Just go Ballista.
Attacking other players while under the effect of Charm
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07-06-2011, 12:17 PMUrteil
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07-06-2011, 12:40 PMIlaxLol trust me, I don't sux when i trio box [or i wont have 3 empy done by myself, GA/h2h/GK] =P but there still stuff where you have no control, eat a 3k disgorge have nothing to do with skill... Is not like i was dieing every time again him, but having different group/linkshell runing over my head like a CROW would do if you walk in desert, then huh ya that pretty pathetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimble
For orthrus, shit happen man, when 3 orthrus is up at same time and you press 20 time on your cure macro and there nothing happening, then meh is all what it take to get you kill. But anyway, no matter how i die form an NM is still not a good reason to steal it, but hey like i said i am over it now and i don't care anymore, they can take my NM if i die, i do the same to everyone now, imo i think is a fair game.
Back before i was not interacting with other NM, i even let NM de-pop couple time, idk man, maybe is just a fenrir problem where no one care about other group/ppl, back in the time there was a good reason to steal NM, people get tire of waiting and they wanted to pop, so you wipe and take too long they was taking it... With 3 pop, this reason is now totally bull$h!t, and stealing NM is 100% a grief action, and currently everyone (majority) find that is correct just because sky is blue and the sun is yellow, then i guess same rule apply to me when i have the chance to steal. -
07-07-2011, 01:25 AMKimble
Yeah, don't even bitch if you do it yourself. You are just as bad if not worse then the people you are whining about.
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07-07-2011, 01:26 AMKarbuncleWrong if you ask me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilax
Firstly, You're going on a 1 man crusade to steal NMs for random people you've never met and have never wronged you in any way, simply because someone vultured your NMs. This isn't "I hit them because they hit me", its "I hit them because I'm angry someone completely different hit me".
You're taking out your misplaced frustration on having an NM stolen on a group of people who did not do that to you. You're just blindly attacking anyone in your sight range simply because you're angry someone did it to you, You don't care who you hurt, You indiscriminately attack anyone, regardless of needing the drops or not.
Its just a terrible act. If your goal is to try and incite change, Maybe show kindness to people?
Secondly, Even if it was "I beat them because they beat me", Two wrongs don't make a right. Thats something you learn as a young age and I'm not sure why people don't remember it these days. -
07-07-2011, 01:30 AMRafienI was there the other day and was charmed and started to kill someone.. I felt so bad!Quote:
Originally Posted by Urteil
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07-07-2011, 02:40 AMKorpg
I want my 15 minutes from reading this thread back!
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07-07-2011, 08:01 AMIlaxI request a -1 post on your account for this sad post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Korpg
@Karbuncle, like i explained it been more then only 1 person, more then 1 group.
Here a partial log [of course ill remove name to be nice]
[00:56] >>Ry***** : ???
[00:57] >>Ry***** : can i help you?
[00:57] >>Ry***** : or you just here to steal?
[00:57] >>Ry***** : (Leave)
[00:58] Ry*****>> my shell will take it only if you wipe to it. but my shell wont help >< if i was here alone. i'd help
[00:58] >>Ry***** : plenty of pop (Leave)
[00:58] >>Ry*****: stop doing shaddy stuff
[00:58] Ry*****>> aint doing anything lol please continue and good luck^^
[00:58] >>Ry***** : you and your LS ruin the game
[00:59] >>Ry***** : let other do they stuff, stop stealing NM
So see them not moving i tryed another strategy...
[00:59] Ilax : GT$# or i blist everyone in your LS, last warning
[01:00] Big*****ark : disgorge (Do you need any help?)
[01:00] Sk***te : Ouch a Warning >.>
[01:00] Ri***n : sorry
[01:00] Ilax : go pop your own NM
[01:00] Ilax : stop your B#llsh$t steal nm
[01:00] Big*****ark : language dont cure
[01:00] Big*****ark : im offended
[01:00] Ilax : go camp something else then me seriously
[01:01] Big*****ark : i like to watch
[01:01] Ilax : watching me like a crow running over my head?
[01:02] Siv***d : Ilax makes a post on the Officla Forums: [To The Devs] I don't want other LS's watching me fight NMs!
