RNG Ammo

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Originally Posted by esoR

gah! be careful with such information! suggest vision bow, not siege! lol, we are lvl 90.. siege should be tossed on sight! :D

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Yeah, Kur is easily soloable on DNC. I imagine THF or NIN wouldn't have much trouble either. Regardless, a duo would destroy it too.

In regards to making new ammo, and making ammo more readily available in general, the development team is still looking into a variety of things, so please wait a bit more.

Currently the main reason high level ammo is not being circulated is due to the difficulty of obtaining the materials. We will be making adjustments in the upcoming version update so that these material items will be more prevalent and as a result the circulation of ammo should increase and prices should go down.

Awesome work Camate!

P.S. Tell the Dev team I love the new Trick Attack ability for RNG. Mind telling us the duration and recast? *winkwink*

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Originally Posted by Camate

In regards to making new ammo, and making ammo more readily available in general, the development team is still looking into a variety of things, so please wait a bit more.

Currently the main reason high level ammo is not being circulated is due to the difficulty of obtaining the materials. We will be making adjustments in the upcoming version update so that these material items will be more prevalent and as a result the circulation of ammo should increase and prices should go down.

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It would also help if there was interest in the job itself. Right now RNG and ranged attacks are so broken I'm not sure a new JA and more prevalent materials will do anything.

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Originally Posted by Camate

In regards to making new ammo, and making ammo more readily available in general, the development team is still looking into a variety of things, so please wait a bit more.

Currently the main reason high level ammo is not being circulated is due to the difficulty of obtaining the materials. We will be making adjustments in the upcoming version update so that these material items will be more prevalent and as a result the circulation of ammo should increase and prices should go down.

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I think the main deterrent is directly related to the requirment of a chain of high level crafters to ensure a higher HQ rate, so its actually worth the time you put into farming. Currently, antlion arrows are my choice at this time, and to make a decent stash of them, i first have to farm antlion jaws, because there is no other usable reason to farm them anymore other than for antlion arrows, then i have to hope theres bone chips on the AH, or go kill sleletons... THEN i have to hope someone with 85+ bonecraft is still playing and actually online. The wood is taken care of by a simple trip to sandoria, and the fletchings, again, no realistic use for colibri feathers anymore, so i farm those, and use my clothcraft to make those. Thankfully i capped synergy as well, but to be able to hq them, i have to find/beg/pay a high level wood worker to sit in my party while i synergize arrows, bc my 60-woodworking is too low to hq at a high rate.

Producing arrows is a daunting task that requires too many high level crafts to be able to keep costs down. High level crafters spent millions upon millions of gil getting their craft up, and selling quickly depleting items such as ammo / silent oils etc is their reliable source of hopefully come out on top and actually pulling a profit. There needs to be a balance where the hq rate is either raised, or the nq result is raised so you get more for the trouble, or have the items needed to make arrowheads produce more arrowheads per synth.

Relying on and waiting for certain crafters shouldnt be a NECESSITY for any job to function, and since ranger is my passion and my main since july 2004, and gandiva is my bow, ive seen my share of 100-300 gil per shot arrows fly away from me, and having gandiva with a 5-hit build means: just under 40% of the arrows i go through are just from jishnu's radiance, and boy do they go fast.

agreed. the materials are not particularly hard to get... the RAW materials. Take a thief for an hour and you can have sufficient materials to make several full stacks of quivers of antlion and/or ruszor arrows (until I started leveling ranger I just NPC'd and/or dumped them). Now bolts and bullets? whole 'nother story. But seriously, all this end-game ammo requires crafters about 90 just to hit the skill cap, so HQ is gonna be few and far between. Couple that with it requiring a high level synergist too? Then add in that the only person really benefiting from their time is me (to the short-sighted, the long-sighted realize that with lvl-appropriate ammo ranger is back in viable DD mode [if the proposed changes in fact work as advertised]).

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Originally Posted by Camate

Currently the main reason high level ammo is not being circulated is due to the difficulty of obtaining the materials. We will be making adjustments in the upcoming version update so that these material items will be more prevalent and as a result the circulation of ammo should increase and prices should go down.

