Allow Weaponskills from off-hand weapons with 50%- damage

This is a horrible/bad/useless idea. All the reasons why have been said 50 times over no doubt.

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Originally Posted by Raksha

any player that started playing before abyssea would have lost way more time witout tele than anybody can loose on wainting trigger
if you remove teleport might as well remove all warps/Horst/conflux and you'll loose more time than having to swap weapons
Thats why I qualified it by saying "(at least since the introduction of the proc system)"

Do people not read stuff inside parentheses?

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do people read all ?(see bolded part (was not bolded but wasn't inside parentheses))

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Explaining that it's an idea that almost no one would benefit from
I'm guessing it depends on the definition of "almost no one". One in a million? Underestimate. Half the people? Overestimate. Well, then again, I believe if this was actually added, no one would complain and quite a few people may end up actually using it, even if they feel no need for it at all now.

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lot of people complain with stuff like
"why did se add <insert random update they deem wotrhless>* insted of adding new/not reskinned content

* read after teaser on chocobo circuit,fellow,pankration ..... and you can find this kind of QQing in thread that are still on 1st page

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Originally Posted by hiko

do people read all ?(see bolded part (was not bolded but wasn't inside parentheses))

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I didnt feel the need to respond to your comment about removing Horst etc because I never advocated removing teleports.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Its not all as simple as you make it sound. This is a general statement. you just don't seem to understand that while yes, its just a pretty animation, the time it would take to remake every WS from the offhand, and to allow said weaponskills to be use would take longer than it would take to remove redundancies from Chat logs, something they've already said they don't have the time for. So there is no realistic way we'll ever see this for at least the next year.
(Addendum below in Edit4)

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The idea that you would have to look at any WS at all is still wrong. About the implementation, and its risks due to "spaghetti code", I guess we'll just have to disagree on that. I have only my own experience to go on, and unless I get a glance at SE's code, a theory is all it'll be. However, I have well founded base for my arguments. On the other hand, I doubt your "phenomenal" amount of examples' relation to this matter. I even doubt some of them caused what people thought they did. But it's impossible to prove any of that, so no point arguing.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Point being, the time it would take to code (Please note, I use the word "code" as a general term for putting something into the game) Weaponskills to be Nerfed offhand, to be used offhand, and to make Off-hand Animations for every weapon would be greater than it would take to remove Chat-Redundancies, again, something SE themselves have already said would take too much time to implement.

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As I said before, no.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

On the Subject of bad players. Sadly thats not subjective in my eyes. If you're goal is to trigger Blue, and your mob is now sitting at 1% HP without Blue triggered, You're a bad player. You should have held the mob, and brought a TP mob. Or learn to time better. I know this wasn't your example, I'm simply pulling it from something else mentioned in this thread.

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You're making several assumptions about the situation that simply don't always hold true. Let's take the example I gave on the first page, we had Empousa, but no blue stagger and were about to kill it. Suddenly a DRK friend randomly shows up who was also looking for it. Bad news, Empousa was at 5% and flying. Since it's nearly impossible to stagger it while it's flying, due to TP/spell spam, and almost as impossible to survive, due to its constant high-damage attacks, and only lands after some amount of damage is done, we meleed it down further. At 1% we said screw it and were about to kill it, when it finally landed. But by that point, the next WS killed it.

I can think of plenty of situation where something similar could happen. When you hold a mob, wait for someone to come stagger it but don't wanna hold the mob for ages, because three LS are standing around you, looking angry. So naturally you'd want to melee it down further. Then first blue is unclean, next blue unclean, then your naked WAR75 with no buffs dies to an AoE attack and has to get up again. Before you know it, the mob is down to 1% again, because you're all so weak. Either way, your assumption is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

However, I Can't even name 1 time when I've been sitting at 100% TP, Where I needed to use my off-hand Weapons Weaponskill, and thought "Gee i wish i could without switching". These situations are all incredibly vague and hypothetical to the point of ridiculousness.

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Of course. Because right now you can't do it. If this was implemented, you would be more likely to do just that.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I can't think of a single job in the game that always wields 2 separate weapons as a normal form of DD. I'd say perhaps COR, but I'm not to keen on what WS's that job gets, I dont think they get any Exclusive Dagger or Sword Weaponskills?

