Claim System + Call for Help Code = Win

It certainly would help reduce a lot of unnecessary drama. I approve 100%


It's especially frustrating for pet jobs, BST in particular, as sometimes mobs will go yellow while in the process of swapping pets.

There's a massive difference between "Losing claim for a fraction of a second due to one person getting charmed, killed, DC'd, warped, etc etc etc..." and "Your alliance has completely and totally been annihilated". And this thread is discussing the former, and it's a red herring to introduce the latter.

I also understand that Zombie'ing sucks for those who are watching it happen... But just go do something else... If they're "blocking your content" then your 'stealing the mob' is "blocking their content"; with the added caveat that the stealers didn't earn the pop set... Not everyone is on the same level. Some people are still learning how to do certain things. Rage timer is there for a reason, as stated previously. There's no reason players can't be civil in those situations, and there's no reason players shouldn't be punished for not being civil in those situations.

Speaking of civility, can we make this a discussion?
I like the differing views, even if I don't agree, but some of the back-and-forth here is a little childish. In short, drop the personal attacks please.

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And a mob going white for a second doesn't mean that the popping group has "zero chance of defeating the mob"

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if you wiped, yes, you do have zero chance without zombie tactics and for most jobs except BLU you become useless after dying a second time. It's not a BS excuse, it's normally true.

Someone betting from something is better than no one benefitting from something. now, do not paint me as someone who preys on people who fail to kill NMs. if I see an unclaimed NM and a bunch of bodies on the ground, I will ask them if they're done or not. In most cases they are- If several people have AoA they might zombie it, but outside of that there is rarely a recovery from a full wipe in abyssea, especially given NMs rage after a period of time.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

if you wiped, yes, you do have zero chance without zombie tactics and for most jobs except BLU you become useless after dying a second time. It's not a BS excuse, it's normally true.[...]

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Again, not talking about wiping here.

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Originally Posted by Frost

There's a massive difference between "Losing claim for a fraction of a second due to one person getting charmed, killed, DC'd, warped, etc etc etc..." and "Your alliance has completely and totally been annihilated". And this thread is discussing the former, and it's a red herring to introduce the latter.

I also understand that Zombie'ing sucks for those who are watching it happen... But just go do something else... If they're "blocking your content" then your 'stealing the mob' is "blocking their content"; with the added caveat that the stealers didn't earn the pop set... Not everyone is on the same level. Some people are still learning how to do certain things. Rage timer is there for a reason, as stated previously. There's no reason players can't be civil in those situations, and there's no reason players shouldn't be punished for not being civil in those situations.

Speaking of civility, can we make this a discussion?
I like the differing views, even if I don't agree, but some of the back-and-forth here is a little childish. In short, drop the personal attacks please.

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It is absolutely not difficult to shift claim to someone who is not in any danger of dying if the person who has sole claim is about to do so, or is about to be charmed. This is the point for a lot of people. Understanding how systems work and acting on that understanding is an important part of the game. The claim system is just another one of those systems. Its workings are very simple and predictable. The opus is on the player to take the appropriate action when a charm, death, or disengage happens or is imminent.

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Originally Posted by Frost

There's a massive difference between "Losing claim for a fraction of a second due to one person getting charmed, killed, DC'd, warped, etc etc etc..." and "Your alliance has completely and totally been annihilated".

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I agree, this thread is not offering a good solution to the problem though.

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I also understand that Zombie'ing sucks for those who are watching it happen... But just go do something else... If they're "blocking your content" then your 'stealing the mob' is "blocking their content"; with the added caveat that the stealers didn't earn the pop set... Not everyone is on the same level. Some people are still learning how to do certain things. Rage timer is there for a reason, as stated previously. There's no reason players can't be civil in those situations, and there's no reason players shouldn't be punished for not being civil in those situations.

Speaking of civility, can we make this a discussion?
I like the differing views, even if I don't agree, but some of the back-and-forth here is a little childish. In short, drop the personal attacks please.