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I'm not sure this will help with the stuff Ranger uses, since the materials are already obtainable from killing monsters, but it will definitely help Corsair out. Good to hear they're taking the issue seriously enough to work on it, if nothing else.

Quick question. The newer ammo, according to wiki it sounds like it is synergy only. Can you make with normal woodworking?

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Originally Posted by xbobx

Quick question. The newer ammo, according to wiki it sounds like it is synergy only. Can you make with normal woodworking?

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if you can I've never found a recipie for it... and I've looked.

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Originally Posted by Catsby

Right now RNG and ranged attacks are so broken I'm not sure a new JA and more prevalent materials will do anything.

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Broken how?

I have two rangers in my LS, one was thrilled at the last version update - another never uses his RNG because "it's boring".

RNG is very weak compared to other options. The job itself is broken due to its damage capabilities.

MNK goes nuts.
MNK pulls hate.
MNK keeps going nuts.
MNK doesnt care.
MNK kills mob.
MNK smiles

RNG gets in sweetspot
RNG goes nuts
RNG pulls hate
RNG is no longer in sweetspot
RNG makes the other DDs chase the mob
RNG is shouted at
RNG cries
RNG changes job to DD BRD or something better.

RNG needs to have -enmity traits that increase with level.
RNG needs to have low enmity shots from behind a mob permanently with no ability use.
RNG needs to have hate loss abilities which can be used frequently.

Until these issues are addressed rng is just a broken and more or less useless job unless you want blue proc during piercing time.

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Originally Posted by Francisco

Broken how?

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Because snapshot is a piss-poor replacement for haste. And the only way to do decent damage is Jishnu's Radiance.

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Originally Posted by Camate

In regards to making new ammo, and making ammo more readily available in general, the development team is still looking into a variety of things, so please wait a bit more.

Currently the main reason high level ammo is not being circulated is due to the difficulty of obtaining the materials. We will be making adjustments in the upcoming version update so that these material items will be more prevalent and as a result the circulation of ammo should increase and prices should go down.

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The real problem isn't materials it's the synergy requirement combined with RNG being a dead job. If ammo is made to be cheaper high level crafters will be even less likely to want to make it because not only will it sell slowly there will also be less profit to be had.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

The real problem isn't materials it's the synergy requirement combined with RNG being a dead job. If ammo is made to be cheaper high level crafters will be even less likely to want to make it because not only will it sell slowly there will also be less profit to be had.

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You can have the same amount of profit with cheaper material cost. Doesn't seem likely to end up that way, but it is possible.

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Ok, so I've been thinking of ways to solve RNG's issues with emnity. The things I've come up with are asking s lot of the dev team, but it would put RNG back on the map. We do pay for the damage we do each shot, so why shouldnt we be an awesome form of damage?!

Things that would work:

- Eliminate distance modifiers, and let RNG be what it was when it was created, instead of trying to mold it into some sort of complex damagedealer that is more of a neusance than it is worth. Yeah kraken club rng would be insane, but for 40m, or a .5% chance of getting one from "Up In Arms", its not like it would be every RNG in the game...DRK with kraken club is still better for dmg for the most part

- Have a 30 second ability that allows emnity gain from a weaponskill to have a delay of about 5 seconds, so you could run to the sweet spot, hit the ability, weaponskill, and run back in to normal melee range without dragging the monster all over the place.

- Add an ability or a special ammunition that is used on a party member that works basically like a reverse callobrator and dumps a portion of your emnity on the tank until you have time to get behind them and use rng trick attack dealio.

- Lastly is a bit extreme, but the only thing left would be a super special ability that allowed RNG to use an ability called "The Orb of Confusion", which converted 10,000 of your accumulated experience points into a single merit point for use on another job, so you could just level-down and make really good use of all thise hard earned experience points on jobs that worked correctly.

Sorry for the harshness on that last one, i was initally going to name it something else that would have been bad-news-bears, but the sponge bob referrence seemed pretty awesome, so i went with that. :).