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WAR used to do it with Ridill (and even with Joyeuse), DNC has been known to do it as well on occasion, as has DRK. Situationally I've even done it on my underleveled WAR back in the day (Lv50 BC, Axe/MKris for Gale Axe spam). No one said it's standard, no one even said it's for DD purposes. It can have strategic uses though. And still, the same point applies as before, I was talking about how it would be after this was implemented, not how it is now.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Plus, personally if it did ever come to a job, I think having to cycle through up to 15 Weaponskills to get the one you want (Assuming you're not using a Macro) would kind of suck (Lets use RNG as an Example, Axe/Dagger and a Bow, thats a lot of Crap to cycle through).

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Weird argument. Ever tried CTRL+M?

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

on the topic of Ranged Weaponry/Main Weapons. Seems kinda like "yah you did"

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there already has to be a function which produces available weapon skills depending on the weapon, all they'd have to do is run it twice. It already is done with CORs and RNGs, as someone pointed out before, so it definitely is possible.
I'm not saying it should be implemented,

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Right here it sounds like you're saying "Ranged Weaponskills are already displayed with your main Weaponskills, Whats the difference?". I could be understanding you wrong. I'm not sure.

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You're reading it wrong:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

It already is done with CORs and RNGs, as someone pointed out before, so it definitely is possible.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

you can't honestly type to me in a serious conflexion saying you can't tell the monumental difference between allowing an Off-hand Weapon's WS to be used with main hand, and a Ranged Weapon Weaponskills?

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I never said it was the same thing. I simply said it's possible. That's why I said that I was talking about something different when you asked that. Also, I never said that offhand weapon skills should be used with the main hand, so that was wrong too. I think that's a silly idea. It should be performed with the off hand, naturally.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Unless you're full-timing the Weapon you want to equip in your sub hand (which you shouldn't.) This is moot. because Switching your Main weapon won't dequip your sub weapon so long as your never remove your main weapon. So unless your Sub weapon is what you want your main weapon to be the steps you listed are not correct.

When I'm on THF, I generally Dual Wield Daggers (of course), The only step i need to take is to switch my main hand. When i'm on BST, its 2x Axe, When i'm on PLD, Its Sword/Shield (I'm never on pld =.=a) when i'm on NIN, its Kata/kata. So i'd never need to fully de-quip my main hand weapon.

What jobs do you generally play on where you continually wield 2 different weapons? now be perfectly honest with me :| don't make something up to get your point through.

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As in me personally? None. But I did name some before. And when you do it, you usually have a TP generating weapon in the off hand, which would be perfect to gain TP on in the mainhand, which is why you'd want to use that one. You don't even have to equip the old mainhand weapon in the off hand again, I guess in most cases you wouldn't, since it's faster to gain TP with a multi-hit weapon alone (if it is indeed one). In any case, I was just trying to point out how tedious changing weapons can be. Normally it's just a bit less tedious.

A wall of text begets a wall of text, that's the way of internet arguments.

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Originally Posted by Khajit

This is a horrible/bad/useless idea. All the reasons why have been said 50 times over no doubt.

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I didn't hear a reason against it so far. Neither the fact that it won't be imminently useful to everyone, nor the semi-founded and debateable opinion that it would be hard to implement count as arguments against it.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Any other excuse is invalid. I know for one i wouldn't sub an inferior weapon in my offhand simply to have access to a WS I'll almost never use (Someone used BST/DNC as an example for Aeolian Edge, I'd never use that WS, even for Amber, I have Primal Rend.) and if i ever wanted to use Aeolian Edge, I'd like Gear Atma for it, and equip a dagger.

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You should try AE sometime then, it works pretty well on BST. I`ll gear and atma for AE instead of Primal Rend any day of the week. Depends on what you`ve got to play with I guess though. Martial Knife, OA2-4 Axe, plus appropriate atmas and pets do the trick pretty well.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I didn't hear a reason against it so far. Neither the fact that it won't be imminently useful to everyone, nor the semi-founded and debateable opinion that it would be hard to implement count as arguments against it.

