Revamp Elemental Spells to Be More Logical and Realistic

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Originally Posted by blowfin

As a BST who`s used Yuly enough to know. I can tell you that the resist rate isn`t static on ladybugs. It`s elemental resist the same way we can stack it. Sometimes you`ll get tier V`s hitting for 30 damage, sometimes they`ll hit for 500. I don`t use the leech frequently enough to be able to say either way, but I suspect it works the same as Yuly. You`ll see the same kind of resistance on Funguars, just it`s dark instead.

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This is similar to my experience.

When nuking normal, low~ish level mobs against their strong element, resists do happen more often than usual. I don't recall the resist rates against low-to-normal level mobs, albeit a bit higher, even approaching the high resist rates experienced when nuking high-level NMs against their strong element (for example, thunder nukes against Dragua).

That's what happened though in Spring 2009. It wasn't limited to just enfeebling magic.

I've said before that the adjustment to magic resistances really does make sense, but I've also opined that this sort of common-sense adjustment came too late considering that FFXI was a matured MMO in 2009. By that point, players had invested too much time in their character and equipment for SE to make such a drastic chance to the magic system's mechanics and expect players to happily accept and adjust to such a change.

If SE had made such a change in 2003 (even into 2004), I think everything would have worked out alright.

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Originally Posted by SNK

He's not lying Rambus. He has no reason to either. There was a ninja-adjustment done & yes SE did ignore it until a huge mess of players called GMs and spammed them telling them it was fucked up. It wasn't until a little later that SE did ninja-fix it pretty quietly.

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To their credit, SE did publicly apologize for "the delay in both notifying players and correcting the [elemental resistance issue]." The glitch/adjustment entered the game on April 9th, and SE corrected the problem and apologized on April 23rd.

Has SE tried to ninja adjust anything major since the elemental resistance thing? I can't recall any big ninja adjustments since that one.

Oh, and I found the 4/23/2009 Update Notes:

Apr. 23, 2009 12:20 [PDT] From: FINAL FANTASY XI
FINAL FANTASY XI Update (Apr. 23)

A version update of FINAL FANTASY XI was performed at the following time.

[Date & Time]
Apr. 23, 2009 at 12:00 (PDT)

[Affected Services]
FINAL FANTASY XI

[Important Update Details]
The following issues have been addressed:

- There were cases where the elemental resistance of some monsters was not working properly.

- There were times when it was possible to use the Corsair job ability "Quick Draw" multiple times in a row regardless of the Charge number.

- The MP cost for a Summoner to keep an avatar available was less than intended with use of a certain item.

* Regarding the elemental resistance issue, we would like to take a moment and apologize for the delay in both notifying players and correcting the issue.

Source: {BG Thread - FINAL FANTASY XI Update (Apr. 23)}

He'll still not believe you even if posted proof like this. Rambus multiple people are telling you that this did happen and all of a sudden you're saying it's not?

brb Salvage bans never happened and everyone who got banned just magically decided to quit the game on the same day at the same excat time.

Well, I just nuked Gigas Leeches in Qufim and they all took ~half damage from Water from a 75 RDM.

Stone 1 did 52 damage, Water did 32 damage, Day bonus pushed it up to 34 for some reason (probably a floor effect)

Maybe not -50%, but close.

Okay, but why was day bonus for a 32 damage nuke only +2 damage?

Water II was 88 damage, for the record.

Edit: By the way, I knew stone was weaker. I was proving that water was reduced damage by comparing it to Stone instead of finding Gigas leech's INT and calculating both their damages.

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ladybugs are 50% wind.

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Lord Varney would like a word with you.

Hell I might even go and test this tonight just to prove it either way.

Wiki has the wind resist listed as 95%, which doesn't seem right either.

Just because you hard bad time with BG posters does not mean that the data and test ran by every poster that bother to to test is thrown out the window. By SE coming out out and saying sorry we goofed is more reason to suspect a nin-nerf. BG is full of a**hats and alla is full of retards but that does not mean that every single poster is wrong or a a**hat for posting there. Love to see what happens when the first dat minning threads show up here.

