[dev1049] New weapon skills

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Theytak

Rampage: 6 hit ws, 30% STR mod, total fTP: 5.694 (gorgets don't add exactly 0.1 fTP, they add 0.097), Critical hit ws
Ruinator: 5 hit ws, 100% STR mod, total fTP: 5.485, acc varies ws

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How did you get that fTP value? gorget and belt ftp adds to every hit on Ruinator.

Also with double attacks on ruinator each one will add 1.2( or 1.194) for exact value.

and lastly how did you calculate crit damage on hits when using rampage?
I got 134 base damage
lets say 7 hits, so 6.694 ftp
lets say 3.0 from crit. that alright?
then 8% damage boost from crit hit damage bonus.
134*6.694*3*1.08 = ~2900

@Theytak

Good numbers but the +fTP belts suck for Rampage in general so those are actually lowish numbers. Neck should be rancor collar for the +6% crits. Belt is usually the +15 acc +15 atk +1% DA belt, can't remember it's name. This is of course assuming a target that's EM~T or higher, basically anything you'd actually care about killing ASAP. I think if you increased the targets defense so that ratio wasn't capped you'd start to see a much bigger discrepancy between the two. This is why Rampage tends to be stronger on harder mobs, crits count more then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by darkhorror

How did you get that fTP value? gorget and belt ftp adds to every hit on Ruinator.

Also with double attacks on ruinator each one will add 1.2( or 1.194) for exact value.

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1.097
1.097
1.097
1.097
1.097
= 5.485
(1.097)
= 6.582

Is how I got the ruinator fTP values. Not exactly difficult math. Buuuuut you have a good point, since I apparently didn't use the gorget and the belt. I blame being hungry at the time I posted. Not that it changes the numbers much.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by darkhorror

and lastly how did you calculate crit damage on hits when using rampage?
I got 134 base damage
lets say 7 hits, so 6.694 ftp
lets say 3.0 from crit. that alright?
then 8% damage boost from crit hit damage bonus.
134*6.694*3*1.08 = ~2900

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18%. Ravager's Calligae +2 are pretty much mandatory for crit ws like rampage because they have crit damage +10%. otherwise I used 3.15 crit pDIF because I was using abs max scenario math, outside of str values because I was to lazy to figure out what the max possible/practical str would be.

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Originally Posted by saevel

@Theytak

Good numbers but the +fTP belts suck for Rampage in general so those are actually lowish numbers. Neck should be rancor collar for the +6% crits. Belt is usually the +15 acc +15 atk +1% DA belt, can't remember it's name. This is of course assuming a target that's EM~T or higher, basically anything you'd actually care about killing ASAP. I think if you increased the targets defense so that ratio wasn't capped you'd start to see a much bigger discrepancy between the two. This is why Rampage tends to be stronger on harder mobs, crits count more then.

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I was being generous to ruinator, since neither 6% crit rate nor 15 atk/acc/1%DA were really relevant to the numbers I was running.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Theytak

1.097
1.097
1.097
1.097
1.097
= 5.485
(1.097)
= 6.582

Is how I got the ruinator fTP values. Not exactly difficult math. Buuuuut you have a good point, since I apparently didn't use the gorget and the belt. I blame being hungry at the time I posted. Not that it changes the numbers much.


18%. Ravager's Calligae +2 are pretty much mandatory for crit ws like rampage because they have crit damage +10%. otherwise I used 3.15 crit pDIF because I was using abs max scenario math, outside of str values because I was to lazy to figure out what the max possible/practical str would be.



I was being generous to ruinator, since neither 6% crit rate nor 15 atk/acc/1%DA were really relevant to the numbers I was running.

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So you used 3.15 on rampage yet only a 2.05 on Ruinator? Where Ruinator will have a cap of ~2.45 pdif. If you are looking for true max with those 6 hits, you can add ~30% to Ruinator if you add the extra ftp and the higher pdif.

But then again these "max" numbers are meaningless with out calculating average damage. With the maxes you calculated here lets say you have a 40% crit hit rate( which seems like it would be a high crit rate) and land 7 hits on rampage, you only have a 00.16% of hitting, and only a 01.7% chance of landing 6 crits on 7 hits on rampage.

