[dev1017] PLD proposed adjustments

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Actually you haven't done that or anything remotely close to that yet.

At best all you've done is point out that when there isn't anything better available then PLD is awesome.

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Actually I have done that.

And the best you've done is say everthing sucks because someone else can do it better...

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Originally Posted by Dale

NO. I think White Magic nukes suck because they do crap damage for the mp used. It has nothing to do with a Black Mage. If i tried to kill something with my white magic nukes I would be out of MP before the monster was under 75% health. That is why they suck...it has nothing to do with the black mage, or any other mage for that matter.

They suck because they are not effective. Period.

Now I understand you hate paladins and think they are usless. We have established this. I've pointed out why you are wrong, and that's all I can do.

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So how exactly are you judging what can be considered effective and what can't? What is it that White Mage is unable to kill via nukes? How long is too long? How little damage per MP point is too little? White Mage can definitely nuke things to death if they want.

You are drawing completely arbitrary lines and then stepping over as many of them as you want.

Is Banish III super awesome because it can do 500 damage? If no one else could do 500 damage in one hit, damn straight that would be awesome. WHM would be the single best nuker around. If Black mage was doing 400 damage per Blizzard V, then White Mage would be flipping amazing.

Is Vorpal Blade a really cool guy who doesn't afraid of anything because it can average 2k-2.5k in Abyssea? Considering a damn good DD at 75 was lucking to average that high in an ideal environment, sure it may look that way. But is it actually any good? Absolutely not. Vorpal Blade is utter crap. Why? Because it's normal for any good DD to be averaging 4k-5k in Abyssea, and the gap widens tremendously in the real DD's favor outside.

Things are good because of how much they do relative to something else. Is 100 damage/minute good? Is 1,000? Is 10,000? 100,000? How the hell would you know? Oh, that's right, because you can see how much other jobs can do and compare them.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

So how exactly are you judging what can be considered effective and what can't? What is it that White Mage is unable to kill via nukes? How long is too long? How little damage per MP point is too little? White Mage can definitely nuke things to death if they want.

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I've already explained this to you a million times, but I guess I will once again.

If it gets the job done then it's effective.

I can't kill crap with my white mage nukes cause they suck. They would run me out of mp long before the monster was even hardly scratched.

The black magic nukes however (yes, even the tier 4 ones) do quite well and make things go dead.

It's a simple concept and I don't know why you are having such a hard time understanding it. If it works it's good. If it doens't, then it sucks.

My White mage can kill "Things" with nukes. It can do "Quite Well" as long as I'm not comparing it to how well Black Mage does. It can get the job done.

That doesn't make it good.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

My White mage can kill "Things" with nukes. It can do "Quite Well" as long as I'm not comparing it to how well Black Mage does. It can get the job done.

That doesn't make it good.

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Well I don't play white mage so i can't really say, but I know on my pld my white magic nukes suck and I can't kill anything with them. All Holy and Banish II would do is drain my mp and not hurt the monster. In fact - they should rename the HOly Spell to Waste of MP spell, because that's what it is if you ask me. My log should read "jeremi cast Waste of MP" when i use it.

So from my standpoint, your arugment don't hold water. They just suck.

I use my nukes when I play on my red mage.

I don't go anywhere near my nukes when I play my Pld. They don't get the job done. I highly doubt they would if I played white mage either, but since I don't i will refrain from making that claim :)

That is my point. It has nothing to do with black mage or blue mage or any other mage.

"Get the job done".

WHM can kill things with nukes, it just takes longer than BLM.

Paladin can kill things with melee, it just takes longer than WAR.

What the hell can't get the job done in the majority of content in this game. Can a Paladin heal and have people survive? Possibly. Doesn't mean anyone does it. Can a White Mage nuke and kill things? Sure. Doesn't mean anyone does it.

Whm nuking isn't popular because it sucks, but it can "Get the job done" fine if someone's dense enough to do it. That doesn't make it less suck.

More than anything PLD needs a job trait that raises their own hate caps by at least 10%, another trait that negates or greatly mitigates hate loss and finally something to fight that can't be tanked by a BLM.

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Originally Posted by Nicholiathan

More than anything PLD needs a job trait that raises their own hate caps by at least 10%, another trait that negates or greatly mitigates hate loss and finally something to fight that can't be tanked by a BLM.

