DRK is good enough already...

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Originally Posted by Chriscoffey

I just offered to prove that by moving servers. You have a very snooty behavior that behoves me believe that the only way to prove you wrong, like many others I have encountered, is by physically showing you on the game. The math i quite clearly understand as it is my basis for the counter argument. I am quite convinced even posting parse data would only have negative effects so I feel as if a one on one physical showing quite clearly would show you the results needed to win this approach to your belittlement of everyone involved. You can either accept or decline the offer at this point. There have been many things in life that on paper looked rock solid but in practical use was failed logic because someone forgot about something called "human error".

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so you where insulting me like a child asking to bring something to my server?

Math or GTFO Plain and simple.




also my argument doesnt support the human error comeback thing <3

im simply Stating why DRK CAN win it is totally up to the player if this math holds up. Tho It would talk a very bad player to lose after All of the data i have put up because it sure seams like DRK has a hefty lead.

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Originally Posted by Jar

so you where insulting me like a child asking to bring something to my server?

Math or GTFO Plain and simple.




also my argument doesnt support the human error comeback thing <3


I'm simply stating why DRK CAN win it is totally up to the player if this math holds up. Tho It would talk a very bad player to lose after All of the data i have put up because it sure seams like DRK has a hefty lead.

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A child is your stance where you name call IE "it's AV idiot" and other replies in previous post. I don't really care what you believe but I respect what Taint has to say as me and him have had arguments over catastrophe use before. I can't recall his belittlement of me ever during any of those conversations. I am being an adult in this situation and saying once I finish my apocalypse I can lay the foundation of proof in front of your face which is apparently the only way to get through to you at this point.

You can also always take into account human error as that is what is running the characters which in turn run the parse which what i said holds true about people not understanding the game dynamics in more detail. You keep talking about how dark mathematically holds up more against a warrior but your discernment of the stance on warrior is their critical/DA rate won't prevail over dark's speed.

You state your math by giving warrior less haste, not using their 2 hour and other ideas which lower their overall DOT to be prevalent over dark by a considerable margin. You nitpick 1 scenario with 1 mob and stand behind it as that is the underlying end all be all result of which you believe our comprehension is lacking. I remember me and Taint having another argument with Pathwriter who had that same type of scenario as well for Last Resort and it making Dark the new god outside abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Chriscoffey

You state your math by giving warrior less haste, not using their 2 hour and other ideas which lower their overall DOT to be prevalent over dark by a considerable margin.

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I cut out WAR 2 hour becuase in my One situation i am nitpicking it is a hinderance to count on a 2 hour if you would like to know why read back i dont want to quote it

WAR gets less haste because of just that WAR GETS LESS HASTE because 80% is NOT possible with out a DNC and... who would bring a dnc not another WAR?

to be fair my shell usually has a dnc in the "main dd" party

My head hurts from reading all of this. Let us all just agree to disagree and keep it moving. The argument is pointless as both sides will be arguing this until the end of time, regardless of how much proof or math is used as evidence.

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Originally Posted by Jar

WAR gets less haste because of just that WAR GETS LESS HASTE because 80% is NOT possible with out a DNC and... who would bring a dnc not another WAR?

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if DNC brings WAR up to 80% haste then it's near a 50% DMG increase and if thats on 3 WARs that DNC is adding more than what 1 more WAR ......

Not to mention Box step if stacked with Dia III + angon is like increase EVERYONE in the ally's Attack by 7.7%(lv 2) to 20% (lv 5).

Also it's about making the most of what you have 1 DNC can enhance the 3 Strongest WARs meaning that the DNC doesn't need anything special to be as useful as the 3 WAR infact it could even be Dual boxed.

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

if DNC brings WAR up to 80% haste then it's near a 50% DMG increase and if thats on 3 WARs that DNC is adding more than what 1 more WAR ......

Not to mention Box step if stacked with Dia III + angon is like increase EVERYONE in the ally's Attack by 7.7%(lv 2) to 20% (lv 5).

Also it's about making the most of what you have 1 DNC can enhance the 3 Strongest WARs meaning that the DNC doesn't need anything special to be as useful as the 3 WAR infact it could even be Dual boxed.

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3war + dnc to cap haste on the 3 war(20ish% boost <3 not 50%) and get pdif alittle closer~cap

will not beat the 4 DRK that could take that place and cap everything with just a brds buffs.

