[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] MNK

remove boost as a job ability and make it a passive trait that increases attack based on monks main level and when subbing monk its effect is halved. talking 1% @level 30 - 5% @ 99 kinda thing.

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Originally Posted by Serj

There is nothing you can do to boost to make it worth using every 15 seconds. I'm not sure what everyone is thinking...

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How about adding a really cool macro to Boost in /say?

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Originally Posted by Francisco

How about adding a really cool macro to Boost in /say?

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I believe that's the only way you can, actually =O

Brb, adding Domon Kasshu (sp?) quotes to my boost macro.

The most rewarding experience I ever got from Boost.

Back when I used to do Limbus - with like 15 other melee - I stood back and just Chi cannoned Proto-Ultima.

There was this SAM in the group who I really disliked. After landing a Chi Blast, I Boosted again and pulled hate, moving Proto-Ultima and causing the SAM to mis-Gekko and lose her TP. She started flipping out and told me to stop using Boost.

I replied "No. :D" - then went on to blow all my MP on spamming cures on the tank.

I really disliked that SAM.

Would be nice if Monks could get a hand to hand weaponskill that gives amber.

Monk is one of only a couple jobs that has native access to Cataclysm, which is an extremely powerful Amber tool. I'm not sure if we really need to waste a new h2h WS on it =/

I have a massive amount of math worked out, but only going to post the summary here:

While standard H2H gives 65% more TP to the mob per unit time, the fact that Footwork takes 43% longer to kill largely negates that advantage, leaving standard H2H giving just 22% more TP over the course of the fight; perhaps a single extra TP move per 100k damage done (not counting TP the mob gains from regain or hitting the player). Does not appear to be a good trade-off.



Each of the four stances in the game are designed to enhance something:

Hasso - Enhance attack speed, with a slight str/acc edge
Seigan - Enhance defenses, blocking more attacks per move, and readying defense more often
Innin - Enhance attack: crits and MAB
Yonin - Enhance tanking: evasion and enmity

There are a few trade offs for each, but the important thing is what they enhance.

So what does Footwork enhance? It minimizes TP given to the mob. (While it gives a boost to Att, that's a mechanism, not a purpose. Put another way, it's a "how", not a "why".) So what do you gain from it?

Better survivability? Not really; since the fights take longer you'll end up taking more damage per fight anyway.
Better attack? No; you do significantly less damage with Footwork than standard H2H.
Better tanking? No, there is no real gain in any tanking stats (evasion, counter, guard, enmity, damage reduction, etc).
Better hate control? Maybe, kinda. You do less damage so you're less likely to take hate, but there's really no difference between that and just turning away from the mob.

The problem is that, for anything we might want, we already have JAs for it. Speed? Hundred Fists (granted, short-term). Accuracy? Focus. Evasion? Dodge. Healing? Chakra. Counter rate? Counterstance/Perfect Counter. Reduced TP? Penance. Crit rate/damage? Impetus. Enmity? Damage.

While we no longer have the crown in terms of gear haste, I don't know that I'd go with any attempt to give us 'bonus' haste like drk gets with Desperate Blows.

What else could we possibly want to do that Footwork would help us with?

Ok, I can think of one thing: enfeebling. Perhaps consider it a way of striking joints, or otherwise making it difficult for the mob to attack us. Maybe give small, short-term effects like Attack/Defense Down, Magic Att/Def Down, or similar. Don't think I could quite justify things like Paralysis or Gravity, but maybe a higher-than-average spell interruption rate.

Those three things together might be sufficient. Footwork stance opens up two JAs: one to cause Att/Def Down (Kneebreaker), the other to cause M.Att/M.Def Down (Boot to the Head). Maybe 30 second duration, 1 minute recast, shared timer. And Footwork in general has a higher chance to interrupt spells than standard melee.


Along with that, from my other calculations, I'd also suggest putting the bonus base damage that Footwork gives at something like Vit/4 instead of a flat +18. +18 is ok around when we first get Footwork, but obviously doesn't scale at all with higher levels.