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This solves nothing PLD still won't be used. X random DDs can all hold hate over mages, mitigate the same damage as PLD and do more damage than PLD thus they are better tanks. Bolded why PLD isn't used as a tank in old content and Abyssea.

Edit: better tanks as defined by the community as a whole.

im still doing the download things. but seems like with cover the person will still need to go behind the pld. which we all know even if ur zerging down anything ur not gonna move behind the pld. and the pld wont move behind u. least i dont. u die its on u not me. i dont expect shield bash to do better numbers either. and with an aegis prolly not gonna be much more maybe 300-350. not gonna be anything high like 500 or so. and considering ochain and aegis are the best shields in the game. i would thing aegis would do more then ochain but we all know this dev team. they love abyssea things. so im honestly expecting ochain to do at least 400 and up and still aegis is shit on even tho it does more to shield bash due to it being a real item to obtain and all.

Edit: first shield bash on a spider in misery. 285 seems like they did nothing with aegis for shiled bash

I think one of the biggest problems with the argument here is that Dale is consistently focusing on whether something is "effective". While others might be looking to argue that something is more or less "efficient".

Effective - producing a decided, decisive, or desired effect <an effective policy>

Now if we're talking about whether or not a job has the capability to produce the desired results, well now we're going to have to look at what the desired result actually is. For some people it's simply to win and in this case any kind of damage output or whatever will work including tactics like DOT kiting. Hence any job can be considered effective. For others the objective of winning is essentially guaranteed as most content is mind numbingly easy so the only real issue is speeding things up to make farming more "efficient".

Efficient - productive of desired effects; especially : productive without waste <an efficient worker>

This is where the real contention should lie. If you go back and compare a Red Mage to a Black Mage when it comes to damage output of spells vs. MP cost. Well, Black Mage is going to win, not only do they have superior increases to overall damage through equipment they also have a more potent MAB job trait (2 more levels of it in fact). We can spin this for any DD as well. While a PLD may in fact be able to deal damage and "effectively" kill and/or tank whatever prey it attacks, a stronger DD (say MNK, WAR, etc.) will undoubtedly be able to do it faster due to increased TP phase dmg/ws dmg/native traits/JAs.

Can a PLD deal damage? Yes
Can a PLD deal more damage and faster than other DD jobs? Most likely not.
Can a RDM nuke? Yes
Can a RDM do more dmg and kill faster than a BLM would? Definitely not.

In summation, PLD + WHM duo can effectively kill off an NM. MNK + WHM duo can kill that NM more efficiently by using the same resources and getting the job done considerably quicker.

P.S. An easier comparison for spell efficiency - Red Mage does 800 dmg Blizzard IV, Black Mage casts the same spell for 1500 dmg. Assuming no conserve MP procs obviously the BLM is more "efficient" because he is using the same MP/spell and doing considerably more DMG. It would take the blm 20 casts to kill a monster with 30k HP and 37.5 casts for a RDM to kill that same monster assuming the same damage occurred on every cast. (Variances in dmg should not change this much unless these spells are resisted heavily and often)

I would like to add some of my own opinion since I have PLD since 2006.

The main reason i played PLD back in 2006 was because I wanted to be Tank.

I have WHM for Main healing.
I have DRK for DDing
I have SMN and DRG for soloing and duoing
I have BRD for buffing parties and constantly pulling mobs and sleeping them.

I wanted a different gameplay. I wanted to Tank. Hold a monster and take the lowest damage possible and be the 1st to die for my parties' survival.

Note: Ninjas have High evasions and Shadows to tank efficiently without getting hit. (Thats the idea of course)


But with PLD, its about Getting Hit, but for WAY LESS than any other jobs. And it can heal itself very effectively.
I decided to do PLD for that very reason.

As a PLD, I expect abilities or spells or Job traits and even gear or atmas that can make PLD do what it suppose to.
I do not mind doing damage as PLD, but if I wanted to be a DD, I wouldn't be playing PLD for DDing. Nor would I play PLD for soloing. If I play PLD, I wana Play PLD as a Tank. What it was made to be.

As a PLD:
I expect to have abilities to hold LOTs OF HATE!
I expect to have abilities or traits to Reduce Major Damages that NMs or monsters do.
I expect WSs that PULL HUGE amounts of Hate and Reduces the Monster's damage input to me and the whole party
(Not damage wise. I'm speaking Enmity Wise)

PLD doesn't need HUGE Damage input to hold hate.
PLD needs a trait that keeps hate and reduces damage per hit it takes, gains hate per hit they take, and per hit they make.

