hate cap raise.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Yes.

Other DD jobs and "Non-Tank" Jobs should not be able to Tank Safely. That's the reason "Tanks" exist, otherwise they're just useless classes.

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It's not really as simple as that. If they killed off every other jobs defensive capabilities, we're back to 2005, PLD is the only tank, and DDs have to hold back on their damage, resulting in slower kills, and effectively killing lowman. I'm pretty sure the community would have a pretty negative reaction to that, which rules out that option.
The only two real options to make PLD useful again, is to give them higher offensive abilities, or overhaul the entire enmity system.

I've posted this in a PLD thread:
I think enmity gained by damage should be modified by target max HP. After all, enmity loss already works that way.

Doing a 3k WS shouldn't bother mobs with 100k HP as much as mobs with 5 or 10k.
And if DD generate less enmity, real tanks will surely reappear, as healers will still generate the same enmity

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Originally Posted by Himrik

I've posted this in a PLD thread:
I think enmity gained by damage should be modified by target max HP. After all, enmity loss already works that way.

Doing a 3k WS shouldn't bother mobs with 100k HP as much as mobs with 5 or 10k.
And if DD generate less enmity, real tanks will surely reappear, as healers will still generate the same enmity

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No clue if that would work, but it does sound like a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Darka

It's not really as simple as that. If they killed off every other jobs defensive capabilities, we're back to 2005, PLD is the only tank, and DDs have to hold back on their damage, resulting in slower kills, and effectively killing lowman. I'm pretty sure the community would have a pretty negative reaction to that, which rules out that option.
The only two real options to make PLD useful again, is to give them higher offensive abilities, or overhaul the entire enmity system.

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"Tank" should not be a synonym with "DD". If this were to happen, PLD would be crazily overpowered. And if the "Tank jobs" got amazing DD capability AND survivability, you would see the other DD being left out of every event, and everyone would just be playing the Tank jobs, because they survive longer and don't have to hold back DD, they would not have to worry about dying from pulling hate.

(The FFXI community has a habit of making certain jobs/classes "bandwagon" and popular, this in turn weeds out other jobs as "sucky" which get left out and over shadowed. This is why the Dev team should never have allowed the community to design and mold the jobs to their playstyle!)

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Originally Posted by GlobalVariable

Multiple jobs should be able to tank effectively, but not as well and not while still being primarily DD at the same time. Being capable of doing it requires being able to survive though ones definition of "safely" may very. I remember the days when nobody would do anything without one specific job tanking and I dislike that scenario almost as much as my pld not being useful.

Multiple tanks = good.
Making the tank job the only tank in town = bad.
"The tank job" can't tank the latest content = super bad.
Please remember this dev team. :x

No matter what changes come there always seems to be at least 1 job left unwanted, and after a few updates all we've done is changed which is shunned. Maybe that will never stop...Ugh.

Going to be real interesting seeing how they intend to balance things without changing enmity or using damage nerfs or giving every DD an enmity douse like ability.

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Yes, this is correct.

PLD should NOT be the only tank. And and as said above "Tank" should not be a synonym with "DD".

If FFXI has 20 jobs, then:

3 jobs should fit the role of "Tank". (These jobs while tanking, should NOT do crazy amounts of DD)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Main Heals"
3 jobs should fit the role of "Support Jobs" (brd, cor and dnc, so this is already covered)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Nuker" (Casting DD)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Ranged Attacker"
and the rest of the jobs should be either "Hybrid" or straight out "Melee DD". (But these jobs should not excel at everything they're capable of doing. EX: MNK is given an ability to "Tank" well, this ability should then therefore cut-off MNK's DD output significantly enough. Not doing this creates imbalance in game design!)


So yea... I stopped posting long things like this awhile ago, don't know why I bothered now... but anyways. These forums really make me /sigh...

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Originally Posted by Akujima

"Tank" should not be a synonym with "DD". If this were to happen, PLD would be crazily overpowered. And if the "Tank jobs" got amazing DD capability AND survivability, you would see the other DD being left out of every event, and everyone would just be playing the Tank jobs, because they survive longer and don't have to hold back DD, they would not have to worry about dying from pulling hate.

