Page 4 GoV in Toraimarai Canal: Mission Impossible?

I've been under the impression with recent announcements that they are going to be adjusting certain pages in the future.

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Originally Posted by Aldersyde

Well, try moving faster when you pop. If you're just standing there, you've kind of missed the point of sneak popping in the first place.

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Ah yes how silly of me, because there's no NMs with enhanced movement speed, or have fast attacks, and there's no way the enemies extend beyond the potential distance you can run before you lose sneak. Did I mention these are AF quests? I did? Oh right, I did. Talk about "missing the point in the first place."

Because if I'm gonna help a new player with their first AF quest, they need to be experienced enough to know how to pop and run, right? They won't get one shot if they screw it up, right? "Tractor them" Kthnx, I'm not a BLM and likely not on a job that would be subbing that. So, I have to aggro the whole room to get them up, and probably end up dying myself, unless I'm on thf or subbing thf (also both very unlikely as I'm not a thf) because im being attacked by 8-10 level 100+ ghosts. "Sleep them!" Not a mage. "Come on a job that can do those things" Sorry, don't have those either of those 2 jobs leveled. "So level them, leveling is easy!" Why would I want to level something I wouldn't enjoy, not to mention the inventory space and you, know, lack of ever wanting to use that job. "Level it just for that" No.

You're probably asking yourself what the point of that idiotic paragraph was? I was eliminating any more dumb responses in the pre-emp. Why'd it take me so long to respond? Was waiting for the moment to make a S&G post.

I haven't been down in the Canal yet or most of the new Grounds of Valor zones to see where everything is, but it seems like all of these zones have a lot of the problems that Garlaige Citadel & Ranguemont Pass both have. SO, I would like to make my suggestion for where, if they wish to keep these monsters on the spawn table for these zones, they could place them. Let me start off though by saying - we don't need that many monsters in these zones. Until you make it more efficient than Abyssea, most people aren't touching these areas for experience. I would for nostalgia purposes but I'm an OLD player who likes the fun of non-zerg parties.

Garlaige Citadel: While I like not having to run around the whole basement to check for Serket when I'm bored now, having to sneak and invis at Lv90 because if I fall, I die instantly almost from the swarm below just isn't worth it. Also, what happens if poor Wanzo-Unzozo decides he wants to see the Doomed types in the end of that tunnel down there? He's essentially screwed until Lv99 parties escort him. SO, why not put the basement back to the way it was, but move these new monsters into the several rooms that are scattered behind Gates #2 and #3? At Lv75+, we have ways to get behind both gates with less than 4 people, so if we want to go there for experience, we can.

Ranguemont Pass: Why are these things right in the main path? Those 2 rooms on the east side of the map or the entire northern tunnel (Where the 3 Taisais used to sit) can be utilized for these things. A new player working on the rank missions shouldn't be seeing Lv90 creatures on their way up to the northlands where they will only run into level 50 or so creatures.

Fei'Yin: For the most part, from what I've seen, this is the one that seems to be the best overall setup, but putting them on the path to Qu'Bia Arena might have been a bit harsh. You have an entire basement area to work with. I mean you obviously can't hinder the path to the Cloister of Ice either, but there are plenty of areas off the main paths to work with. But I suppose by now, even the players ready for this zone for the first time should understand the need for sneak and invis, so it isn't too terrible.

King Ranperre's Tomb: From the Grounds of Valor pages, I'm going to assume everything is kept pretty close together with the skeletons down by Vrtra here, which is perfect... although I'm curious as to why this zone got limited to just Lv85 and lower creatures while Garlaige Citadel had Lv91+ creatures shoved in it?

Dangruf Wadi/Inner Horutoto Ruins/Outer Horutoto Ruins: Really? Why? I mean, if the stuff didn't aggro, I don't see a problem, but you put freaking Goblins in there. I mean, if you want to put high level goblins anywhere, especially near Bastok, why not inside Newton Movalpolos? I mean it's just sitting right there. In the case of these 3 zones, being so necessary early on for new players, I'd just get rid of these creatures and move them to other zones. If a player doesn't have any of the expansions at this point, do they really need to be Lv76+ anyway?