[01:02] Siv***d : Devs fall for it
So after a while i just got tire see 15 player from that LS watching me if i would die to get a "FREE NM" so i just decided to use a brew, and by mistake used a WS same time glavoid used JA.
[01:14] Big*****ark weeps in sorrow before Khellendros.
[01:14] Big*****ark : go get another brew
[01:15] Khellendros readies Blade: Ten.
[01:15] Ilax gains 3000 limit points.
they start acting even more like clown when i start spaming who i was blisting:
[01:15] Ex********ss : lol the whole ls??
[01:15] Si****d : Want the other members of our LS?
[01:15] B**id : /laugh @ Noobs
[01:16] B**id : LOL IIax Failz
[01:16] Khellendros : if didn't care to steal NM, why stare? worth waste brew make sure you not steal on one
[01:16] Ilax : fail? go low man it see who fail.
[01:17] Si****d : Why can't we watch?
[01:17] Ry***ts : why brew tho? lol its only Glavoid
[01:17] Ilax : is call disgorge = wipe possibility
[01:17] Khellendros : cause shit happens and we've had to many stolen by LS camp while kill
And this is just 1 LS out of many i ended to fight with, but like i said, i am over it now, and i return the same favor to everyone, i am real sorry for the few people that are still respectful to other, but this is getting a minority in abyssea. -
07-07-2011, 08:05 AMKorpgBest you can come up with?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilax
You are not helping your image at all, you know that, right?Quote:
@Karbuncle, like i explained it been more then only 1 person, more then 1 group.
Here a partial log [of course ill remove name to be nice]
[00:56] >>Ry***** : ???
[00:57] >>Ry***** : can i help you?
[00:57] >>Ry***** : or you just here to steal?
[00:57] >>Ry***** : (Leave)
[00:58] Ry*****>> my shell will take it only if you wipe to it. but my shell wont help >< if i was here alone. i'd help
[00:58] >>Ry***** : plenty of pop (Leave)
[00:58] >>Ry*****: stop doing shaddy stuff
[00:58] Ry*****>> aint doing anything lol please continue and good luck^^
[00:58] >>Ry***** : you and your LS ruin the game
[00:59] >>Ry***** : let other do they stuff, stop stealing NM
So see them not moving i tryed another strategy...
[00:59] Ilax : GT$# or i blist everyone in your LS, last warning
[01:00] Big*****ark : disgorge (Do you need any help?)
[01:00] Sk***te : Ouch a Warning >.>
[01:00] Ri***n : sorry
[01:00] Ilax : go pop your own NM
[01:00] Ilax : stop your B#llsh$t steal nm
[01:00] Big*****ark : language dont cure
[01:00] Big*****ark : im offended
[01:00] Ilax : go camp something else then me seriously
[01:01] Big*****ark : i like to watch
[01:01] Ilax : watching me like a crow running over my head?
[01:02] Siv***d : Ilax makes a post on the Officla Forums: [To The Devs] I don't want other LS's watching me fight NMs!
[01:02] Siv***d : Devs fall for it
So after a while i just got tire see 15 player from that LS watching me if i would die to get a "FREE NM" so i just decided to use a brew, and by mistake used a WS same time glavoid used JA.
[01:14] Big*****ark weeps in sorrow before Khellendros.
[01:14] Big*****ark : go get another brew
[01:15] Khellendros readies Blade: Ten.
[01:15] Ilax gains 3000 limit points.
they start acting even more like clown when i start spaming who i was blisting:
[01:15] Ex********ss : lol the whole ls??
[01:15] Si****d : Want the other members of our LS?
[01:15] B**id : /laugh @ Noobs
[01:16] B**id : LOL IIax Failz
[01:16] Khellendros : if didn't care to steal NM, why stare? worth waste brew make sure you not steal on one
[01:16] Ilax : fail? go low man it see who fail.
[01:17] Si****d : Why can't we watch?
[01:17] Ry***ts : why brew tho? lol its only Glavoid
[01:17] Ilax : is call disgorge = wipe possibility
[01:17] Khellendros : cause shit happens and we've had to many stolen by LS camp while kill
And this is just 1 LS out of many i ended to fight with, but like i said, i am over it now, and i return the same favor to everyone, i am real sorry for the few people that are still respectful to other, but this is getting a minority in abyssea.
