Camlann's Torment

The point of Cal is probably to double Light after Cal> drakesbane light

Also Cal is probably more consistant and accurate than Drakesbane on HNMs. Presently most HNMs are DC to us since they were all 85ish. At 75 you would never think of using Drakesbane on Kirin or a Wyrm unless you were TP burning and had BRD songs and angon/dia3 up. Multi hit ws are just too inaccurate and deal too little damage on mobs that are several levels higher than you. When Abyssea wears off and they release new HNMs that are higher level than us without Atmas to use, you'll find that Cal will far outdamage Drakes. Or rather, Drakes damage will be heavily skewed on these mobs while Cal's damage will retain it's previous damage rating on these mobs. Chances are you'll see Drakes doing 800-1k at most on these harder new NMs while Cal will remain doing 1500-1700

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Originally Posted by Mookie

Yeah Cal's Torment is definitely a situational ws. Triple damage ignoring def varying with tp. I'd only use it if the mob had high def and high evade. Drakesbane will outdamage Cal's torment everytime, especially in Abyssea where you have crit boosters if it lands all 4 hits. There's just no getting around that. Emp weaponskills weren't made to do damage for all jobs, it was to even out the inbalances. It gave multi-crit ws to all jobs that didn't have them. and it gave weird stuff to those that did have them.

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Problem is those great weapon skills come with aftermath. Drakesbane doesnt

The point of using Calmann's is to use it at 300%, to activate the aftermath. Then use multi-hit weapon skills. In this case, Drakesbane. Regardless of -anything-, the ODD Crits will still be insane damage. It's also consistent enough damage to warrant using it.

While in Abyssea it's viewed as a iffy WS to choose to use, outside it's not so bad. From the looks of the recent updates, it kind of points in the direction of: We will continue to increase WS damage output. If so, it's not long before Calmann's or other WS's compete with Drakesbane. Drakes is 1.0 fTP, due to 4 hit becomes considered 4.0 ftp.

Calmann's is 3.*(don't know the accurate decimal) however, once and if Calmann's hit's 4.0ftp, and or higher. Things will change. These weapons are not finalized. They're simply starting to blossom.

The fact that Camlann chains with Drakesbane to make light still means we can SC off it without using Sekka by just the virtue of the immense TP we get from new jumps. You could,infact do a 100% Camlann's followed by Soul/Spirit Jump and get enough TP(assuming no misses), pop meditate and instantly do a Drakesbane to close for light. By the time the light animation ends, you'd already have hit once giving you enough TP for another Camlann's to create a double light.

Summary: Camlann's probably isnt mean to have a higher damage potential than Drakesbane but be more consistant due to being one hit and defense ignoring and to open up more powerful self SC opportunities. It doesn't need to be an Ukko's Fury and outside Abyssea it may even out damage Ukkos Fury since Ukko's Fury's damage is largely based on if it crits or not. Outside Abyssea, without Atmas you wont see it crit as often whereas Camlann will remain consistent throughout. I don't see them increasing Camlann's damage at all because it's more of a utility WS.

It's all balanced. Drakesbane has the highest damage potential of our weapon skills but to compensate, it's damage potential is HIGHLY variable with a huge variance depending on if hits in the WS either hit, crit or miss. Camlann's has a higher accuracy and when it lands it will be generally consistant damage. The damage isn't as high as a full crit Drakesbane, but you'll find outside Abyssea that on new NMs like Voidwatch Drakesbane rarely fullcrits anyway without Atmas making Camlanns look more appealing.

Nah, no one is interested in getting a weak weaponskill, that is hardly situational no matter how someone "tries" to spin it. I still think Camlanns Torment needs a overhaul and I'm sure the "real" dragoon community who are actually interested in playing the job would agree too.

Weak weaponskill. You're been playing in Abysse too long. Outside, on stuff that matters (90+ content) Camlann's is a strong WS. As the cap rises to 99, and they continue to add more difficult endgame monsters, it will continue to be useful.

Remember back to the days of early sky when our main WS of choice would be Wheeling Thrust, whereas our merit/xp WS would be Penta thrust. This is basically the same, our tough, high level NM WS is Camlann's, and our exp/merit/weak stuff WS is Drakesbane.

Basically what Noodles said. Try Drakesbane on some of the new Voidwatch NMs, you'll barely break 1k-1.5k if you're lucky and thats being generous with pDIF/Crits/Buffs/All hits landing etc. Camlann's ignores defense, has a high pDIF and is a single hit meaning it's perfect for mobs that have high def/eva rather than Drakes which is inconsistant since it relies on crits. Remember outside Abyssea, crits on Drakesbane are uncommon compared to the new Empyrean WS which have stupid incredibly high base crit rates. I typically see Camlann's from 'meh' geared DRGs doing 1500-1700 without much effort while a fully buffed Drakesbane with all the bells and whistle do anywhere from 500-2.2k on Voidwatch but that's a huge and inconsistent range. Also not to mention you can self SC light with Camlann's which makes it very useful.