What I'd like to see is a BLM two-hour duration JA that increases all your nukes in-tier to equal the base power/MP cost/casting time and cooldown of the current strongest one available at your level(separating the single-targets and -gas, of course).

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

Just because you hard bad time with BG posters does not mean that the data and test ran by every poster that bother to to test is thrown out the window. By SE coming out out and saying sorry we goofed is more reason to suspect a nin-nerf. BG is full of a**hats and alla is full of retards but that does not mean that every single poster is wrong or a a**hat for posting there. Love to see what happens when the first dat minning threads show up here.

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what are you talking about? Kaeko who i know is very smart, did the emitiy thing. He publicly documented something that I have done 4 years ago. I hate posting theories because usually people dismiss them or rude to me. people may list good info on bg sometimes but it is hard to talk there a lot because of the elitism there. some people there are not immune to wrong information ether, I had a bit of time talking to someone on why helix base is 25 (same as aero I) but kept dismissing me because helix would always outdo aero I. they kept dismissing the fact that D-int caps a lot sooner on aero I vs helix.

I am not dismissing anything from BG put on here, if you read the past posts I was refuting eek's take on the Enfeebling Magic bug and refuting how she was using BG data wrongly to try to prove her point.

like now, I do not get why I am having such a hard time trying to proof something that should be seen as basic to people.

The way you post came off on BG may not be how you intended it then.

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

The way you post came off on BG may not be how you intended it then.

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well I have to say according to that post, that Kaeko disovered something about the game from the Enfeebling Magic bug. the update it self did not cause it (the only thing i would call "wrong" from the BG links preseneted to me), he just discovered something because of the bug.

maybe he started to play after i did, i do not know but ya i knew about it before he posted that, way before and was not caused by the bug. I even have past documentation to show I did, and that it did exist before the update. (in fact it happened so long ago with me being new to the itnerent I did not even know how to post pics back then, I stated so in that post)

I might even have the pics still from back then and ill try to dig them up if people are THAT interested.

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maybe that is someone's take of a chance of less then 50% ( i/e resist rates of getting 1/4 or 1/8 i am not sure)

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It's probably somebodies take after using Yuly as a pet, the two of us here stating that its not static arent the only ones thinking that way. Further information from wiki...

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I was fighting Lorelei earlier and Aero V hits Yuly for roughly 526 damage so unless Aero V from this NM can hit for 10k+ damage, I think Yuly wind resist is closer to 75%. --Kenki 17:28, March 1, 2011 (UTC)

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It can have 95% resists as I've seen it personally (spells doing 95% less), on a non resist Wind deals half damage/ 526 sounds like a half resist. --Sakuraryong 11:54, April 11, 2011 (UTC)

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So Yuly does really look like it has an extra layer of elemental resist on top of whatever native wind resistance it has.

I mean, for arguments sake, how often would you expect to see an elemental resist set kicking in as a level 40 when youre being nuked by a level 90 BLM (or a 75 RDM for that matter)? Not that I know a bunch about resist sets but Im guessing the answer is slim to none.

Really though, this isnt terribly important to the topic, this is just the curiosity as a BST coming out.

forgot ES too.

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/7128/elementdef.jpg

but ya pets have their rules for taking damage like how i hear bst pets have PDT above player cap and such.

I was really only talking about us vs mobs and max potential damage output on them

It's actually +0 for 1-9, +1 for 10-19, +2 for 20-29, and +3 for 30-39, etc.

So why is it 34 for day bonus off a halved 32 instead of 35?

64*1.1 = 70.4 (70)

70/2 = 35

So it must be 63 damage at least (less than a 50% reduction)

63*1.1 = 69.3 (69)
69/2 = 34.5 (34)

So I don't know. It's either not 50%, rounds up at some point, or there's some funniness about it.