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Both a fighting group and a waiting group should be having some consideration for each other. Zombie behavior may or may not work (it usually doesn't) and takes a long time. Especially if the area is crowded, you are wasting other people's time on the off chance that if you die enough times, you might be able to get it killed. In this case, the fighting group really should step aside for the waiting group. At the same time, the waiting group should be polite and civil, and either offer to help or otherwise work out a solution with the first group. If one or the other is being uncooperative though, there is little room for choice. No one likes waiting around for what might be a vain attempt (An LS I was in missed a Tiamat pull once and we sat there for over 7 hours while the group that claimed was constantly dying and doing little damage), and there are rules in the code of conduct that govern this. If a GM determines that a group is taking an unreasonable amount of time or has not made much/any progress, they will give another group the green light to go ahead and take it.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

It is absolutely not difficult to shift claim to someone who is not in any danger of dying if the person who has sole claim is about to do so, or is about to be charmed. This is the point for a lot of people. Understanding how systems work and acting on that understanding is an important part of the game. The claim system is just another one of those systems. Its workings are very simple and predictable. The opus is on the player to take the appropriate action when a charm, death, or disengage happens or is imminent.

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I understand that you're on the side of the argument on the bias that "If it's in the game this way, then it's intentional" or "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". But what is the practical application of having a monster go unclaimed when someone disconnects? Or when one person out of eighteen dies to an instant death move? Or a ranger Weaponskills and the mob is kited out of range? Etc.

When a group of people is in full control of a mob, and it goes unclaimed, that's an error.

This game is you against the environment the game was developed under the premise of teamwork; with the players on one side of the line, and the monster hoardes etc, on the other. At no point was the game ever intended to be players stealing from one another. Players aren't an "unfortunate environmental circumstance"... Defending a glitch as an intended dynamic when it goes contrary to the general theme and presentation of a game is faulty thinking.

It's like playing poker and somehow getting 2 Ace of Spades in your hand from a fresh deck. You don't just 'keep going' and revel in your luck... You stop, fix the error, and move on.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

[...]If a GM determines that a group is taking an unreasonable amount of time or has not made much/any progress, they will give another group the green light to go ahead and take it.

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There you go, you solved your side of the debate on zombie'ing. Which is not the problem being presented in this thread.

As for what's actually being presented, leaving the monster claimed to the group until everyone is dead is a good solution. If they take long enough to rage the mob then that solution is enacted forcefully on the players.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

if you wiped, yes, you do have zero chance without zombie tactics and for most jobs except BLU you become useless after dying a second time. It's not a BS excuse, it's normally true.

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Kiting is hard. I've recovered from a death while soloing seiryu, without dying at all (except for the first death). It really is not hard to recover from a wipe without zombying.

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As for what's actually being presented, leaving the monster claimed to the group until everyone is dead is a good solution. If they take long enough to rage the mob then that solution is enacted forcefully on the players.

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It's not a good solution because you can have people alive in the alliance but not able to fight. As long as someone has Atma of the Apocalypse, you can effectively keep an NM locked down forever (until someone invokes a GM to make you give it up for taking too long)

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Originally Posted by Frost

I understand that you're on the side of the argument on the bias that "If it's in the game this way, then it's intentional" or "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". But what is the practical application of having a monster go unclaimed when someone disconnects? Or when one person out of eighteen dies to an instant death move? Or a ranger Weaponskills and the mob is kited out of range? Etc.

When a group of people is in full control of a mob, and it goes unclaimed, that's an error.

This game is you against the environment the game was developed under the premise of teamwork; with the players on one side of the line, and the monster hoardes etc, on the other. At no point was the game ever intended to be players stealing from one another. Players aren't an "unfortunate environmental circumstance"... Defending a glitch as an intended dynamic when it goes contrary to the general theme and presentation of a game is faulty thinking.

It's like playing poker and somehow getting 2 Ace of Spades in your hand from a fresh deck. You don't just 'keep going' and revel in your luck... You stop, fix the error, and move on.

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Having a monster go unclaimed when a person disconnects or dies is simply a side-effect of the much more fundamental rule of claiming. If you disengage the monster, for any reason, while you have sole claim over it, the monster goes white. If you die? You disengage. If you disconnect? You disengage. If you zone? You disengage. If you go out of range? You disengage.

