[dev1017] Job Adjustments and Refinements

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

@RDM melee

Want to do damage?
Atma: RR/SS/Apoc
Almace/DA ToM Sword/none/white tathlum
Zelus/torque(or Torero)/suppa/brutal
goliard/dusk+1/keen(or heed)/rajas
atheling/goading(or ninurta)/nashira/dusk+1

You can then at least say you'll be doing more damage than PLD anyway.

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because pld cant cap haste and DW almace/DA?

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Why is PLD on that list lol, no job needs more work

The rest I agree with though, other than maybe SAM and SCH since they both get sidelined for WAR and BLM or WHM.

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Why on that list?

1) Every single update adds new PLD gear.
2) I keep seeing PLDs in my LS solo holding NMs because frankly they have unlimited MP and take little damage. If they got any new ability to tank, they'd be unkillable. I even know of PLDs who accidentally got 3 VT mobs aggro and they just wittled down all 3 solo. I'm sure they had relic shield though, but it is still a silly strong job when you can just go out and solo a bunch of monsters without fear of dying. If my SMN for example had 3 VT on the avatar, it would be dead in 5 seconds. And avatars have 50% damage reduction.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Why on that list?

1) Every single update adds new PLD gear.
2) I keep seeing PLDs in my LS solo holding NMs because frankly they have unlimited MP and take little damage. If they got any new ability to tank, they'd be unkillable. I even know of PLDs who accidentally got 3 VT mobs aggro and they just wittled down all 3 solo. I'm sure they had relic shield though, but it is still a silly strong job when you can just go out and solo a bunch of monsters without fear of dying. If my SMN for example had 3 VT on the avatar, it would be dead in 5 seconds. And avatars have 50% damage reduction.

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You haven't heard of the "Hundred Shields" thing?

Also, SMN needs a major update, bad! We got what, near squat in killing ability since before abyssea came out.

We got 2 new avatars, one defensive and one "maybe" offensive, and that offensive one was like a new Nether Blast or whatever Diabolos's 2hr is. Well, at least on anything important.

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Originally Posted by Selzak

Pls halp, my job is broken because it doesn't deal the most damage.

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Yeah dammit! where's my freaking 3k+ bard nuke?!

seriously, you hit the nail on the head, everyone acts like their job should be the damage king, and if it isn't SE is neglecting it. They aren't. The various jobs are all designed to be INCOMPLETE! This was done to foster party-based play. Job skills overlap so that any of several jobs can be used to fill a party niche, but even then how that niche is approached by any give job is different. Even beast, which was actually designed to largely solo lacks any native healing ability, relegating it to either inferior healing off its sub-job, its pet or else a good deal of downtime while you rest.

SE has always-to an extent-made every job look outside of itself for the solutions to its shortcomings. I have this sneaking suspicion that SE is actually still committed to party-based play (despite all the jags demanding their job be made capable of soloing Absolute Virtue naked with a level 1 club) and designs their job changes with this in mind. To a large extent, I think they succeed, but players generally can't seem to see beyond the damage number for the highest hit. Wrong way to evaluate jobs people, by that standard every caster but black or blue mage is "useless" as an example.

Some party roles aren't even to produce damage. A puller in a party that's really rolling (with no downtime) should only be doing whatever damage their pull technique (presumably a ranged attack, unless you use a bard) does, with them on the way to get the next whatever. Healers, whack away if you've got the time and can live but expect to be taken to task if I die because you were too busy trying to melee. Tanks... ninja might be capable of some respectable damage even if pld isn't but your job is to keep the mob off of my back, the damage is a bonus. Support roles, depends on your tools and what you are asked to support, but within the realms of that I expect that you do that (within reason, if you are support, puller, back-up healer, main sleeper and chest popper you may have your hands just a bit full).

So, this thread started with RDM getting no love.... if I may be so presumptuous to point out, even if you had a large number would have been in here QQing about how whatever love you got was the wrong thing. RDM is a multipurpose job, and the players I've watched all seem to like different roles, so your DD rdms would whine about curing, the healer-types would whine about NOT getting cures, etc. until all of you can agree on what you want how the hell is SE supposed to accomodate you with a few tweaks?

^ err, what? Generalizing a bit much there aren't you?

SMN is a job bordering on irrelevance at this point. It spends more MP to do less damage than BLM & SCH, doesn't have the option to melee like RDM (who can now deal pretty good damage with Chant) and gets outclassed by pretty much all the other support classes in that respect too.