I was naked on a 75 Hume RDM/BLM. No staff. Water II did 88 damage.

Ok im going to say it. The OP says make them more "realistic". This is a game. Do you go outside and rain fire and brimstone upon that field bunny you see in your backyard? Nope, didn't think so. But either way trying to revamp it this late in the game would be nigh near impossible for SE to undertake. They would have to revamp not only spells, but gear merits etc. and that is probably not going to happen at this stage in the game.

Erm...*ahem*

Well, I agree with the premise of the OP. The system for elemental spells is a bit odd because of the potency differences within the tiers. Adjusting that would be interesting, not to mention it would really play well with those merits that involve leaning towards one particular element. Would make it workable instead of this thing that was kinda tossed in for lolRP.

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Originally Posted by Henihhi

Ok im going to say it. The OP says make them more "realistic". This is a game. Do you go outside and rain fire and brimstone upon that field bunny you see in your backyard? Nope, didn't think so. But either way trying to revamp it this late in the game would be nigh near impossible for SE to undertake. They would have to revamp not only spells, but gear merits etc. and that is probably not going to happen at this stage in the game.

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I have Mandys in my back yard and I do throw stones at them. I think they're called children in RL though.

On Topic: Elemental WS are fine as they are. We'll want them somewhat buffed if the abyssea craze ever ends though.

LMAO! stone them to death! Nah but seriously, It just cracks me up when people say "make it realistic" cuz hell if i could shoot fire from my hands, i sure as hell wouldn't be playing a computer game.

Here are some figures for Yuly Vs. Varney. Keep in mind i'm operating with anything from 5% to 17% DT on top of the resists.

Aero V
735
688
90
73

Aeroga IV
710
100
87

The larger numbers are probably the "half" resist which appears to be built into Ladybugs, but we know about that. How do we explain the "95%" resists though? Would we see that kind of thing with a higher level ladybug? Should I go out and test it myself? Probably.

I'm going to have to wait to do these tests until the weekend, but I don't think I was at the dINT cap if we were both fighting Gigas Leeches (1.24*44/1.36 = 40, not 32). The RDM's INT should have been about 71.

That said, it doesn't matter that I wasn't at the dINT cap because weather bonus is applied after spell base damage is calculated.

1) FLOOR(Number / 2) has no decimal dropped if Number ends in an even number.
2) FLOOR(Number*1.1), where Number is 2 digits, is dependent entirely upon the first digit

So we have two operations, one of which depends on the first, and one of which depends on the second number. If the order of operations is 2 -> 1, then the first digit can indirectly affect the second digit, as long as the first digit is odd.

32 -> 34 couldn't result from that, though.

Okay, well after looking at it a bit more, I think we can approximate where specific monster resistance falls in that order.

We have three variables/floor steps from that equation and one starting value that's assumed to be a whole integer (the spell base damage):
MAB/MDB - 1.24, unknown if leeches have MDB
Day Bonus - 1.1 or 1.0
Monster Resistance modifier - Assumed to be 50%

There are 6 different orders that we can apply those in, and only one results in the 32 -> 34 trend.

The order is at least:
Monster specific Resist -> Day -> MAB

It's important to note that it's a separate step from "Resist" though, because you can obviously get 1/8 resists on monsters that take reduced damage from the element (as shown by nukes on Yuly.) So it's a term that doesn't exist on the wiki equation.

Well, read my last post again. The term is applied before Day/Weather Bonus. Do the math for yourself if you want:
Spell base damage: 52 or 53 (doesn't matter in any cases)
MAB: 1.24
Day Bonus: 1.1 or 1
Target Resistance: 50%

Every case except applying Resistance -> MAB -> Day bonus results in 32 without weather and 35 with.