Can it happen that the person with sole claim disconnects and a monster goes white? Yes. Should it ever? Absolutely not. Why? Because characters stay in the game with a red dot for a minimum of 30 seconds after a player has disconnected from the server. That 30 seconds should always be more than sufficient for any other member of the player's party to exert sole claim over the monster. If the disconnecting player is a DD that is attacking the mob (and continuing to automatically do so while disconnecting), move the NM away from said disconnecting DD so that they do not have the opportunity to reassert claim.

Can it happen when a single person in an alliance of 18 dies? Yes. Should it happen? Realistically, no, not unless said person was the only melee engaged on the NM (as auto-attacking a monster is the easiest/fastest way to constantly reassert sole claim). If they were, for some reason, the only melee engaged on the monster, there is still a window in which the 17 mages/others should be reasserting their claim before the monster goes white. This is not an instantaneous process. It is no more difficult than stunning a TP move (in fact, it is easier compared to most TP moves).

You assert that this is a glitch. I assert that everything is working 100% as intended. Alliances never, ever have claim over a monster. One person has claim over a monster at any given time, and the rest of his alliance is able to act on his monster because they are in a party with him. When the player who currently has claim disengages for any reason, claim is in flux for 1-2 seconds. When no one in the player's group acts, claim is forfeit. Once claim is forfeit, anyone in the player's group can reclaim with a single action. As an anti-steal measure, it requires 2 consecutive actions for any outside party to take claim (unless, of course, they were already on the hate list by curing the original party or somesuch).

There is no exploit happening. There is no glitch. The system is working 100% as intended. You forfeit claim when you disengage the monster you have claim over, and no one else on the hate list steps up to reclaim the forfeited claim.

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Originally Posted by Frost

I also understand that Zombie'ing sucks for those who are watching it happen... But just go do something else... If they're "blocking your content" then your 'stealing the mob' is "blocking their content"; with the added caveat that the stealers didn't earn the pop set... Not everyone is on the same level. Some people are still learning how to do certain things. Rage timer is there for a reason, as stated previously. There's no reason players can't be civil in those situations, and there's no reason players shouldn't be punished for not being civil in those situations.

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Bold part: This is what you actually have to convince the naysayers about. But it will be damn difficult to do so, as their entire philosophy and way of life is based on that one statement. They are "good" only because other people "suck".

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

This would enable people to apoc zombie something forever

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60 min rage timer.

Mob stays claimed until everyone in alliance is dead.

Unclaim button through entire alliance's menu (or leader only).

Go do something else if you're not part of the zombie group.

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And the current Claim system is there in order to keep morons from clogging up content.

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That's bollocks, SE had no idea how popular Abyss was going to be.

It wasn't really that relevant before Abyss either, because the content simply wasn't there to clog. Problems with the claim system have really (and I mean really) been magnified by the game content we've got over the past year. In particular it's the fact that there's every type of player in Abyss from innocent care bear types to the cut-throat "stop having fun" people.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

That's bollocks, SE had no idea how popular Abyss was going to be.

It wasn't really that relevant before Abyss either, because the content simply wasn't there to clog. Problems with the claim system have really (and I mean really) been magnified by the game content we've got over the past year. In particular it's the fact that there's every type of player in Abyss from innocent care bear types to the cut-throat "stop having fun" people.

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It was meant to be ironic. But saying that claim system mechanics were not relevant before Abyssea is plain ignorant. Claim system mechanics were, if anything, significantly more relevant in the days of World-Spawn HNMs than they are and will ever be in Abyssea.

It is not the game's fault that perma-casuals who have never done anything more "hardcore endgame" than Nyzul Isle have never been exposed to competitive play in FFXI. The fact, and I mean absolute fact, remains that Abyssea has made the game significantly less hyper-competitive than it has ever been.

If the FFXI Claim system survived 9 years of RotZ Kings, I promise you it is not suddenly glitching out in Abyssea. The fault is player error, period.

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It was meant to be ironic. But saying that claim system mechanics were not relevant before Abyssea is plain ignorant. Claim system mechanics were, if anything, significantly more relevant in the days of World-Spawn HNMs than they are and will ever be in Abyssea.

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You're missing my point, it's become more of an issue because players of all types have been jammed together in the same content. No it wasn't as much of an issue before because HNM shells knew how to deal with it and it wasn't exploited on a "knowledgeable player vs. not so knowledgeable player" basis.

