Question about Treasure Hunter, Aurix and Dynamis Divergence!

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Hi SE,
Could you maybe throw me a bone here? Does Volte Body armor from Dynamis (D) zones drop when the wave 2 boss is killed in the first 30 minutes of a run? ...or is the drop rate the same no matter when the wave 2 boss is engaged / killed? I'm trying to decide if I should turn my Volte farming runs into Wave 3 runs, by choosing to kill the Wave 2 boss earlier (or stay the same and just try to farm Volte pieces from all the Wave 2 NMs).

Thanks!

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I've never heard of a case where drops from a monster vary by the time elapsed. I don't think you should jump through any hoops for a drop rate increase that most likely does not exist.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I've never heard of a case where drops from a monster vary by the time elapsed. I don't think you should jump through any hoops for a drop rate increase that most likely does not exist.

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Sure, I understand you. However, the implementation that we perceive does not have to be inherently fair...at all. In fact, anecdotally, I have witnessed more people get Volte body armor drops from Wave 2 Bosses when attempting a Wave 3 run (i.e. the Wave 2 boss is killed much earlier in the run). Hence, why I posed the question to SE here: do wave 2 bosses give better drop rates on Volte body armor if they're killed earlier in the run vs later on?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I've never heard of a case where drops from a monster vary by the time elapsed. I don't think you should jump through any hoops for a drop rate increase that most likely does not exist.

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As far as I am concerned, nothing say that windows of time cannot be part of drop rate equation *including Treasure Hunter and battles difficulty level* I think Gwydion question is decent.

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Originally Posted by Ruf

As far as I am concerned, nothing say that windows of time cannot be part of drop rate equation *including Treasure Hunter and battles difficulty level* I think Gwydion question is decent.

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I mean, after much badgering, SE gave us the exact drop rate tables they use across all content. This is just another Crafting Compass or other stupid fabricated myth (SE also later told us direction doesn't matter for crafting)

Believe in superstitions if you want, but without data, all you have is that- a superstition. Ancedotal evidence is not evidence. You need to keep track. But what you're postulating makes no sense at best- If there were external factors that affected drop rate, they would have to be things you do before defeating a boss, yet you're suggesting that things you do after matter, which makes no sense. The game doesn't know whether you're going to attempt to do the wave 3 boss or not, so there's no way to make a special condition for that in the first place, other than a timer, which would be unprecedented as that's never been done before as far as I'm aware.

Do it at least 100 times under each set of conditions then we'll talk. His question is not decent. It's dubious at best, based on "I've seen this a few times" and "I want to believe it".

100times is a huge sample for divergence.

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Originally Posted by Ruf

Im not even sure what dubious mean but, 100times is a huge sample AND who tell you I believe half the things said by squeenix? :p

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Dubious

adjective

doubtful; marked by or occasioning doubt: a dubious reply.
of doubtful quality or propriety; questionable: a dubious compliment; a dubious transaction.
of uncertain outcome: in dubious battle.
wavering or hesitating in opinion; inclined to doubt.

100 times is actually a very small sample size. It's not my fault it takes a long time

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I mean, after much badgering, SE gave us the exact drop rate tables they use across all content. This is just another Crafting Compass or other stupid fabricated myth (SE also later told us direction doesn't matter for crafting)

Believe in superstitions if you want, but without data, all you have is that- a superstition. Ancedotal evidence is not evidence. You need to keep track. But what you're postulating makes no sense at best- If there were external factors that affected drop rate, they would have to be things you do before defeating a boss, yet you're suggesting that things you do after matter, which makes no sense. The game doesn't know whether you're going to attempt to do the wave 3 boss or not, so there's no way to make a special condition for that in the first place, other than a timer, which would be unprecedented as that's never been done before as far as I'm aware.

Do it at least 100 times under each set of conditions then we'll talk. His question is not decent. It's dubious at best, based on "I've seen this a few times" and "I want to believe it".