At least at 75, the 70 BPs were semi-valuable for hate-free damage. But even that's pretty much been taken away (especially inside Abyssea) with all the recent updates. Never mind that avatars feed the mob 10 TP per swing, for often sub-par damage outside of abyssea.


So yes, SMN has ever right to complain, just as it has since it's implementation. For whatever reason(s), it seems to be the hardest job for SE to balance.


EDIT: And as far as BRD goes, you can argue that they contribute a tonne of damage by way of buffing the DD's (though I suppose that's not enough for a minority of whiners out there.)

After all the talk of summoner adjustments (While SE wont do adjustments on the jobs nobody really plays.) I really interested to see whats actually in store for the job.

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SMN is a job bordering on irrelevance at this point. It spends more MP to do less damage than BLM & SCH

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I've never seen a BLM or SCH do 15000 damage with a single spell. SMN can do that with heavenly strike and ice attack atmas.

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Originally Posted by Malacite

^ err, what? Generalizing a bit much there aren't you?

SMN is a job bordering on irrelevance at this point. It spends more MP to do less damage than BLM & SCH, doesn't have the option to melee like RDM (who can now deal pretty good damage with Chant) and gets outclassed by pretty much all the other support classes in that respect too.

At least at 75, the 70 BPs were semi-valuable for hate-free damage. But even that's pretty much been taken away (especially inside Abyssea) with all the recent updates. Never mind that avatars feed the mob 10 TP per swing, for often sub-par damage outside of abyssea.


So yes, SMN has ever right to complain, just as it has since it's implementation. For whatever reason(s), it seems to be the hardest job for SE to balance.


EDIT: And as far as BRD goes, you can argue that they contribute a tonne of damage by way of buffing the DD's (though I suppose that's not enough for a minority of whiners out there.)

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the bard comment was sarcasm. And thank you for making my point, even if you didn't intend to. Bard's contribution isn't in what they do themselves so much, but in what they make the party they are supporting do. I don't actually WANT bard to be nuking (but make requiem work on SOMETHING dammit!), because bard is not a nuking job. We can be a fairly decent melee if we dual daggers, but that's not the thrust of the job and I don't expect any changes to make that different... nor do I want it.

the point was not every job can be the top DD job, nor should they be. And yes, I am generalizing. Read all 20 of the job forums, you'll notice a common theme: all 20 jobs complaining that they aren't the top job in the game. You've got whms asking for a massive nuke spell and a melee DD set with JA to match, dnc whining about wanting raise and RR, Everyjob but nin whining to get DW 5, the list goes on.

My point was that it's entirely possible that the reason your job (whatever it is) isn't the top DD in the game is that the designers don't want it to be. They may change the method from job to job but the general ratio is that the more a job can do offensively, the less they can do defensively. Example dark-awesome at 2 things, damage and sucking up all of the MP of several healers. Now abyssea has largely broken this ratio, which is unfortunate since this is pretty much what game balance has always been.

Summoner has always done respectable damage, and regardless of the whining of a few they really still do. Certainly, a sam hits harder than your avatar, they're built for it. The balance? You can be out of range inflicting your damage while the Sam is in there eating AoEs, and there's no better defense than being out of damage range (a good thing since a smn's defense is so pathetic you can die if someone just hurts your feelings). Red mage too still does decent damage. Are they going to outdamage a Sam on melee or a Blm nuking? No. But they do tend to out-live them.

All of this is still with the caveat "unless you're gimp". If your out there with level 30-40 skills fighting level 90 mobs you deserve to die, call it an educational oportunity.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I've never seen a BLM or SCH do 15000 damage with a single spell.* SMN can do that with heavenly strike and ice attack atmas.

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*Without brew

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

the bard comment was sarcasm. the point was not every job can be the top DD job, nor should they be. And yes, I am generalizing. Read all 20 of the job forums, you'll notice a common theme: all 20 jobs complaining that they aren't the top job in the game. You've got whms asking for a massive nuke spell and a melee DD set with JA to match, dnc whining about wanting raise and RR, Everyjob but nin whining to get DW 5, the list goes on.

My point was that it's entirely possible that the reason your job (whatever it is) isn't the top DD in the game is that the designers don't want it to be. They may change the method from job to job but the general ratio is that the more a job can do offensively, the less they can do defensively. Example dark-awesome at 2 things, damage and sucking up all of the MP of several healers. Now abyssea has largely broken this ratio, which is unfortunate since this is pretty much what game balance has always been.