I'm not saying it's glitching, you're getting the wrong idea.

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It is not the game's fault that perma-casuals who have never done anything more "hardcore endgame" than Nyzul Isle have never been exposed to competitive play in FFXI. The fact, and I mean absolute fact, remains that Abyssea has made the game significantly less hyper-competitive than it has ever been.

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I fail to see how that's the case. Competing for claim (for example) on HNM was something that only a handful of the playerbase ever did. Having another group wait for you to finish with the potential there for them to grab your mob if you screw up is something that a large amount of people are only being exposed to for the first time.

Having them know about the claim system is one thing, and I applaud efforts to educate people. Having said that it seems pretty shortsighted to ignore the fact that the details of the claim system are being exposed to many more, and a far broader range of players than they ever have been. Expecting people to be fully educated on the nuances of it is a bit rich really. I'm not sure what i'm saying, maybe that a "suck less" attitude is pretty damn far from helping the problem. Though i'm sure some sections of the playerbase that push that garbage line would gladly keep others in the dark to their own advantage.

I'm sure we'd be perfectly happy if the entire playerbase understood how the claim system worked, and how Haste worked, and how a variety of other things worked if only because it would mean that pickup groups would be less likely to suck and 45 minute 18-man Orthrus zombies would be less likely to happen in the middle of Ukon farming.

That aside, we can both agree that the range of players who are now playing Endgame content has increased. Personally, I love the fact that content is more openly accessible to the playerbase. However, I feel that it can only hold up as an excuse for willful player ignorance for so long.

FFXI resources are nowhere near difficult to come by. The Wiki has more than enough general information about these systems for the people who bother to take a few minutes and read them. Myself and others have been repeatedly attempting to educate the populace whenever a particular issue is brought up. BG's Random Question Thread still exists, and is heavily moderated to prevent trolling of people seeking real information (Eg: People aren't going to crap on you unless you crap on them first, anyone asking a polite question will get polite answers. Though, asking questions that require a lot of typing and work to answer without doing even basic research on one's own is rarely appreciated).

The fact of the matter is, many FFXI players simply refuse to educate themselves and instead opt to be willfully ignorant of how the game works. Unfortunately, a side effect of making content more accessible is that these people are thrown into the ring with people who do understand the basics of FFXI gameplay. Are they more likely to screw up and be taken advantage of? Most definitely. But that's not anyone else's fault, most especially not the fault of the game itself.

I don't expect everyone to know how pDif, dDex, WSC, fStr, and the like work and interact with one another. But I do expect them to know that Haste and X-hits are important. If the claim system were remotely complex, I would be more forgiving of not understanding that too. Fortunately, the claim system is not remotely near complex. It is incredibly simple.

The last person to act on a mob has claim, period. If that person disengages the mob, the mob goes white, period. If you're not on the hate list when a mob is in active combat (eg, not passive/idle), you require two consecutive actions to take claim, period. Those 3 simple rules are all anyone ever needs know about the claim system.

I absolutely cannot advocate changing the rules of the game just because some people choose not to learn the basics of gameplay.

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Fortunately, the claim system is not remotely near complex. It is incredibly simple.

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Yet it keeps pissing people off and we're having the same thread pop up over and over again.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

Yet it keeps pissing people off and we're having the same thread pop up over and over again.

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Because they don't know how it works and refuse to take 5 minutes to educate themselves.

Not my fault. Not the "vulture"'s fault. Certainly not the game's fault.

Their fault.

Civility? On the internet?

Surely you jest.

:( (would be nice though)

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I'm sure we'd be perfectly happy if the entire playerbase understood how the claim system worked, and how Haste worked, and how a variety of other things worked if only because it would mean that pickup groups would be less likely to suck and 45 minute 18-man Orthrus zombies would be less likely to happen in the middle of Ukon farming.

That aside, we can both agree that the range of players who are now playing Endgame content has increased. Personally, I love the fact that content is more openly accessible to the playerbase. However, I feel that it can only hold up as an excuse for willful player ignorance for so long.