How is it 20%?

Magic is 35-37%
Gear + hasso is 35%

So ur looking at 3.33-3.5 x attack speed

At 80% haste your at 5x attack speed

so your looks at 50%-42% increase in DMG roughly.

The lvl 2 box step would mean u need 1274 attack to cap which WAR would hit via ur calculations.

Honestly Jar i don't know where you get ur stuff from i mean ok in an ideal sitituation where every player has every job pimped out it may be the case to take a DRK X 12 to AV but it's not like that so a WAR having DNC isn't a dumb concept even considering it's steps are a decent boost when stacked with other def down sources.

Not to mention WAR is gonna have Sekki and Meditate

Either way screw it if WAR can't have a DNC just buy a Haste belt and it can have 80% Haste because it counts towards magic so now u have ur 4 WARs at full haste vs 4 DRKs

not to mention AV may not even have 999 def it may have less or more u can't really guess it either way if i had to guess it would be less but w/e it's pointless stuff AV is easy.

"Denial" is a defense mechanism postulated by Sigmund Freud, in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence. Sound familar?

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

How is it 20%?

Magic is 35-37%
Gear + hasso is 35%

So ur looking at 3.33-3.5 x attack speed

At 80% haste your at 5x attack speed

so your looks at 50%-42% increase in DMG roughly.

The lvl 2 box step would mean u need 1274 attack to cap which WAR would hit via ur calculations.

Honestly Jar i don't know where you get ur stuff from i mean ok in an ideal sitituation where every player has every job pimped out it may be the case to take a DRK X 12 to AV but it's not like that so a WAR having DNC isn't a dumb concept even considering it's steps are a decent boost when stacked with other def down sources.

Not to mention WAR is gonna have Sekki and Meditate

Either way screw it if WAR can't have a DNC just buy a Haste belt and it can have 80% Haste because it counts towards magic so now u have ur 4 WARs at full haste vs 4 DRKs

not to mention AV may not even have 999 def it may have less or more u can't really guess it either way if i had to guess it would be less but w/e it's pointless stuff AV is easy.

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war will be at 78.7% haste w/o a dancer cutting Soul voice gives you about 180 less attack also therefor no more cappy on war with steps <3

DEF i did with gekko and fudo comparison math not even 5 posts ago put def at 999 or more<.<

and even with full haste base delay puts drk ahead

Well u want a THF on AV and it subing DNC for steps and to cap WAR haste is another viable alternative if WAR does have 78.7

Where did u get 78.7% haste tho?

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

Well u want a THF on AV and it subing DNC for steps and to cap WAR haste is another viable alternative if WAR does have 78.7

Where did u get 78.7% haste tho?

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Magic and gear are capped in the math that put WAR attacking 16% slower than DRK
25% + 43.75% + 9.96%= 78.71

i do agree that a pt with just war and a thf/dnc was there that wouldnt bee bad for an alt DD party because its hard to get just DRKs

my grup runs with like 4 drks a few sam and like 5 WAR so that might be something worth looking into for when we zerg PW later going to be fun getting numbers on him :D and naturally ill hand all my numbers out for free to be talked down on by this community <3

I find it a bit strange that Dark Knights see the job as inferior when it has two weapons that can do very high damage and a third (Great Axe) that doesn't lag far behind. Yes, Razed Ruins has little use for most DRK Weapon Skills, but that's Abyssea. Before I leveled the job myself recently, I've always been amazed by the Dark Knights (the ones who knew how to play the job, not the ones who didn't know they had MP) I've partied with.

In my mind, I see Dark Knight as a job that is no less effective than Warrior or any other melee job. The parser stuff serves only to obscure this.

If you refering from the start of the posts Hayward alot of the posts were made before the last resort buff i believe since the last resort buff DRK is easly one of the strongest DDs outside abyssea and we're about to get another boost so there is noway that DRK lacks outside of abyssea when it comes down to DMG.

Inside Abyssea we are lack in the DMG department but honestly this has/will prolly lead to DRK becoming overpowered outside of abyssea. Either way i'm still DRK most of the time when we do abyssea for my LS because i'm one of the main tanks which easily makes up for my lack of DMG.