Yes I somewhat see where your coming from, but compaired to many other emp weaponskils Camlann's is lacking a lot for a dd job like drg that weilds a 2h weapon with no viable job ability options from the main job itself to increase dmg except angon. Camlann's in my personal view needs a bit of a boost. Either make it a strong alternative to draks or increase the deffence ignored conciderably and make it a nice specialized ws for drg job against high deffence monsters. As it stands it is basicly just a 1 hit ws with 3.0 ftp other jobs have regular ws with just as much or more ftp and better ws mods than vit lol. Would be nice too if aftermath effect would actually be extended cus as it is I personaly think it doesnt last very long ><

It is weaker than other emps, but comparitevely speaking those other jobs don't have a 2h 4hit crit ws. WAR has Ukko's but Kings Fury/Raging Rush sucks. NIN has Hi, but Blade Jin is awful on HNMs outside abyssea, always has been. THF has Rudra Storm but besides Mercy Stroke, their only other good ws are lolsharkbite and Mandalic Stab. MNK has VS but Asuran Fists/Acetic Fury is lol on HNMs, expect like 600-800 from those. What's left? CDC is awesome but you're comparing it to other sword WS, Vorpal Blade/Atonement? lol. Camlann's sucks compared to other Empyrean but no other jobs that have good Empyrean WS have as strong of a WS as Drakesbane like DRG does. I doubt SE wants to give us 2 super strong WS. The only other job in a similar boat I guess would be PUP as Stringing Pummel is more or less the same as VS.

Still theirs comes with aftermath. Drakes doesnt. But at least outside abyssea it can serve as a better ws for us to get aftermath with. Hopefully more content will lead us back out of abyssea.

Drakesbane isn't super awesome on HNM either. It's a great WS for average and weaker stuff, but so is Raging Rush and such. On hard, high-def HNM Camlann's should be more consistant good damage than Ukko's.

Stop saying Camlann's is bad. It's not as useful at the moment because there's hardly any difficult stuff around, pretty much just new dynamis and voidwatch, but that doesn't make it bad. It makes it situational.

I'm not saying it's bad I'm still working on my rhongo. Based on what you've seen I it necessary to change it to maybe -20%, -40%, -60%. Just to make it a lil stronger? Pple saying it needs to start at ignoring 50% seem desperate for a super ws.

still happy with camlaan's?
just asking based on newer content that is out.. is it the best ws on the higher tier VWNM's and in legion? i know legion sucks now, but still someone has to have done it on drg.
if someone who has it can legitimately recommend getting it I may. soon as i finish up relic.

You don't even need the WS to see it's topped by Stardiver.

3.0 ftp, 60% vit ignores 15% defense

vs

3.8~4.2ftp (depending on day) 100% str, raises everyones crit hit rate by 5%

-_- gotta hate SE sometimes.. both of our uber weapon specific ws's suck.

Issue with CT is that ignores defense is just another way of saying attack boost. So on targets with higher defense while your not super buffed then there is an argument for CT. The moment you use stalwarts / bard songs / COR rolls then chunk Agnon and Dia, that ignores defense becomes meaningless and it's just a plain one hit 3.0fTP 60% VIT WS.

Vs Stardiver, 4 hits 0.75 fTP per hit that scales to 0.95 or higher (Moonshade / day effects) with a 100% STR WSC. All those COR / BRD / Item buffs and defense down debuffs will greatly raise SD's damage potential far past anything that CT can do. Heck it raise's it past what Shoha can do for a PLM SAMs. It becomes one of the better zerging WS's.

CT would have a strong place if the ignore defense was worthwhile. 15% isnt much when you look at other WS's. Shoha adds somewhere between 35%~45% attack, old school Gekko was 100% attack. I mean even Wheeling Thrust was ignore 50% def.

I'm working on my rhongomiont as well.... hate you chloris, but I started the trek for it because of the aftermath, not CT

Gotta use CT for the aftermath right?

At least Camlann makes light with Drakesbane which is kind of neat, I guess.

yeah this would be my main purpose for the weapon. especially in abyssea with vv on spirit linking. doing a double light or 2 seperate sc's within 20 seconds or so is pretty easy

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Originally Posted by Transmit

CT would have a strong place if the ignore defense was worthwhile. 15% isnt much when you look at other WS's. Shoha adds somewhere between 35%~45% attack, old school Gekko was 100% attack. I mean even Wheeling Thrust was ignore 50% def.

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I was trying to be kind to it. SE really dropped the ball on this WS, should of made the ignore def 50~75%. Would of made it useful vs ridiculously high defense targets.

