Truly awful idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorva
You want to gimp a RDM spell to benefit other jobs when the spell was intended to augment a job that was starved of said buffs since they were removed from the armour they were on to make way for BLU.
I do however somewhat agree with it being able to target others, though I'd sooner make it targetable but with the negative of only RDM's natural (skill + merits) enhancing skill counting when not self-cast, so while RDM gets ~30% TA others will get 10%, though I'd rather that also come with RDM being put back on the light-style armour it used to be on before BLU, or the addition of other spells that augment RDM's abilities, the way they were originally envisioned, for example finally adding Faith and Bravery as job-abilities (not spells) would be amazing.
Similar to RUN's Inquartata but for Evasion, I agree though maybe similar should be added as a trait to NIN instead, though this topic is about RDM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Always hated this personally, I know it was to give WHM something unique (in being AoE), but they already have it, they get more gear, and even MDB tacked on, should have been AoE for both RDM and WHM in the first place, with maybe single-target being added with RUN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Agreed entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
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07-13-2016, 07:54 PMJakuk
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07-14-2016, 12:18 AMUrmomThe problem is people want the exploit level playing lol. Which granted isn't a new thing but most of the times in the past it wasn't so exclusively soQuote:
Originally Posted by Thorva
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07-14-2016, 01:22 AMRydal
Hyrist: As mentioned before by Urmom, Temper proc rate is based on the CURRENT Enhancing skill. RDM has the highest Enhancing skill and gear/job gifts to help boost it to levels others jobs cannot hope to reach (melee SCH? melee WHM? any other job would have to sub SCH in Light Arts to come close and even then...). Making Temper castable on party members would still allow us to enjoy a significantly higher multi-attack proc than other jobs. The only thing is RDM lacks TA gear (outside of augmented Taeon and some accessories) to keep the gap as large as it currently is. This can be fixed by your own suggestion of putting RDM and BLU on the same gear set.
Thorva: Phalanx II right now is an awful spell. It scales horribly compared to Phalanx I. It needs to be revamped. I would hate for Temper II, an awesome spell, to become inferior just so we can cast it on people. Thanks but no thanks. Self TA is better than DA on everyone.
I will say that RDM should still be on all healing gear that it shares with WHM, BRD and SCH (Chironic/Kaykaus anyone?) as well as mage gear it shares with BLM SCH and GEO (Merlinic but why wasn't RDM put on Barkarole Earring?). BLU are not on these sets and they don't make sense on BLU. Keeping them off of Adhemar, Herculean and all melee Ambuscade really hurt melee. I don't see them adding RDM to any past melee gear so this is something we'll have to look forward to. -
07-14-2016, 02:57 AMThorva
I had thought about the concept of temper being weaker being cast on others myself, I personally didn't throw the idea out there because I highly doubt SE would ever consider making coding like that.
I also thought and believe I mentioned letting rdm keep temper II as triple attack and lowering the potency of temper in general. This would be the alternative to creating the phalanx 1/2 system with temper. I know a lot of people that think it is a bad idea just because they want temper II to be triple attack and have mass potency. I fully understand they want this, I respect that. However, as mentioned before these are ideas to get rdm into the higher end content, not our personal feelings. I never said I would personally enjoy losing 25% triple attack spell. I just would like to see rdm have a reason to be invited again.
Rydal, I know phalanx 2 is terrible, I don't have it merited, never merited it in the past and never will merit it on it's current system. Phalanx 2 caps out at 36 dmg reduced while phalanx 1 caps out at 35 dmg reduced (that is without phalanx gear bonus) 1 point of dmg will never be worth 5/5 merits. Hyrist came up with a great idea for phalanx II, something that I would willing to put merits into.
Somene mentioned rdm should be on all cure and nuke gear, I disagree. Rdm does have a lower MaB trait than blm so it shouldn't always get the top tier nuke options. In the same respect blm shouldn't be on the top tier m. acc options either. Also don't think rdm needs to be on all the top tier cure gear, Vanya is plenty good, and I cap cure power as well as cure potency and cure received because of my mixture of vanya attire. Gives me capped hp when I cure on lights day/weather. 1 hp to full hp off cure 4, otherwise I cure 4 in the pt/ally in the 1.2k range. Not really needed anything beyond that. Besides Kaykaus is almost as ugly as vanya. -
07-14-2016, 12:28 PMHyrist
No Throva, you keep missing the point.
You're arguing there'd be no change in no change in the 135 play style. I'm talking about making the 135 play style valid for the 145+ content, front and back line.