They should make it so attacks don't cause Shadowbind to wear off. Tht would really fix the distance problem. Wouldn't be too broken either because even though you could go nuts for 45 seconds without the mob wailing on you, it'd still come for you afterwards and try to eatface.

I don't entirely understand the ammo issue. Maybe it's just Quetz but I don't ever have issues getting Antlion Arrows from the AH. I see a problem getting Ruszor Arrows but that's because the materials are near impossible to get.

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Originally Posted by Glecent

I don't entirely understand the ammo issue. Maybe it's just Quetz but I don't ever have issues getting Antlion Arrows from the AH. I see a problem getting Ruszor Arrows but that's because the materials are near impossible to get.

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This. Levi has a fairly healthy Ammo market, Antlions aren't hard to get at all (last time i checked, 90-100k per stack of antlion quivers), Ruzsors are though.

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Originally Posted by Glecent

I don't entirely understand the ammo issue. Maybe it's just Quetz but I don't ever have issues getting Antlion Arrows from the AH. I see a problem getting Ruszor Arrows but that's because the materials are near impossible to get.

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Then you do, in fact, understand the ammo issue.

There are crafters, the problem's in the materials. I've given it a little bit of thought, and come up with a couple ideas as to how SE could throw us a bone without doing much at all.

Ruszor Arrows...Ruszors are annoying, and there's little reason to fight them, aside from their fangs. But what if we gave people another reason to fight them, like involving them in magian trials for a popular weapon path or two, and make the drop rate a little better on their fangs. It'd have to be a trial that people are going to do, regardless of challenge, like the cure potency staff, or an empyrean weapon upgrade trial. Tbh, I'd kinda like this *not* be a Blm-related trial, since Blms (esp. the quality ones that do magian staves) are notorious for having inventory nightmares, and since Ruszor Fangs don't stack, you could see them quickly going to waste.

Option two is Voidwatch. You get a lot of crap drops in Voidwatch because they feel the need for "everyone participating to get something, even if that something is crappy." But what if we added the materials used to make modern RNG ammo to the pool for that crap, and made it fairly prevalent? You'd have people doing Voidwatch putting materials into circulation, etc, etc, ammo appears on the AH.

Voidwatch, in turn, being HARD content as opposed to kiddie-land abyssea, gives RNG the opportunity to do its job again, and should hopefully see some revived interest in the job. Ranger shines better against high defense, non-zergable mobs, being less reliant on buffs and haste (which ranger doesn't need, we are NOT a melee) to do steady, consistent damage from outside of AoE range. There's more to strategy than who can do the most damage to a wild rabbit. Could you zerg down Voidwatch NMs? Maybe. But why would you want to, you're not going to get drops that way.

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Originally Posted by Camate

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Ninja Tools: I want to be able to create inoshishinofuda/shikanofuda/chonofuda through synthesis.

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We are planning on implementing this.

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They mentioned in the nin post about add non-synergy recipes for the master ninjutsu tools, would it be unreasonable to do this for ammo as well? I understand the idea of rewarding people for using synergy, so tone the yields back to normal ammo 33/66/99 yield model. As-is, the synergy recipe for Ruszor arrows is actually pretty stupid efficient. 1 Ruszor Fang = 6~36 stacks of arrows, depending on HQs.

Dark Adaman Bullets / Bolts & Oberon's Bullets - These use crafting materials already fairly common in the game. Just add the option to synth them without synergy at a less efficient ratio, and it should work itself out.

That's my two gil on the matter. Now back to more important matters, like when we're getting our passive enmity reduction trait based on position or info on the recast / effectiveness of Decoy shot.

great! so what's the news on Cor ammo?

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Originally Posted by Raksha

You can have the same amount of profit with cheaper material cost. Doesn't seem likely to end up that way, but it is possible.