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Semantics, I don't care to argue with you about aesthetic reasons why DDs shouldn't tank. DDs tank, damage is the best form of enmity, don't blame me, blame whoever designed the enmity system and didn't use a crystal ball to see the future and discover the higher level cap and atma introduction.
That and "increasing their offensive abilities" does not =/= make them stronger than all other jobs.

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This is why the Dev team should never have allowed the community to design and mold the jobs to their playstyle!)

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Yes they should have been dictators and ban any player trying to do anything original with their job, or respond with an immediate nerf. /sarcasm

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PLD should NOT be the only tank. And and as said above "Tank" should not be a synonym with "DD".

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Again, semantics, the mechanics dictate that x works better than y, so use x. I send you back to read my "overhaul of the enmity system" comment again.

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If FFXI has 20 jobs, then:

3 jobs should fit the role of "Tank". (These jobs while tanking, should NOT do crazy amounts of DD)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Main Heals"
3 jobs should fit the role of "Support Jobs" (brd, cor and dnc, so this is already covered)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Nuker" (Casting DD)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Ranged Attacker"
and the rest of the jobs should be either "Hybrid" or straight out "Melee DD". (But these jobs should not excel at everything they're capable of doing. EX: MNK is given an ability to "Tank" well, this ability should then therefore cut-off MNK's DD output significantly enough. Not doing this creates imbalance in game design!)

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Pigeon-holing, you think jobs should only be capable of strict things? BLMs nuke, and that is all? BRDs sing and that is all? THF trick attacks and nothing else? What a fun game, I don't think you understand the "creates imbalance in game design" notion yourself. Enforce things like this and kiss lowman content goodbye, we're back to 2005 with PLD and a bunch of required supportive jobs to maintain said PLD. Again, issues with tanking are related to the 10 year old design of the enmity system.

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These forums really make me /sigh...

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Sweet we agree.

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Originally Posted by Vold

I remember when it was a team effort to keep hate on Paladins because they just weren't built to deal damage, but to take damage. These days people just want SE to do the work for them so they don't have to make any effort. Just make PLD stronger. Yeah, that's the trick. And they keep doing that, making jobs stronger. And it unbalances other aspects. And it keeps repeating itself. All because people want to skip out on playing the game with their minds and just TP spam shit. Good job.

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Agreed, I remember it was a requirement for most if not all DD's to have /THF leveled to SATA onto whoever was tanking. However, this was before people figured out just how fast they could zerg stuff with X-hit weapons, haste, march setups and before SAM, /SAM, and 2h-weapons got a big boost.

The additional damage boost people used to get off of SC's and MB used to help suppliment the damage difference between the zerg tactics, but unfortunately SATA melees, SC, and MBs have become lost arts due to SE catering new gear and job adjustments to the zerg frenzy.

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Originally Posted by Darka

Pigeon-holing, you think jobs should only be capable of strict things? BLMs nuke, and that is all? BRDs sing and that is all? THF trick attacks and nothing else? What a fun game, I don't think you understand the "creates imbalance in game design" notion yourself. Enforce things like this and kiss lowman content goodbye, we're back to 2005 with PLD and a bunch of required supportive jobs to maintain said PLD. Again, issues with tanking are related to the 10 year old design of the enmity system.

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Jobs are and will always be pigeon-holed by people in this game. I cannot tell you how many times people would bitch if you even tried to step out of their "pesudo-perfect" setup, and the few times you might get away with it you had to pray something did not go wrong or it ALL came down to your fault reguardless of how incompetit other players may be.

There's a difference between being forced to perform only one action and doing something which isn't optimal. Having a job being only able to do one role is pigeon-holing and bad for the game. Except for some melee DD jobs (ref: Drg, even then, they can shed hate with jumps or depending on sub, help with healing) most jobs in the game can perform at least 2 roles to varying degress of effectiveness.

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I remember when it was a team effort to keep hate on Paladins because they just weren't built to deal damage, but to take damage. These days people just want SE to do the work for them so they don't have to make any effort. Just make PLD stronger. Yeah, that's the trick. And they keep doing that, making jobs stronger. And it unbalances other aspects. And it keeps repeating itself. All because people want to skip out on playing the game with their minds and just TP spam shit. Good job.

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Agreed, I remember it was a requirement for most if not all DD's to have /THF leveled to SATA onto whoever was tanking.

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That has been dead long before the current situation. Even well before the popularity of /sam and the 2h update. Go onto any community site forum and try to advocate war/thf...Good luck.