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Except every complaint isn't a baseless one.

A job like WAR may not need adjustments because it can do its job properly but would you call a request to make BST relevant simply whining? How about PUP? RNG? SCH?

While you may have a point with RDM where the job lacks shine within Abyssea, the class will largely fix itself outside. You have melee complaints here and there but the job is largely functional. It can support, nuke, cure and solo relatively well.

RDM is in good place outside Abyssea. Short of a Phenilune type Cure spell and some melee tweaks to satisfy the die-hard fencers, the job will go back to being support fluff at anything that needs a support line.

Then you have classes like BST PUP and RNG where SE has a vision but without patches these jobs will still be on the never used list in party content. Why?

Beastmaster lacks offensive might, has to choose between buffing the pet ("pet:" sets) or buffing yourself (typical DD gear) and has few tools to improve the power of the pet. In a pool full of easier to play DD, BST suffers from being a house divided.

It can solo awesome but its party mechanics have always been suspect and this is supposedly a party-oriented game right? Where are the BST adjustments I say to SE.

Ranger is supposed to be a ranged offensive yet can't help but wind up dead if played correctly. With little to no threat reduction tools, most RNG become a mage's nuisance while doing less damage than a standard DD in the fray eating AOE.

Why field a Ranger when it can't stay at a distance for long? Why give BLM Enmity Douse yet snub RNG?

Puppetmaster suffers from pet job syndrome where the automaton is just too clunky to deal with, maneuvers eat up master DPS and overall it's lack of purpose or direction leads towards mediocrity in the over-saturated world of DD.

Who cares if you have multiple puppet frames when the mage AI is hopelessly stupid, the WAR maton has crappy melee ability and the RNG frame can't stay a distance without doing terrible damage?

Puppetmaster needs help and the tweaks SE tosses around add very little to the underlying problems.

SE can't fix everything but some classes have legitimate concerns that should continue to be voiced until fixed.

And lastly Summoner.

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I've never seen a BLM or SCH do 15000 damage with a single spell. SMN can do that with heavenly strike and ice attack atmas.

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In Abyssea Bards can pass as viable DD and your 15000 damage means little without proper procs anyway. I can 2-shot Apademak on COR but does that make Corsair anything special when the brews off in Abyssea? Nope.

Abyssea is a lost cause anyway. SE is supposed to be looking to the future of the game where all classes are supposed to "matter". The proc system makes a handful of jobs useful and everyone else is stuck trying to look useful.

Outside in the real world SMN has more of a fighting chance when SE gets around to tough enough mobs where being close to a mob means winding up dead. Voidwatch brought some life back into SMN-friendly endgame but frankly the lackluster drops and unpolished event leaves one scratching their heads and wondering "This is the heir to Abyssea?"

15000? I assume that is with a brew, since the highest I've seen is 6k, with the "once every 5 hours" AF3 set proc on a DC monster without any particular resistance. When the average nuke with Shiva, level 5 merit BP and MAB atmas is 3-4k, pulling out numbers like 15000 doesn't hold any weight at all. (And this if 4k on mobs without resistance. Resistant mobs cap you out at like 1-2k nukes every minute)

Still, I have no complaints on the actual damage numbers on SMN. (Except that Shiva nukes for 2k on Panktrator and Odin 2 hours for 2k on it). The problem SMN has is everything else.

For example low level pacts. One way to view them is like low level weaponskills. They should become useless. Or you view them as magic spells due to the MP cost, and then they should be separate timers so that you just like a RDM can apply blind, paralyze and slow without it taking 3 minutes to do.

Currently it is viewed as both. It costs you MP, to just apply slow and some damage and disable your DD ability for a minute. If a WAR doesn't have to pay MP for Fullbreak, why should SMN? It's a WS that already costs you your DD move so it has a huge penalty without additional MP involved.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

(a good thing since a smn's defense is so pathetic you can die if someone just hurts your feelings)

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I have KO'd so many SMN over the years.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

RDM is a multipurpose job, and the players I've watched all seem to like different roles, so your DD rdms would whine about curing, the healer-types would whine about NOT getting cures, etc. until all of you can agree on what you want how the hell is SE supposed to accomodate you with a few tweaks?

