Can we have a summary of the complaints that have led SE to declare war on DRK?

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Originally Posted by Slaxx

Are you seriously comparing ANYTHING in an MMO to the rise of Nazi Germany? Get some perspective.

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For the uninitiated, Slaxx is referring to this poem by pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) who wrote about the persecution of people group after group because the anterior persecuted group did and say nothing about the posterior because it wasn't them (Care of Wikipedia):

"First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

"Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

"Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

"Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me."

Note, not a single line in that poem speaks of the rise of Nazi Germany. This poem can apply to so many things. In this instance, it applies to the progressive giming of jobs by SE.

The analogy I was trying to make is that SE will start on jobs people consider insignificant, like bst. People will not complain because they are not bst. Then they'll nerf smn. People will not compain because they are not smn. Now they're gimping drk. And there's no-one left to complain for you.

We either stand and fight together or get gimped alone.

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Originally Posted by Malthar

You don't get it, do you? The fact that very few stood up against the bst nerf made it easier to nerf other jobs just as easily. i.e. drk.

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No, it seems you don't get it, BST had a few changes, and none of them destroyed the jobs utility, if anyone ever took a BST somewhere for TH rather than a THF they were a fool. If you wanted TH, you took a THF, if you want TH now, you still take a THF. DRK is facing something very different, right now when you want non-elemental damage you take a DRK, if changes are made to Twilight Scythe to remove that feature, you also are removing DRK from this position. So far as I know the only other 3 forms of non-elemental damage that exist are Req, Murasamemaru and Meteor. Meteor requires to many of a single job, one of which right now has little use outside of procing, so that is not a viable option. Req suffers from being a one-handed weapon skill, thus leaving it weak and only does non-elemental damage during the WS. Murasamemaru only works on WSs, and is nearly impossible to obtain let alone the fact it only works on WSs so TPing attacks are not effected, mobs like Slimes, Flans, or Hydras(when using PB) making your damage on everything else weak.

The difference between these two things should be fairly obvious, BST losing a few levels of TH was an inconvenience for BSTs, Twilight Scythe losing its non-elemental damage would be a loss to its utility, and a unique feature to its melee damage. WAR, DRK, DRG, and SAM, all have slight differences in a zerg, which is what the game is as of right now, and the biggest difference DRK has, is non-elemental damage. SAM has WS spam and high TP gain, WAR has a crit WS, and DRG has self survival as well as a pet.

Another thing about this change, is not so much about DRK, but rather the Twilight gear itself. Each piece is special in a way. The knife was the first piece of gear with Quad attack, it also has a 100% drain rate of 5HP/MP/TP, which is fairly unique for a weapon. Twilight Cloak has an unique spell all to itself that can not be cast without it. Twilight Helm and Mail have Auto-Reraise. Twilight Cape increases the bonus from weather and day. Twilight Belt was the only item without something really unique tied to it. Scythe's special power is the non-elemental damage, you can argue its the Death procs, but those are few and far between, and can not effect a NM anyways, where as the others have their effects active no matter what. I think it somewhat ruins the item itself to have that damage taken away, especially seeing as the rest of the Twilight gear still has a use, while that one would become worthless overnight.

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First they come for your neighbors...
I see they've taken your neighbors but haven't come for you yet.

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You see, I main RDM, I have felt the sting of being great, and then being turned to trash. This little saying means nothing to me here, because the BST nerf on TH had nothing to do with this, and is entirely different. Now if they nerfed BSTs damage, then MNKs damage, then WARs damage, and now were coming for DRKs damage, that would be another story, I could understand that comparison, but this is two things that have nothing to do with one another.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

No, it seems you don't get it, BST had a few changes, and none of them destroyed the jobs utility, if anyone ever took a BST somewhere for TH rather than a THF they were a fool.

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No, it seems you don't get it at all. It doesn't matter the magnitude of the nerf. It matters that the nerf was done, period, and very few complained. When bst was nerfed did you complain? No! You probably said, "Good! They deserved it!" And now your job is getting nerfed. Who will now say, "Good! They deserved it!"

Either we stand and fight together or get nerfed alone.

Dark Knight is not being nerfed. Some of you need to read the development notes more closely. One part of the Twilight scythe argument comes from a few JP who are unhappy that there aren't more Non-Elemental options available for other jobs. That does not indicate that DRK is going to be nerfed.

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Originally Posted by Malthar

For the uninitiated, Slaxx is referring to this poem by pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) who wrote about the persecution of people group after group because the anterior persecuted group did and say nothing about the posterior because it wasn't them (Care of Wikipedia):

"First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

"Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

"Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

"Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me."

Note, not a single line in that poem speaks of the rise of Nazi Germany. This poem can apply to so many things. In this instance, it applies to the progressive giming of jobs by SE.

The analogy I was trying to make is that SE will start on jobs people consider insignificant, like bst. People will not complain because they are not bst. Then they'll nerf smn. People will not compain because they are not smn. Now they're gimping drk. And there's no-one left to complain for you.

We either stand and fight together or get gimped alone.

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The opening paragraph of your link states that it is about the rise to power of the Nazi party. You are over-reacting to such a level I can barely fathom it. Again, get some perspective.

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Originally Posted by Slaxx

The opening paragraph of your link states that it is about the rise to power of the Nazi party. You are over-reacting to such a level I can barely fathom it. Again, get some perspective.

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Whoosh! What was that?!
That was the idea going over your head.

This is what you should take away from my post:

We either stand together and fight and get nerfed alone.

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Originally Posted by Malthar

When bst was nerfed did you complain? No! You probably said, "Good! They deserved it!" And now your job is getting nerfed. Who will now say, "Good! They deserved it!"

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Except, DRK isn't my job, I play both BST and DRK about the same amount, I think the BST nerf was well deserved due to what was nerfed about it, I think DRK is not deserved, due to what is being potentially targeted.

The nerf itself matters much more than you seem to think. I play SCH a ton, probably my second most played job, next to my RDM, recently it has actually been my most played job. At the same time, I actually look forward to the Embrava 'nerf' even though it targets that job I play. Why? Because I made a non-bias choice on the matter to see how I think it will effect the game and other jobs as a whole not only itself. My choice here is no different, I feel that if Twilight was to lose its non-elemental damage effects, it would hurt the game as a whole.

@Malthar: You are either trolling or you are really convinced that DRK is getting nerfed. What is giving you that notion?

I get your point. I think the overblown hyperbole is all out of proportion to the perceived problem. What I took away from your post is that you have no perspective. A simple "slippery slope" argument would have been far more appropriate. Trying to turn fairly routine job nerfs/buffs into some kind of "United we stand" cause is making you look foolish.

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Originally Posted by Malthar

We either stand together and fight and get nerfed alone.

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Rather we should base our opinions on nerfs off of our ideals of what is best for the game, not any single job. We should work together, yes, but not to halt all forms of nerfs, rather to improve the game, if some are needed, then let them come to pass. As I said, I believe Embrava should be nerfed even though it is effectively nerfing SCH which is one of my most played jobs.