Fyi Gaxe isn't the way to go on DRK lmao really any DRK using a Axe/Gaxe should be on WAR honestly.

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Originally Posted by Jar

who would bring a dnc not another WAR?

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I think that just about sums it up lol.

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Originally Posted by Taint2

I think that just about sums it up lol.

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I stand corrected about Taint being a pee wee herman... bad taint bad.

outside abyssea 90 apoc / caladbolg with the LR buff rapes faces. God I love it so much it reinvigorated the game for me.

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Originally Posted by Dart

outside abyssea 90 apoc / caladbolg with the LR buff rapes faces. God I love it so much it reinvigorated the game for me.

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It helped. I can prove you wrong with my other jobs vs dark with anything you have coming or going but as i said.. proof is in the fact I come show someone it seems. I do agree though caladbolg helped dark get up their damage outside abyssea. I am still waiting to see what SE throws at us in term of alliance fights for 18 people again or if this "easy mode" is the norm. I am waiting to see also how they go about increasing damage potential of the relics and I hope one of those is the ODD increase everyone believes they need to compete with emps now. I guess we all will have to wait and see how this goes.

you're talking to a guy with 2 relics and 5 empy (all the good ones) I can keep up again unless they have a ghorn bard with +2 hands.

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Originally Posted by Dart

you're talking to a guy with 2 relics and 5 empy (all the good ones) I can keep up again unless they have a ghorn bard with +2 hands.

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I hope you don't take too much offense to this but seriously do you know how many times i have heard that and they didn't realize how far back they were. I mentioned before that I knew an apocalypse dark finished @75 telling me the same thing. I had stage 4 apocalypse at the time. We had the same buffs with 2 brds. I typically outparsed him in Ein or anywhere by 10-14%. He used the same logic. I am not saying you don't know what you are doing but to reply that you have that many relic/emps is of very little rebuttal against what people do know or can do if geared correctly.

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Originally Posted by Chriscoffey

I hope you don't take too much offense to this but seriously do you know how many times i have heard that and they didn't realize how far back they were. I mentioned before that I knew an apocalypse dark finished @75 telling me the same thing. I had stage 4 apocalypse at the time. We had the same buffs with 2 brds. I typically outparsed him in Ein or anywhere by 10-14%. He used the same logic. I am not saying you don't know what you are doing but to reply that you have that many relic/emps is of very little rebuttal against what people do know or can do if geared correctly.

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math bro math

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Originally Posted by Jar

math bro math

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The parse was the math bro math and the parse is listed on a site. That particular parse was about 2 years ago at the very least for the Ein run. When you can start talking to me about critical tiers and their functions at particular levels then maybe you are in my ballpark bud. I think that is the only way in which you can comprehend why war > drk even outside abyssesa.

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Originally Posted by Chriscoffey

about 2 years ago

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2 year old data is irrelevant lol

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Originally Posted by Jar

2 year old data is irrelevant lol

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It was quite relevant at the time and still applies to what my point is about people lacking a detailed understanding of gear sets and timing. Critical builds are still very much at the forefront of this entire conversation about war and dark which was just as relevant then as it is now. I can see you are stuck in a this mindset to believe your scenario is the end all be all for our discussion. I believe it's best we agree to disagree as you will never take into account anything I could possibly post.

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Originally Posted by Chriscoffey

It was quite relevant at the time and still applies to what my point is about people lacking a detailed understanding of gear sets and timing. Critical builds are still very much at the forefront of this entire conversation about war and dark which was just as relevant then as it is now. I can see you are stuck in a this mindset to believe your scenario is the end all be all for our discussion. I believe it's best we agree to disagree as you will never take into account anything I could possibly post.

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yeah lets cut Last resorts HUGE buff out of the equation and war might win outside..


oh and l about Ddex values that almost every job will cap outside of abyssea on einherjar mobs with minor Gear changes.. i covered how Crital hits are done like a page ago. <3 if you want a quote i will



Im not outright saying lol HERP DERP DRK> WAR LULZ

im saying that the difference is almost nothing now and in most situations DRK will hold its own if not do better.

Now if you want to keep talking about information that is DOWN RIGHT FUCKING IRRELEVANT go for it.

