More Paladin-centered shields needed to close the gap with Aegis & Ochain

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Thief and Dancer needed to sub warrior to proc like anything near a nin and that was a hindrance to their solo and lowman efforts.

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That's just my point- the job itself wasn't really overpowered because its overuse was due to a design flaw in the event (specifically the Abyssea proccing system) rather than the job (or item I guess) actually being overpowered. Just about everyone except DRK was destroying everything in sight in Abyssea, so the only thing people ended up caring about is whether you had utility, which is why every party ended up being NIN WAR THF BLU BRD BLM WHM.

Nobody cared about fast attack speed and almost nobody cared about how much damage you were taking in Abyssea since everyone had 3000 HP (and thus by extension Subtle Blow wasn't all that useful either).

If you want to say that overpowered and simply being useful are the same thing, that's up to you, but the whole time Abyssea was the center of the game Ninja was still a horrible job outside Abyssea. Once Ochain got introduced PLD was nearly invincible regardless of where it was fighting. Once Abyssea passed the results of their total lack of balance has become more and more obvious.

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I don't think pld's damage taking potential is overpowered. I think the other tanks are underpowered.

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I agree. I usually just use overpowered as a relative term, because if you design a really hard monster with all the jobs balanced out, people will still have fun playing the job they like, but if you have poor job balance, the enemies can be ridiculously easy (Abyssea) and people will still flock to those specific jobs, and it ruins the game.

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Originally Posted by Kincard

That's just my point- the job itself wasn't really overpowered because its overuse was due to a design flaw in the event (specifically the Abyssea proccing system) rather than the job (or item I guess) actually being overpowered. Just about everyone except DRK was destroying everything in sight in Abyssea, so the only thing people ended up caring about is whether you had utility, which is why every party ended up being NIN WAR THF BLU BRD BLM WHM.

Nobody cared about fast attack speed and almost nobody cared about how much damage you were taking in Abyssea since everyone had 3000 HP (and thus by extension Subtle Blow wasn't all that useful either).

If you want to say that overpowered and simply being useful are the same thing, that's up to you, but the whole time Abyssea was the center of the game Ninja was still a horrible job outside Abyssea. Once Ochain got introduced PLD was nearly invincible regardless of where it was fighting. Once Abyssea passed the results of their total lack of balance has become more and more obvious.



I agree. I usually just use overpowered as a relative term, because if you design a really hard monster with all the jobs balanced out, people will still have fun playing the job they like, but if you have poor job balance, the enemies can be ridiculously easy (Abyssea) and people will still flock to those specific jobs, and it ruins the game.

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I think you are missing the point, or at least talking around it. Ninja was the better Tank in and out of Abyssea up until the last version of Abyssea was released. The fact that Ninja could out preform Paladin in not only damage but in damage taken via Evasion is the point. You are correct in stating when the Ochain came out, Paladin stepped up into the tanking role again. Allowing them to gain TP at an increased rate gave them a chance to come close to Ninja's damage output while still taking solid hits from larger baddies.

Since then, and until recently with the new Expansion, Ninjas and Paladins have held their place. I've played both jobs, they both have their uses and needs but the content prior to the expansion didn't require a tough tank to help with anything. Again, with the new expansion out, Paladins have made the highlights in part with the new baddies hitting as accurately and as hard as they do. Groups are finding ways around including Paladins to the fights now, however; because like before, Paladins damage output is no where near the amount of an above average Damage Dealer.

Once everything became less than 18 in abyssea, or you brought people only to share key items and wins, subtle blow from monks and ninjas really really picked up in value.

It's not semantics. Ninja was favored highly by aby and atmas only made it better. As to fast attack speed, once hate-cap really became a problem, attack speed is all that made ninjas or monks a tank. As the AI would think about turning towards the blm, the melee in front would get a strike in. Evading so much and shadows also caused ninjas no/less (shadows) enmity loss than meat tanks so... blah blah blah.

It's abyssea. We all know how it went.

As to overpowered, only reason I bring up the use of the word is because it's important to properly identify the problem. Paladin, Aegis, Ochain aren't the problems. Combat design and DT gear are the problems. An Ochain paladin isn't overpowered, he's powerful enough for the task players desire for the job.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Paladin, Aegis, Ochain aren't the problems. Combat design and DT gear are the problems. An Ochain paladin isn't overpowered, he's powerful enough for the task players desire for the job.

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This.

Ochain emphasizes on Paladins main job role. No different than Ninja's getting gear to enhance Evasion or Number of shadows or Duel wield or etc...