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This is mostly because some people in both camps either trample the playstyle of the other camp, or can't comprehend the concept of a class having more than one viable role in group play if supported by game mechanics. Granted, XI's playerbase is the farthest you can get from flexible, which has never helped matters.

I'm kind of an outsider to that part of the discussion, as I'd willingly take nerfs or JAs with restrictions and other things of that sort to make my desired role and playstyle a reality...well, within reason. Nerfing healing spell casting speeds while in melee mode to make healing inconvenient while front-lining is very different from just making a melee RDM unable to cast cures altogether, for example.

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RDM is in good place outside Abyssea. Short of a Phenilune type Cure spell and some melee tweaks to satisfy the die-hard fencers, the job will go back to being support fluff at anything that needs a support line.

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Hence all the complaining. Just because a role exists does not mean all Red Mages want that role. Otherwise the melee camp would have never existed.

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Originally Posted by hiko

because pld cant cap haste and DW almace/DA?

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because PLD can't cast haste on itself

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I've never seen a BLM or SCH do 15000 damage with a single spell. SMN can do that with heavenly strike and ice attack atmas.

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Screenshot or it didn't happen.

Seriously though, that's never happened. Brews don't even carry over to pets iirc. Even in that case, BLM can go over shown damage anyway (which isn't 15k, but 64k+).

*Dauntless changes stances!*

Alright, I was wrong. I'll admit it.

Although I still feel 100% the same about RNG, DRK needs a crit WS (Insurgency would be golden.) and something to make them actually casting spells relevant, and DRG needs a way to keep their wyverns alive.

If anyone says "Just use spirit link" I'm going to punch a baby.

I've actually got a Screenshot laying around with a 11,000 Damage Heavenly Strike, was a Set bonus Proc (Which FYI Has a pretty decent proc rate).

That being said, I don't feel like i need to math out how even 11,000 Damage is still absolutely garbage compared to any DD worth their own.

Lower the BP Delay cap to 30 already >:|

You guys also forget, a brew is worthless to the avatar. Doesn't give the avatar anything.

Brews are only good for the player.

So, 15k damage on a mob is without brew, and I the most I seen was 12k. Most I have done is 11k.

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(Which FYI Has a pretty decent proc rate)

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I don't know what you call decent, but for me it is always once per 5 hour evening. Or something along once every 100 pacts. Which would be 1% trigger with 5 AF3+2 parts.

I know I'm the unluckiest person on the earth, so that is probably your minimum amount of triggers.

It is actually interesting to see that some get 11k-15k numbers on their triggers, while I've only seen as high as 6k. Is the damage bonus based on how much your blood boon saves in MP as well? Because I can't imagine swapping the refresh atma for another MAB atma would give x2 damage on a trigger. (Assuming these 12k people actually had 3 MAB atmas on)

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I've actually got a Screenshot laying around with a 11,000 Damage Heavenly Strike, was a Set bonus Proc (Which FYI Has a pretty decent proc rate).

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It only has around 5% proc rate...I guess it would seem right only because of the way the avatar deals its damage every 45 sec....it would be kinda imba if no BP:R timers existed and your are able to BP:R at will.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

It is actually interesting to see that some get 11k-15k numbers on their triggers, while I've only seen as high as 6k. Is the damage bonus based on how much your blood boon saves in MP as well? Because I can't imagine swapping the refresh atma for another MAB atma would give x2 damage on a trigger. (Assuming these 12k people actually had 3 MAB atmas on)

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It varies depending on the % of MP saved from Blood Boon.

1/2 MP saved = 50% damage increase (150% total damage)
3/4 MP saved = 75% damage increase (175% total damage)
7/8 MP saved = 100% damage increase (200% total damage)

And the proc rate is about 5% with two +2 items, increasing as you get more items. Since the proc rate of Blood Boon is so low anyway, I think that with all 5 pieces, I get about a 20% proc rate when it saves me MP on Blood Boon. Still not a lot since I think Blood Boon is about ~25% proc rate for me every 45 seconds (Soulscourge (+5%), Caller's Spats +2 (+10%) and initial trait ~10%) to get a 20% proc rate for +2 set (.25 * .2 = .05, so you are looking at 5% proc rate with full set)

As for atmas, Beyond + Minkin + Ultimate are my choices. Most of the time I get 11k damage is when I'm fighting IT++ or NMs though. Maybe if I fight something that takes triple damage on magical damage, it would look even better.