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For the amount of merit this idea has (i.e. next to none) pretty much any effort to implement it is a waste. There are already a myriad of avenues to proc in Abyss, if you have any clue whatsoever what you're doing, which i'm sure includes you too. Try looking at it from SE's point of view, they want to give us good new content and fix actual problems, not making what is probably quite a complicated change to assist the occasional late person or someone who decides they want a drop while they're twiddling their thumbs in Port Jeuno. Your example is a very unusual situation too, and if it takes an exceptional circumstance to justify the reasoning for a change, then chances are it's not worth it.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I didn't hear a reason against it so far. Neither the fact that it won't be imminently useful to everyone, nor the semi-founded and debateable opinion that it would be hard to implement count as arguments against it.

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THen you obviously have not read a single post in this thread so far other than the OP and your own posts.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

For the amount of merit this idea has (i.e. next to none) pretty much any effort to implement it is a waste. There are already a myriad of avenues to proc in Abyss, if you have any clue whatsoever what you're doing, which i'm sure includes you too. Try looking at it from SE's point of view, they want to give us good new content and fix actual problems, not making what is probably quite a complicated change to assist the occasional late person or someone who decides they want a drop while they're twiddling their thumbs in Port Jeuno. Your example is a very unusual situation too, and if it takes an exceptional circumstance to justify the reasoning for a change, then chances are it's not worth it.

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I don't disagree there at all. I said three times already that I don't feel a need for this to be added. But as I explained in this post, saying that it's not worth implementing is not an argument against it, because that is for SE alone to decide and any speculation at all is purely hypothetical (including my own). What if it takes just 3min to implement? Would that still be time wasted? Arguable I guess, since barely anyone feels a need for it. Personally, I think the idea makes sense, regardless of its usefulness. And as I said before, if it actually was implemented, I doubt anyone would complain.

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Originally Posted by Khajit

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Originally Posted by Arcon

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Originally Posted by Khajit

This is a horrible/bad/useless idea. All the reasons why have been said 50 times over no doubt.

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I didn't hear a reason against it so far. Neither the fact that it won't be imminently useful to everyone, nor the semi-founded and debateable opinion that it would be hard to implement count as arguments against it.

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THen you obviously have not read a single post in this thread so far other than the OP and your own posts.

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Seeing how you can't (or at least don't) name a reason yourself, this post (and the one before) make you more of a troll than the OP.

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What if it takes just 3min to implement?

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It's still not very useful, seeing as the entire game has been designed from the ground up without it. Besides, it's still 3 minutes that could be spent on something else.

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And as I said before, if it actually was implemented, I doubt anyone would complain.

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I'm not sure if I'd complain or not, i'd certainly feel insulted though.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

It's still not very useful, seeing as the entire game has been designed from the ground up without it. Besides, it's still 3 minutes that could be spent on something else.



I'm not sure if I'd complain or not, i'd certainly feel insulted though.

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lol, why feel insulted?

I think it would be fun and interesting? where is the harm in it?

Those complaining that it would be useless are clueless. Would it be game changing? almost certainly not, but thats not useless. I gave a few examples in my initial post to the thread.
It probably is not a practical change, but it could be fun in a small way. I'm surprised at how strongly so many have felt over this idea. Its not a threat to anything.

It is useless. If you're too lazy to put the weapon in your main equipment slot and lose that 10~ or so tp, and weaponskill at half-power because it's equipped in the off-hand (if this was implemented), then you'd be a fool and a n00b. If they didn't put a damage restriction on it, it'd be completely unbalanced and the death of 2H weapon jobs like Samurai.

"You don't have access to two different pools of weaponskills simultaneously? Gtfo."
"But I can proc!"
"So can the other guy, except he doesn't need to waste that precious 1-2 seconds switching weapons."
"But I have a Great Katana!"
"So do Ninjas."
"Mine do more damage!"
"So? We're trying to proc, not kill it."
"What about when it's time to kill it?"
"We have WAR for that, go level WAR!"

^ Sounds a lot like what things are like now, if they were even worse, if you ask me. Feeling strongly over this idea is because it's a hordecore troll thread intended to mock legitimate ideas and to spark idiotic arguments while he sits back and watches. That's irrelevant to the people agreeing with the bad idea though.