FFXI resources are nowhere near difficult to come by. The Wiki has more than enough general information about these systems for the people who bother to take a few minutes and read them. Myself and others have been repeatedly attempting to educate the populace whenever a particular issue is brought up. BG's Random Question Thread still exists, and is heavily moderated to prevent trolling of people seeking real information (Eg: People aren't going to crap on you unless you crap on them first, anyone asking a polite question will get polite answers. Though, asking questions that require a lot of typing and work to answer without doing even basic research on one's own is rarely appreciated).

The fact of the matter is, many FFXI players simply refuse to educate themselves and instead opt to be willfully ignorant of how the game works. Unfortunately, a side effect of making content more accessible is that these people are thrown into the ring with people who do understand the basics of FFXI gameplay. Are they more likely to screw up and be taken advantage of? Most definitely. But that's not anyone else's fault, most especially not the fault of the game itself.

I don't expect everyone to know how pDif, dDex, WSC, fStr, and the like work and interact with one another. But I do expect them to know that Haste and X-hits are important. If the claim system were remotely complex, I would be more forgiving of not understanding that too. Fortunately, the claim system is not remotely near complex. It is incredibly simple.

The last person to act on a mob has claim, period. If that person disengages the mob, the mob goes white, period. If you're not on the hate list when a mob is in active combat (eg, not passive/idle), you require two consecutive actions to take claim, period. Those 3 simple rules are all anyone ever needs know about the claim system.

I absolutely cannot advocate changing the rules of the game just because some people choose not to learn the basics of gameplay.

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This... a million times this...

I think the problem is, that back in the good old king days... people decided to tell kings to eff off since it was... well... it was kings... lol... now with Abyssea, people have that king-ish content more available, more people are doing it... and complaining about the system.

When you finish learning the system, only then can you complain...

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

It was meant to be ironic. But saying that claim system mechanics were not relevant before Abyssea is plain ignorant. Claim system mechanics were, if anything, significantly more relevant in the days of World-Spawn HNMs than they are and will ever be in Abyssea.

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Not true. Before Abyssea the consensus was that "the HNMLS were going to monopolize the NM, whoops, it's been up for .047 seconds, ___JacktardsLS got claim, see ya, we'll move to Orcish Overlord since these guys are stuck here, wait, we're not an HNMLS, we're not allowed to fight an HNM, let's just move to campaign."

Abyssea moved those HNMLS-types into direct competition with regular players in a general zone. Unfortunately, regular players refuse to relinquish all end-game type content to the exclusive use of those types, nor to become their mindless DD drones/stooges, thus we have conflict. If regular players would simply farm, pop and die within seconds to voluntarily surrender __NM to ___JacktardsLS as they are required to do according to the ___JacktardsLS Code of Conduct we wouldn't even be discussing this issue.

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Because they don't know how it works and refuse to take 5 minutes to educate themselves.

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How are people supposed to know what to research before they are effected by it? They don't know how it works sure, but stating that people have refused to educate themselves on something that's never been an issue for them before is a bit silly.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

How are people supposed to know what to research before they are effected by it? They don't know how it works sure, but stating that people have refused to educate themselves on something that's never been an issue for them before is a bit silly.

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Actually its not silly at all.

Its called being prepared. People do it all the time.

I know before any fight, I always look up a good strategy, what to expect, where/when to kite if neccessary, what TP moves to look out for, What Debuffs it can inflict, etc.

Basic things about the game. I would say "Knowing how to keep a mob red" would be "Basic education of the game". Especially if they're so afraid of "Vultures", you think they would research a way to keep mobs red. It just seems like a basic preventative measure.

There is a line to be drawn, but learning the basics of keeping your mob from going unclaimed seems like something people would want to do, especially with all the hate/knowledge of "Vultures" camping ???'s etc.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Because they don't know how it works and refuse to take 5 minutes to educate themselves.

Not my fault. Not the "vulture"'s fault. Certainly not the game's fault.

Their fault.

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Except....

People know EXACTLY how it works, and that's why we're complaining. In some cases the current claim system is working contrary to the spirit of the game. Knowing that a DC'ing tank that's auto-attacking a mob and will unclaim the mob when he fully DC's and trying your hardest to pull hate off THE TANK in 30 seconds when it's been well established just so it doesn't happen are two different things. Just because YOU KNOW how it works doesn't mean you can stop it. And just because IT DOES HAPPEN, doesn't mean it's right.

