Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Bullshiat. Asking a black mage to cure is like (insert something horrible you could ask someone to do.)

Besides, you're going to have a BLM anyway. You're not giving up a party slot to them.

Plus, if they have no concern other than procing, They don't even need to be in the main party.

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You do abyssea with more than one party?
And blm can heal just as well as smn. Running out of mp isn't rly a concern and they're both limited to the same tier of cure.

I never said you had to give up a pt slot for a blm. I said if the mob is that easy where you don't need a whm, then you shouldn't need a smn either, you should be fine w/ the blm

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And blm can heal just as well as smn.

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A BLM can't buff just as well as a SMN.

And yes, we do things with more than a party, because we have more than 6 people who want to do things. Do we ABSOLUTELY NEED more than 6 people? No. should we not allow people to come just because we have 6? No.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Hey, man. If you're willing to main heal on Summoner and feel that you can do so effectively, you're welcome to it. It's not like you're missing much over Red Mage aside from Shell V, which really is a bit of a big deal. But good luck trying to convey the message that Summoner is perfectly capable of main healing, because the rest of the SMN community will likely roast you before you even get a chance to try.

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I wouldn't roast him, main heal is something a SMN can pull off easily. It's not a prefered role but if someone needs me to go down that route I've no problem doing it. I've main healed low man groups against that vampire NM in abyssea vunkerl(name escapes me) and Athamas on SMN/SCH before

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

A BLM can't buff just as well as a SMN.

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Necessary buffs, sure. I don't see why a blm would be incapable of doing a proper haste cycle in abyssea. Does it take a little more effort? Sure, I'm not disputing that, but are the capable of buffing just as well, they sure are.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

A BLM can't buff just as well as a SMN.

And yes, we do things with more than a party, because we have more than 6 people who want to do things. Do we ABSOLUTELY NEED more than 6 people? No. should we not allow people to come just because we have 6? No.

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It's called divide an conquer. I never said to tell people they can't come, but you can make a second group within your shell or group or whoever you go with and focus on different mobs whilst remaining in alliance for lotting purposes.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

You do abyssea with more than one party?
And blm can heal just as well as smn. Running out of mp isn't rly a concern and they're both limited to the same tier of cure.

I never said you had to give up a pt slot for a blm. I said if the mob is that easy where you don't need a whm, then you shouldn't need a smn either, you should be fine w/ the blm

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SMN has Healing ruby II and a free ~22HP regen

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Originally Posted by Razushu

SMN has Healing ruby II and a free ~22HP regen

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If you're fighting something hard enough to where not having healing ruby II makes the diff between life and death, I think its safe to assume you should just have a whm in your pt.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

And I'm still waiting for you to point out where I told smns how to play their jobs, or did you just say that for w/e reason you deemed fit, without any merit of any sort?

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I never said nor implied that you told SMNs how to do their job. You assumed that I did.

So I guess that's assumption number 4?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I never said nor implied that you told SMNs how to do their job. You assumed that I did.

So I guess that's assumption number 4?

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It wouldn't be any different if I went to a MNK forum and tell them that they need to Chi Blast even more, or whatever stupid reason.

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The bolded implies that I did the same, since it wouldn't be any different. If you were not implying that, then it would be different.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

If you're fighting something hard enough to where not having healing ruby II makes the diff between life and death, I think its safe to assume you should just have a whm in your pt.

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It only needs to make the difference between an efficent main heal and Cure IV spam with not much else being added. See 2 posts above yours I stated 2 times where I main healed o NMs with no WHM and my HRII and favor regen made the difference

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

The bolded implies that I did the same, since it wouldn't be any different. If you were not implying that, then it would be different.

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The implication was you putting your opinion in matters that don't effect you and you have no opinion in the matter.

We aren't talking about lolmnk. So why are you here? That was my question to you that you didn't answer.

I did answer. It's not my fault if you selectively read.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

I did answer. It's not my fault if you selectively read.

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Oh, you mean your horrible excuse?

Yeah, I took that as what it is, a horrible excuse.

I still answered it whether or not you like the answer doesn't make any difference.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

I still answered it whether or not you like the answer doesn't make any difference.

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By your logic.

If somebody asked you what the capital of Ontario is, and you answered shellfish, that is not an answer.

But that is what you did.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

By your logic.

If somebody asked you what the capital of Ontario is, and you answered shellfish, that is not an answer.

But that is what you did.

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It is an answer, it's just not the correct answer.

and really, when it comes to why I post, I'm sure I know better than you, so your answer would be the "shellfish" and mine would be "Toronto" in this case.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

It is an answer, it's just not the correct answer.

and really, when it comes to why I post, I'm sure I know better than you, so your answer would be the "shellfish" and mine would be "Toronto" in this case.