Not a threat to anything? Don't make me cry. (If you find this offensive, can't help it, the idea just looks blatantly stupid and troll-inspired if you ask me, if you don't see that, there's nothing I can do to change that nor will I try further than this.)

If I had to decide between SE giving drgs the option to change wyvern colour, and the ability to ws with offhand weapon for 50% damage, I'd pick the first one.

This just screams lazy, lazy, lazy.

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

It is useless. If you're too lazy to put the weapon in your main equipment slot and lose that 10~ or so tp, and weaponskill at half-power because it's equipped in the off-hand (if this was implemented), then you'd be a fool and a n00b. If they didn't put a damage restriction on it, it'd be completely unbalanced and the death of 2H weapon jobs like Samurai.

"You don't have access to two different pools of weaponskills simultaneously? Gtfo."
"But I can proc!"
"So can the other guy, except he doesn't need to waste that precious 1-2 seconds switching weapons."
"But I have a Great Katana!"
"So do Ninjas."
"Mine do more damage!"
"So? We're trying to proc, not kill it."
"What about when it's time to kill it?"
"We have WAR for that, go level WAR!"

^ Sounds a lot like what things are like now, if they were even worse, if you ask me. Feeling strongly over this idea is because it's a hordecore troll thread intended to mock legitimate ideas and to spark idiotic arguments while he sits back and watches. That's irrelevant to the people agreeing with the bad idea though.

Not a threat to anything? Don't make me cry. (If you find this offensive, can't help it, the idea just looks blatantly stupid and troll-inspired if you ask me, if you don't see that, there's nothing I can do to change that nor will I try further than this.)

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lolz. you're almost rabid. Its not useless. I've already said its not a big deal. its a small thing, and it would be fun. It would not help alot and it doesn't matter if its not done.

you are grossly exaggerating the silly little argument about taking sam to a pug. This will happen already w/ our w/out WS from offhand.
offensive, no? ridiculous? yes :P

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If I had to decide between SE giving drgs the option to change wyvern colour, and the ability to ws with offhand weapon for 50% damage, I'd pick the first one.

This just screams lazy, lazy, lazy.

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It doesn't scream lazy. Did I say I switching weapons is too hard?

I agree choosing different wyvern colors would be better.

I don't care much about off-hand WS. I think its a decent idea. I just find the vehement protests silly and way over the top. It appears more so that hordecore has 2x admirers who are overzealous.

I don't recall the content of any of their posts beyond this thread, but that is certainly the impression this gives.

This idea is interesting, if unimpressive. I would think it would have faded before now.

Is it bad every time i read a post i lost my faith in humanity all over again?

I think it is.

That being said, to uh, I forgot, someone telling me to Aeolian Edge. I think Primal Rend puts out better numbers at 100%TP, especially considering its get the 'Ice" treatment (Atma of the Beyond has Light:Major as well), So its the better call when your only goal is Amber/fighting 1 mob. But as a THF, I'm aware how awesome Aeolian Edge can be. I've Aeolian burned a few times.

But i would just switch to a Knife rather than (The ops idea) use Aeolion from off-hand for 50% Damage :X

To Arcon: I'm done, Sorry, My hands hurt i don't want to type another wall of text, Though, I will say, If it only took 3 minutes to implement, I'd rather them let me change my Wyverns color >___> Like really, I want a Silver wynver.

Anyway, You know my Opinion, I know yours. We're starting to look like the Internet picture "INTERNET ARGUMENT" with the little child (me) and the Horse (you). SO we should stop while we're ahead.









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(And i'm clearly winning :D)

I don't think this will be implemented but does that make it a bad idea? Not to me. I know most people play with 18 person alliances filled with shouts and always have all the right jobs and play under perfect circumstances but not me.

I generally low man everything 2-4 members. Less competition for drops and I enjoy the lack of drama. When trying to KI farm I come Nin/war which can proc club, sword, katana, dagger (all one handed weapons) and Great Katana and Staff. With the ability to use sub ws's I could wield Katana/club then Dagger/sword while i look for hints. Sometimes it's a Great katana or staff proc which i get to last or heaven forbid something I do not have. These nm's are easy to kill so if I miss red I miss it but for one person to cycle threw all those ws's without a hint (which isn't 100%) can consume alot of hp.