I stand by my original statement this really only became a problem once SE started saying "Hey it went unclaimed, sucks to be you." Back in my HNM days that wouldn't fly... One could easily site racism because the GMs conveniently only popped up when a JP groups' Fafhogg was "stolen", but I'll lean on the side of coincidence... This IS a new thing, and it's been amplified by population density on both sides of the proverbial fence. There's more HNMs being fought and there's more people stealing pops since they believe SE is giving the "The Right" to take anything that goes unclaimed.

Had SE done anything in the past, fewer people would slide their moral flexibilities to the side of theft.

Which is ironic for SE considering you need to confirm 62,000 times to do anything in this game, and yet a monster can go unclaimed without any effort on the part of the group? Really?

It takes a minute to dc, not 30 seconds. If you cannot pull hate off someone in a minute, you deserve to lose it.

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Originally Posted by rog

It takes a minute to dc, not 30 seconds. If you cannot pull hate off someone in a minute, you deserve to lose it.

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If you want to get nit-picky then I'll say, there's times where you just can't move the mob...

And no, no one deserves to have anything stolen from them. No one "deserves" to lose the work they put into something when the other 17 people are in complete control.

Hell, if you instated a process as suggested, there's no down side to it. Leaving it the way it is only leaves the door open for theft. Given the two options, which is more fair to the entire gaming populace? One that allows people to steal form one another? Or one that opens up content for people of all skill levels without the fear of theft and having their work go to waist because someone has an oversized sense of self-entitlement?

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Originally Posted by blowfin

How are people supposed to know what to research before they are effected by it? They don't know how it works sure, but stating that people have refused to educate themselves on something that's never been an issue for them before is a bit silly.

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That only holds true for the first time someone has run into trouble with the claim system. If they lost a claim and did not know why, and then didn't bother to try and learn why that happened, they cannot blame the game if they lose claim a second or third time.

All it comes down to is the simple fact that people have absolutely no basis upon which to complain about a game system when they have not even attempted to learn how said game system even works.

I am not going around slamming people who lose their claims on NMs and calling them ignorant. I am replying to a mass of people who are posting on these forums, bashing the current state of the claim system and demanding change to it, without even trying to understand it first. There is absolutely no excuse for that.

Most of these people would have been much better off simply saying "This happened. Why did I lose claim? Do DoTs not hold claim? I thought my WAR voked the mob, does that not work either?" instead of creating page-long whine-posts, GM threats, blaming "Abyssea" for "Changing how claims work", and accusing everyone but them of Hacking and Botting.

Except people know how the claim system works and that's why they want it changed....

Your logic is akin to saying "If people knew how bullets worked, they wouldn't get shot".

I'm curious about something I've seen stated several times in these mob going white threads. Has the claim system been the same since the game started? I could have sworn it worked differently up until 2008 or so... back when we used to steal claim on NMs by curing a player in the other ally and then having someone do something to gain a ton of hate like invincible. You also used to be able to reclaim a monster you had hate on much the same way... it happened at countless khims and maybe an ixion or two. I know they changed monster hate in 07 or so... I guess around the time they made it so that mobs would no longer wait at the zone to decimate whoever entered the zone next (and the whole anti-MPK thing).

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Originally Posted by Frost

If you want to get nit-picky then I'll say, there's times where you just can't move the mob...

And no, no one deserves to have anything stolen from them. No one "deserves" to lose the work they put into something when the other 17 people are in complete control.

Hell, if you instated a process as suggested, there's no down side to it. Leaving it the way it is only leaves the door open for theft. Given the two options, which is more fair to the entire gaming populace? One that allows people to steal form one another? Or one that opens up content for people of all skill levels without the fear of theft and having their work go to waist because someone has an oversized sense of self-entitlement?

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You continually use the word steal. GMs will rectify situations where NMs are stolen, period. The problem is, we are not talking about stealing.

Ex1:
Group A is fighting Nidhogg.
Group B's Paladin casts Cure 1 on Group A's Paladin.
Group B's Paladin proceeds to 2hr/Sentinel/spam his Enmity up to cap.
Nidhogg moves out of range of Group A's Paladin, and goes White due to Disengage.
Group B's Paladin casts Flash and claims Nidhogg because he was on the hate list.