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What is that, Assumption number 5?

Yes, and it's one I'm sure everyone would agree with. I know why I post better than you do because I know what I'm thinking and you can't read my mind.

If you're going to try to argue that, you really should get lipo, because triglycerides have invaded your brain.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Yes, and it's one I'm sure everyone would agree with. I know why I post better than you do because I know what I'm thinking and you can't read my mind.

If you're going to try to argue that, you really should get lipo, because triglycerides have invaded your brain.

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How many attack posts have you made today? 8 now?

Are we only talking about this thread, or all together from all of the interactions I've had today? If it's the latter, then that changes the answer considerably.

Wait, there is more than one person you torture with your wit?

Can I pad my postcount too? :p

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Originally Posted by Dallas

The simple jobs snuffed out the hybrid jobs because they didn't understand them. As you can see, they still don't understand them.

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Hitting alt-0 is harder when you are on SMN.

Who's going to make the popcorn?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Who's going to make the popcorn?

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I got it covered, buttered, or not?

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Originally Posted by Aurara

I got it covered, buttered, or not?

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I need not your popcorn, for I have brought.... NACHOS! the superior snack food

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Originally Posted by TybudX

Hitting alt-0 is harder when you are on SMN.

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We're approaching 800 posts, and there are still MNKs and WARs, who don't see the difference between

1) a 130mp, 1-sec job ability hitting everyone including the pet for a 5-minute haste and
2) a 40mp, 3 second cast, 20 second recast spell hitting 1 person for a 3-minute haste

Just using the Haste spell for the SMN + avatar for 5 minute duration would cost 133MP and take 12 seconds to cast. Basically, for a melee SMN, keeping you ungrateful autoattackers hasted is free and gives me back extra attack rounds.

Wow thread exploded. Anyway, my last post like 20 pages ago about the smn party was just a troll post.

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Originally Posted by Bumbeen

Wow thread exploded. Anyway, my last post like 20 pages ago about the smn party was just a troll post.

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I know lol, no one could have that kind of lack of knowledge of a job in this game. It really did explode there was like 2 pages solid of Kor and cream fighting that seemed to do it.

How is this thread still going on?

Yall feeding dallas need to troll or something, because there's no way that Melee SMN is anything but a joke.

You can argue how AoE Hastega is all day, because it's very AoE, but that doesn't mean the SMN should ever be in the melee party anyway, where a single BRD can do the same thing IN BETWEEN SONG ROTATIONS and give superior haste at all times to the melee party.

Just because SMN can, doesn't mean it should.

Why did you bother with SMN 90, LLH? You won't DD or buff, and I'm sure you heal with WHM. You get all the pixels at L75, so what bet did you lose?

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Originally Posted by dallas

We're approaching 800 posts, and there are still MNKs and WARs, who don't see the difference between

1) a 130mp, 1-sec job ability hitting everyone including the pet for a 5-minute haste and
2) a 40mp, 3 second cast, 20 second recast spell hitting 1 person for a 3-minute haste

Just using the Haste spell for the SMN + avatar for 5 minute duration would cost 133MP and take 12 seconds to cast. Basically, for a melee SMN, keeping you ungrateful autoattackers hasted is free and gives me back extra attack rounds.

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So you admit that hitting alt-0 is easier on SMN than hitting alt-0 6 times on WHM, RDM, or SCH is? Or what was your point? You made a comment about 'simple jobs' snuffing out hybrids like it's difficult to play SMN; it's not even remotely hard. It takes the same amount of focus and knowledge of gear as any other job in the game. The difference between SMN auto-attacking, casting a couple buffs, doing a WS, etc., and an 'ungrateful autoattacker' who needs to pay attention to mob behaviour, swap gear for pdt/mdt, WS at appropriate times, possibly count shadows, keep up a cycle of their own buffs and debuffs? It's nil. The concept of DD being auto-attack/afk is a joke. WAR is the job that comes closest to it, and good luck going from being a melee SMN to keeping up with all of a WARs JAs, gear swaps, etc. You really are clueless.

Also, it's been explained, over, and over, and over, and over. You casting Hastega is a convenience for mages. Not for "ungrateful autoattackers". Mages. You are actually getting mad because you aren't getting recognition for it, from "ungrateful autoattackers", who are going to get Haste regardless of you being in the party or not. Those mages aren't even put out by having to cycle Haste themselves; they've been doing it outside of Abyssea Refresh for years with no problems. Why do they suddenly need that 133mp and 12 seconds? Oh, that's right, they don't. So really, the only person who gains anything from a SMN casting Hastega over a WHm or a RDM or a SCH is.... the avatar. Sounds to me like you're the ungrateful one, for being allowed to cast a buff that only benefits yourself.