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If the profit per stack is too low then it's not worth the work involved in making them. That's why I only make 50k-100k per stack foods and not mithkabobs. Sure they sell fast and I could make as much profit off mithkabobs if I did 10x as much work but it's just not worth synthesizing mass amounts of them for much lower profit per stack.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

If the profit per stack is too low then it's not worth the work involved in making them. That's why I only make 50k-100k per stack foods and not mithkabobs. Sure they sell fast and I could make as much profit off mithkabobs if I did 10x as much work but it's just not worth synthesizing mass amounts of them for much lower profit per stack.

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That's what I'm saying.

If it is profitable to make the ammo NOW, then it will still be profitable to make them if the material costs go down, but profit remains the same.

Just because the materials are super cheap doesn't mean you cant make huge profit on the synth.

I agree on the enmity thing...

I think a good solution would be to change the enmity gained from ranged attacks to strictly (or almost strictly) volatile enmity (the kind that goes down with time), removing any link (or almost all of any link) it has to cumulative enmity (the kind that goes down when you take damage. This would give rangers a little more control and the option to "hold back" for a while til the mob forgets about them (with CE, the mob doesn't forget).

Rangers DO have one advantage over MNKs and WARs as well... the ability to deal damage while avoiding AoE, -ga/-ja spells, auras, etc... (unless they're the target of course). Being able to stand at a distance and do good damage is a pretty nice advantage.

I like rangers... I kinda think they should work as somewhat "stealth" damage dealers... snipers or something... It's definitely a niche job - I'd like to see it get more opportunities...

One thing I'll say about the job as an outsider... I don't really view RNG as a "main job" people play full time. I'm sure some do... but I've always viewed it more as a "special" job used for certain fights where more conventional DDs aren't as practical. (Not many of those exist right now, however... to me RNG feels kinda like BRD or COR in Abyssea... nice to have... but a luxury of sorts... and you probably won't find one around).

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Originally Posted by Francisco

Rangers DO have one advantage over MNKs and WARs as well... the ability to deal damage while avoiding AoE, -ga/-ja spells, auras, etc... (unless they're the target of course). Being able to stand at a distance and do good damage is a pretty nice advantage

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Well, if you're using a gun or crossbow, the sweet spot is inside the AoE range, so you're screwed there too. Only bows have the luxury of being outside AoE range while maintaining a sweet spot.

Usually best way too lvl rng cheap is goo too lower jeuno too goblin junxshop and buy arrows!

I know this thread is a bit old but figured I'd bump it anyway. God knows the rng sub forum could use a bump once a week or so. It's otherwise like a mausoleum in here.

The main problem with rng ammo is that there is no reason for anyone to play ranger any more. There is no demand therefore nobody to buy the crafters' product therefore no crafters making it. The few rangers that do play and buy ammo pay through the nose because ammo is so scarce, the few crafters that do make it jack the price through the roof (which they always do when they post something for sale with zero other units currently on sale). This does not result in other crafters coming in and driving the prices back down again because the demand is so low.

The way to address the ammo problem is to give people a reason to play ranger again. Get more people playing the job and supply and demand will take care of itself.

ammo is always an issue and i agree that it should be infinite if u choose not to use any you can buy on ah the ur damage would be that of 2-3 if u buy from ah the it should be as is. i believe that would reduce the pain alot

I agree with Lokithor here. Ranger needs a reason to be played again, outside of diehard dedication. There are two parts to fixing this:
1. Add mobs with insane levels of defense/evasion. Ranger has ALWAYS shined better against the hard mobs, esp. those with lethal AoEs, like Gods in Sky (even post-floor removal), Fiat Lux' Shadow Lord, etc.
2. Fix Ranger's enmity dilema. While you can't fix stupid suicidal retards, an intelligent, restrained ranger should be able to keep themself out of the mob's attention. Vicious cycle that's been going since they distance equation was added (and disregard anyone who wants the distance factor removed -_-): Ranger stands at ideal distance > Ranger deals its best damage > Ranger pulls hate > Mob chases after the Ranger > Ranger is no longer at ideal distance, doing their best damage + everyone's pissed at the Ranger for moving the mob.