If there will be no more powerful buffs like in Abyssea, won't Monk go back to being a sidelined job cuz their base damage is so low? 2 hits for 50 damage each from a Monk or a hit for 200 damage from a Samurai; the monster would more or less gain the same TP from either attack so it wasn't efficient to use Monks.

So how about giving Monks an ability to ignore half of a monster's Defense, but when used you cannot gain any TP through any means and any TP you have is reset to 0?

You could also buff Footwork to give higher attack at the same time too, so we're given even more options. People who like to kick will use Footwork, people who prefer to punch will use this new ability.

This would hopefully make it so they deal the same damage as the Samurai or another "heavy" Damage Dealer in the end.

Monk has always been one of the best DDs in the game (if not the best at multiple points in the game's history).

TP feed is also a null issue when Monk can cap Subtle Blow and inflict Penance on mobs, they give significantly less TP than Wars, Sams, and Drks.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Monk has always been one of the best DDs in the game (if not the best at multiple points in the game's history).

TP feed is also a null issue when Monk can cap Subtle Blow and inflict Penance on mobs, they give significantly less TP than Wars, Sams, and Drks.

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Doh, I forgot about Subtle Blow.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Monk is one of only a couple jobs that has native access to Cataclysm, which is an extremely powerful Amber tool. I'm not sure if we really need to waste a new h2h WS on it =/

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Monks still dont have access to a main amber, and could just add amber to a weaponskill thats allready in the game.

i'd settle for them removing the h2h nerf they implemented in 2007. back to 1.7k asuran fists and 7 hit builds.

Footwork is not a DD ability and it's a good thing otherwise it means the best weapons in the game will suck with it. I'm using it for fast TP gain and I like it wether it's to get TP before the mob's next TP move or for farming relics in dumbamis.

Motenten comparison for footwork damage/tp give ratio is not really interesting. If a mob has a TP move that you care about it probably is deadly (other wise autoattack and cure VI, what else ?) which means cure VI can't save you so it's better to avoid it 100%. In this case optimizing the ratio TP given/damage doesn't make sense. The only thing that matters in this case is the mob's TP gain over time and that' where footwork is useful. Oh but I disgress because no such thing exists anymore (Ultima worked great like this I heard), ez mode etc but at least it's semi useful for procing the odd WS-proced-mob in your favourite dynamis camp (the only other possiblity is a low damage club or staff for crap TP gain)

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Originally Posted by Kendlar

Monks still dont have access to a main amber, and could just add amber to a weaponskill thats allready in the game.

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Monks have access to "Main" Amber. As a main job, they have many Amber WS. It's Hand to Hand that does not have access to Amber WS, or Elemental WS. Frankly, I think that's a good thing. Elemental WS suck.

Monks have Main job skill in Hand to Hand, Staff, and Club. It wouldn't really make sense to add Amber to any existing h2h WS because none of them have remotely elemental properties, and personally I'd like to keep it that way.

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Footwork is not a DD ability and it's a good thing otherwise it means the best weapons in the game will suck with it.

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I'm not trying to make it a full DD ability; rather, just trying to suggest some sort of identity for it. For the in-Abyssea comparison, you'd need to increase Footwork's base damage by *70* to put it on par with Fire Taipan +2s, both using Ascetic's Fury (and FW using Ursines); never mind comparing to anything using Victory Smite. Trying to make it into an offensive JA like Hasso would be impractical in the extreme.

Yes, you can get slightly faster TP gain using Footwork (maybe 20% when using Ursine Claws; without Ursines, time to weaponskill is basically identical to standard H2H), but that seems to be a pretty pitiful role to fill for the use of an entire ability/stance.

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Motenten comparison for footwork damage/tp give ratio is not really interesting.