You and Rydal are both wrong in that making Temper II party cast won't outright prevent that from happening. First, Rydal, unless you're saying Protey is wrong, Temper II's potency is based on enhancing skill at time of cast. He was the one that confirmed the research on that. It's not based off current Enhancing Skill the same way Enspell II's factor. Unless I mistook your wording, as that's what I took away form your statement.
This means the potency we get from Temper II, we give to other players. We'll never have a native Triple Attack, even with gear, superior to that of anyone who has a natural trait in that in addition to our cast. Nobody would let us Melee in favor of making sure every melee and tank would have that buff up 24/7.
I don't believe we need to give out Temper II to be get into parties. The fact that you have to nerf it acknowledges that you know it's overboard to begin with. If we're going that far, I'd recommend that instead we boost Haste II to cap off Magic Haste on its own, as it'll boil down to effectually the same thing without A) Taking away from something that's pretty much RDM specific by design. Or B) Increasing our cast time/load.
Honestly, I feel, in general, that for us to be offensive support casting feels a bit contradictory to the opportunity we have here. There IS a need in parties we could fill, and it's not spreading more damage boosts - its a massive lack in defense Melee have against these enemies. General adjustments to level difference should help the offensive aspects of what classes need. Instead, we would be quite useful in enhancing the defensive aspects of the party/alliance.
Thorva, you have the idea of utilizing more tiers of spells. I have to begin by the paper-thin excuse SE put up earlier as disclaimer: They say they don't have the resources for adding more spells. Yes, the graphics are there, but I'm wondering if it has more to do with spell limits in coding, then the actual graphics. I don't know, I don't speak for them. I just feel like the disclaimer should be said, even if we were to speculate this route as a possible solution ,it might outright be disqualified.
That said, I like the idea of a catching up our other tier spells. The trade off here is that they would have to redo our merits to compensate. Make the Debuff II line a Scroll spell, and transform our merits into "Paralyze Effect +", etc. Which, honestly, should have been what they did for us in the first place, IMO. This way there's no conflict between the spells you had to merit for, and the spells we'd get past 75. The merit spells pinned us in a corner, development wise.
So when you think of what we've gotten defensively. A flat 15% chance of Physical attacks to be evaded regardless of enemy accuracy, a large (10-15%) Damage reduction on a spell without need for gear (Enabling classes to not have to gear as much Damage reduction) Fixing Slow's effect on both Attack frequency and possible TP gain, and buffs to Bio III (or even higher tiers with the Tier adjustment you have in mind) - we could be come a premiere defensive buffer/debuffer in a situation where that sort of thing is desperately needed. - That could be our in, and you'd only be adding to the class while doing so, instead of adjusting something down to make it accommodate for a party. And again, if we feel that isn't enough, boosting Haste II could close that gap real quick, and free up other support spells for other stats in a melee DPS group.
Balancing Dual Wield with Warrior subjob and appropriate enspells - I can feel your hesitation on that. As a compromise, perhaps we can give Enspell II line its own native attack boost on top of fixing it. It would not be as strong as /warrior, of course, but that plus the gear fixes might be enough to surmount the Attack starvation we get from level adjustments. Only thing is that steals thunder from Endark - not that I particularly mind that, but it could bother DRK mains. -
07-15-2016, 12:27 AMRydal
A couple things:
1. I guess I should clarify. Currently, Temper is self cast only, so whether we are in Enhancing skill gear or not, we have the highest Enhancing skill of all jobs and the gear to support that. If Temper were made castable on others, it would go by that job's current enhancing skill level, not our own. It would have a base rate at zero enhancing skill (which is 5% for Temper I) since most jobs don't have enhancing natively and only RUN, WHM, SCH, BLM, and anyone subbing SCH in light arts would get higher. This would still keep us at the top of the Temper Totem pole. This would also make it less of a need (but still a minor need). We would still enjoy a 30ish% TA rate, while a job like WAR would only get 5%.
2. Capping magic Haste with just haste II is unnecessary. Haste III or bust. Since new spells are not possible, we should move past this. As for making merit spells RDM exclusive Scrolls, YES! YES! Do this immediately! Group 2 merits could be changed to Job Traits, like Bravery, Faith, maybe an enhancement to Composure, Fast cast or Magic Accuracy. They could even adjust Group 1 to having potency+ merits, consolidating Magic accuracy merits into one group, and maybe increasing enspell potency interms of power and accuracy bonus.