More abilities to use to increase the monsters attention and reduces the monsters attacks.

What I want to see is a PLD take 20 damage from an NM or a monster that normally does 200+ damage per hit on other jobs you see out there!

Is that overpowered? IN NO WAY IT IS!

Why do I say it is NOT overpowered? Because THF and NIN tanks rarely get "Hits" in abyssea for example. While PLDs get hit like a B@#*$! PLDs need to match up with THF and NIN tanks so PLDs can be better if not, equal with NIN and thfs.

Evasion Tanking is a Big deal because if monsters rarely hit you, and you can hold hate, You are very effeciant job choice for events.

Imagen PLD's being effecaint Tanking by having abilities and traits to hold HUGE amounts of Hate while taking HUGE amount of reduced Damages that no jobs out there can take!? Then we can be equal to NIN and THF.

If anything, Call NIN and THF overpowered but with what Im saying if SE improves on for PLD, Then PLDs will be useful again because of "How much HATE" it holds AND the amount of damage they take is Massively low where Its just as good as having a NIN or THF evasion tanking.

I dont care if Shield Bash does some Damage. Thats stupid!
Make Shield Bash take 50% Hate or more from the mob!!!!

I dont care if PLDs can do more Damage!
Make PLDs take Something like 20 damage that equals to 200+ damage from other jobs that take from Mobs!

Make PLD's Equally baddass in tanking if not, better by having abilities to grab hate!

Thats all I have to say lol.

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Originally Posted by Arlan

Why you love/thoughts about PLD

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The thing is a majority of why you chose PLD wasn't anymore true in 2006 than it is today.

Back then PLD tanked with an Earth Staff even in EXP parties, it was accepted that a dedicated TANK slot was needed when it wasn't. PLD was nice HNMs back in the day before DDs really had the boosts they've gotten over the years.

Back then a RDM/NIN was the best defensive tank, granted you had to know how to play it and how hate worked both of which wasn't completely understood back then. RDM/NIN got nerfed in an era that didn't even need a dedicated tank anymore so I'm not sure why SE did that.

The reason I and a few others in the past have advocated giving PLD a more aggressive role in the game is because right now it takes roughly 2 HP cured to equal 1 damage dealt. Inside abyssea, BCNM fights (new and old), and/or old content DDs deal a lot of damage and will generally take the same damage a PLD would take meaning they can not only fill the role of DD but the role of TANK as well which in turn means a quicker end to the fight.

That said Voidwatch from my understanding is very much PLD required at least for some of the fights which is nice and sad to hear. I mean as it stands right now my PLD will see the light outside of town if my friend/LS ever decides to try Voidwatch until then it sits in town occasionally at best.

1 event does not equate to a fixed job. Either all new content will need to be on the scale of Voidwatch so PLD starts showing up again in groups who want to be efficient or PLD needs an offensive boost so it can be a Tank and a DD. Thus welcome in the current gameplay because even if they took 20 damage instead of 200 when a single WHM can manage the DD taking 200 damage hits and the DDs aren't losing hate to the mages PLD won't be needed.

^ Agreed. New content requiring Paladin is always helpful. Though really, and I'm always shot down whenever I say this, I'm of the firm belief that Almace/Ochain/Burtgang+ fixed the majority of what was wrong with Paladin.

Now, can just anyone get an Ochain? Well, yes, but for the sake of argument let's say no because it's a pain in the ass to get and a vast majority of people are lazy/unable to work well with others. So a lot of people don't like to consider an equipment-specific fix a fix to the Paladin job. However, Paladin has always been a particularly equipment-heavy job. Back in its hey-day, it was one of the most complex jobs around, and required easily 3-4x as much gear as any other job in the game bar a good RDM. A lot of that gear was R/EX and/or extremely expensive. None of that has changed.

Now, is that to say that Paladin can't be mildly effective without awesome gear? No. I've most definitely tanked Sandworm and other HNM-esque mobs with little more than AF, a turban, and 500k's worth of whatever I could find after my character was hacked in 2008. Kept pace with my Aegis co-tank too. But that doesn't mean I was anywhere near as good as I could and should have been without my equipment and working macros.

Anyone serious about Paladin and utilizing it post-Abyssea should start investing the time and energy into completing a 90 Ochain. If you want tips for making that nightmare easier? Feel free to ask. If you just want to complain about how hard it is and freak out about how gear shouldn't be required to make a job work? Well, it's your right to post, but I've honestly heard it all before.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

The thing is a majority of why you chose PLD wasn't anymore true in 2006 than it is today.