Toraimarai Canal: I think it's cool they've added Poroggos nearby present day Windurst, but surely there are places we can put these things that doesn't force a poor, unsuspecting artifact hunter to have to be even more extremely cautious. There are plenty of rooms without coffer spawns that can hold these. Wouldn't the Poroggo especially want to stay hidden down in one of these watery rooms just to make sure they aren't discovered by a Windurst extermination team should it be known they live near the capital once again? That is the story right?

Gusgen Mines/Ordelle's Cave/Maze of Shakrami: Again, I don't know why it was that necessary to put stuff in a lower level zone like this. I mean, all 3 of these zones are necessary to be gone through completely just to do some artifact quests or to get the low level RSE gear (not to mention hunting the ??? for the RSE satchet). These zones should also be used as fun "let's get to better know the game" kind of areas for newer players. I know they aren't many, but they do still exist as you guys surely have to be aware and it'll be hard to get even more if people just hear about how impossible to navigate you've made early zones.

Zeruhn Mines: Stuff isn't aggressive, so it's not a big deal.

Crawlers' Nest: I just know I've read the big room where the Strange Apparatus path is, is where the new stuff is. Again, this is where the water elementals easiest to kill for the BLM AF quest are, as well as Chest and Coffer spawns are for other Artifact quests. Yeah it's got the most space to shove things into, but why? Why not put the King Crawlers back where that Scorpion NM is? That room is fairly open. Then there's another room to the north of there where even more stuff can be placed. The Escort quest won't take you past all the high level stuff anymore either then.

Eldieme Necropolis: There are a lot of places this stuff can be put down below and honestly, anyone dropping down below with any sense would have sneak up inside here. Even at 75 1 aggro below for a party of 6, upon dropping down spelled death typically... unless you were a party of PLDs then you might stand a chance. After seeing Poroggos added inside Toraimarai Canal though, I have to ask - why weren't at least Corse added in here or perhaps some Corpselights? Here if the monsters are kept in drop down spots away from the Coffer spawns, I think we're good.

So I guess I should've done better with specifics, but I hope I made things clear enough. The main thing now is to listen to the player base and adjust things to have the least impact on older content. I hope when the test servers are implemented, this is where the players will be catching things before it's given out to the masses.

I would also like to say, start looking at the Rise of the Zilart, Chains of Promathia, Treasures of Aht Urhgan and Wings of the Goddess zones for these things. The Boyahda Tree is massive in Zilart, you have Newton Movalpolos in Promathia, Aydeewa Subturrane in Aht Urhgan, and hey, there's large, currently unused sections of the Crawlers' Nest, Garlaige Citadel, and the Necropolis in the past... in fact, it's the same spots you placed the new high level creatures - at least in the case of the first 2 zones - in the present. Why not use those for these high level creatures?

Ok after seeing this link in another thread ( http://parchmentpaper.blogspot.com/2...here-they.html ), I want to amend my previous post slightly. Apparently in the big open room in the basement of the Crawlers' Nest, nothing is aggressive. That actually makes that path with Olavia a bit easier if that's the case. Toraimarai Canal is just REALLY poorly designed. I mean... why? I can't even remotely begin to dream about a reason as to why you'd do that.

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Originally Posted by Octaviane

The ToAU and Campaign areas would have been a better choice, a more commonsensical progression of mob levels and difficulty than Dungeons and might have breathed some life back into both scenarios.

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This, 100 times this.

Given the huge boost FoV/GoV bonuses give to leveling there's zero incentive to go to the 'new' areas, even the Signet buffs are superior to those in the expansion areas so even if you don't want to fight the hordes over XoV mobs for page bonuses, you're still better off packing into Terrigan etc. .. meanwhile ToAU and WoTG zones are empty.

SE, put FoV/GoV into those, upgrade Sanction and Sigil to be on a par with Signet, give the wide open spaces of [S] a purpose beyond Campaign .. er, wait, silly me, few people Campaigned after the XP nerf, ever fewer after lolyssea .. just give the wide open spaces of [S] a purpose.

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Originally Posted by Krisan

The problem is that all the areas you named are expansion zones, and from a design point of view they wish to keep content like this accessible from the main game. I know, I know, who doesn't have the expansions? Especially Zilart I'm sure you wonder.. And honestly? Probably no one. But that's how they're working. This is the same reason the Abyssean Maws for Scars and Heroes are in the weird places they are - because they wanted to keep everything in the game accessible from vanilla zones.

