The State of Tanking in FFXI

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Originally Posted by Keyln

The question here, though, is what if PLD had a trait that effectively increased the enmity cap while the other jobs stayed at the old enmity cap.

This is one of the tricks that other MMO's use to help certain jobs tank.

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But job dynamics in FFXI are much more fluid here than in other MMO's. We can change jobs, after all.

Besides, you may not like it when S-E tries to pick and choose which jobs are "tanks" and which aren't. How long was it before they pretty much admitted that NIN was a tank and WAR was not?

Discussed to death. Didn't read thread. Tanking in the traditional sense as in absorbing or mitigating damage while holding hate doesn't exist any more. If you want to bring back tanking in a way that will actually work, just do the following:

Have every melee equip a Ceremonial Dagger. That D rating will push DD down to the point that PLD can meat tank in a meaningful way.

The only reason tanking EVER worked or was sought after was because of lengthy battles that took forever for melee to cap enmity. If you want tanking back, you've gotta bring back the half hour fights. That is all.

PS: I'm not sure even with a Ceremonial Dagger, a WAR wouldn't pull hate in Abyssea. They'd still see 2k Evis. right? Just saying.

And PSS: What are we tanking? 5-7 second long exp mobs? 1 minute long Voidwatch? 2 minute long Abyssea zone bosses? 2-3 minute Legion mobs? 2-3 minute Provenance? Just curious what's left to tank that needs tanking vs throwing moar sharp edges at it?

Pld is actually pritty powerfull and fine, it is indeed really the enmity system that needs reworking and not PLD that needs a buff (the job is powerfull and with relic/empy shield can barely be killed). Giving PLD some form of immense attack power would push the job beyond OP limits.

Even if you had unnerfed RDM/NIN or viable NIN/DRK tanking in todays time, they wouldnt hold a candle because the enmity system is just that bad, every DD can cap enmity pretty fast, hell even plds can cap enmity pritty fast if they go all out.

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

Discussed to death. Didn't read thread. Tanking in the traditional sense as in absorbing or mitigating damage while holding hate doesn't exist any more. If you want to bring back tanking in a way that will actually work, just do the following:

Have every melee equip a Ceremonial Dagger. That D rating will push DD down to the point that PLD can meat tank in a meaningful way.

The only reason tanking EVER worked or was sought after was because of lengthy battles that took forever for melee to cap enmity. If you want tanking back, you've gotta bring back the half hour fights. That is all.

PS: I'm not sure even with a Ceremonial Dagger, a WAR wouldn't pull hate in Abyssea. They'd still see 2k Evis. right? Just saying.

And PSS: What are we tanking? 5-7 second long exp mobs? 1 minute long Voidwatch? 2 minute long Abyssea zone bosses? 2-3 minute Legion mobs? 2-3 minute Provenance? Just curious what's left to tank that needs tanking vs throwing moar sharp edges at it?

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Fortunately you've stated the same reason why I said PLD tanks won't work even with fixed enmity. The only problem with your post is even back then, PLD wasn't "desired". PLD as a whole acted as a safety net for alliances that didn't have DDs strong enough to zerg down NMs. If they could, there was no need to a PLD whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Carth

This was actually talked about in the thread I referenced in the OP, and I'm inclined to agree with the consensus.

A trait that raises the enmity cap for PLD would be very useful, but it's would actually switch our issue to the opposite side, where it'd be too easy for PLD to tank, and it would nullify NIN, WAR, THF, etc. Personally, I'm not against the idea but there are more jobs besides PLD that can tank, even if just for short amounts of time.

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It depends on how it's implemented really. Just like there are multiple tiers of Defense Bonus, Attack Bonus, Accuracy Bonus, etc., Enmity Bonus could have tiers that raises the enmity cap above normal. Jobs that are designed around tanking can have higher tiers while other jobs could have lower tiers, or will have to sub in a tank job to get to the higher tiers. The devil's in the details, I'll admit, but it can be done right.

The whole purpose, though, is to make getting and keeping enmity easy, and allow tanks to focus on the one thing that matters, damage mitigation.

A lot of the replies on this thread ignore OP's entire point. The problem is not that PLD can't keep hate. The problem is that it doesn't matter who has hate (among frontline jobs, of course). The tough mobs in the game AoE like all hell and hit every melee regardless of who has it's attention. Having a PLD doesn't help the party stay alive... it slows down the killing process.

I love my PLD and wish it was more widely accepted (I don't have all the Relic/Empy toys). Adjusting the enmity cap for PLD is a good place to start (if for no other reason - make the tank appear to be tanking). What we really need, however, are mobs that readily wipe unprotected melees, and PLDs who can effectively protect them.

I like the idea of a -PDT sphere-effect. I also think Cover should be a job trait (with maybe a 90% activation rate).

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Originally Posted by Keyln

It depends on how it's implemented really. Just like there are multiple tiers of Defense Bonus, Attack Bonus, Accuracy Bonus, etc., Enmity Bonus could have tiers that raises the enmity cap above normal. Jobs that are designed around tanking can have higher tiers while other jobs could have lower tiers, or will have to sub in a tank job to get to the higher tiers. The devil's in the details, I'll admit, but it can be done right.

The whole purpose, though, is to make getting and keeping enmity easy, and allow tanks to focus on the one thing that matters, damage mitigation.

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Wouldn't matter how much, as long as the PLD can maintain 1TE over anyone else, tanking becomes stupid easy. Monsters AI targeting works very simply

Target highest person on list
If multiple, hit the one with the most recent action.

Thus if anyone could obtain 1TE over the cap of everyone else, they effectively become super tanks and can hold hate from the DDs riding T.Rex's firing Laser Beams. If the DD's can easily maintain hate cap then they will always be hit as they hit the monster several times faster then the PLD due to buffs and offensively orientated gear choices.

This is actually why PDT/MDT sets have now become mandatory for any serious DD. Not being smashed in under 10s is now an expected part of the role.

Guys, I've got the ticket. Give PLD a new ability that turns them into a meat shield for someone else. Not like Cover, but rather they shrink down(or stay the same size if Taru, I guess), and then start slowly floating in the air around the target player in a ring while tumbling. Whenever that player would take any damage, the PLD instantly appears in front and takes the hit instead. The PLD can't take actions or be healed in this mode. After their HP is gone or the ability times out, they reappear as normal with low health.

An orbital wall of meat? Interesting.

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The only reason tanking EVER worked or was sought after was because of lengthy battles that took forever for melee to cap enmity. If you want tanking back, you've gotta bring back the half hour fights. That is all.

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Wrong. You don't need eternally long fights to have tanks. You need to have tanking be technically possible. PLD can't tank because it does less damage and can not generate more enmity than anyone else ever, due to the low enmity cap that anyone can hit with no effort (sh*t, even my summoner can probably do it with shattersoul), Of course, as has already been established, the enmity cap isn't the only problem PLD has. But the fact that the game is still using limits and caps established at 75 for level 99 is a symbol of lack of foresight/planning by the developers.