Some monsters may also get a generic "Magic Damage Taken -%" trait, which could be applied last as the wiki page says. For instance, Wyrm all have Magic Damage -50%

I agree it would be nice for them to adjust this.
It works fine in FFXIV - where all spells are learned at the same time for that tier.
You don't have to change it like that, but perhaps they could add a new Trait to balance it out.
Like you start out at level 1 with all Tier 1 spells, but adjust the modifiers, then when you would have learned thunder give a new MAB trait putting them all on par with where Thunder is now.

Or heck just add a new trait where spells get stronger as you level on the same scale as so that your level 1 Stone spell does the same damage as Thunder when you learn it. Then elemental weaknesses will mean something.

Right now AM2s are the only spells that are even as they are all the same level and modifiers.

I did want to point out that Final Fantasy always had spells learned differently.
Look at FF3 for example, Thunder is Tier 3, Aero is Tier 2 (White Magic even), and Fire/Blizzard are Tier 1.

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

This is something I don't believe they can "fix" even if it's never made sense. Why? How would they accomodate every Black Mage that already has all of their spells? How will this be fair to the money and time they put into obtaining said spells only to have them massively downgraded and then need 6 extra tier sets to fix their black mages?

They could make these spells automatically learned upon leveling up but that wouldn't fix the "slap in the face" level 90 black mages would get after having to buy or farm their spells all these years. It would also piss off other jobs that would still have to. Especially Blue Mages. On top of this, they would need to rework how spells are obtained (i don't know how little or vastly time consuming this would be as I don't know how they have things coded).

I don't knock the common sense idea that it should've been this way from the start, I am merely pointing out that because it wasn't, it is highly unlikely that it can be now after all these years. You would think they would've fixed this major oversight years ago if they could have. They tried with potency merits but in the end, whatever your highest level spell is, thats where you put the potency, so it didn't work.

The only thing they can (and aren't) do now is to make the 90-99 spell tiers obtained at one specific level but that would break the chain. Though, I wouldn't personally care if they did.

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They wouldn't have to be downgraded. They'd just become available at lower levels and become stronger as you level up. So Water IV cast at Lv.90 will not lose any power. You'll just have stronger and stronger water spells. They'll just have to remove the cap on the damage those spells can do so they can grow beyond their relative weakness at the level earned. So it means that with Water XI, it might use a lot of MP, but it would be like having a nice 2-hour ability every time you have enough MP to pull it off. Water XI would be like for emergencies, and the price paid is having to spend time resting MP, but that's how real mages operate, anyway... Use the power you need and use what the necessity calls for, and when you're scared out of your mind. You know how in Lord of the Rings, a wizard can only use so much power, and then he has to rest. That would become the case with mages now under the vision I have of it.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Damage multipliers correlating to a mob's resistance stat would help with this damage offset (+1% for every -1). I'm also of the mind that it is too late to completely retrofit the nuke system. Either way, a good thunder on a thunder weak mob would still totally decimate a stone a similarly weak resist rate, but without knowing how SE truly handles resist mechanics for mobs, the above may very well be way too much.

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They should really set it up so that if you cast Thunder on a Lightning Elemental, it will RESTORE its hit points. If you cast POISON on a mob that thrives on poison, it will cause him to REGEN. That's also how it works in offline FF games. And imagine how easy it would be to skill up on a crab if Water spells cured it. Instead of always fishing a new crab (or whatever is skilled up on now), just keep restoring the HP of the one you have with a water spell.

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Originally Posted by Karinya_of_Carbuncle

...I would support a move to increase the difference between resist rates for different elements at high levels, if SE was inclined to do that, but I don't think the OP's proposal is necessary, or possibly even desirable. There are enough different nukes already and the fact that the tiers are really more like steps on a continuous scale is fine with me.

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Well, my way would make spells more predictable and you'd get a more noticeable and satisfying difference when using spells and skillchains you know your monster is weak to.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

GMs always say that, if SE posted something on official site i like to see it because dyna mobs most of them have no affiliation with darkness, if they did you would not be able to aspir them.