Nidhogg was stolen.

Ex2:
Group A is fighting Nidhogg.
Group B waits patiently nearby, but does not act on any member of Group A.
Group A's Paladin dies with sole claim, there are no other melees hitting Nidhogg and no mage casting on it.
Nidhogg goes White.
Group B's Paladin casts Flash then uses Shield Bash before anyone in Group A acts.

Nidhogg was not stolen.

This is the distinction that GMs made over the years, and has nothing to do with race. As far as they are concerned, unless there was foul play involved, any transfer of claim can be considered legitimate.

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Originally Posted by Frost

Except people know how the claim system works and that's why they want it changed....

Your logic is akin to saying "If people knew how bullets worked, they wouldn't get shot".

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You know how the claim system works, and you want it changed. Singular, not plural. Yet the only half-legitimate example you have been able to provide is the case of a "Tank" class character disconnecting with hate. As rog pointed out, it's honestly nowhere near difficult to pull hate off a tank in 30-60 seconds =/ especially when said tank is going to be auto-attacking without taking any actions, offensive or defensive, and will likely be bleeding CE unless they're a counterstanced Mnk or an Ochain PLD.

I will absolutely stand by my assertion that it is not difficult at all for a group that understands the claim system to keep claim on a monster.

So a group of 18 people farm up:

A ridiculous amount of trash mobs to get pop items for:

An NM Limule
An NM Clionid
An NM Mandragora
An NM Corpselight
An NM Courel
An NM Eft

As well as taking the pop items those drop and farming MORE trash mobs to pop:

An NM Hectaeyes
An NM Scorpion
An NM Bat
An NM Cockatrice
An NM Manticore

As well as:

An NM Turtle
An NM Gnat
An NM Sandworm

Then pop:

An HNM Mandragora
An HNM Sandworm

To eventually pop:

An HNM turtle.

And when it invincibles and people run/kite in opposite direction in order to not get nuked while it's in that mode and one player happens to disengage after being the last person to touch it and it goes unclaimed. No one's dead, the group is in complete control, and you're only logic for taking the mob from said group is "Hey it went unclaimed"?

Really dude?

17 NMs and countless trash mobs farmed by a whole alliance in the spirit of good fun and teamwork Means nothign to you because "Hey it went unclaimed"

And you think this is "as designed"?

C'mon man, you're usually pretty sharp. How can you not see this goes against every thing the game's designed to provide? It's highly doubtful this is what Square wants for it's players... And defending theft or saying it's not theft is quite the logical leap...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frost

And when it invincibles and people run/kite in opposite direction in order to not get nuked while it's in that mode and one player happens to disengage after being the last person to touch it and it goes unclaimed. No one's dead, the group is in complete control, and you're only logic for taking the mob from said group is "Hey it went unclaimed"?

Really dude?

17 NMs and countless trash mobs farmed by a whole alliance in the spirit of good fun and teamwork Means nothign to you because "Hey it went unclaimed"

And you think this is "as designed"?

C'mon man, you're usually pretty sharp. How can you not see this goes against every thing the game's designed to provide? It's highly doubtful this is what Square wants for it's players... And defending theft or saying it's not theft is quite the logical leap...

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Unfortunately, yes. If your group is so afraid of an NM that they can't for 1 second have someone Dia it, Gravity it, or something on it to keep it from going unclaimed, by the games own rules, if it goes white, its free game.

I'm not saying I would take the mob, If the player is in control I morally allow them to continue fighting. But it is absolutely not against the ToS. Its not "Stealing". Its 100% legal.

Thats all he is arguing if i'm reading his posts right. He's only trying to explain to people the difference between stealing and Claiming a fair mob.

If your group is so unorganize/afraid of an NM that not one person out of 18 people stop for 1 second and claim the mob to keep it from going unclaimed, if it goes white, its fair game to any group in range.

Fair? Subjective
Legal by games rules? Yes.
Would i take it? no. I would not take anything until the group is fully wiped. even then, if i dont need the mob i leave it alone.

Example: Yesterday ran by some really really gimp group trying to kill Carabosse. it was a WHM and a WAR i think, they wiped, It went unclaimed and idle, it walked right past me, and i didn't touch it cause it would have been an absolute waste of my time to claim it.

