservation, AoE buffing/debuffing, and using the elements strategically (to buff party & nuke enemies)).

It seems like SE's introduction of Libra and the Animus spells was a half-baked attempt at #1, because not only does the manifesto completely lack any reference to any sort of enmity control, but previous to the 80 cap increase, SCH had not seen any sort of indication that it would play a role in controlling party enmity.

#2 is pretty straightforward, and SE seems to be taking some initiative in that direction with some of the stuff we've heard (increasing the effect of Light/Dark Arts according to levels), but I would really like to see some more storm/helix type spells that rely on the power of the elements. I want SCH to be able to pinpoint an enemy's weakness and use it to their advantage (more so than just using a spell that an enemy is weak to).

Was in a campaign battle and for the first time in a long time I felt like I had an advantage to being a sch exclusive to sch. The NM was casting breakga frequently and my lil stonaga was saving the day. >.> ! Which lead me to think a simple buff to help make sch exclusive and useful and what not is to make ascension capable of buffing the alliance. It wouldn't be too powerful cuz people can sub it and do it. I know someone has probably had this idea before but I'm just seconding(x) that. Just had to share that I felt good being on sch for once lol. >.>b

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Originally Posted by georgcantor316

Was in a campaign battle and for the first time in a long time I felt like I had an advantage to being a sch exclusive to sch. The NM was casting breakga frequently and my lil stonaga was saving the day. >.> ! Which lead me to think a simple buff to help make sch exclusive and useful and what not is to make ascension capable of buffing the alliance. It wouldn't be too powerful cuz people can sub it and do it. I know someone has probably had this idea before but I'm just seconding(x) that. Just had to share that I felt good being on sch for once lol. >.>b

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I'm too lazy to look it up right now but I remember this specifically from the community rep post as the (last item?). They said no. I'm filing it in the "would be nice" bin but have also always had it in the "not going to ask because I think it's too far fetched" bin.

I always loved stonaga specifically in campaign too. It's not really exclusive to SCH. WHM/SCH can do it too, but of course with less strategems available. Maybe you were referring to the frequency/reliability with which SCH can do this?

I don't really find a problem being useful on SCH outside Abyssea, or many complaints when I insist on coming SCH. We all scoff at Adloquium's lolPotency but it's pretty nice to start out the tank/dd party in BC alliances outside Abyssea with full TP, and people do actually appreciate this. I also get some nice smiles from WHMs with Korin Obi in and out of Aby. With that and Twilight Cape on the target SCH can give a pretty potent boost to cures. These couple things aren't game breaking, though, and mostly just useful outside Aby, so I'm not downgrading my insistence that SCH be a viable healer for new end game. We still have the MP efficiency card, if that is made relevant again. Honestly, though, I'd rather that not continue to be an excuse for gimping unique contributions.

I can't figure out where the WS arguments are coming from. I couldn't have cared less for this job. I understand the desire to have a useful role in Abyssea, but I really don't find a lack of WS coverage happening when I'm on SCH.

It did get me thinking, though. I want to finish a Yama's for Merton. I'm guessing it will be dark element, not just dark magic. From what I understand Cataclysm is the best way to do this, and I really don't want to do it on WHM or /WHM. I don't know why, maybe just because I hate WHM outfits so much, and really don't want to stare at it for the duration of a magian trial! Oh well, they are planning to adjust how WS's work, so I'd be pleasantly surprised if SCH got native access to it.

Incidentally, has anyone thought about what double weather capabilities would mean for SCH cure potency vs. WHM? We'd push Korin Obi up to 25% on a single piece alone. Together with Twilight cape that's a 30% bonus that is not subject to the 50% gear cap, right? If I have all the pieces right it's 68% cure potency bonus to SCH cure spells (without Rapture), where WHM would be stuck at the 50% cap without a SCH or the ability to sub Aurorastorm.

My solution would just be to remove the cap. I haven't done a whole gear evaluation for WHM but I think 70% is possible without weather.

Obi bonus is multiplicative with "cure potency" bonus and cloak bonus. So, a basic 15% potency set for SCH (staff + serpentes set) plus obi plus cape, on single weather is 1.15*1.05*1.1 = 33% extra amount of HP healed, and with double weather is 1.15*1.05*1.25 = 50% extra amount of HP healed.

Nice, yeah I see that now in the Wiki formula, thanks. So if you had the max available cure potency gear for SCH, you'd get:

1.38*1.1*1.05 = 1.59 or 59%

and with double weather:

1.38*1.25*1.05 = 1.81 or 81%

lol@ 81% cure potency with double weather.

EDIT:
Would the cape and obi be applied together as one percent? The formula has day and weather applying separately after gear, but it's not clear what happens with the cape. In other words is it gear * 1.1*1.05 or gear*1.15? I don't think it matters for single weather but for the whopping 25% double weather bonus it would only be 79%, not 81%.

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Originally Posted by Merton9999

Nice, yeah I see that now in the Wiki formula, thanks. So if you had the max available cure potency gear for SCH, you'd get:

1.38*1.1*1.05 = 1.59 or 59%

and with double weather:

1.38*1.25*1.05 = 1.81 or 81%

lol@ 81% cure potency with double weather.

EDIT:
Would the cape and obi be applied together as one percent? The formula has day and weather applying separately after gear, but it's not clear what happens with the cape. In other words is it gear * 1.1*1.05 or gear*1.15? I don't think it matters for single weather but for the whopping 25% double weather bonus it would only be 79%, not 81%.

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You should really multiply that double weather 25% bonus by the (in)frequency of it occurring to get a more realistic overall percentage. In my experience with sch when I hear the words "in double weather", I pretty much ignore it as too circumstantial.

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Originally Posted by Merton9999

Nice, yeah I see that now in the Wiki formula, thanks. So if you had the max available cure potency gear for SCH, you'd get:

1.38*1.1*1.05 = 1.59 or 59%

and with double weather:

1.38*1.25*1.05 = 1.81 or 81%

lol@ 81% cure potency with double weather.

EDIT:
Would the cape and obi be applied together as one percent? The formula has day and weather applying separately after gear, but it's not clear what happens with the cape. In other words is it gear * 1.1*1.05 or gear*1.15? I don't think it matters for single weather but for the whopping 25% double weather bonus it would only be 79%, not 81%.

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Cape is a seperate term, so (single weather, no day) obi + cape would be 1.1 * 1.05.

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Originally Posted by sigma_star

You should really multiply that double weather 25% bonus by the (in)frequency of it occurring to get a more realistic overall percentage. In my experience with sch when I hear the words "in double weather", I pretty much ignore it as too circumstantial.

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He was proposing a situation where Scholar would get new weather spells that add double weather.

Speaking of which, Scholar can cap cure potency inside Abyssea. Meaning that with full cure potentcy, and the appropriate gear to help with weather, 73% potency, and if they got double weather, a 96% potency. With the reachable 73% you could toss out ~700 damage Cure IV, or Rapture for ~1000 damage, depending on MND and VIT. Double weather effects would mean that total cure potency would beat out a White Mage including fully buffed cureskin, in terms of potency. Getting Cure V at any time during this would obsolete White Mage outside of procing Holy and Banish III, assuming you or someone else in your party is /WHM.

Thanks for the clarification.

In my experience your strategems go fast if you try to main heal on a big boss, so Rapture is nice but not always there. Sometimes you would have to be healing cure iv + Rapture every time or you will fall behind without more support. Also, whm has aoe heal without needing strategems.

Additionally, whm has cure vi now, and there's no way a sch can beat that.