Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

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Originally Posted by Aurara

You're wrong because i can do this easily on whm.

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Either you or the WAR are lying. I don't care who, but one of you has to admit it and leave.

ITT: Because I suck and can't do it, nobody else can do it, either.

I am neither

1) the WAR who said SMN shouldn't melee because WHM don't have the MP
2) the WHM who said he not only has MP, but can handle the haste cycle.

It's kind of like GG's "5x" lie. They say what makes them look good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI0mQ...2606213D09B173

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Last I saw, our Ukon WARs still had tremendous butthurt over the TP feed of a melee SMN. I can understand why, they want to tank with Hasso. That means the WHM is going to be saving the Ukon WARs ass a LOT, and running out of MP. He is not going to be competent enough to handle all the stupidity the idiots are throwing around this thread AND the haste that any SMN could easily handle.

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Look, you were given the same buffs a WAR was given. WAR had Hasso, you had Hasso, WAR had 40% Spell Haste, you had 40% Spell Haste, WAR had 15% Ability Haste, you had 15% Ability Haste, WAR had 22% gear haste (toned it down for you), you had 22% gear haste, WAR had A+ rating on weapon, you had A+ rating on weapon (toned it up for you).

They have done everything in your favor and you still sucked. They even did not include WAR's JAs and WSs and gave you avatar damage and WAR still beat you 5 to 1. Now that you are saying that a WAR can't survive as a tank? Do you really want to go down that road? Seriously? Are you saying that you can tank better than a WAR? Or are you saying something incomprehensible to anyone but you?

The whole TP feed thing was stating that SMN TP feed does not justify swinging a staff. Which is what I told you months ago, but you wouldn't listen because that fact is detriment to your argument.

As much as I hate elitist attitudes shown recently, there are some facts that can not be ignored.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Either you or the WAR are lying. I don't care who, but one of you has to admit it and leave.

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I think you're grasping straws now. I've tanked everything in abyssea as war/sam with a WHM, and had little to no MP issues.

I'm done with this. no one here is going to convince the other of anything.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I'm done with this. no one here is going to convince the other of anything.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEIRp...2606213D09B173

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I'm done with this. no one here is going to convince the other of anything.

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I know man it's useless to fight SMNs will still get invites and still prove useful regardless of the opinions of some of the population I gave up awhile back too lol

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prove useful

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Like I said earlier, I never said they weren't useful, just that they weren't good.

You can be useful, but if something else is more useful, I go w/ that and while you're useful, I'd use a word like "average" rather than good.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

senseless rantings

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Dallas you happen to be the one thing everyone here agrees on.

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Like I said earlier, I never said they weren't useful, just that they weren't good.

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Contradictory statement

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Contradictory statement

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Not at all

A is useful
B is useful

B is much more useful than A.

Both are useful, but B is good (better in this case)

The word useful was used in general

The word "good" was used comparatively (to the other options)

If you got any other meaning form it, I either worded it wrong, or you read it wrong, but I'll clear it up now as to what exactly I meant.

Also, I thought you were done here? That only took you 5 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Like I said earlier, I never said they weren't useful, just that they weren't good.

You can be useful, but if something else is more useful, I go w/ that and while you're useful, I'd use a word like "average" rather than good.

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That's a reasonable answer. Maybe it's the fact I care about my SMN but I throw myself 100% at the discussed role but I( and the people I've played with in this capacity) have always found it good. I'll be honest with you I wouldn't insist on doing it if it was only average. I can't stand being useless or a loose end, I almost dropped pt when I was trying to get Diabolos (because he kept sleeping my avatars and thus crippling me) after the second failed run so they could pick up a non pet job.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Not at all

A is useful
B is useful

B is much more useful than A.

Both are useful, but B is good (better in this case)

The word useful was used in general

The word "good" was used comparatively (to the other options)

If you got any other meaning form it, I either worded it wrong, or you read it wrong, but I'll clear it up now as to what exactly I meant.