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Interesting or not, it does give an idea of the actual TP feed effect that is its only real selling point at the moment (the edge in TP gain is mainly due to the weapons; with ordinary weapons, Footwork is no faster than standard H2H). TP feed per time unit is heavily in Footwork's favor, but TP feed per damage unit (ie: factoring in time to kill the mob) is only somewhat in Footwork's favor, to the point that the total number of TP moves that you'll face when using Footwork is probably the same as the number of TP moves when not using Footwork (Footwork may end up generating one less move, though it depends on the length of the fight).

It's "not interesting" because the calculations support what we already know: that you're not reducing TP gain enough for it to matter in any realistic scenario. It's "interesting" because reduced TP feed per unit time is one of the only measurable advantages Footwork has, and as such must be considered part of what the devs figure is 'important' about the use of the ability.

If they continue to build on Footwork based on that narrow scope of assumption then Footwork will never have more than the most marginal of uses. Therefore it's important that certain understandings be made clear on its use and functionality before attempting to move forward.


Aside: The calculations of course assume only a single DD on the mob, the mnk. Add a second or third DD and all calculations about TP feed pretty much go out the window, and attempts to reduce TP feed that are not universal (eg: Penance, Auspice) are largely meaningless.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Monks have access to "Main" Amber. As a main job, they have many Amber WS. It's Hand to Hand that does not have access to Amber WS, or Elemental WS. Frankly, I think that's a good thing. Elemental WS suck.

Monks have Main job skill in Hand to Hand, Staff, and Club. It wouldn't really make sense to add Amber to any existing h2h WS because none of them have remotely elemental properties, and personally I'd like to keep it that way.

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Yes im sure people think of club and staff as the main weapon of choise for a Monk.
Again, just add it to a weaponskill thats allready in the game.
I would like a amber hand to hand weaponskill for sure, would make it ALOT easier when farming stuff solo in abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Kendlar

Yes im sure people think of club and staff as the main weapon of choise for a Monk.
Again, just add it to a weaponskill thats allready in the game.
I would like a amber hand to hand weaponskill for sure, would make it ALOT easier when farming stuff solo in abyssea.

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stop being lazy your request is retarded just use a staff not like its the end of the world.

MNK has no trouble capping Amber Solo... request for an elemental H2H is not worth the dev's time.

I pray the dev's and moderators don't waste their time answering this request ; ;. More important / popular requests to address and I hate it when the Moderators actually address the least popular requests and leave out the things we all want feedback on.

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Originally Posted by Gokku

stop being lazy your request is retarded just use a staff not like its the end of the world.

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Yeah, im not the one beeing retarded here....

you seem to be the only crying for a amber hth ws.

You mean wanting...

This is ff1 style for those that remember... since we wont ever see monk master class

JA, Master: prevents the use of JAs and are unable to equip weapons, higher delay and added damage. Like crazy damage..

was an ability to remove status effects I forget the name...

an aoe chakra

a JA flying kick.. aka jump..

Are more abilitys from like fft/ffta/ffta2 i forget which atm but mnk could use some more to do.. mnk is such a lazy and selfish job..

come on youve really got to try harder then that to troll on monks.

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Originally Posted by Gokku

come on youve really got to try harder then that to troll on monks.

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Lol, SE read this when they did the job update notes today

/wrist why god why se

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Originally Posted by Covenant

As with almost all the new "Maniestos" rather than give player acces to both 2 hr ability of job and sub job, SE seems to be going in the direction of "mini 2hrs".

Not being a high lvl monk(lvl37), I don't know what's going on with this job but here's my 2cents...
...chakra already had a regen effect? I think this would have been a perfect spot to create a regain effect for monks.
...out if all the jobs I think Monk should have gotten a native "Stun chance%". Maybe tied to kicks?
....I've suggested before a NON-decaying(set duration), random STAT down effect /JA called "Crippling Blow".

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Hey guys, mnk has no native mp but we should natively give them something that costs mp!

