So why do we have the worst Espells?

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Except that our arbitrary criteria is the precedent set by every other spell line in the game... Every other spell with a 2 after it's name, does the job of the spell with no number next to its name, better...

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This is FFXI, not law school; they can do whatever the hell they want.

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It's actually DAMAGE being determined at the time of the strike as opposed to the time of the cast. for what sane reason should you reward someone for TPing in their enhancing skill build?

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When the target takes little to no physical damage and/or increased magical damage? This was also the correct way to Ceremonial Dagger things to death before the level cap increase kinda killed that strategy.

A little imagination goes a long way~

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Originally Posted by Doombringer

It's actually DAMAGE being determined at the time of the strike as opposed to the time of the cast to. for what sane reason should you reward someone for TPing in their enhancing skill build?

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If it were possible to find +Enspell equipment paired with Haste or Acc bonuses, or if Enspells granted an Acc and/or Minus-Delay bonus, or if Enspells converted physical damage into magical damage of the corresponding spell, then it wouldn't be a bad thing.

But, since none of the above is the case, calculating damage on strike turns out to be sloppy design intending to promote gear-horading but forcing the player to suffer mediocrity.

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Originally Posted by Vicious

Besides, if you're single-wielding, they are better damage than Enspell I by a very wide margin.

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No it isn't.

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Originally Posted by Vicious

When the target takes little to no physical damage and/or increased magical damage?

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Nuke it.

Nevermind that Requiscat shits all over that entire argument. Sitting in Haste gear with Enspells and spamming Requiscat even if it only had 1 merit would be far faster than sitting in full enhancing gear to appease to Enspell IIs.

You're grasping straws here and it shows. Enspell IIs are terribly designed and it's deafly obvious. That's why no one cares about them. And anyone with a decent bit of knowledge shouldn't care about them. Enspell Is are better in every feasible way.

I tend to use tier 2 when i'm fighting something that i need to keep my hp up on. I'll use it to help with that little extra damage and ride drain samba 2 for all my other attacks to help alleviate the amount of curing needed. That's really the only time i use tier 2s. The original "idea" may have sounded good on paper but in execution it is found lacking.

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Originally Posted by Carth

Nuke it.

Nevermind that Requiscat shits all over that entire argument. Sitting in Haste gear with Enspells and spamming Requiscat even if it only had 1 merit would be far faster than sitting in full enhancing gear to appease to Enspell IIs.

You're grasping straws here and it shows. Enspell IIs are terribly designed and it's deafly obvious. That's why no one cares about them. And anyone with a decent bit of knowledge shouldn't care about them. Enspell Is are better in every feasible way.

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What if you need all of your MP + Sanguine Blade to survive?

It sounds to me like you've never melee'd anything harder than Easy Prey. You do realize that it's entirely possible to equip hybrid sets, such as one where you still cap haste while using Enhancing Skill gear in other slots? Or maybe somebody has more than one job leveled, and does not have Requiescat merited?

I'm not grasping at straws; it's a niche line of spells with niche uses. If you lack the imagination to see where they're useful, that's your problem not mine. Also, how do you figure Enspell I competes with Enspell II when single-wielding? You would need to average a little less than 2 hits per round for them to even break even, and the only way that's happening is if you're using a OA2~4 sword... and if that's your weapon of choice, you have bigger problems.

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Originally Posted by Vicious

What if you need all of your MP + Sanguine Blade to survive?

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Change your job.

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It sounds to me like you've never melee'd anything harder than Easy Prey.

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I melee'd ever since 2004. I melee'd on VT Sky mobs as /WAR when that was the main party camp. I melee'd on ToAU colibiri (IT/VT), I melee'd in Abyssea, I melee'd multiple NMs including Voidwalker NMs. I have far more credibility than you do.

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You do realize that it's entirely possible to equip hybrid sets, such as one where you still cap haste while using Enhancing Skill gear in other slots? Or maybe somebody has more than one job leveled, and does not have Requiescat merited?

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If you don't have Requiescat leveled, you should have Almace. If you don't have Almace, why the fuck are you meleeing on RDM?

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Also, how do you figure Enspell I competes with Enspell II when single-wielding?

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Enspell I's allow you to melee in Haste/atk gear while gaining the full potency of your enhancing gear. That's why.

EDIT: Oh yeah, there's Temper and Double/Triple attack gear as well.

You've clearly never parsed your damage with enspell I vs II, so I wouldn't go on about who has credibility and who doesn't lol

Also, "Change your job" ? You do realize that completely invalidates any argument you make for or against RDM melee in any and all capacity, right? This is precisely why Enspell IIs are valuable; any situation where you're trying for max damage on RDM (/NIN, Enspell I, casting as little as possible), you could increase your damage by simply changing your job. Enspell II is valuable when you're meleeing in a support role with /WHM or /SCH and casting is your primary role... and you can get even more benefit out of them by using, say, Enfire II while you Accession Enwater onto your party.

Like I said before, lack of imagination.

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Originally Posted by Aethon

I tend to use tier 2 when i'm fighting something that i need to keep my hp up on. I'll use it to help with that little extra damage and ride drain samba 2 for all my other attacks to help alleviate the amount of curing needed. That's really the only time i use tier 2s. The original "idea" may have sounded good on paper but in execution it is found lacking.

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This is the only argument FOR current enspell2 that holds any water; sambas. And personally, I don't even like THIS argument. I feel like it holds the rest of the job back for fear of hurting this one setup.

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Originally Posted by Vicious

You've clearly never parsed your damage with enspell I vs II, so I wouldn't go on about who has credibility and who doesn't lol

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I think you over-estimate enspell 2.

These are my current Enhancing and TP sets. They're not perfect, but I have them and I'm a fucking nobody, so they're definitely attainable. These put me at 13% DA from gear, and 20% DA from temper, for 33% double attack in the tp set.

The enhancing set also puts my enspell 1 at 30 dmg per hit, every hit, for the entire duration.

Enspell 2 would start at 26 and build to 52 over the duration, assuming the lesser accuracy of enspell2 NEVER comes up. I also assumed I wasn't tping in my enhancing build, because the loss of all those other stats is simply not justified by an extra 4-8 dmg per swing, (in any situation, against any mob. as was pointed out: requiscat exists) but that's still capped +merited enhancing skill. Someone with better gear might not need to merit enhancing skill, so that would sway things further into enspell1s favor.

so when you consider the time it takes to build up, and the fact that you're missing out on 33% secondary attacks even without dual wield, enspell 2s just aren't THAT good. not to mention that they're only ever even slightly better in a "worst" case scenario. (if you really can't dual wield, then your dmg is going to fall apart anyway)

It's not an issue of "is there ever any use for enspell2 if you think hard enough?" it's an issue of "what's actually GOOD?" and the setups that are actually "good", do not use enspell 2.




That's also ignoring the triple attack on my tp build, or any multi-hit atmas/buffs you might be using/getting. But I'm not looking to play lawyerball (it's not much TA anyway)

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so when you consider the time it takes to build up, and the fact that you're missing out on 33% secondary attacks even without dual wield, enspell 2s just aren't THAT good. not to mention that they're only ever even slightly better in a "worst" case scenario. (if you really can't dual wield, then your dmg is going to fall apart anyway)

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This is the point; the "worst case scenario" you just described is pretty much the only time you should be meleeing on RDM in the first place. If you're dual-wielding, you should be on a different job. Therefore, Enspell II are actually more useful than Enspell I, as the only time you're using Enspell I is when you're dual-wielding, and the only time you're dual-wielding on RDM is when you're second-classing yourself before you even leave your MH.