Also, I thought you were done here? That only took you 5 minutes.

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But I love you so much, you're irresistable, in a you're a troll and I take the bait sort of way.

/leaves

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Does summoner need buffing? Yes, hell yes it does. Is it "the worst job?" No. Not by a million miles. SMN can cure if necessary, buff if necessary, and add some damage while doing either of those things. SMN has unique debuffs (I'll agree its difficult to take advantage of them though) and easily one of the most powerful 2-hours.

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Tell me then, who is the worst job?

SCH? Singles nukes better than BLM on average.
PUP? Verethragna and tactical switch says hi
COR? Regain, mage buffs better than anyone (other than ballad refresh), and Wildfire say hi
DRK? 25% JA haste for 3 minutes says hi, giving them capped recast stuns, and oftentimes bigger dps than groups without a BRD
RDM? Still has incredible debuffs making so many fights way easier than they previously were.
BLU? IDC bro we gots procs.

I don't know what you're looking for here. SMN is definitely and without a doubt the job that brings the least to the table. Tiny DPS, next to useless buffs, healing capability is meh.

Idk, there's also bst and pld

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Idk, there's also bst and pld

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lol forgot they existed for a while.

Yep, can't make up an excuse for those jobs. SMN might be third to last

Saying that BST is useless shows how much you really know about this game.

You guys need to broaden your mind a little and realize that for times where none of your friends are online and have to do whatever you want them to do, you can still kill the NMs you want to kill by yourself.

There are plenty of jobs that can solo as well or better than bst.

Why solo as SMN or BST when you can invite a WAR to do the only thing he's designed to do in that party? I am, of course, referring to zombie proccing red and blue with Apoc atma.

Serious question; BST is that bad?

Probably seems like a trollbait question, but I really have no interaction with any BSTs, nobody in my group has it leveled (except for Maat's Cap maybe), I never ever do pickup groups for anything and I have had no reason to ever look into the job. I know BST is certainly non-optimal, but I didn't know it was that bad. :x

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Why solo as SMN or BST when you can invite a WAR to do the only thing he's designed to do in that party? I am, of course, referring to zombie proccing red and blue with Apoc atma.

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I don't die often

but when I do its because I'm red proccing.





Sarcasm intended

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

Serious question; BST is that bad?

Probably seems like a trollbait question, but I really have no interaction with any BSTs, nobody in my group has it leveled (except for Maat's Cap maybe), I never ever do pickup groups for anything and I have had no reason to ever look into the job. I know BST is certainly non-optimal, but I didn't know it was that bad. :x

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It can solo stuff... slower than DNC or NIN/DNC can. (probably slower than NIN/THF too if you just want the TH from the ladybug)

In a party setting its useless as all get out.

On the bright side, Rampage is good, but it really lacks a lot considering BST doesn't get much offensively other than that and access to all the good gears.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

I don't die often

but when I do its because I'm red proccing.

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BST and SMN don't waste lotting rights on WHM who do not provide procs. You will die because we want you to. WARs aren't good for anything else in a pet party, so stop crying and use Apoc.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

BST and SMN don't waste lotting rights on WHM who do not provide procs. You will die because we want you to. WARs aren't good for anything else in a pet party, so stop crying and use Apoc.

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Q.Q no I don't want to use an atma that boosts DPS more than any other besides RR...




Sarcasm intended.


Sidenote: lolpetparties

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Originally Posted by Dallas

BST and SMN don't waste lotting rights on WHM who do not provide procs. You will die because we want you to. WARs aren't good for anything else in a pet party, so stop crying and use Apoc.

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ITT: Tp gain whilst double weak

I don't even understand what Dallas is trying to say. I've tried reading and rereading multiple times, and it's still just coming across as word-vomit.

lol to me it says:

BST and SMN don't need healers... so you don't need WHMs... so instead of inviting WHM get an entire pet party to kill something... and only invite the WAR (and probably NIN) for red procs because you don't have WHM so they need Apoc to keep getting back up.