Back then PLD tanked with an Earth Staff even in EXP parties, it was accepted that a dedicated TANK slot was needed when it wasn't. PLD was nice HNMs back in the day before DDs really had the boosts they've gotten over the years.

Back then a RDM/NIN was the best defensive tank, granted you had to know how to play it and how hate worked both of which wasn't completely understood back then. RDM/NIN got nerfed in an era that didn't even need a dedicated tank anymore so I'm not sure why SE did that.

The reason I and a few others in the past have advocated giving PLD a more aggressive role in the game is because right now it takes roughly 2 HP cured to equal 1 damage dealt. Inside abyssea, BCNM fights (new and old), and/or old content DDs deal a lot of damage and will generally take the same damage a PLD would take meaning they can not only fill the role of DD but the role of TANK as well which in turn means a quicker end to the fight.

That said Voidwatch from my understanding is very much PLD required at least for some of the fights which is nice and sad to hear. I mean as it stands right now my PLD will see the light outside of town if my friend/LS ever decides to try Voidwatch until then it sits in town occasionally at best.

1 event does not equate to a fixed job. Either all new content will need to be on the scale of Voidwatch so PLD starts showing up again in groups who want to be efficient or PLD needs an offensive boost so it can be a Tank and a DD. Thus welcome in the current gameplay because even if they took 20 damage instead of 200 when a single WHM can manage the DD taking 200 damage hits and the DDs aren't losing hate to the mages PLD won't be needed.

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I never said "Why you love/thoughts about PLD" why did you quote that? lol
Other than that, I understand what your saying. Good reply.

I just want to be back in the Tanking business is all =(

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Anyone serious about Paladin and utilizing it post-Abyssea should start investing the time and energy into completing a 90 Ochain. If you want tips for making that nightmare easier? Feel free to ask. If you just want to complain about how hard it is and freak out about how gear shouldn't be required to make a job work? Well, it's your right to post, but I've honestly heard it all before.

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11 Skins away from 85 Almace and then back to working on Ochain (finished plates a while ago). I was wondering if you had any advice on color changing :D haven't found any info other than its "luck". This is the only part I'm worried about since I'm almost certain we'll have the 75 horns before I finish the souls.

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Originally Posted by Arlan

I never said "Why you love/thoughts about PLD"

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I summarized your post so it wasn't a giant quote ^^

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Originally Posted by Zagen

I summarized your post so it wasn't a giant quote ^^

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Ok then lol

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Originally Posted by Zagen

11 Skins away from 85 Almace and then back to working on Ochain (finished plates a while ago). I was wondering if you had any advice on color changing :D haven't found any info other than its "luck". This is the only part I'm worried about since I'm almost certain we'll have the 75 horns before I finish the souls.

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Luck :(. It's sad, but it's really all the advice I can give on changing. I'd camp out in Xarcabard when your group is offline or you're off/on doing other things in rl though. You can buy T3 pops from groups fighting Shiva for seals, and you can probably even snag Souls off of the occasional group that kills Leviathan for the armor drops (I've seen it, once or twice).

If you don't already know, definitely stick with Levi for souls in general. His drop rate on doubles is significantly higher than the other two T3s (hell if I know why), and Levi/Shiva are ridiculously easy fights to boot so it's really a no brainer. I had originally thought about getting some T3s in Altepa while doing plates for a buddy of mine, but after 6 hours and 20 T2s without a single change I just said fruit it.

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Originally Posted by Arlan

I would like to add some of my own opinion since I have PLD since 2006.

The main reason i played PLD back in 2006 was because I wanted to be Tank.

I have WHM for Main healing.
I have DRK for DDing
I have SMN and DRG for soloing and duoing
I have BRD for buffing parties and constantly pulling mobs and sleeping them.

I wanted a different gameplay. I wanted to Tank. Hold a monster and take the lowest damage possible and be the 1st to die for my parties' survival.

Note: Ninjas have High evasions and Shadows to tank efficiently without getting hit. (Thats the idea of course)


But with PLD, its about Getting Hit, but for WAY LESS than any other jobs. And it can heal itself very effectively.
I decided to do PLD for that very reason.