I've heard Decoy shot has potential, I haven't really had a chance to play with it myself yet, since it's in the harder events like Voidwatch that I think it's going to be the most pronounced. Sadly, I don't have the kanican-type reasoning or the patience to do the necessary tests to decipher the exact effect. I'm still waiting to see about our PASSIVE enmity reduction trait, but my gut's afraid we won't be getting it this update...may Altana have mercy if we don't see it in the next tho.

A couple additions to the crafting-side would help tho:
1. Add non-synergy recipes for everything made via synergy. Lower the yields as a trade-off.
2. Add/Increase drop rate of the annoying materials (such as Ruszor Fangs) to Voidwatch's "Crappy drop" pool.

While I'm sure that we'll see new ammo at 99, right now, Ruszors & Dark Adaman are the main factors. Ruszors are a total pain in the behind to farm, and rarely drop fangs in my experience. The main consolation is that the synergy recipes are stupid efficient, yielding 6~36 stacks of arrows per fang, depending on HQs.

Ammo is a necessary cost of Ranger. The fact that Ranger isn't free is part of what's kept the unskilled masses from playing Ranger, and I've always rather enjoyed that. I could invite Rangers without worrying about them being absolutely TERRIBLE like you do with any of the "Bandwagon jobs" of the time. And while yes, Ranger was bandwagon for a time in the wake of the Penta-Nerf while we still had our damage floor, that was also back in the day when people generally tried hard to be good at their jobs (except Plds, those were the dark ages /shudders).

That's my two gil on the matter.

P.S: Fancy60, these are the "English" forums, so please speak english.

Well if the cooldown on this new ability is like 5 mins I don't understand how that helps anybody. The enmity system is old and needs to be fixed. Also, it's not just the ammo availability that's a problem. Ammo has been boiled down to the laziest degree. Look at the way ammo varies and progresses up to level 60 and then do the same for 61-90. No new add. effects, no new elemental variants, no new patterns. It's just higher base damage without any utility.

So. Do we have more ammo now or is it too soon to tell?

they upped drop rate on ruszor fangs. thats a start?

sometimes their idea of upped is 1%. They said they upped the drop rate of coins in Woe, people get maybe one to two a run.

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Originally Posted by bungiefan

Say, turn them into something like spells. Get the ammo and have infinite use of it. RNG and COR are the most expensive jobs because of this, besides maybe NIN. That or NPC shops need to sell the ammo at a cost that can actually be affordable to players.

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BST, to a tremendous degree, is the most expensive job to maintain.
Some single HNM fights can cost 100k+ in consumables

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Originally Posted by Shadowsong

BST, to a tremendous degree, is the most expensive job to maintain.
Some single HNM fights can cost 100k+ in consumables

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That may be true but do they have trouble finding their jugs/biscuits?

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Originally Posted by Shadowsong

BST, to a tremendous degree, is the most expensive job to maintain.
Some single HNM fights can cost 100k+ in consumables

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People use Bst at HNM?

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Originally Posted by Camate

In regards to making new ammo, and making ammo more readily available in general, the development team is still looking into a variety of things, so please wait a bit more.

Currently the main reason high level ammo is not being circulated is due to the difficulty of obtaining the materials. We will be making adjustments in the upcoming version update so that these material items will be more prevalent and as a result the circulation of ammo should increase and prices should go down.

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Wouldn't it be easier to make pounch and quiver drop from voidwatch ?

They don't plan on making any WOW Changes too players they try too think of ways on how too nerf a player...
It is soo cool how Square Enix makes all these cool ideas i mean they Should Get a big GOLD Star that says Best Game of the Year! I love Square Enix Cool amazing outstanding ideas for us too play there games makes me wana play there game more golf clap.

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Originally Posted by Lordscyon

They don't plan on making any WOW Changes too players they try too think of ways on how too nerf a player...
It is soo cool how Square Enix makes all these cool ideas i mean they Should Get a big GOLD Star that says Best Game of the Year! I love Square Enix Cool amazing outstanding ideas for us too play there games makes me wana play there game more golf clap.

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what is this i dont even

I forgot to ask earlier but was any new ammo added? I wasn't watching datmine threads anywhere.