............/facepalm

@Chris

I dunno whats ya point i mean u can keep saying ur wrong or w/e till the cows come home while i agree that some of the math jar presented is a lil flawed it does give a rough idea on how DRK and WAR will perform on AV and that is there both decent as for whats the best ??

Niether it's more about having as many viable DDs for AV as possible (meaning if ya have all WARs or all DRKs u should be able to kill AV)

The Math v parse arguement for zergs they both fail prolly for the same reason that zerg DMG is effected massivly by luck/lag and player skill (prolly a ton of sititional shit too)

Outside AV and abyssea DRK definity has the Edge on WAR because of how powerful Last resort is but that just my opinion.

Not to mention DRK is a the supeior stagger job in Dyna and VW

I haven't fought av since 75 and a few times at 80 cap. Mighty Strikes made war the clear cut winner back then. I'm not sure how much has changed since for av we were always getting SV'd marches. and cata/guillotine generally blowed chunks, and i don't see torcleaver standing a chance in hell against ukko's.

granted that's a fight heavily tilted in war's favor. the sv marches takes away one of drk's advantages, attack speed.

The problem is everyone in this entire subject matter is right and wrong based upon situations presented. I am saying the generalized idea is that me and taint are typically in an LS which uses efficiency killing jobs for all DD like brds/dncs/cors. Those jobs push DD to having capped attack and capped haste on just about anything without using any 2 hours. I know fully well a dark going in solo can do more than a warrior using LR.

I also know if both have equal buffs that war with uko. that is properly geared for criticals/DA rate will completely annihilate a dark with apocalypse and a bit less with cal. You are taking 1 mob in the entire game and saying well dark doesn't need updated due to a mob that having more attack in bracelet mode gives them the edge throughout the game. That type of thinking is asinine considering that we have came from 18 man alliance fights to what we have now where efficiency is not as desired.

huge difference between getting ghorn + af3+2 hand marches vs not getting them when you compare attack speed vs last resort. (To clarify i mean a normal bard vs top tier march aka ghorn + af3+2 hands). It really adds up over the long run which has been my point from the beginning. If you aren't getting that then drk pulls right up there again (caladbolg drk, apoc sucks still).

attack speed is everything, when its equal yea war destroys everything and i mean everything. It isn't even close.

Ignoring AV

Outside 2hr and in general.

It's so complicated it's dumb.

But it comes down to this if ya buff towards WAR ofc WAR will win but it's prolly the same for DRK.

Either way it kinda comes down to this

Does
Mage BRD COR DRK (with march X 2 Chaos + Sam/Tact/Da roll)
beat
Mage BRD COR WAR (with March X2 Blitzer + Chao/THF roll)

for which DD has the most potential (outside 2hr) DMG wise

In reality u need both anyway
VW u need WAR for the WS range and DRK for both the WS and magic.
In Dyna DRK trumps WAR since it covers magic and WS on it's main alone.
... tbc once SE add more hard endgame lol.

Lol at this thread and you discussion. WAR in zerg Annihilate DRK completely EVEN with bad marches. 20% faster (assuming 75% haste for war and 80% for DRK) swinging is completely overwhelmed by WAr's DA and 100% crit. blood rage under effect of mighty strikes is a total killer. Ukko will on avg do probably twice the Torc damage. It's not even close.

Also lol at ppl thinking Cala is that much better than Apoc. They are very close with right builds.

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Originally Posted by Atoreis

Lol at this thread and you discussion. WAR in zerg Annihilate DRK completely EVEN with bad marches. 20% faster (assuming 75% haste for war and 80% for DRK) swinging is completely overwhelmed by WAr's DA and 100% crit. blood rage under effect of mighty strikes is a total killer. Ukko will on avg do probably twice the Torc damage. It's not even close.

Also lol at ppl thinking Cala is that much better than Apoc. They are very close with right builds.

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The people in this thread that are saying dark is better on AV and as such take might strikes out of the factoring due to mutiple kill attempts. I don't care how anyone wants to use situational logic for their arguments in here if a dark is solo compared to a warrior they have a chance. If a dark and warrior are getting equal buffs for what a linkshell used to fall under a good geared critical warrior is eating a dark.

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Originally Posted by Atoreis

Lol at this thread and you discussion. WAR in zerg Annihilate DRK completely EVEN with bad marches. 20% faster (assuming 75% haste for war and 80% for DRK) swinging is completely overwhelmed by WAr's DA and 100% crit. blood rage under effect of mighty strikes is a total killer. Ukko will on avg do probably twice the Torc damage. It's not even close.