Where as Ruinator has only a 23.7% chance of not double attacking at all. a 39.5% of landing 1 DA, and 36.7% chance of landing more than 1. Ruinator adds ~1.2 ftp per hit where rampage adds 1.0, also ruinator can add 3 extra attacks, rampage can only add 2, ramapage does have higher number of DA since it's 6 hit vs 5 hit, but both can only max at 8. Take into account that you most likely wont see more than 5 or 6 crits in rampage.

So with your old numbers lets take the 3349 from Ruinator change it to 4353 max on 6 hits, though that max adds more to ruinator than you added to the max on rampage, I would normally use average. But that would still up a good bit more than rampage.

You will end up with about a 10% chance of getting 8 hits on Ruinator, which gives you a much higher max than rampage. Also rampage has a much smaller percentage of hitting it's max Rampage would only have about ~00.03% to hit max damage. You also with rampage even with 8 hits you only have a ~1.5% chance of landing 6 or more crits.

As I am sure you can see this puts Ruinator way ahead of Ramapage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Theytak

1.097
1.097
1.097
1.097
1.097
= 5.485
(1.097)
= 6.582

Is how I got the ruinator fTP values. Not exactly difficult math. Buuuuut you have a good point, since I apparently didn't use the gorget and the belt. I blame being hungry at the time I posted. Not that it changes the numbers much.

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How do you figure? Gorget and belt also add to every hit, that's a fairly potent increase.

Also, a couple issues with your calculations. Your noncrit pDIF max is wrong (2.5725 post-randomizer - you're actually a tad below post-randomizer pDIF average) and using max instead of avg messes with the numbers a bit. It diminishes crits even moreso than assuming ratio cap does already given that crits are a static bonus and will also frequently hit the pDIFa hard cap of 3.0 pre-randomizer when ratio is 2.0.

Also, why not just treat DA as a probabilistic increase to fTP instead of making assumptions? Two chances to proc each with an fTP*proc% contribution to fTP. (EDIT: don't know why I wrote 1.0 for this WS >_>!)

Eh, if I've done the math wrong, I've done the math wrong. I still stand by my final assertion that, in practice, bst and less well geared wars will see ruinator as the stronger ws, but wars with higher end gear will see rampage and ruinator end up fairly close on average.

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Originally Posted by Nightfyre

How do you figure? Gorget and belt also add to every hit, that's a fairly potent increase.

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I thought it was fairly obvious I was just doing spitball math, lol. The point of my numbers was less to definitively say "Ruinator and Rampage are equal" or that one is better than the other, and more to point out the rather drastic difference in war and bst rampage numbers, and the fact that wars rarely use axes any more, meaning that really, bsts have a bit of a skewed view on the matter. It doesn't mean they're wrong about ruinator for bsts, just that their understanding of rampage, and my understanding of rampage (as a war w/o bst leveled) are different.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Theytak

Eh, if I've done the math wrong, I've done the math wrong. I still stand by my final assertion that, in practice, bst and less well geared wars will see ruinator as the stronger ws, but wars with higher end gear will see rampage and ruinator end up fairly close on average.

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That is flat out wrong, why make those assertions if you have nothing to back them up? I have done the math and not the max, but the average. on average with the stats you gave, 25% DA rate and a 40% crit rate, capped attack, and I used average pdif of 2.96 for crit, and 2.0 for nonecrit. Not only does Ruinator beat rampage it beats it by 50%, but it averages more damage than rampage does at max damage. Averages end up at ~3700 for ruinator, and ~2450.

Also you say "wars with higher end gear will see rampage and ruinator end up fairly close on average." which is opposite than what really happens due to the high STR mod on Ruinator, STR factors in much more than on rampage, really with rampage if you have a good crit hit rate and find some crit hit damage+ makes MUCH more difference than str. Also belt and gorget also have a huge impact on ruinator vs a very small one on rampage.

Lastly as mobs get harder with higher def Rampage does end up getting a little closer but even with an average pdif of .5, Ruinator still wins by a good amount. If Ruinator has an attack bonus which I feel that it does will put it even farther away from rampage especially on mobs with higher def.

After some more testing, Ruinator does for sure have an attack bonus, at minimum it's around 20%. More testing needs to be done if we want the actual attack bonus.

Link to data please

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/104...=1#post4972280

Thank ye~. Nice stuff.