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

I was trying to say that certain pieces being the exception, rather than the rule, is fine.

We had DT gear at 75, of course. It was just unneeded in most situations and was certainly a lot harder to assemble a set.

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Indeed, but if you were to adjust how mitigation plays into PLD design, they suddenly become very important. Kind of like the current thing with Aegis taking you over the -MDT cap.

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As for who should tank, I'd say PLD, NIN, and RUN, and I begrudgingly add RUN. XI didn't really need another tank right now when they can't manage the two they've got and both stop getting invites when they're not needed.

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I disagree on this. Two tanks out of 22 jobs is a sign of lopsided role distribution.

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

Which was exactely the purpose why this thread was opened in the first place, wasn't it?
Also, it's a realistic thing that could happen.

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Then the discussion veered in the direction of the issue running deeper than just shield discrepancy. Which is very much true.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I disagree on this. Two tanks out of 22 jobs is a sign of lopsided role distribution.

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When you consider the real distribution of jobs;
2 Supports (brd cor)
Top 3 DD (DRK MNK SAM)
Healer (WHM)
MISC maybe wanteds (TH, Angon, Stun)

-1- Tank (PLD not NIN, not even close RUN) it appears to be a more reasonable distribution, 1/7.3

Just to chime back in, since this thread is just going on and on and on and on and on and on.

It's the battle design, aka; The way shield blocking procs is the issue, and to a lesser extent the ease/availability of all the DT gear for all (20) jobs.

Not the shields themselves, even before Ochain, PLD was a poor job, that's because shields just don't block like they're supposed to. The only thing stopping a PLD from blocking with ANY shield should be a debilitation.

Honestly even while petrified, the shield is still in front of your body, so you can throw that one away, and say sleep should be the ONLY reason a shield is unable to block an attack.

It doesn't really matter what the job distribution is as long as theirs good player distribution and there certainly are enough paladins and ninjas. DNC can also tank for lowman things.

Ninja is the evasion tank. Paladin is the meat tank. There wasn't room for a third, especially for a team that's never managed to keep the two remotely neck-and-neck.

Would you say the game needs another healer? There's only 3, and you could argue 2. RDM can heal but not quite like an sch or whm.

Did the game need another support job? Especially one that may become as necessary as bard? People who play support will play support, people who don't, won't.

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Originally Posted by Karah

When you consider the real distribution of jobs;
2 Supports (brd cor)
Top 3 DD (DRK MNK SAM)
Healer (WHM)
MISC maybe wanteds (TH, Angon, Stun)

-1- Tank (PLD not NIN, not even close RUN) it appears to be a more reasonable distribution, 1/7.3

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I was being generous. I generally don't count NIN because tanking ninja are iconoclastic.

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It's the battle design, aka; The way shield blocking procs is the issue, and to a lesser extent the ease/availability of all the DT gear for all (20) jobs.

Not the shields themselves, even before Ochain, PLD was a poor job, that's because shields just don't block like they're supposed to.

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I trace it back to how shields add nothing aside from shield block procs, which goes back to my comment that shields should grant passive mitigation before you even factor shield blocking.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

It doesn't really matter what the job distribution is as long as theirs good player distribution and there certainly are enough paladins and ninjas.

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Player distribution and role distribution between classes go hand in hand. Variety in gameplay and mechanics can attract people to roles they would normally avoid.

In other games where balance is a continuing quest, I'd be all for more tanks. In WoW, I had a Warrior, Paladin and Bear. I also played all four healers (two overlapping, obviouslly).

Ninjas and paladins will never be equally good for every task, they're too different. WoW achieves balance by making classes more alike if they need to be. I prefer having different classes.

But Ninja is not even a consideration for tanking in delve. It's squishy, it really got hurt by the changes to defense, and those agas gonna hurt something fierce.

I'd prefer they made a focused effort to make both tanks desirable. There's nothing, certainly about many of the individual NMs that ninja shouldn't be able to tank if SE gave ninja some defensive attributes of their own. Ninjas may never be multi-target supertanks, but supertanking is boring anyway.

Adding jobs merely for the sake of adding jobs has gotten old, since we've had, for 6? years now, more jobs than we can fit in an alliance, and that's before we talk about the duplicates we'll bring (whm, brd, pld maybe, sam, war, drk, mnk, cor, and sometimes rng).

The idea of "tanking" in Delve is (currently) absurd. The game so strictly forces the zerg mentality on you in Delve in order to beat any of the NMs that hate inevitably becomes shared among whoever makes it to the hate cap. There is no "tank", other than NM holders.