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07-07-2011, 08:06 AMKimble
From that whole convo, looks like you were the one that started it, lol.
Honestly, why not go WHM/BLM and stun disgorge? Its how we do it.
It doesnt surprise me if more and more people start camping you and trying to take mobs from you since you seem to have given your self a rep. -
07-07-2011, 08:17 AMIlaxDon't have to worry about my rep, been a good 7yr i am on fenrir, and people know me pretty well, they know what to expect from me, so do i know what to expect form them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimble
Now you think i sound rude because i was unhappy a 15 member LS camping me? So why be again me when i say i now camp other with my lol-trio box and take fun of stealing? I guess for you is sound ok to steal a triobox but not fair a trio box return the favor, believe w/e you wan at this point it wont change my way, and i hope more trio box do the same as me because i am sure i am not the only one that got camped by full LS while trio'ing NM.
Also keep in mind is game mechanic if your NM go yellow is your own fault, if you get charm and someone kill you is your own fault, there plenty of way to avoid it (as you said for glavoid, disgorge could be stuned) I agree i sucked 7 time and allowed them to steal, let see how skilled other group are :P
I can tell you they not much better when i see them wipe on orthrus with 15 member, and i take my fun steal, and of course i could tell them "stop fail" as it apply to me =)
Edit: of course i play the ass card, and no i am not that bad in game... just hope people realize more the hurt they do when they steal NM, as i said it would be easy for SE to fix it, Key item go to who pop NM, exept on full wipe, Item drop should follow same rule, till then there no other way to play the same game as everyone. -
07-07-2011, 08:30 AMKimble
The thing is, it doesnt sound like they stole anything the moment it went yellow, they took it after you wiped to it. Even with charm, ive stunned it twice, once with whm mule and once with me on blm but it can still use it a 3rd time.
This is what you dont get, if you do it BACK to the people that did it to you thats fine as turn about is fair play, but for you to go around and DO IT to people who did NOTHING to you, you are just being exactly like the people you complain about.
Why is that so hard to understand? Or do you just see it as you are doing it to them first because you feel they are going to do it to you at somepoint? -
07-07-2011, 08:31 AMKorpg
If an alliance get their pop stolen from you, by the sounds of it, they will get it back, you know that, right?
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07-07-2011, 10:11 AMKensagakuGotta love that last line. "No way to play the same game as everyone in an MMO." I wonder what MMO means, hmm...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilax
That aside, the convo you posted is just making you look all that much worse, to be honest. You're showing yourself to be a poor person; I don't encourage stealing NMs just because they go white for a half a second, nor do I condone it. I can see people taking from a wipe; that's a reasonable "steal". You lost your mob completely, you have no reason to complain. But if something simple happens and they're not completely floundering, then you're just being an ass. Which you're showing yourself to be regardless, and honestly I'm wondering if that's the reason you have to tri-box...
Not saying the other linkshells were in the right for "camping you", but at the same time, an eye for an eye makes the world go blind. No sense in taking your "revenge" over something so petty as a few game pixels. -
07-07-2011, 10:46 AMSparthos
When you 3box, there are risks and that's part of dealing w/new XI.
I had a tale where a linkshell was watching me fight Ogopogo and as luck would have it, we got smashed by Tidal Wave at 1%. No Fanatic Powders etc etc.
Ogo went white and the LS and me had a battle of claims where eventually I lost and they killed it. I tossed a naughtyword by reflex but got an invite to lot my souls.
I felt like an ass. Rightfully so.
The PT leader who was also doing souls didn't want my pop to go to waste. Though I cursed like an asshurt crybaby, the group acted like adults, we both apologized and both parties reconciled.
tl;dr: For every group of jerks, there are level headed people who are willing to play ball. Being asshurt does nothing but make you look childish. -
07-07-2011, 11:02 AMRezeakNot being funny if i saw anyone act like this i'd prolly want to kill them more in charm just saying this isn't aimed at you it's aimed at anyone that causes grief cause a group is just standing somewhere is dumb if u don't like playing with other pple FF1-10 and 12/13 is there for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilax
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07-07-2011, 11:09 AMKimble
FFXIV works if you want to play alone too.