As a PLD, I expect abilities or spells or Job traits and even gear or atmas that can make PLD do what it suppose to.
I do not mind doing damage as PLD, but if I wanted to be a DD, I wouldn't be playing PLD for DDing. Nor would I play PLD for soloing. If I play PLD, I wana Play PLD as a Tank. What it was made to be.

As a PLD:
I expect to have abilities to hold LOTs OF HATE!
I expect to have abilities or traits to Reduce Major Damages that NMs or monsters do.
I expect WSs that PULL HUGE amounts of Hate and Reduces the Monster's damage input to me and the whole party
(Not damage wise. I'm speaking Enmity Wise)

PLD doesn't need HUGE Damage input to hold hate.
PLD needs a trait that keeps hate and reduces damage per hit it takes, gains hate per hit they take, and per hit they make.

More abilities to use to increase the monsters attention and reduces the monsters attacks.

What I want to see is a PLD take 20 damage from an NM or a monster that normally does 200+ damage per hit on other jobs you see out there!

Is that overpowered? IN NO WAY IT IS!

Why do I say it is NOT overpowered? Because THF and NIN tanks rarely get "Hits" in abyssea for example. While PLDs get hit like a B@#*$! PLDs need to match up with THF and NIN tanks so PLDs can be better if not, equal with NIN and thfs.

Evasion Tanking is a Big deal because if monsters rarely hit you, and you can hold hate, You are very effeciant job choice for events.

Imagen PLD's being effecaint Tanking by having abilities and traits to hold HUGE amounts of Hate while taking HUGE amount of reduced Damages that no jobs out there can take!? Then we can be equal to NIN and THF.

If anything, Call NIN and THF overpowered but with what Im saying if SE improves on for PLD, Then PLDs will be useful again because of "How much HATE" it holds AND the amount of damage they take is Massively low where Its just as good as having a NIN or THF evasion tanking.

I dont care if Shield Bash does some Damage. Thats stupid!
Make Shield Bash take 50% Hate or more from the mob!!!!

I dont care if PLDs can do more Damage!
Make PLDs take Something like 20 damage that equals to 200+ damage from other jobs that take from Mobs!

Make PLD's Equally baddass in tanking if not, better by having abilities to grab hate!

Thats all I have to say lol.

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Quoted for truth.
I've felt this way for a LONG time. I think SE should just give PLDs a job trait equivalent to PDT/MDT-x%.

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Originally Posted by Twille

Quoted for truth.
I've felt this way for a LONG time. I think SE should just give PLDs a job trait equivalent to PDT/MDT-x%.

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damage resistance instead of damage taken (same thing but separate term )

Fervor JT: Grants 20% damage and attack bonus when the Paladin has the monsters attention. Paladin auto attacks tend to do little to no damage against hnm because of the way one needs to gear defensively. This bonus would help the paladin deal consistent damage and make up for all the time they lose with non damage abilities to keep hate.

Thwart JA: Job ability that reduces damage taken by 75% but lasts only 4 seconds and the paladin cannot move or attack for the duration.

Netherspikes JA or Spell: An attack used by fomors, cone damage plus bind. change the color of the graphic to white/blue and make the bind effect a flat 5 second duration. Using it would prep a light skillchain, and the 5 second bind would ensure any follow up weaponskills would hit their target. could also be used to buy time if the paladin lost hate control.

Trait that grants more enmity on offensive divine magic and healing.

2 hand greatsword traits and abilities: Would give pld a little more dd potential when he finds himself not being used for tanking. Backup tank + light dd.

Spearhead JA: Sacrifice +15% damage taken for 15% gear haste 5 min duration 5 min cooldown. Enhances the total magic damage (duration) of enlight by 100%

Conviction JT: Converts 50% of Vit to Str and 50% of mnd to Dex. 2 hand only.

Intervention JA: Forces the enemy to attack the pld for the next 5 seconds, reduces enmity. Would be used as a backup tanking tool to buy some time to save a teammate. Only works in close range.

Grace JT: 2 handed weaponskills have a chance to restore 25% of the plds mp

Some whm reforms that would help pld as well:
Cure potency becomes divine magic attack bonus.
Holy, Banish, Comet: scaled to be comparable in damage to black mage top tier spells, however limited by element and higher cooldowns.

This would let pld have some magical sources of damage and enmity, and give a better reason to add cure potency to their sets.

Doing these suggestions would also open up paladin to different sub jobs like sch, sam, etc.

I would be really happy if we got provoke as our own job ability, anything more is gravy.