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Oh yes, aspir is another problem. Aspir rocks in offline Final Fantasy games. You can pull out a significant amount of MP from the monster, but it's relatively weak in FFXI. It would be fun to use a more powerful aspir to really get a good MP refill on your character, and it could be like a game with the monster, too, who might aspir it out of you again. I think it would be fun to see my MP rise and fall like the Babylon Empire.

Skillchain damage always appears to use the most magically accurate element these days, so you can approximate how much resistance they have relative to Ice (which we assume they don't resist) using Distortion skillchains and a water Obi with water day/weather.

If it always chooses Ice (you never see the day bonus) -> use Water Threnody and repeat
If you still always see Ice (no day bonus) -> Use Katon and Threnody and repeat

By giving yourself bonuses like that, you can determine approximately how much resistance to an element a monster has, or so the theory goes. Wyvern breaths from a 90 Dragoon also work, but it will choose the weakest element overall.

I'm only talking about magic evasion.

Level two skillchain = two elements of damage

If your target is neutral to one element and resists or absorbs the other element, the skillchain will do the neutral element 100% of the time.

If you use abilities or spells that reduce magic evasion of the "resistant" element, you can potentially overcome the extra magical evasion difference, and switch from one of the elements of a level two skillchain to the other.

You can test this using day bonuses and an appropriate Obi, because Obis force a day bonus onto skillchains 100% of the time of the damage is the appropriate element.

Here is the thread where we used these rules to approximate the priority order for skillchains:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/103...ental-Affinity

So wearing Hyorin Obi when closing Darkness skillchains isn't such a bad idea as long as your target isn't resistant to ice or weak to another of the darkness elements. You get an extra +10% damage to your skillchain.

I loled when he said ELEVEN tiers

I was pretty sure people knew this a while ago. I was confused when you quoted ffxiclopedia and it wasn't a part of their formulas, but ffxiclopedia lost the support of many of the testers in the community when they sold out to wikia.

Point is, -%MDT and the 50% elemental resistances shown in this thread and elsewhere are applied in different steps, meaning the wiki formula is likely missing a step between 1 and 5. I think I can limit it down to "between 1 and 4" if I buy a water staff and go nuke a gigas leech on non-day again with 71 INT on a 75 Hume RDM/BLM.

Similarly, Staff bonus and the new "Affinity" terms are separate and not shown in the wiki page. It's just incomplete.

I honestly can't understand what you post.

The thread I linked was about the elemental order skillchains default to, and we developed a technique in it that can be used to roughly approximate target elemental resistance (elemental Magic Evasion). I linked it because you were complaining (I think) about not having a way to calculate target elemental resistance (elemental Magic Evasion) and decouple it from elemental damage resistance (like Water Damage-50%).

I don't know if your fire staff started working again. I mostly focused on the Dark skillchain side of things, because that's the easiest for me to make as Dancer and I had a lot of the Obis already.

There was a patch many moons ago where SE patched skillchain damage to be "more accurate" without giving any description as to how. My theory is that they made it default to the lowest resistance element. It obviously doesn't just default to the highest damage element, as wearing an Anrin Obi on Darksday and making Darkness on a neutral monster doesn't result in 110% damage every time.

If you cast Dark Threnody on the same neutral monster on Darksday and make Dark skillchain with Anrin Obi on, you get the day bonus 100% of the time. This indicates to me that it's dependent on some elemental magic evasion check.

I've attempted to understand what you're typing, but it isn't coherent and I don't sense that the information content is high enough that I should bother to sort out what you're saying. There are plenty of smart people around that can write coherently, so I'd prefer to talk to them about the same issues. If you want to be understood, write in a way that's understandable. I'd like to include you in debates on magic stuff, because you seem to be perfectly willing to do testing and have some grasp of the equations, but if you can't communicate with your peers then it isn't worth the effort.