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Wow, ever since Samerai got that ability to divide its T P to skill chain solo, the concept of mim-2hour was born! A mini-2hour for Monk would be relative and somewhat necessary considering the type of mobs to expect in the future. SE did the same for Dragoon with adjusting its 2hour way back in the day. I don't see what sub jobs have to do with anything...

Anyways, a Monk with MP would be nicely encouraging to use new abilities... as I recall, I don't know anything being used now at this time... why not a mixture of elements with curtain weapon skills (like the non-elemental skills, spinning strike comes to mind)?

no stop posting bad ideas for useless stuff , fix boost fix guard and if anything raise our natural attack acc and crit rate.

Vaguely amused. Just re-read the original manifesto (hadn't checked it in a few weeks), and noticed the description for mnk had stuff I'd forgotten about:

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There's still room to build upon their renowned self-defense tactics such as Chakra and Counter, and they can also benefit from some extra training in skills like Subtle Blow and Chi Blast that leave foes too weak to fend off attacks from other party members.

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The little enfeebling suggestion I made as an addition for Footwork actually fits right in with that last bit, "leave foes too weak to fend off attacks from other party members". So, maybe there's a non-zero chance of the suggestion actually being considered :)


The mention of Subtle Blow means we can probably expect another tier of it in the next update. Have to test it. That would put us at +25 from the trait, and +20 in common good gear (AF3+2 head, Rajas, Black Belt); easily capped if you use Agasaya instead of Faith.


While we got no new JAs this update (and really, not surprised or disappointed), I don't believe there's been any official statement about 'adjustments' to all the jobs' JAs yet, aside from sch's 2hr, so there's still the possibility of tweaks to existing JAs.

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Originally Posted by Motenten

The mention of Subtle Blow means we can probably expect another tier of it in the next update. Have to test it. That would put us at +25 from the trait, and +20 in common good gear (AF3+2 head, Rajas, Black Belt); easily capped if you use Agasaya instead of Faith.

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This means they will have to do something to spharai aftermath

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

This means they will have to do something to spharai aftermath

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fix it like they fixed aegis/burtgang (go overcap)

JA: Sucker Punch- Your next attack bypasses a set amount of your opponent's defense.
Recast: 30 seconds
Duration: 3 Minutes
Initial cast: 20% Bypass
Additional casts: +5% Bypass
Maximum: 50%

Notes:
-Only works with Physical attacks and Non-AoE Physical Weaponskills
-Monsters will maintain a minimum of 250 Defense regardless of how much the ability is used. (For balance)
-Monsters that have 250 or less defense naturally will not be effected by Sucker Punch effects. (Because at higher levels your essentially already breaking through a monsters defenses.)
-Additional gear bonuses may decrease the minimum defense a monster can have, or increase the maximum percentage of defense bypassed.

Essentially it make's us a bit stronger on harder things, but prevents us from being overbearingly powerful on weaker stuff. The numbers can be changed to be more fitting for balance issues, and it could even be given to MNK at a low enough level to be subable to other jobs. With recasts preventing just any players from spamming it to it's maximum potential (like boost) it receives some diminishing value on higher end DPS jobs, but could potentially give a major boost to lower DPS. It's just an idea that struck my fancy out of the blue though.

More JA Ideas:

Discourage: "En-TP Drain" ability similar to Conqueror Bakgodek in Campaign? If that's too overpowered, simply dissipating the enemy's TP with every punch instead of absorbing it would grant more utility vs overpowered advantage.
-Would love to combine either of those with HundredFist as a followup for "Chainspell: Stun."

Channel: a stronger boost ability that shares boost's timer but takes 3min to reuse and only raises 3/4 the benefit of a full 3min boosting session. This makes for a tactical decision to boost+ws on common monsters or channel+ws on TP-cancel / amnesia prone monsters like gnats, colibri, and ladybugs. For Chi-blast, it could be used for raising damage on initial-hate. On a side note: I'd like it to gain 3/4 the enmity of boosting for 3min.

That would make boost useless.. which well I guess it already is hah.