However, instead of alllll of that you can just: NIN WAR WHM: kill whatever faster than a pet party.

Your talents at derp translations are astounding.

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

Your talents at derp translations are astounding.

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lol thanks :O its cuz i'm from asura.

I'm just curious at what Summoner is better than ... anyone at.

I mean, like, anything. Want to claim they DD better than PUP? I mean, they don't, but feel free to at least try. Better than PLD? No, no they really don't. I mean, go for it.

Are they better at DD'ing while healing than other jobs that can do so? I dunno. How about Paladin? Nope. Uh, Scholar? Nope. Red Mage? Nope. White Mage? Nope.

Uh, Buffing while Healing? Nope.

Buffing while DD'ing? Better than who? Uh ... COR? No. Brd? No. Whm? No. Rdm? No. Sch? No. Who else?

Buffing while Healing While DD'ing? Better than COR/WHM? No. WHM? No. RDM? No.

I'm not trying to cut anyone off, but people keep saying that SMN is not the absolute worst. You say that it "Does a lot at once". But other jobs can to.

Who can Summoner actually do something better than? Specific example. Please. Even just one.

When 90% of FFXI players in pickups are absolute full-Aurore suck, yes, any good Summoner is going to look like an absolute god among them. But compare that good Summoner to a good anything else and what do you get aside from wasted potential? I mean, seriously. What is Summoner as a job doing that the same person could not be doing better on another job?

Aside from having fun. Which is a moot point. Everyone's said a million times that fun is fun and people can do what they want. Summoner will just mean doing it worse than they could be doing it on any other job in the game.

Edit: Protip: Sticking your fingers in your ears and proclaiming that your job is not completely frapping broken to the nth degree by not being able to benefit from Haste/Buffs is the absolute best way to keep from ever receiving a beneficial update.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I'm just curious at what Summoner is better than ... anyone at.

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Soloing. Certain. Notorious. Monsters.

Maybe not fast, but at least a lot safer than others, but you know what, you never look at that because most of you guys have at least 2 other mules to tri-box with, probably with your own versions of bots. So you can say you can "solo" anything.

But when you have nothing like that, SMN shines. We don't have to depend on anyone or anything except our abilities and our avatars.

So being good at soloing makes you great at what aspect in a party slot? Last I checked we were talking about smns in pts.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

So being good at soloing makes you great at what aspect in a party slot? Last I checked we were talking about smns in pts.

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Did I quote you?

The request was, in case you can't read simple english:

"I'm just curious at what Summoner is better than ... anyone at."

Which I even quoted. When I responded.

Now shoo, Filth goes over here

RDM is a better soloer than smn, just saying.
Edit: Also, what NMs are you talking about anyways lol?

My point still stands, unless you're concurring that they're only good in a solo situation (which even then, I'd say average because many jobs can solo better/faster than smn) and not in pt situations, which is been the subject of the last x number of pages.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

I don't die often

but when I do its because I'm red proccing.





Sarcasm intended

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I haven't agreed with you so far but damn you can be funny

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

lol to me it says:

BST and SMN don't need healers... so you don't need WHMs... so instead of inviting WHM get an entire pet party to kill something... and only invite the WAR (and probably NIN) for red procs because you don't have WHM so they need Apoc to keep getting back up.

However, instead of alllll of that you can just: NIN WAR WHM: kill whatever faster than a pet party.

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The real question is even sans WHM why is a WAR dying constantly in a group full of SMNs?

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Originally Posted by Al

You aren't "lowering the output" of any normal, typical party of normal typical people. This is a load of cockamamie whatsit.

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Originally Posted by Al

In any average group of average people, you don't lose anything. It's only when you reach the elitist tier when you might lose anything.

