ranger needs a new 2hr

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shiyo

True, barrage is actually better than eagle eye shot.........

x_x

---

Yes once you get past the wooden arrow stage.

just gonna say, as a realistic new 2hr, 30 seconds of 100% rapid shot would be awesome. you could stack it with decoy,camo,barrage,etc. it's been said a few times before, but its clearly the best all around solution. hundred fists is wasted on mnk now days, but if you put it on rng? thats a whole different story.

it still requires skill and timing to use, synergyze's with subs, and rng's set bonus. probably the same dmg output as you would have with a super barrage, while giving the player more control.

thoughts?

Ok so I was just watching "The Last Samurai" again and this Katsumoto's son was shooting with a bow like with some machine gun. I tho to myself "Damn he has like 90% Snapshot or 100% Rapid shot". Then I tho "that's it! That should be RNG 2hr!". 100% Rapid shot activation for next 1 or 2min. That would be awesome imo.

With 100% snapshot you are still going to have to deal with the issue when you get hate, then pause while the tank gets it's attention back, and then we have a wasted 2hr. I would like the 2hr to be enmity free or at least address this issue. Maybe 100% snapshot and allow you to hit the sweet spot at any distance.

Arrow Barrage- Unleash a salvo of arrows confusing the enemy from finding the source.
Duration: 1(maybe up too 3) Minute/s

+50% Snapshot
+20% Sweet Spot Range
+50-75% Chance to Negate Enmity Generation per shot. (Can't have 100% there has to be at least a little risk to using a 2hr)

just to clarify, 100% rapid shot rate would perform very similarly to the snapshot boosts you guys are suggesting.

if you just tp during the 2hr and dont ws, with -enmity gear, decoy shot, camouflage, and standing at range in the sweet spot, you arent going to pull that much hate.. but maybe -25/30 enmity while under 2hr sounds very nice.

it plays out like so:
sharp shot > double-shot > decoy > 2hr > camo:

% of enmity is offset, you'd be -50/55 enmity from 2hr/camo. you wont be taking attention off the tank with all that active.

more sweet-spot distance isnt totally required, and it removes some of the challenge.. at least for archery, for marksmanship the whole sweet-spot needs to be pushed back out of melee range.

(maybe a seperate stance/ability to hit sweet-spot from far away would be beneficial. that sounds like something we'd need more than every 2hrs)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by esoR

more sweet-spot distance isnt totally required

---

Even if there is another ability that does it, it would be nice if whatever 2hour ability Ranger has makes however many shots it does perform like they are shot from ideal range. I don't know if the current Ranger 2hour does this or not, but if it doesn't, it should.

Even if they dont completely change the 2 hour ability, they should at least change it so it can't bloody miss. Rediculous.

All of you seem to be going all out with this idea. Honestly I would just be happy if EES was a forced critical with 100% accuracy and 5.0x damage modifier. Would be a pretty easy fix that in no way would be overpowering. However at that point it would still actually be worth using at least.

Logic behind the modifiers to change is just to make sure it is something that -finally- beats the other basic weapon skills. I remember years ago when I first got Sidewinder and realized it did more than my EES; I cried. I also remembering seeing LL running around unclaimed, going up to him, popping off my 2hr, and it missing. -.-;

ranger is currently the only DD job who's 2hr lasts 1 hit. infact, aside from smn's odin/alex it is the only 2hr that is lost immediately. almost every other 2hr has the possibility of dealing massive DoT, even on spike dmg jobs. adjusting EES to a crit slugshot will likely just be forgotten in a few levels. then we'd be right back here complaining about it.

I'm sorry, but I have to completely disagree with that. Mijin Gakure is also only a single hit. Beyond that fact, almost every 2hr is situational or worthless. Mighty Strikes is amazing, I won't lie. Hundred Fists can put out some great damage as well. Spirit Surge is pretty weak honestly, I use it from time to time but it is nothing ground breaking. Blood Weapon is only useful in certain situations with the right setup and good support while using the right weapon and only on difficult enemies that haven't been made in the past three years since everything newer builds resistance to it quickly and most of the old enemies are a joke now anyway; in other words, limited use at best. Perfect Dodge is kind of a joke, I do use it if I'm in danger of dying, but that is the only use and you can still die with it up, or die 30s later. Familiar is also a very sketchy and situational 2hr. Mijin Gakure is only really a weakness removal; useful but limited. Meikyo Shisui is also one of the more useful 2hr. Azure Lore was changed to be better and I still think it is pretty awful. I've used Trance from time to time, it is a good life saver, but it is a support only 2hr on a job that makes a good DD. Wild Card is just random, hard to really give it much credit. Astral Flow is extremely situational as well, and not really much of a damage improvement over normal BP; Alexander is one of the better niche uses for it. I won't go much into mages as the focus seems to mostly be on comparing DD 2hr, though I know BLM and RDM can do decent damage with both of theirs if they can live.