I really wished there was a PM feture, but if i am only going to be used as a joke target on BG I am not giving information anymore, this is why I hate doing it in the first place, like I said what you are talking about on there i knew 4-7 years ago, I just did not know how to get it out there without being attacked.

SC threads > no one cares
damage threads> you are wrong sorcs mitts are 7 mab , etc etc

I am not understood if people are not lazy. it is numbers it is not hard.

still though it looks like the stuff we talked about is pushing them into a direction that i am sure i will not get credit for so w/e, dont care anymore.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

I really wished there was a PM feture, but if i am only going to be used as a joke target on BG I am not giving information anymore, this is why I hate doing it in the first place, like I said what you are talking about on there i knew 4-7 years ago, I just did not know how to get it out there without being attacked.

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Have you ever thought that's it's strange that a lot of people seem to be targetting you so much? The only reason people on BG, Alla, and FFXIAH attack you so much is because you've asked for it.

No really you do keep asking for it. >_>

A lot of the time people target you is because you're either spreading misinformation or you're completely wrong about something a lot of the time. Even when you're proven wrong you still hold to your guns and won't back down and give anyone credit for telling you how it is.

If you'd just relax and stop crying about stuff *I.e. hitting the Report Post Button*, you might realize that maybe, just maybe you might not be right all the time like you feel you are.

This is about as harsh as I can be about this but a huge majority of drama stirred up here is either because of posts by you, Starcade or a few others that just end up making all of you easy targets when you can't back down when you've been proven wrong. :(

Not that I want to defend Rambus, but there was a lot of stuff he posted on KI years ago that I thought would be common sense by now, but has only become accepted lately. His meddling and attempts at social engineering make him hard to deal with, but for the most part his math is spot on. He's like the anti-pchan... one is completely left, the other completely right.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

Not that I want to defend Rambus, but there was a lot of stuff he posted on KI years ago that I thought would be common sense by now, but has only become accepted lately. His meddling and attempts at social engineering make him hard to deal with, but for the most part his math is spot on. He's like the anti-pchan... one is completely left, the other completely right.

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I had orders wrong but I have no one to bounce ideas from. Because of that i never perused them due to lack of caring. I knew it was possible to find the orders for them due to the drop decimals. you can say i had the foundations built for a lot of things but never got to finish.

I have discovered how MB bonus of AM II work, other MB bonuses like sorcs hands, AM II base, V spells (stone V, and Tim for them), helix, the 50% def in mobs, and sc theories before anyone else though. (to my knowledge, and the postings on BG seem to reinforce this, i made V spell threads before it was put on wiki). I even went on BG myself once to correct how helix worked. (though i was wrong about some aspects in how DoT works of helix after update)

I even tried to state such things on alla/ ki after I discovered them ( like the 50% damage in mobs on 2005 on alla, to see someone link me been first documented in 2009 in bg)

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Originally Posted by Rambus

I even tried to state such things on alla/ ki after I discovered them ( like the 50% damage in mobs on 2005 on alla, to see someone link me been first documented in 2009 in bg)

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This wasn't the first documentation. This was someone's mage mule showing that 50% resists on damage were now a 50% decrease in duration, and then a bunch of people going, "Holy shit, damage is reduced by 50% all the time!" because they didn't know how nuking works.

Any serious mage knew about the 50% species damage reduction a long time before 2009, just as you did.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

This wasn't the first documentation. This was someone's mage mule showing that 50% resists on damage were now a 50% decrease in duration, and then a bunch of people going, "Holy shit, damage is reduced by 50% all the time!" because they didn't know how nuking works.

Any serious mage knew about the 50% species damage reduction a long time before 2009, just as you did.

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eeek linked me one of the most serous mags i know of. Eeek would not of been auguring with me if it was that well known. in fact Kaeko was the person that corrected me on the helix dot after update.

what about you? "i do not think it is 50% exactly because i get 32 and 34 on a mob"

I told you it was from order of operation situation, hence wiki quote, then you started on skillchains.

I do not know if you where trying to "test" me or what...