:P -
07-07-2011, 11:27 AMIlax
I don't know why you guy sound like i care anymore lol, i camp other group too, just to steal they NM, don't you see that ironic? Again you all sound like is fair to loose a NM because i trio box, but if i steal other is not correct, you guy seriously need need pick a choice and stick at it and not say how is fair with your random reason. To me is totally ok now, they can steal the few NM i lost, i can steal way more.
Kinda find pathetetic the "We only going to take if you wipe", like it justify your steal.. You can believe w/e you wan, imo is a fair game, you don't wan people steal your mob, play better.
For LOG comment, i asked them to leave, instead they gather they entire LS ready to steal, i sound rude, hmm okay maybe, go in the street with a shot gun next to a COP, and let me know if he going to be nice with you. If you still don't get the point, then sorry you one of those in game that never understand anything exept when it happen to yourself or your group, so w/e,
Who say i wan play alone? Maybe is my new fun now stealing other NM, maybe YOU should go play FF14 if you don't like FFXI mechanic, how about that?Quote:
FFXIV works if you want to play alone too. :P
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07-07-2011, 11:56 AMIlaxExactly the problem, they will eventually end to do it, the reason can be anything, they LS leader forced them, they got tire of loosing nm, they find the theory: if NM go yellow is fair to get, they read forum and figure they should do the same, add the reason you want, all i can say is it happen frequently now. GM wont ban you for stealing NM, they only going to apologize that someone did it to you, is result i got form GM, and i can't blame them too, is the normal mechanic of the game, is just not everyone that yet understood.Quote:
Why is that so hard to understand? Or do you just see it as you are doing it to them first because you feel they are going to do it to you at somepoint?
And of course, in game i wont say: I'm just watching you guy to steal.... no no don't get me wrong, i am a nice guy, i just tell them: I'm just watching ^^ i only take if you wipe.
*Again i play the rude card* witch is not really me in game, but i am sure you understand more the matter saying it that way. -
07-07-2011, 12:07 PMIlax
You guy also have to make the difference between someone waiting NM go yellow because a PT wiped or w/e the reason, and someone that go there and interact to force NM go yellow to take it (Mass cure/bene/invincible) and god know all those trick ppl did back in the time @ HNM scene. Of course if you do that GM will instant ban you, but get a NM because he un-claim, they wont do anything, is the way the game is programmed and the way game intended to be.
Keep in mind Playing the game rude is by far not again ToS... But you for sure /welcome to not go in that direction if wan stay far of drama, QQ, and hate. -
07-07-2011, 12:30 PMKimble
Lol you're awesome. I hurt others because one day they might hurt me but I have no proof of that at all.
Is that how you function irl too? Better to never make any friends irl because they are just going to turn on you one day. -
07-07-2011, 04:09 PMIlax
Social RL and in game is 2 different thing, inside abyssea and outside abyssea is again two different thing, Abyssea is same deal as it was before in HNM scene, wait maybe you never did HNM? If so, then ask any HNM ls and any GM what was the RULE if KB, Fafnif, Amanantoise, Tiamat and so on go yellow unclaim, trust me they had no mercy. How you guy ended to think rule/Ethic/Game mechanic changed with Abyssea? Did HNM ls was camping other HNM LS in case they wipe? Hell yes.
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07-07-2011, 04:36 PMKimble
I did HNM and you cant really compare 21-72 hour timed pops to NMs that pop every 10 mins or take 10 mins to build a pop set.
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07-07-2011, 05:19 PMIlax
10 min to build glavoid set, i wan see how you do that. For HNM it was 3h window, 1h30 average, about the same amount of time you spend to build glavoid set. (Of course i am not looking for the 72h one, no one was camping the 72h, but people was leaving a mule to tiamat (to only name him) and LS was gathering only on pop).
Anyway i can for sure compare HNM scene, same Q.Q at camp, same mechanic, same kind of GM call, only thing that different is how you can pop the NM multiple time and HNM was 1 per day. Was is more rude on HNM scene? hell yes it was, is also why i mentioned it, did anyone got banned because they steal other LS when HNM go unclaim, no way! That should answer better Korpg post. is not a matter of grief but more about game mechanic/competition.