3. Native Dual Wield is a little too much I think. Traditionally, RDM are not powerful attackers and dual wielding doesn't make sense for the job. Even in other FF games it is out of place. Focusing on traits and fixing existing spells is a more likely outcome for any improvement to the job. They should fix what we already have and add traits that wouldn't take away from our subs. Fixing Enspell II is another good starting point as you mentioned. If Enspell II granted some sort of accuracy or power bonus, and worked on every hit (offhand/multi attacks), they would be much better. -
07-15-2016, 09:20 AMThorvaI am beginning to think you are just trying to argue for the sake of arguing. I understand what you are saying, I have understood what you are saying, I have made a thread based off the same concept, I have tried to introduce ideas that this would work. All the ideas I have stated as well as you have built on I.E. The % based blind, are all ways to make 135 set ups work in the 145 content. Ways to mitigate the dmg, ways to bring in useful rdm debuffs, ways to increase dmg for melee while melee are still wearing -dt gear, ways for melee and rdm to be invited in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
Again, you still disagree temper should be cast on party/ally, that is your opinion maybe the opinion of a few other people, as a whole I think more people would actually want to be able to cast it on others. Making temper II double attack and able to target on party members is a very solid idea that would call for rdm invites. Period, there is no way around that. People would want rdm in melee groups for that reason alone. Rdm using temper II (triple attack) on self with aeonic/emp +269 skill will never close the gap between rdm and other DD options. Rdm lacks entirely too much attack to be worthwhile in 145 content. How do I know this, well fully buffed both my rdm and my drk can melee at a 90% acc rate on t3 reisenjima. Rdm however can't deal enough solid dmg to be considered taking as a melee slot. That spell is essentially useless on rdm for anything in 145+ range. More than half the time a solid top tier rdm won't have enough attack in tp/ws sets to be remotely close to considered taking as a melee slot in 135 content. This again makes temper 1 and 2 worthless for a rdm in 135 content. Dropping down to a vagary lowest possible level run, a rdm decked out, with temper 1/2 will still never be a melee in that scenario. Occasionally you might go in to incursion as a melee rdm, and a melee rdm on a 124 incursion is still so pathetically weak compared to other melee jobs, it is better to dual wield max malevolence and just t5 single target nuke in most content outside exp pt.
Literally the only way for rdm to "close the gap with temper" would be to put rdm on gear made for war and drk to compensate for the lack of innate attack. So, I repeat, the next best option is to simply make temper a spell you can target party with to increase the desire for rdm.
Melee rdm, is not remotely close to comparable, with 51%+ triple attack gear/temper it will never close a solid gap. Putting yourself in that much triple attack gear severely nerfs rdm own acc options. So now you are down to a top end enhance temper potency, let's throw out a massive 30% from temper, the rest of rdm gear is dual wield and acc to even touch anything in 135. 30% triple attack on rdm with the current melee gear options as well as the lack of natural attack on rdm using +269 aeonic/empy weapons. (Since savage blade and cdc heavily benefit from TP bonus and the +50 dex of almace) You would be lucky to come within 500 dps of a mid tier blu in the same lvl of content. Highly unlikely rdm will even get that close considering I have seen mid-tier blu putting out 2k+ dps, top tier DD pulling way ahead of that, underbuffed situations on drk I have been in the 2k+ range while in -dt hybrid sets.
RDM CAN NOT, AND WILL NOT, EVER CLOSE THE GAP JUST BECAUSE IT HAS TEMPER!
Just isn't possible, rdm is a jack of all, it doesn't come close. Even running MB off sc, a rdm will not be able to compete as a DD slot, this delusion of thinking making temper able to be cast on others will magically take away from the melee rdm is capable of now just isn't mathematically possible, it doesn't change rdm in 135 content, it doesn't change rdm in 145 content. Even if we got super buffed so that melee rdm could wear teaon or we got thrown on herc gear, a rdm would never be able to deal enough dmg on 145 content in the time allotted. It can help, it can set up sc for jobs that have the gear and the innate attack, but this selfish "don't give away my temper to other jobs" just isn't logical thinking. That is saying, "No, I don't want to be a team player and make fights easier/faster because I want to have a great spell all to myself when I can't deal enough dmg to make a real difference."
More than 90% of the time a rdm is melee is either solo or for apex, nobody says, "hey we are going to do Sovereign Behemoth, Sarama or Vagary lets get a rdm melee because how great that temper II is on rdm." I am willing to bet you would get to melee if you could cast that spell on other people, you would already in the party, you have a decent melee set (I assume) other DD would greatly benefit from the spell add it all up and you will be there swinging a sword in battles you can't go as melee now.