Also lol at ppl thinking Cala is that much better than Apoc. They are very close with right builds.

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ANDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD


65 hit and 20% DA is the same extra hits as 54 hits and 30% DA the base hitrate makes up for DA difference and my DRK has 25% not 20

2hour was factored out but if you would like to talk about 2 hours anything that DRK can 2 hour DRK WILL win blood weapon and Souleater are nothing to scoff at.

you wana zerg we will show you what a fuckin zerg has been for YEARS.

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Originally Posted by Jar

ANDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD


65 hit and 20% DA is the same extra hits as 54 hits and 30% DA the base hitrate makes up for DA difference and my DRK has 25% not 20

2hour was factored out but if you would like to talk about 2 hours anything that DRK can 2 hour DRK WILL win blood weapon and Souleater are nothing to scoff at.

you wana zerg we will show you what a fuckin zerg has been for YEARS.

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souleater have no chance with mighty strikes. Assuming you have 130 damage weapon and avg pdif 2.0 with 40% odd That will be ~500 damage avg (assumign you have blood rage from WAR otherwise much lower) so souleater will add something like +200 for every strike so around 700 total with 430 delay so 97 dps.

WAR with Ukon will be around 145 base damage. Lets assume avg pdif 2 before might strikes so around 2.7 with them ( I might lowering it too much here but I dont have time for advance math now ). Same ODD 40% (sekka 100>200TP at start) 756 avg per swing with blood rage and delay 482 so dps 94.

Now assuming this bad marches and 75% haste for war and 80% for DRK. DRK will swing around 10% more overall so total dps from melee will be around ~13% higher. Number of WS will be the same pretty much and now part where WAR gonna destroy DRK. WS damage

Ukko 3.9 x (~150+79) x 2.7 x 1.49 = 3600 avg
Torc 5.2 x (130+70) x 2 = 2280 avg (200 from souleater)

~60% advantage for WAR. DRK has no chance.

Also all this math and situation is in favor of DRK and it still win drastically.

Bacon Mage > DRK. The end of all this nonsense. SE fails so much at making this job what its supposed to be.

75% 80% diff for DRK and war is almost 25% because base delay is diff on the weapons ...

Your pdif math is WAr sided DRK gets more attack and war wont be even close to 2.0 in any situation a zerg will matter

base dmg on Cala will be 131 Ukon will be about 145 because Remption is going to be 150(redemption base damage is 5 more at 90 and if anything the damage diffrence will get bigger putting Ukon BELOW 145) and apoc will be 154

ANNNNNNNNd i stoped reading after that becuase i stoped caring Less mistakes next time please math isnt that hard kiddo <3

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Originally Posted by Jar

75% 80% diff for DRK and war is almost 25% because base delay is diff on the weapons ...

Your pdif math is WAr sided DRK gets more attack and war wont be even close to 2.0 in any situation a zerg will matter

base dmg on Cala will be 131 Ukon will be about 145 because Remption is going to be 150(redemption base damage is 5 more at 90 and if anything the damage diffrence will get bigger putting Ukon BELOW 145) and apoc will be 154

ANNNNNNNNd i stoped reading after that becuase i stoped caring Less mistakes next time please math isnt that hard kiddo <3

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Its funny because your numbers actually favors WAR even more...

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Originally Posted by jar

65 hit and 20% DA is the same extra hits as 54 hits and 30% DA

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65*1.2=78 54*1.3=70
78x700=54600 70*756=52920
Thats only 3% advantage for DRK vs 13% from my math ( like I said my math was in favor of DRK..)

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Originally Posted by Atoreis

Its funny because your numbers actually favors WAR even more...



65*1.2=78 54*1.3=70
78x700=54600 70*756=52920
Thats only 3% advantage for DRK vs 13% from my math ( like I said my math was in favor of DRK..)

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so telling you the Base damage Pdif and DA rate of WAR is smaller than you said made it stronger

also capped Pdif for 2 handed weapons is 2.2 <3 just saw that in your first post

i dont think you know what + and - even fuckin mean ... gtfo of this forum

i believe that i summed up this thread very well and in layman's terms even. Why is this still going on?