And there are plenty of times hate production from damage will be so high that TA won't mean a thing anyway. As it is melee's stand around doing nothing long enough thanks to the proc system. Saying it is because we don't hold back or don't "work" for hate control is simply nonsense.

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Originally Posted by GlobalVariable

That has been dead long before the current situation. Even well before the popularity of /sam and the 2h update. Go onto any community site forum and try to advocate war/thf...Good luck.

And there are plenty of times hate production from damage will be so high that TA won't mean a thing anyway. As it is melee's stand around doing nothing long enough thanks to the proc system. Saying it is because we don't hold back or don't "work" for hate control is simply nonsense.

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I'm by no means advocating usage of /THF on DD's in this day and era, it was merely stating so though it might still have it's uses in certain situations. It's really all in how the game was originally designed, intended, and adjusted, back in 2004/05 a balanced group that worked with each other played a major part in success in experience and event settings. You of course ran into bandwagon jobs back then with Arrow/Mana burn parties, but a balanced party had a bigger standing then than it does now.

SE has strayed away from that trying to make the game more suitable for the casual player, and I'm fine with the direction they've taken in some areas and not so much in others. I know not everyone is going to be happy with everything and neither will I, but it would be nice to have a more teamwork oriented environment that played more to the strengths and weakness of each other like back then, instead of singling out half the jobs available for being seen as useless because of one or two design flaws even though they're still entirely viable.

The problem isn't necesarily enmity as it is now, but rather the fact that we don't need PLD or general tanks to kill things.

Voidwatch gave us a glimpse into how fights would be if every other MNK couldn't tank the hardest boss the game currently has to offer, and I assume it will continue to be that way.

Simply put: If there was an opponent that REQUIRED a job with the survivability of a PLD to tank, the playerbase would find a way to defeat it.

(Although with perfect defense and so many Ukonvasara WARs around there's no way in hell we'll be needing true tanks anytime soon)

P.S.@Swords: You probably get this a lot, but Bog Body and Moogles take extremely high damage (Over *2.0).

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

P.S.@Swords: You probably get this a lot, but Bog Body and Moogles take extremely high damage (Over *2.0).

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Actually your the first to say anything, and I'm well aware of their weaksauce defense. I've got other SS of damage on other mobs that are slightly lower, but looking at it I wonder why I didn't put them in as well. XD

Bog bodys have the def of a wet paper bag and the HP of HNM

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

Bog bodys have the def of a wet paper bag and the HP of HNM

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They actually have normal defense, just Damage Taken +100%. I know, just a technicality, but still.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

3 jobs should fit the role of "Tank". (These jobs while tanking, should NOT do crazy amounts of DD)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Main Heals"
3 jobs should fit the role of "Support Jobs" (brd, cor and dnc, so this is already covered)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Nuker" (Casting DD)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Ranged Attacker"
and the rest of the jobs should be either "Hybrid" or straight out "Melee DD". (But these jobs should not excel at everything they're capable of doing. EX: MNK is given an ability to "Tank" well, this ability should then therefore cut-off MNK's DD output significantly enough. Not doing this creates imbalance in game design!)

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You go on about players should not be able to mould jobs to their playstyle. Yet you quote job "descriptions" (such as Tank, Nuker, DD etc) which are "player moulded titles" for each job mentioned.

A WHM can tank with a shield and a club, when solo'ing. A PLD can sit back with a staff and cure people. Why the hell wouldn't you allow this?

This goes back to the whole mentality of "this job was designed by the dev team do play this role and this role only, and can only ever be played like this otherwise it's useless." Which I will be honest - is the mentality that I hate about this game.

Sure a RDM is a crappy melee job, yet can hold a sword and a shield and still melee. I wouldn't personally melee on RDM for example - but a lot of people's playstyle includes this (and the game allows it so why not?).

There is no right or wrong way to play a job. I have seen WHM's trump a few "DD's" in damage output with Hexa. Stop hating on people that want to play their job their own way.

Ps. RDM sucks at melee. You shouldn't do it. Ninja is a tank and can't nuke / kite kill because it sucks at nukes...