I dunno how you guys are able to keep this up.

It's easy. They're playing SMN, without DD, buffing, or healing. They have all the time in the world to post.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

Also, it's been explained, over, and over, and over, and over. You casting Hastega is a convenience for mages. Not for "ungrateful autoattackers".

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You can be wrong over and over. We'll hit 1000 posts and you will still be wrong. My pet only gets Haste from me. I'm using Hastega. I'm sure even WHM taught by BG are bad enough players to overwrite a 5 minute buff with a 3 minute buff.

It's very easy. If you want a weaker buff, party with weaker players.

Actually, I think you're trolling all of them.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Why did you bother with SMN 90, LLH? You won't DD or buff, and I'm sure you heal with WHM. You get all the pixels at L75, so what bet did you lose?

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I leveled SMN for fun, actually. All my other jobs out do it in all categories, except maybe buffing, however BLU can do that to some extent (hello AoE 5min haste and more powerful cures than anyone but WHM, including the most MP efficient cure there is) although obviously not as well as SMN.

I still play it somewhat often, but hardly ever in a party setting. I use it to cure on NMs that don't need the level of cures WHM does (95% of seal NMs SMN can heal well enough and keep out an Avatar at all times in abyssea).

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Originally Posted by Dallas

You can be wrong over and over. We'll hit 1000 posts and you will still be wrong. My pet only gets Haste from me. I'm using Hastega. I'm sure even WHM taught by BG are bad enough players to overwrite a 5 minute buff with a 3 minute buff.

It's very easy. If you want a weaker buff, party with weaker players.

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lol, because the SMN is in the DD party. If you want a weaker party, play with a SMN in it.

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Yall feeding dallas need to troll or something, because there's no way that Melee SMN is anything but a joke.

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It keeps going on because you keep posting crap like this and incite others to post more. There's a term people use on the internet for this... Trollling? I think that's what it was called?

It's not "anything but a joke." It has its place and use with the proper preperation. It just just doesn't live up to your standards. That's fine. Doesn't bother me at all. It's not, however, a joke. It's serious business. It is capable of elevating the job beyond whatever current level of patheticness you feel it has, up to a higher level (and this was proven with math). Whatever you want to call it is up to you, as long as you don't impose your immature and elitist feelings and views on others.

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but that doesn't mean the SMN should ever be in the melee party anyway,

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If you have a summoner, they should be treated like any other human being playing any other job and should be given the respect they deserve. I'm sorry that you feel that any kind of SMN falls below your elitist standards, but for the rest of us, it's funcitonal enough to have in a party and get stuff done.For the rest of us below the top 1%, it's still a useful, functional job.

It's not about personal respect or disrespect and never has been, and that is where you fall apart. You keep defending your job to the death when you're being hit with facts and numbers that just go to show that Summoner is practically last place in terms of actual utility. Here's the problem: You're personally invested in the Summoner job. Just because Summoner is bottom of the barrel, does that mean that people who have Summoner leveled are somehow not worthy of respect? No. No one is claiming that.

Summoner as a job is absolutely not worth batting an eye over. It is practically dead last. Every other job in the game that can buff can buff better than Summoner. Every other job in the game that can DD can DD better than summoner. Every other job in the game that can heal can heal as well as or better than Summoner. The jobs in the game that can do more than one of these at a time still do them all better than Summoner. It hasn't been about being the best for 75 pages. It is about being dead bloody last.

Should any of that affect you personally? No. Does any of that say anything about a player behind the monitor? No. Does any of that mean that a player who is on Summoner is trash and bottom of the barrel? No. All it means, and all it will ever mean, is that the job itself is bottom of the barrel.

Will there be good players playing terrible jobs? Always. Will they be preferable to crappy players on good jobs? Always. But at the same time, would those good players be significantly better on good jobs? Hell yes. They would outperform themselves by miles. That is the only real test to be had here. If I get on SMN and play it perfectly, and then get on WHM and play it perfectly and outperform my SMN by a mile and a half (in DD, Buffing, AND healing simultaneously), then I can safely say that I'm far more effective on White Mage than I could ever be on Summoner.

This is the point. No one gives a flying frap if you come Summoner to things. No one gives a flying frap how you spend your time, or what your friends do, or who lets you do what. You are welcome to be on the bottom of the barrel, dead last, worst job in the game as much as you want. If you play it well? Great. You play the game well. But that does not make Summoner any better. That does not make Summoner worthy of any respect as a job class. That does not make Summoner anything other than borderline dead weight, an underperforming blemish on the FFXI job system.

Play Summoner all you want. Enjoy it as much as you want, I'm glad for you and bear you no ill will for it. But don't you dare come in here and tell me that dead last is "Good enough".

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