Rdm is NOT using the spell in 135 content, rdm is NOT using the spell in 145 content. Why not make it so the spell is getting used.
Barspells, someone was stating well they don't need a buff because they are self target.... Well they are also accession-able and rdm still has the highest enhancing magic skill as well as the best enhancing magic gear. There is zero reason why whm can get higher barspell than rdm except the fact SE just plain hasn't thought things through.
The use of new spells already in .dat files, SE already stating new spells because they didn't have the resources for the creation of the animation. The spells are already in the system and have the animation. It would take less time to make codes for the spells than to make these stupid mounts and the quest lines to unlock them.
Haste II does not need to be buffed, rdm does not need haste 3. Haste 2 is at 30% already, the only haste that can beat it is Dunna or Idris geo. (And I won't go on my rant as to why I think geo needs to be nerfed, but that haste absolutely needs to be nerfed, heck I was mad when SE gave blu effatic flutter and smn Hastega II at the same potency) Magic haste cap is 43.75%, max haste between gear/ja/magic is 80%, Haste III or boosted Haste II would be broken, Drk would only need 12.25% haste in gear with LR up, that makes a massive gain in gear considering you can get that off a belt alone. There are so many ways gear can be altered. I know, I have gearsets that drop in haste based on my buffs, if I am magic capped and LR is down I still only need 17.25% haste in gear when I use apoc.
Higher levels of buffs for the buffs we already have only make other jobs obsolete. This is the very reason I have been trying to come up with simple unique ideas for rdm specifically that are not shared with other jobs so that people have a reason to invite a rdm. Some of these very ideas would also allow the opportunity to bring back jobs like brd and melee DD.
We don't need more haste, we need the haste jobs have to be reigned in, reign in the haste and you force the need for more jobs.
(I felt the same way when I saw smite being given to drk, we didn't need smite, we needed acc and something to mitigate the AoE in 145+, especially now I am starting to see drk all over the place, I get messages on ffxiah and in game all day long about gear choices)
Esnpell on rdm I think should be on par with enlight/endark, there is no reason a rdm (the ones that first had enspell) can't be hitting 150-200 dmg enspell. (That would close the gap way more than temper) Now I realize stacking all the gear possible can get rdm above 150, but that means you have to keep that gear on. Enspell should be based off the cast on rdm as it is on drk and pld, I believe that was mentioned several times.
Rdm getting innate dual wield. I am on the fence about this, pld and rdm have similarities when it comes to melee, so many times I often look at one or the other in terms of keeping my mind on the balance. Both jobs seem to be sword and shield and is visibly seen with rdm access to beatific shield. I, as a rdm, would love to have innate dual wield, but I think it starts tipping the balance, especially if they recode enspells for more dmg, or added effects like we mentioned on page one of this thread. Although something like avatar favor on rdm enspells would be kinda nice, self buff only,
Enfire II; Triple attack (this being triple attack would counter the complaint of temper II becoming target-able double attack instead of self triple attack)
Enblizzard II; Increase MaB bonus
Enaero II; Increases both m. eva and physical eva, (both of them since rdm doesn't get a fenrir like enspell)
Enstone II; Increase def
Enthunder II; Increased critical hit dmg/chance
Enwater II; Increase magic accuracy or magic defense (I would personally prefer m. def)
All of the Enspell potency would work on a sliding scale based off Enhancing Magic Skill AT THE TIME OF THE CAST not something that diminishes the moment you change gear and not that decay crap either. Can use the current enspell 1 damage scale, lower dmg per hit, but works on multi-hit. -
07-15-2016, 09:39 AMHyrist
@Rydal
1. If we were to make this the calculation, it might be feasible, but the spell itself wouldn't really be enough of an improvement to justify its use in an offensive support aspect, especially if it is being single-cast. This also doesn't work in practice in our existing mechanics. Phalanx 2 Works on time of cast on target based off the caster's Enhancing. This would be the coding formula they would likely have to copy in order to change its function. If you're wanting it to calculate the way you want it to here without re-designing the current coding, you'd skip the party/alliance target aspect and just make the spell Accession-able - that's the way it would work as you intend. (That's the way it functions with Accession Enspells.) Which, honestly, I think I'd be ok with at that point, especially as we kinda lack in truly powerful spells to Accession.