The WHM then Reraise and proceeded to zombie it.



Also:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frost

Except people know how the claim system works and that's why they want it changed....

Your logic is akin to saying "If people knew how bullets worked, they wouldn't get shot".

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Claim =/= Deadly weapon. You appear to be trying to tell us that Learning how to keep claim on a monster wont help us keep claim on a monster, this is incorrect. If you learn about a bullet, it would be more akin to learning how to prevent death from being shot.

Like, a Bullet proof Vest, Proper medical treatment, Bullet-proof Glassing, etc.

Its a bad analogy, but i did my best with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frost

So a group of 18 people farm up:

A ridiculous amount of trash mobs to get pop items for:

An NM Limule
An NM Clionid
An NM Mandragora
An NM Corpselight
An NM Courel
An NM Eft

As well as taking the pop items those drop and farming MORE trash mobs to pop:

An NM Hectaeyes
An NM Scorpion
An NM Bat
An NM Cockatrice
An NM Manticore

As well as:

An NM Turtle
An NM Gnat
An NM Sandworm

Then pop:

An HNM Mandragora
An HNM Sandworm

To eventually pop:

An HNM turtle.

And when it invincibles and people run/kite in opposite direction in order to not get nuked while it's in that mode and one player happens to disengage after being the last person to touch it and it goes unclaimed. No one's dead, the group is in complete control, and you're only logic for taking the mob from said group is "Hey it went unclaimed"?

Really dude?

17 NMs and countless trash mobs farmed by a whole alliance in the spirit of good fun and teamwork Means nothign to you because "Hey it went unclaimed"

And you think this is "as designed"?

C'mon man, you're usually pretty sharp. How can you not see this goes against every thing the game's designed to provide? It's highly doubtful this is what Square wants for it's players... And defending theft or saying it's not theft is quite the logical leap...

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I never said anything about whether or not I would take someone's mob, or what someone's effort to create a pop set is worth (Lacovie is a bad example, it takes maybe 15-30 minutes depending on your luck to make a lacovie set via Gold Box since it's only 2 KI).

However, if everyone scatters and disengages to avoid nukes when they were engaged in the first place, yes, they will lose claim. People (should) know that. That is why, hopefully, they would not be attempting to use such a strategy.

For the record, it is perfectly possible to kite a mob that you have sole claim over while being greater than 30' away. You simply have to take an action against the mob after you have disengaged to reassert your "Non-Engaged" claim. Does Kirin go unclaimed when a kiter out-ranges a Stonega IV? Nope. Would Kirin go unclaimed if a DD who was the last person to hit Kirin turned and disengaged? Yup.

Yes, your intentionally extravagant scenario would result in an unfortunate loss for the party. However, it should not come as any surprise to them that it happened. Sometimes you have to make concessions in strategy in order to cement your claim on a monster. The point that I am leaping around is that all of the melee should not have scattered to the wind in the first place, as they would know that it could cause a claim loss.

GMs wont do anything unless someone has had claim on the mob and not done any damage for an hour. Beyond that they dont care. And abyssea mobs don't rage, except smok and maybe rani, he gets some damage reduction. 10 min depop timer or leave it as it is. 10 min is more then enough to proc and kill anything. If it isn't enough for your group, get better.

ppl should kno how keep calm of a Nm this stuff would not happen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kya

ppl should kno how keep calm of a Nm this stuff would not happen.

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I usually keep NMs calm by giving them chamomile tea. How do you do it?

I've never understood what the act of drawing or putting your weapon away has to do with claim at all? If you can claim without weapons drawn with spells and JA, why does putting your weapon away cause a loss of claim at all? If this particular and completely moronic element of the claim system was completely removed from the equation, problem solved for all scenarios.

I agree with 100% with the spirit of this thread. I think the implementation of the proposed fix, however, would cause other problems that would enable infinite zombying, as others have said.

Removing the disengage being tied to claim fixes the problem.

Also, I do not think everyone is "working as intended". If you don't think the claim system is buggy because of engaging/disengaging, then ask yourselves this:

Why can you ranged attack without weapons drawn, but not ranged WS? Doesn't that imply a much larger coding issue with the entire engage system?