So, in a nutshell for DD 2hr; WAR is amazing and by far the most broken 2hr in the game. MNK/SAM are both good. DNC/SMN are only really support. DRG/BLU both boost damage slightly. DRK/THF/NIN/BST/COR are all extremely situational.

Now if you consider that the only 2hr in the game that have ever been changed(that I recall) are DRG and BLU, you will notice neither is on par with the best DD 2hr. Both are useful to boost damage slightly, but they won't absolutely decimate anything like WAR does, nor will they drop 10k+ damage easy like SAM or MNK. So I truly think that is about the damage range any changes to EES would put it at.

Some of the idea's posed here earlier are just plain absurd. Any barrage-type change would just be overpowering. I even think the high Rapid Shot/Snapshot increases would be overpowering. I'm just incredibly curious how much damage you all normally do per shot if you think changes like this would not break the game for RNG; likewise why so many of you seem to think RNG is just an awful DD.

forgot about mijin's damage, so it slipped my mind. as far as comparing to other DD only 2hrs, (MNK/WAR/SAM/DRK/DRG) these are the abilities i was talking about competing with. and as for the barrage argument, adding any more to that abil is just wasting ammo (which unlike other dd's is finite.) drg's can be used a a semi berserk/meditate, on top of all your jump timers being reset, that's a big chunk of damage in a short time, up there with sam's.

in a capped haste situation, hundred fists would actually slow you down. really the only one thats rediculously broken is war, in the sense that in 30 seconds they could do upwards of 30k damage (outside of abyss) currently there's no one job which could compare with that.. atm the best dmg a rng can put out will put you up behind drg, not using an OaT weapon. except without the haste and melee hits that drg benefits from.

removing or severely reducing the animation for drawing the ranged weapon and aiming for a short amount of time is nowhere as broken as the other DD 2hrs, especially since we lack any other way to speed up our dmg outside of velocity shot and pre-shot gear, which is marginal at best.

assuming snapshot effect will never be added to haste, 90% of rng are still severely behind any other dd in a competing situation. (if you want to compete with other DD's you are probably going to be meleeing)

anyway.. rng isnt a bad DD, but it is a neglected one. the only place rng has seen usefulness is high tier VW imo. even there, i'd probably bring a cor instead of a rng.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumiya

Now if you consider that the only 2hr in the game that have ever been changed(that I recall) are DRG and BLU, you will notice neither is on par with the best DD 2hr. Both are useful to boost damage slightly, but they won't absolutely decimate anything like WAR does, nor will they drop 10k+ damage easy like SAM or MNK. So I truly think that is about the damage range any changes to EES would put it at.

---

I don't know the complete list, but Ninja's two hour was definitely adjusted a lot. Scholar, and arguably Summoner have also had changes to their two hour abilities changed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by esoR

drg's can be used a a semi berserk/meditate, on top of all your jump timers being reset, that's a big chunk of damage in a short time, up there with sam's.

---

I'm sorry but it isn't. Spirit Surge resets your jump timers, but dismisses your wyvern, meaning soul and spirit jump become worthless and you end up using Jump/High Jump, which return normal TP and do very average damage. I don't know where you're getting it's anything like berserk, it only givres 20Str. The haste from it is classified as Magic Haste, and whilst that means times without a bard it is awesome, as soon as you get a bard (zergs) it doesn't do anything. The cure is good, but restoring breath recovers about half of it every 1 minute, and if you have time to let a mob wail on you to the point you'd need to 2hr and not breath for HP, then you could have spent that time engaging, letting the wyvern get in a melee attack then super jumping hate onto it and running away.

Spirit Surge is a decent 2hr, but it has a few flaws that makes it not exceptional. For example, if they made Spirit and Soul jumps act as if the wyvern was present during spirit surge, it would be awesome. If they changed the magic haste to JA haste, it would be supremely awesome.

I have to agree with noodles about Spirit Surge. It has never really been that amazing of a 2hr, but it is definately a bonus over Call Wyvern. It just simply won't keep up with the other top three in damage though. As for Hundred Fists, you're right, it can be quite worthless sometimes. Depends if you're in a full zerg setup or just doing popping it for the extra damage really. In a zerg setup though, the only good DD 2hr at all are WAR/SAM, and DRK -if- you're fighting something you can Blood Weapon effectively. Considering there are 10+ DD's in the game depending on your classification of one, that isn't really a justifiable reason to make RNG do better than everyone else.

I am still am curious what kind of damage most other RNG here do though. I don't play the new content, I quit end game shells a long time ago. However in Abyssea I know my RNG is one of my top DD's, and I have leveled them all. I don't have Rudra's, Ukko's, Victory Smite, or Hi, but I also don't have Jishnu's. My RNG still preforms better than most of them, except my WAR and maybe my MNK. I just keeping of the suggested 'super barrage' 2hr or the 'hundred arrows' idea as being so far beyond broken.