No, Just to be very clear Blood Boon and Blood Boon Augment do NOT share/stack%

It makes sense because why would SE allow up to 50% proc rate with Blood Boon Agument

You would proc more than 55% of .x damage...would be nice but extremely imba.

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

No, Just to be very clear Blood Boon and Blood Boon Augment do NOT share/stack%

It makes sense because why would SE allow up to 50% proc rate with Blood Boon Agument

You would proc more than 55% of .x damage...would be nice but extremely imba.

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I didn't say they share the same proc rate.

I said that (for me) I proc Blood Boon at about 25% of the time.

I also said that 5/5 +2 set is about 20% (at least, I think it is, would make sense, and that's about the rate I eyeballed it as)

Since 1/4 of the time I use a Blood Pact: Rage I end up saving MP from Blood Boon, and about 1/5 of the time Blood Boon set procs, it would make sense to say that 1/5th of 1/4 (1/20) would be around average of all the Blood Pacts to proc set bonus.

Which goes about the same rate as other AF+2 set bonuses.

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You would proc more than 55% of .x damage...would be nice but extremely imba.

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I think it is quite the opposite of imba if I play SMN every single day and have never seen an 11k proc so far. But the random number generator has always worked against me.

It's always been like this. SMN being great at damage, once a blue moon. Would it kill the game if SMN was good once a day or something?

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I think it is quite the opposite of imba if I play SMN every single day and have never seen an 11k proc so far. But the random number generator has always worked against me.

It's always been like this. SMN being great at damage, once a blue moon. Would it kill the game if SMN was good once a day or something?

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With perfect defense, SMN is good every 2 hours.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I didn't say they share the same proc rate.

I said that (for me) I proc Blood Boon at about 25% of the time.

I also said that 5/5 +2 set is about 20% (at least, I think it is, would make sense, and that's about the rate I eyeballed it as)

Since 1/4 of the time I use a Blood Pact: Rage I end up saving MP from Blood Boon, and about 1/5 of the time Blood Boon set procs, it would make sense to say that 1/5th of 1/4 (1/20) would be around average of all the Blood Pacts to proc set bonus.

Which goes about the same rate as other AF+2 set bonuses.

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npnp just going by what you said.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

With perfect defense, SMN is good every 2 hours.

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Go solo Brazen Bones in the Canal as any of your listed jobs, including SMN.

Or Onvi

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Go solo Brazen Bones in the Canal as any of your listed jobs, including SMN.

Or Onvi

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Not sure the point you're trying to make here.

SMN is not good for just one thing, that was my point.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

With perfect defense, SMN is good every 2 hours.

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If you have to wait 2 hours to kill something, and you need a SMN to do it, you need someone to teach you to play both jobs.

Although I agree with Dallas on this point, I wish that he would word it better as to not sound so aggressive...

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Go solo Brazen Bones in the Canal as any of your listed jobs, including SMN.

Or Onvi

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He could solo Ovni on MNK BLM BLU or WHM straight out. WAR probably.

No idea who Brazen Bones is.

Mmm... my point is SMN is pretty much a two trick pony

1. Kite.
2. Perfect Defense.

Not that either are needed.

EDIT: That's not to say it's not capable of other things, but it in no way performs on the level of the other jobs that could do those things. (DD, Nuke, Heal, Buff)

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Originally Posted by RaenRyong

He could solo Ovni on MNK BLM BLU or WHM straight out. WAR probably.

No idea who Brazen Bones is.

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Its a rather unimportant NM down in Toraimorai. That's why I was confused when he used that specific NM as an example.

Granted it's level 85, Im sure a BLU could easily solo.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

With perfect defense, SMN is good every 2 hours chest.

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F.T.F.Y.
¨¨

I used Brazen Bones because it has a very potent En-Blizzard and Ice Spikes on it.

Generally speaking, it is something you wouldn't zerg down, so you have to kill it with another method.

And as far as I know, I'm still the only person in this game who soloed it at 75. People have tried, but I was the only one who succeeded.

I know it wasn't an important NM, and it doesn't drop anything worthwhile, but it was a challenge. Probably still so at this level too.

Doesn't really help to justify SMN though since it's not a meaningful NM :X

It's meaningful because it was a challenge. No one gives a fark what it drops.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Although I agree with Dallas on this point, I wish that he would word it better as to not sound so aggressive...

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If I can't make you post less about things you have never done, why are you worried for this guy?