There still stuff you not allow to do, like claim the EFT nm in attowa Chasm, and die next to the group fighting Ulhuadshi then take they NM, that go again ToS, but claiming NM because is yellow is not again ToS. Kill someone charmed and steal his NM, is no again ToS. For sure is rude and you be hated to do so, but don't expect a GM todo anything about it. -
07-07-2011, 05:28 PMPikel
I love charm. We fought a mob a few weeks back that charmed and our whm kept getting close so eventually when he was charmed I just built tp off him to proc blu. He die's or he GTFO either way we got our drops. lol
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07-08-2011, 12:03 AMKorpgObviously you don't know what "grieving" means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilax
It is not the act itself, it is the intent to do harm, that is grieving. Taking one mob and killing it, that is not grieving. Going around a linkshell and taking any/all mobs that turn yellow, or camping a mob that does AoE charm and taking all mobs that turn yellow after another group has pop'd it, that is grieving.
Like I said, it is not the action, it is the intent. -
07-08-2011, 12:53 AMIlaxWho said i wan harm them? Abyssea is a play field where is a tons of competition, i am not expecting them to have pity for me if my NM go yellow, so is fair game as i said. It would be "intent to do harm" if i expect them to not steal but camp a group just to steal, hope you make the difference, i already said i am over it now and i do accepted that other are ready to steal my NM, nothing i can change on that side, only DEV have power to make a change, not me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Korpg
If people wan cause drama / Q.Q or blist as i did, just because they NM got steal in abyssea, then you be ending like me and have your blist @ 200/200 and you go no where acting like that. -
07-08-2011, 01:10 AMKorpgWhy are you following them then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilax
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07-08-2011, 01:18 AMIlaxit call "offensive play", not "grieving" as you keep thinking, and is nothing new in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Korpg
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07-08-2011, 01:26 AMKimble
I can see why you are reduced to having to tri-box everything.
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07-08-2011, 02:08 AMIlaxNo, i am active in 3 active LS, Totalchaos (dynamis), Twilight (abyssea) and SdorianKnightII (abyssea) The trio-box is just for my personal empy weapon, i would not train someone 10 to 34h long just for me, i also did help 4 friend to get they empy, you can verify by yourself if you wan: Angalo, Angelus, Lesil, Shoyu, also currently helping 3 more to get they empy. I gave over 8 Loki free so far, yes i did not sell, note i should sell... i miss a good way for gil.. meh like i really need that. You be surprise to see the amount of +2 item i give for free, i am only interest in Empy item when i trio box, and i never refuse anyone that is interest into +2, i careless about those item, is just the left over for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimble
I maybe sound like an ASS, i agree on that, but that is just because i don't hide how i now play "offensive". Meet me in game and you probably have a way differen opinion on me. -
07-08-2011, 04:42 AMKarbuncleQuote:
Originally Posted by Ilax
You shouldn't worry about asking for help with an Empyrean, Especially if you've helped so many people get one. You should work out a mutual deal with your friends if your goal is to not "mooch" one.
For instance, right now my friends and i are getting all of us an empyrean (well, I'm going for Mandau), We do a couple hours of Empyrean Weapon farming, then do Dynamis.
We go on the weekends when everyones online. So far we've finished 4 out of the 6 we have goals for. I'm on stage 3 of Mandau with 22/61 Shells too :o (I'm being lazy lately, I could be done with Shells if i had gone more often)
If you work out a system with your friends you won't need to tri-box. I can understand not wanting to impose on friends, However if they really are friends they should have no problem helping you. And if its a "I dont want them to help me with no reward" kind of thing, Do what i do, Help them build weapons too.
I guess theoretically this make take longer in the long run for an individual though... -
07-08-2011, 04:51 AMKimble
Yeah, seems to be how it is with my group. We are all friends and no one feels like they are using anyone because everyone knows if they need something, they will get help.
Also, with all the stages now giving out +2 items, its not like they arent getting anything out of the deal.