That's not to say they can't add GoV\FoV to these zones, but it was never an option in their book to make it exclusive to these areas rather than the ones they chose.

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I don't think anyone's saying put GoV ONLY in the expansion areas, I haven't see that said in here I don't think, what people (like me) are asking for is put SOME XoV into the expansion areas which right now are full of mobs and crickets, and almost entirely devoid of players.

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Originally Posted by Kraggy

I don't think anyone's saying put GoV ONLY in the expansion areas, I haven't see that said in here I don't think, what people (like me) are asking for is put SOME XoV into the expansion areas which right now are full of mobs and crickets, and almost entirely devoid of players.

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Actually the person I was directly responding to said "they could have picked better areas than they did" and went on to name off a bunch of expansion zones at the end of his post. I was just saying that they chose the zones they did intentionally - and that's not to say I agree with their reasoning, because I don't. And yeah, I agree they should add GoV to more zones - I even said that at the end of my post.

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

Ah yes how silly of me, because there's no NMs with enhanced movement speed, or have fast attacks, and there's no way the enemies extend beyond the potential distance you can run before you lose sneak. Did I mention these are AF quests? I did? Oh right, I did. Talk about "missing the point in the first place."

Because if I'm gonna help a new player with their first AF quest, they need to be experienced enough to know how to pop and run, right? They won't get one shot if they screw it up, right? "Tractor them" Kthnx, I'm not a BLM and likely not on a job that would be subbing that. So, I have to aggro the whole room to get them up, and probably end up dying myself, unless I'm on thf or subbing thf (also both very unlikely as I'm not a thf) because im being attacked by 8-10 level 100+ ghosts. "Sleep them!" Not a mage. "Come on a job that can do those things" Sorry, don't have those either of those 2 jobs leveled. "So level them, leveling is easy!" Why would I want to level something I wouldn't enjoy, not to mention the inventory space and you, know, lack of ever wanting to use that job. "Level it just for that" No.

You're probably asking yourself what the point of that idiotic paragraph was? I was eliminating any more dumb responses in the pre-emp. Why'd it take me so long to respond? Was waiting for the moment to make a S&G post.

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I was specifically talking about the technique of sneak popping, which when done right, helps to avoid any extra agro other than the nm one wants pulled. Of course, eventually, the nm you pop is going to hit you. The point of sneak popping is to make sure that other mobs don't. You should be giving other agro mobs a wide berth, you should be at the furthest distance that the ??? will allow you to pop at, and you should be moving away from the spawn point as soon as you've clicked or traded to the ???. Ideally, another player should be getting the mob off you ASAP and if things go well, you should have a clean pull. If you walk up to a ??? all willy-nilly, with a mob or mobs clustering about, trade your item, and just stand there.... you deserve get your ass handed to you.

And why not expect a new player to try to sneak pop if that's what's called for and they are the only person that can pop the nm? The timing can be tricky but the concept isn't exactly rocket surgery. It may also be something they have to do again someday. No time to learn like the present as they say.

And it's moot anyway. They changed the ??? spawn location in Fei'Yin. It's at g-8, where Miser Murphy spawns (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Pieuje%27s_Decision). I found this out when I was running through Fei'Yin to help a low-level friend do mission 5-1. I wanted to scope out the terrain to see how a whm could do this fight but the ??? was not in the room with the new IT ghosts.

What was that you were saying about earlier in this thread about doing research before spouting off? While SE might have thrown in a ninja fix to the ???s (and I can't really speak for other af quests but YOU specifically were taking about whm) it's more likely that the concern about the af nms being screwed over by the new monster placement was just more "OMG-The-Sky-Is-Falling" freak-out rhetoric the FFXI community, and especially this forum, has come to be known for.

I still stand by an earlier comment that the monster placement was well advertised before the update and players should have expected the possibility of new agro mobs in the zones listed. When i went out and explored, I kept S/I up so I wouldn't get a surprise asskicking. Is carrying meds or casting spells really so difficult for the majority of the player base?