I just today noticed that Torcleaver's fTP is so much higher than Camlann's Torment's... And it scales with TP. :(
I like my Rhongomiant... but I wish its signature weaponskill wasn't so laughable.

It's just annoying how Camlann/Wheeling have "Ignores Defense varies with TP" but many weapon skills that SAM and DRK receive have this as a hidden effect IN ADDITION to "Damage varies with TP". So they can have a weapon skill which scales in damage with higher TP but also has a innate cRatio Attack Bonus. Dragoon should get an 'Ignores Defense" job trait that either ignores 100% Defense and proc's like 5-10% of the time similar to Kick Attacks/Triple Attack/Double Attack and can proc on Weapon Skills; or weaker traits that are always active that ignore 5-10% of Defense; similar to Subtle Blow/Store TP/Fencer etc. Dragoon really lacks in Attack because we don't have Berserk or Last Resort and we can't sub WAR because we lose out on Third Eye/Hasso/Meditate. So while DRKs can sub SAM because they have Last Resort(Which can be meritted to be better than Berserk) and WAR has berserk naturally and benefits from /SAM nicely, DRG is the only 2 handed melee job that has to CHOOSE between high attack and /SAM's benefits while other 2handed jobs get both.

Many DRK/SAM SAM/WAR and WAR/SAM I know talk about how they have like 1200+ attack when fully buffed and as DRG the best I can do as DRG/SAM is like 880ish with Food because I don't have berserk or Last Resort. Give DRG some kind of trait that ignores defense or a JA that boosts Attack significantly but reduces wyvern breath accuracy or something. Maybe even make it like Saber Dance, restricts breaths but gives Attack+25% that diminishes over time to be more balanced(would also let us take TP from wyvern using Spirit Link since breaths would be rrestricted, the wyvern's TP wouldn't be reset when we WS every few seconds.)

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Many DRK/SAM SAM/WAR and WAR/SAM I know talk about how they have like 1200+ attack when fully buffed and as DRG the best I can do as DRG/SAM is like 880ish with Food because I don't have berserk or Last Resort.

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Just wondering, does Spirit Surge add the wyvern's attack to our own, or just base stats? Not a fix by any means, but DRG can do a lot of damage during the 2 hour.

If DRG had some sort of Berserk/LR I think we could come back as something that resembles a decent DD.

Excuse the epic necrobump, but i figure I throw just a tad bit of light of using CT. In VW when I find myself seriously resisted (and i mean 2-3 digit "oh wtfman" dmg), when I spam wings for zerg sake my CTs pulls ahead, many times between 1k-1.4k. This is thanks to the 300tp maxed ignore def mod, also my aftermath ODD would sometimes shank my ws Dmg. CT and the Rhongo was built HNMs in mind for sure and star/drakes is clearly best for instances where monsters dont have anti piercing traits and hardcore defs. But dont bet on decent numbers @100% tp for CT, you neee to cap your tp for sure for it to be a good utility..... which is where my complaint lies. I wont always have a wing available and builing 300tp just to CT is not worth it. Definitely needs to be enhanced or give Drg a backbone to help enhance it's power with JA or traits.

That's just... terrible.

If your getting such low numbers, then get off your a$$ and throw an Angon, or were you one of those idiots who only merited it to 1/5 for "procing".

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Originally Posted by saevel

If your getting such low numbers, then get off your a$$ and throw an Angon, or were you one of those idiots who only merited it to 1/5 for "procing".

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He has 5/5 Strafe.

why would you make an empy for anything other than aftermath procs?

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Originally Posted by Zerich

why would you make an empy for anything other than aftermath procs?

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I was going to, but saw it was the same NMs as the H2H and said screw it.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

I was going to, but saw it was the same NMs as the H2H and said screw it.

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yeah, it's still kinda sad with how underwhelming the weapon/ws combo is for drg :/

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

He has 5/5 Strafe.

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Then either unmerit it, or unmerit something else and get 5/5 Agnon and Relic +2 hands. 25% defense down is no joke, by itself it's a 33.33% increase in attack to EVERYONE in the party / alliance. With Dia II it's basically auto-capping everyone's attack on everything but the hardest of the hard (53.84% attack boost). It's better then berserk even. Heck even without the relic +2 hands it's still 25% attack boost to everyone in the alliance.

So Fcking tired of DRG's and WAR's who don't merit their proper damage abilities. Screws everyone else in the alliance.

You realaize I have no idea who you're talking about right?

And btw you mean "+3" or augmented, +2 doesn't have angon. lol
Don't want to go around confusing people now do we?

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

You realaize I have no idea who you're talking about right?

And btw you mean "+3" or augmented, +2 doesn't have angon. lol
Don't want to go around confusing people now do we?

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It was assumed to be augmented as I mentioned using it with Agnon.

More of a rant about people who don't set their proper support abilities, then later shrug their shoulders when their called upon to use them.