Plus yeah, if you helped so many of your friend with their weapons, why would it bother them to help you in return? -
07-08-2011, 03:46 PMIlax
Well yes, is actually what i am doing too, currently helping Angelus to finish his Aegis (he on last stage, ~800 ordel left for full completion) as i did help littlechaos (amano) and cooncon (Gungir) also helping grimace in salvage for his mythic (i never take any alex, always give to him 4 free)
Well i was leading "twilight ls" for empy weapon and +2, i just ended to give up due to drama, they are still very good friend, just they not ready to spend that much time in abyssea as i do, and it was pretty much the main part of drama. Instead forcing them to come help each other (as it used to be) i just do everything on my own, at least i am no longer feel like i abuse of them. (or feel abused)Quote:
If you work out a system with your friends you won't need to tri-box. I can understand not wanting to impose on friends, However if they really are friends they should have no problem helping you. And if its a "I dont want them to help me with no reward" kind of thing, Do what i do, Help them build weapons too.
I guess you need to lead to understand it, all i can say is how we did spend time to help a friend, then that friend turned MIA after he get his empy done, but since i am the leader i have other friend asking me to help in return for the help they gave me for that guy that is no longer playing or interest to invest time in abyssea. So do the math, all i was doing is accumulating a help debt for trying help them, not going to hide it come stressful at some point, and i lost my mind and say, fuck all this bullshit, and left to do everything on my own.
I still help them no matter what, but not everyday as i used to do, and not for everything, in revenge i don't ask them to help me on anything. I feel better since that day, of course is way harder and could be way better with help, but just avoiding drama made 50 Glavoid shell 5x more easy to trio Box.
Anyway, story is a bit more complex then that, but you can see a good picture of it, i did H2H (full completion) GA (47/75 claw on last upgrade) and i have no debt to anyone, and just that make me feel better. -
07-08-2011, 06:39 PMRunespider
I can understand the anger at vultures but the best way to deal with them is to try ignore them and concentrate on the fight, less chance of a wipe then. If I see a group in trouble and I see others desperately trying to vulture it I'll either team up and help or cure bomb them to keep them alive, I despise vultures.
There is a difference between someone that will take it and kill it just before it depops from a full wipe and someone standing as close as possible with their head bobbing on the NM, I really hate people that do that.
Anyway though, for glavoid most just use a stun bot to make sure they stop the one shot TP moves. Takes all the skill of turning on the TV, people who play legit in small groups will die to that move now and then so it's nothing to be ashamed of.
Takes a lot of concentration and skill to trio box legit, seems like you are very successfull at it^^Quote:
Anyway, story is a bit more complex then that, but you can see a good picture of it, i did H2H (full completion) GA (47/75 claw on last upgrade) and i have no debt to anyone, and just that make me feel better.
Also I have to be honest, if you relied on friends you would get a lot less done ingame. There are very few friends you will make ingame that genuinly just want to help you or work as a team, they want stuff for themselves and see help as a means to an end. This isn't everyone of course since some are genuine good friends but that is what a hell of a lot of ingame friends amount to.
If what you are doing is working for you (and it obviously is) then more power to you and don't let anyone tell you that isn't the way to do it. -
07-08-2011, 07:29 PMMyrrh
Don't want to be attacked while charmed? Don't get charmed. Problem solved.
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07-09-2011, 07:47 AMIlaxWell ya, but don't get me wrong, i don't mind to help i actually do that so often, the only thing that turn me off is how sometime you help someone and you realize how he refuse to help his own self and expect you do everything for him, and that is even worse when that happen to be a good friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Runespider
Idk i hardly can explain it... A good example i can give is how we burned our self for a month doing glavoid and itzpapilot, and at some point (after earth quake) a tons of our member turned MIA, and that friend was poking me none stop to finish his ewep and we did, it was hard/stressful etc, and one day (when he was @ 45/50) we had not the proper group/setup to do itzpapilot, and baam he start shouting and do stuff on his own, then start tell me how that random group is helping him better then us (like all we did for him don't count because we can't handle his last 5... the day he want)
Idk i have more stressful example i can list but i doubt i need to go in all detail since they are still good friend.. All i can say is, when you trio box your self here the advantage:
#1) You can start when you wan and can stop when you tire.
#2) you don't have to force friend to stay awake 10h for you. (witch refer to #1 but for your friend)
#3) You are in control of the fight (TP feed/Hate control etc.. and if you die is 100% your fault).
#4) You have no debt to anyone.
Don't wan to be rude here, but i find that was less harrasment that way. (for me and for friend) -
07-09-2011, 08:22 AMOlorI <3 you... noobs everywhere thank youQuote:
Originally Posted by Eeek