Now when I am doing this I use Double attack and Tripple attack atmas with VV. So assuming a 10% tp loss on weapon change to me just seems retarded. By the time I open my window to change weapons I am between 20-50% tp depending if i have to cast shadows to live or if DA/TA kick in. That's 3 swaps at 20-50% tp lost that could be reduced to 1 swap if this idea was implemented. Your talking 60-150% tp wasted assuming I didn't lag out and miss the fact one of my ws's was dirty and then have to go back to try again once I do get the hint.

Aside from that example someone brought up the point of Killing hard shit like say Rani. Proc jobs sit on 100%+ tp waiting for hints. To find out I have 100% tp for the wrong weapon when it's one I could actually use sucks when I change weapons then try to find a tp mob. It still wouldn't be 100% I would have the right ws even with this fix but it'd increase the odds more.

Is this game breaking? No
Am I worried about getting this implemented? No
Do I understand why people are so much against this simple idea? Not at all

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That being said, to uh, I forgot, someone telling me to Aeolian Edge. I think Primal Rend puts out better numbers at 100%TP, especially considering its get the 'Ice" treatment (Atma of the Beyond has Light:Major as well), So its the better call when your only goal is Amber/fighting 1 mob. But as a THF, I'm aware how awesome Aeolian Edge can be. I've Aeolian burned a few times.

But i would just switch to a Knife rather than (The ops idea) use Aeolion from off-hand for 50% Damage :X

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I dunno, for building lights I've found it to be way more efficient to use AE over Rend on BST, then again I have Cloudsplitter now too, and it's not as bad as people have made out. If you have THF then yeah it's a non-issue and you can safely ignore everything I said.

Anyway...

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Those complaining that it would be useless are clueless. Would it be game changing? almost certainly not, but thats not useless. I gave a few examples in my initial post to the thread.
It probably is not a practical change, but it could be fun in a small way. I'm surprised at how strongly so many have felt over this idea. Its not a threat to anything.

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It basically would add needless clutter to the game which is probably going to be useful in all of about 0.0000001% of situations. So, technically you could find a use for it, but I feel it's one of the least useful possible things they could add to the game. Maybe not totally useless, but quite close to being utterly and profoundly without purpose. If it took them any time whatsoever to implement it, any positive would be outweighed by it being retardedly situational. Tenfold.

I'd be insulted that our money was wasted on something with so little practical application.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

I dunno, for building lights I've found it to be way more efficient to use AE over Rend on BST, then again I have Cloudsplitter now too, and it's not as bad as people have made out. If you have THF then yeah it's a non-issue and you can safely ignore everything I said.

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lol yah, THF90 and my favorite job. I remember it being slightly weaker than Primal Rend in general. Though theres a good chance i was gearing it wrong.

Either way, Both good options :P

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

lol yah, THF90 and my favorite job. I remember it being slightly weaker than Primal Rend in general. Though theres a good chance i was gearing it wrong.

Either way, Both good options :P

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they should make any job that can dual wield WS from offhand weapon

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Originally Posted by Hordecora

they should make any job that can dual wield WS from offhand weapon

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yes, but with reduced damage or else it is too overpowered

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Originally Posted by Hordecora

they should make any job that can dual wield WS from offhand weapon

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Originally Posted by hordecore

allow us to use ws from our off-hand weapons with reduced damage

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hordecora necrobumping an 8month old thread from hordecore....

I dont think this is possible simply because the animation for all 1handed weapon skills are executed with the weapon in the right hand and it would be tedious to go back and use up an additional 100+ weapon skill slots just to make inverted/mirrored animations for the left hand(rather than using these slots for new weapon skills in the future)

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

I dont think this is possible simply because the animation for all 1handed weapon skills are executed with the weapon in the right hand and it would be tedious to go back and use up an additional 100+ weapon skill slots just to make inverted/mirrored animations for the left hand(rather than using these slots for new weapon skills in the future)

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let the Dev make offhand weapon have seperate TP bar

and that should solve the problem

Tamoa plz stop harrasing Hardecore, becoose its painfully obvious... @OP i like ur idea and i hope Tanaka-san uses valuable resources to make this happen to please you.