If I could do an extra 7-10k with my 2hr instantly, I would be extremely happy. That is why I suggested the critical Slugwinder, as I would estimate it doing around that much damage. However since my normal Barrage already comes close to that point, anything firing more than 10 arrows at once would be far too good in my eyes. When I can get normal shots up to and over 1k, being able to fire off ~15 additional ones in a 30s window also seems to be too good. For a full af3+2 and Gandiva RNG, I would imagine something like 100% Rapid Shot for 30s would let them drop more damage in 30s than Mighty Strikes could even touch.

Again though, I am curious how much damage other RNG do. I've tried estimating my #s if my gear was better, but that isn't the same as actually having people with that better gear telling me. So where do decked RNG stand these days?

spirit surge also augment jump/HJ to do extra traits (lower def/reduce tp etc) and in that case, its still a semi hasso.. the bigger point was, under 2hr, DRG have a ton of tp generation on top of the ridiculous output they already have.

i believe war/sam/drk/drg/mnk and rng overall SHOULD produce similar damage. if we're allowed to deal that kind of damage outside of aoe range, than rng has earned their place back in the ranks of good dds.

Honestly, the extra big of haste during Spirit Surge really isn't that amazing. It is nice, sure, but you only wind up getting about an extra 3-7 hits out of it depending on how much time you spend using WS/JA. However as stated by noodles, the delay reduction is moot if you get capped magic haste from support jobs. As for the bonus to Jump/High Jump, the defense down doesn't stack with Angon and the TP lost from High Jump is a one time thing making it rather minor. It truly just is not amazing, but still better than Call Wyvern so I have no complaints really.

Generally dealing damage, not during zergs, RNG really is above most of the other DD. Even during zergs as it stands I would say they beat at least half of them, outside of the ones mentioned earlier. However I really don't think RNG damage is the issue anymore, RNG enmity it. Yes our 2hr needs a boost badly, but I am otherwise happy with the damage output of RNG. The only issue in my eyes besides a minor boost to EES is just hate control.

The fact we can't operate efficiently at our ideal range for long gets hold, and pulling hate so easily makes the benefits of RNG moot. So far Decoy Shot hasn't even impressed me that much, and I still notice myself pulling hate far too easily. I almost wish that enmity would scale for ranged attacks based on distance, so as we go further out we generate less hate. Though I think the best idea I've seen so far for hate adjustments was someone who suggested making ranged attacks VE instead of CE.

i agree with what you're saying, but for the argument of the 2hr alone, it needs a remake to make it even worth using, and if you're doing a remake, it should fit with everything else the job has to offer. on the flip side, it should be overpowered enough to warrant the extremely long cool down.

RNG should be complicated, you should be rewarded for being tactical, with each situation, not punished for it. this whole topic is a minor issue though, the enmity issue should be addressed before all others.

as for the zerg discussion, we are in the fight, but i'm not sure how high in the ranks rng is due to not being calculated like melee. melee ws are subject to DA/TA/QA on top of being multi hit in many cases or multi hit critical in drg's case (the closest competitor) in the time you pull your weapon out for a barrage, unless you get a rapid shot proc, any other job has gotten in 3-5 swings if 2h, and like 8 swings for dual wield, god help you if you're using a gun.. you've lost the game.

i'm starting to think they f-d up ranged enmity specifically and just forgot about it. you can deal less damage than a regular melee and still pull hate off them in successive attacks, and on WS if i do a 2k jishnu, and say a sam does a 3k fudo, i'll probably get hate 4/5 times.. (unless the sam closes light with a 3k SC) these are the things i feel need addressed.

for changing RA to VE as opposed to CE.. would that not slow down the tp phase? since VE is generally always much higher than CE, but decay rate is much much higher. too me it sounds like you'd want to take more time in between shots to let your hate cool down. it's an interesting concept, none the less.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by esoR

spirit surge also augment jump/HJ to do extra traits (lower def/reduce tp etc)

---

Fairly irrelevant. In a zerg, you'd throw an angon at the very start anyway, meaning jump's def down does nothing. They don't reduce TP, and even if they did it wouldn't mean a thing because with a few melee swinging at 60-70+ haste, the mob will get 100%TP almost instantly.

I dont even understand how you can say "lower defense and reduce tp... its a semi hasso". Hasso does neither lower defence nor reduce TP. It works as a Hasso+10 if you don't have a bard (Hasso: 7(?) Str, 10% Haste vs 20 Str 25% Haste) and is Hasso-1 if you have a bard (10 Haste 7(?) Str vs 8~% Haste 20 Str).