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Originally Posted by Aldersyde

I was specifically talking about the technique of sneak popping, which when done right, helps to avoid any extra agro other than the nm one wants pulled. Of course, eventually, the nm you pop is going to hit you. The point of sneak popping is to make sure that other mobs don't. You should be giving other agro mobs a wide berth, you should be at the furthest distance that the ??? will allow you to pop at, and you should be moving away from the spawn point as soon as you've clicked or traded to the ???. Ideally, another player should be getting the mob off you ASAP and if things go well, you should have a clean pull. If you walk up to a ??? all willy-nilly, with a mob or mobs clustering about, trade your item, and just stand there.... you deserve get your ass handed to you.

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Thanks for the lesson that was blatantly obvious and completely missed the point (again). Not repeating myself on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Aldersyde

And why not expect a new player to try to sneak pop if that's what's called for and they are the only person that can pop the nm? The timing can be tricky but the concept isn't exactly rocket surgery. It may also be something they have to do again someday. No time to learn like the present as they say.

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Ah yes, because they need to get one-shot now if they screw it up. Is it hard or is it easy? If it's hard, then no, I don't expect them to know how to do it. If it's easy, then no, they shouldn't have to get one-shotted and I should be able to save them. Level 50 quests should not involve level 100 monsters.

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Originally Posted by Aldersyde

And it's moot anyway. They changed the ??? spawn location in Fei'Yin. It's at g-8, where Miser Murphy spawns (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Pieuje%27s_Decision). I found this out when I was running through Fei'Yin to help a low-level friend do mission 5-1. I wanted to scope out the terrain to see how a whm could do this fight but the ??? was not in the room with the new IT ghosts.

What was that you were saying about earlier in this thread about doing research before spouting off? While SE might have thrown in a ninja fix to the ???s (and I can't really speak for other af quests but YOU specifically were taking about whm) it's more likely that the concern about the af nms being screwed over by the new monster placement was just more "OMG-The-Sky-Is-Falling" freak-out rhetoric the FFXI community, and especially this forum, has come to be known for.

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Moot = now. Not when I made the post, depicting what I had actually gone and seen. The ??? was still amongst the level 100+ mobs. So, please, feel free to falsely claim that I hadn't done my research because my entire post wasn't based upon personal experience at the time (I wonder why I was SPECIFICALLY talking about whm?). Ah, the "you suck because I said so" rhetoric of the morons who don't actually go out and check what they're talking about before their first post trying to discredit some one else's skill, that was completely irrelevant to the point (because I wasn't the one who needed to pop the NM).

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Originally Posted by Aldersyde

I still stand by an earlier comment that the monster placement was well advertised before the update and players should have expected the possibility of new agro mobs in the zones listed. When i went out and explored, I kept S/I up so I wouldn't get a surprise asskicking. Is carrying meds or casting spells really so difficult for the majority of the player base?

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Yeah, kthx, we know, we foresaw this problem, posted about it, and nothing was done until at least a week or more post-update. Are non-lolworthy questions and intelligent sentences that don't equate to "i have no basis for this, but you suck and don't use S/I to walk around, which is irrelevant to NM popping but I'll say it anyway to try to insult you passively and falsely" really so difficult to form?

/S&G post #2.

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

Moot = now. Not when I made the post, depicting what I had actually gone and seen. The ??? was still amongst the level 100+ mobs. So, please, feel free to falsely claim that I hadn't done my research because my entire post wasn't based upon personal experience at the time (I wonder why I was SPECIFICALLY talking about whm?). Ah, the "you suck because I said so" rhetoric of the morons who don't actually go out and check what they're talking about before their first post trying to discredit some one else's skill, that was completely irrelevant to the point (because I wasn't the one who needed to pop the NM).

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Moot=always. Your "personal experience" is in direct conflict with person who edited the wiki to say the ??? had been moved to the large central room at g/h-8 as of May 10, 2011. Go check the history of the page's edits. You're delusional or a liar.

And ya, level 50 quests shouldn't involve level 100 mobs. Sometimes the game gets screwed up and you just have and the game is made harder because of it. The two choices you have is to find a way to do it under the new circumstances or be a quitter then run here to complain about it. I've done whm af and the ??? was previously towards the opening to the hallway (where you would have fought it so the other shadows in the room didn't link to it). It could have been easily sneak pulled with some bloody patience and a someone who had the wherewithal to actually pull it off the popper.