2. We don't need Haste III. And we can Balance Haste II's percentage caps magic haste if we tie it's bonuses to Gifts. We pretty much don't get much of relevance past 1200. We could probably squeeze in something like Haste Effect bonuses there without harming anything balance wise. Just cause we were given a limit does not mean we can't work within it. As far as any arguments to the effect of cap haste on one job is broken, I'm just going to point at any other support job and go "What do they offer offensively besides haste?" And buff it if needed. We're not invalidating any jobs, we are, in fact, enabling them to use other buffs, improving the overall dynamic.
3. Enspell II's giving a large accuracy bonus would be thematically correct with Red Mage's Accuracy emphasis in Composure, allowing us to possibly gear more Attack in. So between that and Gear fixes, we could make our Melee more effective in the 145 game. We also have to keep in mind that level difference calculations are being assessed so that may also help things. I do agree that Enspell IIs should function as enhanced versions of Enspell I's. They were originally designed to work as a gap filler for the pre 75 leveling climb, but it was implemented way too late to be effective. It can be safely repourposed now, especially as it's supposed to be a higher tier of Enspell I's and simply don't function that way.'
Edit: Thorva's just on ignore. I'm tired of correcting every single misinterpretation they stumble over. And the ego is overbearing. "It's, just your opinion, man." works both ways. -
07-15-2016, 09:52 AMThorvaFine by me, you obviously lack any knowledge of how 145+ content works and think that a few minor changes would allow rdm to go melee in 145 content. There is literally no way rdm can melee in 145 content even if you nerfed all the 145 content down to 135 content. Nobody would take a rdm, you are delusional. Tired of debating with your emotions, lack of ability to see things as a whole, and no concept of balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
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07-17-2016, 07:34 AMJakuktbh I think most the jobs merits need to be adjusted, for RDM I was thinking along the lines of something similar to, based on the second 2-hour being changed:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
GROUP I
Magic Accuracy
Increases Magic Accuracy by 3 per level.
Convert Recast
-30 seconds Per level
Augments Composure Effect
Grants +10% chance of spells cast under Composure resisting Dispel effects per level. (Self and Party cast)
Enhancing Magic Duration
Increases duration of enhancing spells cast on self or party by 3% per level.
Enfeebling Magic potency
Increases potency of enfeebling magic cast by 2% per level.
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GROUP II
Faith (JA)
Recast 5:00 / Duration 30:00
Improves users affinity with the magical arts.
Grants: Magic Accuracy +3%, Magic Attack Bonus +3%, Fast Cast +4%, Spell Duration: 5% / Magic Accuracy +15%, Magic Attack Bonus +15%, Fast Cast +20%, Spell Duration: 25%
Reduces: Accuracy - 1%, Attack -1%, Combat Haste -1% / Accuracy -5%, Attack -5%, Combat Haste -5%
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Bravery (JA)
Recast 5:00 / Duration 30:00
Improves users combat affinity.
Grants: Accuracy +2%, Attack +3%, Combat Haste: 2% / Accuracy: 10%, Attack: +15%, Combat Haste: 10%
Reduces: Magic Accuracy -2%, Magic Attack Bonus - 1%, Fast Cast -1% / Magic Accuracy - 10%, Magic Attack Bonus -5%, Fast Cast -5%
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Enhancer's Gift (JA)
Recast 2:00 / Duration: 1:00 or spell cast
Allows self-cast spells to target a party member.
(Spells potency will be based only on the casters skill, equipment will not be counted)
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Enfeebler's Might (JA)
Recast 3:00 / Duration: 1:00 or spell cast
Greatly increases potency and accuracy of the next enfeebling spell cast.
(Increases Magic Accuracy and Potency +100% of the next enfeebling spell cast.)
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Might be too much, but maybe similar.
I think their shield level means they were really not intended for shields and it was just something they gave to fit the "semi-decent but not masters of combat", Beatific Shield was more an exception to the crap shields they were usually placed on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorva
That said I don't know if I'd give them straight dual wield though, maybe due to their dagger and sword skill being the same, maybe something like a Fencer uses in a Sword and Parrying Dagger, could balance it by putting some defensive stats/magical buffs on the dagger and dmg on the sword.
Something like:
Fencers Stance (job trait)
Allows you to equip a sword and a dagger.
Then you could add Daggers like:
Fencing Dagger
Def:30 DMG:95 Delay:183
DEX +19 AGI +19 STR +19 VIT +19 HP+50
Dagger Skill +242 Damage Taken -2% Parrying Chance +5%
Spell Interruption Rate -5%
Level 99 RDM