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Originally Posted by Al

800 posts later and all we've learned is that elitists hate summoners.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

You don't rate the job and that's fine but it doesn't change the fact that I am useful as a support and have been since I started trying it 2 years ago. Am I the best? No. Am I good at it? Yes

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You guys need to understand that it isn't about being 'elitist'. I'm going to say this because BG gets a bad rap by people who don't understand the culture. It's a community based on learning how to play FFXI better, and a big part of that is understanding game mechanics and how they work as part of a strategy. It's not a community for elitists, it's a community for people that understand that they need to change in order to be more successful. There are very few people who post on BG who have 'perfect' gear or always make 'perfect' parties. If they were perfect, there wouldn't be much point in playing anymore, right?

So this is it. When you discuss game mechanics, and specifically job performance, you need to understand how the job can perform at it's absolute peak. You have to remove player 'skill' from the discussion. It is hugely varied and impossible to quantify, and for practical purposes it has no place in an unbiased discussion. At the same time, comparing A to B when A is perfect and B has no idea how to gear a job properly doesn't make sense, either. Comparisons like that aren't going to get you any useful information.

This is what is going on right now, in this thread. There are people who are showing you that SMN can not perform it's 'duties' on the same level as any other job in the game, period. At best it is tied for healing capacity with other jobs that only have healing due to /whm or /rdm (COR). Aside from a few niche buffs (EA, PD) the buffs it does have are either not unique to the job (Haste, Stoneskin) or are significantly weaker than alternative job buffs, to the point where even if you add up the entire potential a SMN can add to a party, any other job capable of a similar role will perform better. This isn't a failing on either of you as players, it is a failing of the design of the SMN job. No matter how much you enjoy the job, no matter how good you are playing the job, it is still a sub-par job.

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Originally Posted by dallas

The WHM can't be that competent, the tank is a WAR/SAM looking for epeen damage.

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Says the melee SMN. Hint: Killing faster is killing safer. If you have the healing power to support it (*coughWHM*cough*), use the strongest DD available. Winning in a shorther time frame offers less chance for damaging TP moves, which actually ends up using less healing overall.

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Originally Posted by dallas

Last I saw, our Ukon WARs still had tremendous butthurt over the TP feed of a melee SMN. I can understand why, they want to tank with Hasso. That means the WHM is going to be saving the Ukon WARs ass a LOT, and running out of MP. He is not going to be competent enough to handle all the stupidity the idiots are throwing around this thread AND the haste that any SMN could easily handle.

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By your own logic, the only reason the WHM can't handle the TP feed is because you are meleeing on SMN. Solution: don't bring a SMN (namely you). The real 'problem' you are trying to invent is that you think WAR/SAM riding Hasso is an MP sponge, but it isn't for reasons I described above. In fact doing more damage per hit is essentially feeding less TP. If SMN melee was at all respectable, say Empyrean being on par with a DNC or even THF or PUP, it wouldn't be an issue. It's not. It's bottom of the barrel melee damage, on par with what a BLM or a SCH could put out.

So now what it comes down to for your twisted perception is this: if we already have DNC meleeing on a mob, or THF meleeing on a mob, or some other DD other than the 'tank' DD(s), then TP feed isn't an issue with the mob(s) you are fighting. Nobody cares if you melee on trash mobs. If it is a mob that has dangerous TP moves you will use less DDs on it. You will use one or two DDs, and they should be the best damaging DDs you have available. It doesn't need to be a WAR/SAM. Sometimes it's more practical to have a MNK, NIN, THF, DNC, DRK, hell, even a PLD as a tank, due to whichever type of dangerous TP move or magical attacks the mob in question does. In this case you aren't going to get to melee on SMN. Will you do more damage? Sure. Will you be the cause of the MP sponging going on? Absolutely.

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Originally Posted by dallas

You will die because we want you to. WARs aren't good for anything else in a pet party, so stop crying and use Apoc.

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Epic lol. You aren't useful for anything at all in a real party (hint; the rest of the game).