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Originally Posted by Darka

It's not really as simple as that. If they killed off every other jobs defensive capabilities, we're back to 2005, PLD is the only tank, and DDs have to hold back on their damage, resulting in slower kills, and effectively killing lowman. I'm pretty sure the community would have a pretty negative reaction to that, which rules out that option.
The only two real options to make PLD useful again, is to give them higher offensive abilities, or overhaul the entire enmity system.

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If people would play rng then they'd understand that the game absolutely sucks if you HAVE to sit in town and wait for 1 class to pop up. If this is what the game is about then no one would play it so i have to agree here.

Then there's the ego issue...

In my personal opinion the slow killing methods for battles that are PLD needed is the best way, you cant really argue the playerbase would be angry with this due to the fact pre abyssea thats how it was done on many HNM, unless you had a LS that could throw bodies at things constantly no matter who died til it died. Most effective way to keep a tank on the mob, use the traditional SMN pet kills, and keep the DDs /thf.

To sum this all up to the OP, no one wants to see you SA Mercy stroke things to death stealing hate, the hate cap doesnt need balance, your play style does, control yourself. THF isnt a DD outside abyssea, and if youre relating this to inside abyssea, most every thf takes hate with RR on. You do not play in a world where you can SA things to death and not get hate.

The hate cap itself is stupid, and PLD does need work on it to make it viable outside abyssea. But as it has been done before pre abyssea and still doable now, outside abyssea use your head, there are ways to keep mobs on tanks, and there is a job change function and tons of jobs, not everything has to be zerged in this game. You can lowman kill just as fast as a sloppy looking poorly set up zerg and look more clean and pro. Use your brains and you can overcome any obstacle.

To fix this we just need to leave abyssea lol. Those atmas are overpowered to the point where there's a guy in AF in teh dunes tanking for a party if you want a good look at how we treat IT mobs in there. Maybe we could use a mob or two outside of abyssea that has like 600 stones, 9 atmas, and 8 furtherance so we know how it feels :3

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Originally Posted by Fyreus

To fix this we just need to leave abyssea lol.

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Unfortunately it's just marginally better outside. The cap is too low and the enmity system not very well suited for this game at this level and time.

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Originally Posted by Winrie

In my personal opinion the slow killing methods for battles that are PLD needed is the best way, you cant really argue the playerbase would be angry with this due to the fact pre abyssea thats how it was done on many HNM, unless you had a LS that could throw bodies at things constantly no matter who died til it died. Most effective way to keep a tank on the mob, use the traditional SMN pet kills, and keep the DDs /thf.

To sum this all up to the OP, no one wants to see you SA Mercy stroke things to death stealing hate, the hate cap doesnt need balance, your play style does, control yourself. THF isnt a DD outside abyssea, and if youre relating this to inside abyssea, most every thf takes hate with RR on. You do not play in a world where you can SA things to death and not get hate.

The hate cap itself is stupid, and PLD does need work on it to make it viable outside abyssea. But as it has been done before pre abyssea and still doable now, outside abyssea use your head, there are ways to keep mobs on tanks, and there is a job change function and tons of jobs, not everything has to be zerged in this game. You can lowman kill just as fast as a sloppy looking poorly set up zerg and look more clean and pro. Use your brains and you can overcome any obstacle.

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i'm talking about outside abyssea. TA + Mercy stroke (~1,8-2,3k dmg) on nin and SA + mercy stroke (~2-2,5k) and then i have hate and even with another TA + mercy stroke i'm still hate holder, seems like hate caps at ~4k dmg (ws dmg +
enmity of sa + enmity of melee rounds) . back in the days sky gods (except kirin) are at 15-20k hp.kill them with 6 DDs its ~24k dmg at all for everyone to cap hate. mob died long before they hit that number.

but nowadays many mobs have 50k+ hp, so they don't die before ppl hit hate cap anymore.

and yeah i know about CE & VE.

but with all the capped haste & DW increases with the last updates enmity just doesn't decreases fast enough.

.Edit: point is, enmity system is still build for the old 75 Content and not for the new content where mobs have much more hp, so it does need a revamp.

FYI Sky gods are closer to 20-22k HP, Kirin is roughly 60k HP. Tiamat approx 180k HP, Jorm 80k HP, Khimaira approx 72k HP. for Comparison, Rani has ~80k HP, Raja ~150k, and Isgebind ~90k.

hmm ^^
however u doing more dmg per hit now, that's faster enmity increase........so it still needs a revamp!