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I think you misunderstand. I am stating anecdotally, that I have witnessed more Volte bodies drop from Wave 2 Bosses being defeated in the first 30 minutes of a run (intended as a Wave 3 run) vs other runs, where farming occurs in Wave1/2 (and as a result Wave 2 Boss is killed in the last 30 minutes of a run). I've personally killed this Windy Wave 2 boss over 100 times over the last 3 years and never saw the body drop when Fii Pexu was killed at the end of run (having spent more than an hour in the zone). Meanwhile other friends have entered, killed the wave 2 boss immediately, with little to no TH, and still got the body to drop on a few occasions.

So I am postulating to SE the following question: Does a Volte body drop more frequently if the Wave 2 boss is killed earlier in the run vs later in the run?

Also, to Alhanaelem's assertion, there ARE at least one or two Salvage NMs whose spawn conditions occur if you reached a certain floor within 45 minutes, etc. (Therefore it's not entirely out of the question for a Wave 2 boss to have different drops rates depending how early or late he is killed in a run).

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Dubious

adjective

doubtful; marked by or occasioning doubt: a dubious reply.
of doubtful quality or propriety; questionable: a dubious compliment; a dubious transaction.
of uncertain outcome: in dubious battle.
wavering or hesitating in opinion; inclined to doubt.

100 times is actually a very small sample size. It's not my fault it takes a long time

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1/365days~

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I mean, after much badgering, SE gave us the exact drop rate tables they use across all content. This is just another Crafting Compass or other stupid fabricated myth (SE also later told us direction doesn't matter for crafting)

Believe in superstitions if you want

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Some of them end up being true.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Also, to Alhanaelem's assertion, there ARE at least one or two Salvage NMs whose spawn conditions occur if you reached a certain floor within 45 minutes, etc. (Therefore it's not entirely out of the question for a Wave 2 boss to have different drops rates depending how early or late he is killed in a run).

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Spawn conditions != Drop rates. The monsters have the same drop rates every time.

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Originally Posted by Ruf

Also, Ddadadang!

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Again, spawn conditions are not drop rates.

I'm fully aware of such spawn conditions and they exist all over the game. Show me a monster whose drop rates change based on time elapsed of the content said monster belongs to.

You can not eyeball a handful of monster drops and invent a pattern that does not exist.

You can flip a coin 100 times and get 60 heads in a row, that doesn't mean that coins land on heads more than tails.

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Originally Posted by Ruf

The point is that its based on a timer which most of the game is based upon so it does not exclude drop rates. Excluding it as a possibility is like believing that "some corporation" arnt making programmed obsolescence and that every rose is red or pink... make it drink black ink and youll get a whole different vision. This game is based on mathematics fundamentally out of game play more than some other games so, internally who know, going by your logic, easter eggs do not exist.

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No, you're asserting that it's based on a timer, which is an unproven theory, not a fact. A theory based on a small amount of anecdotal "evidence" which is well, well within margin of error.

The rest of your post isn't even worth a response, just a bunch of radical assumptions and irrational logic. Where in the world did I suggest or imply "easter eggs don't exist? There is no way you could extrapolate that logic from my post.

IE: (HTB)

Items droprate can be enhanced with treasure hunter while difficulty lvl also increase%.

Why could it not have more variables to it?

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Originally Posted by Ruf

I did not say it is but im saying that it could be

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THe possibility that it could be is so remote that it may as well be zero.

Again, collect data and we can talk. I'm sick of these conspiracy theories.

You can not infer a pattern based on a handful of eyeballed results.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

THe possibility that it could be is so remote that it may as well be zero.

Again, collect data and we can talk. I'm sick of these conspiracy theories.

You can not infer a pattern based on a handful of eyeballed results.

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I believe in the 1%.

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Originally Posted by Ruf

I just said that I believe in the 1% and then you tell me 0? You dont believe in 1% gotcha.

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You can think whatever you want, but thoughts are not facts.

But thanks for essentially admitting how unlikely this theory is to be true.

You are welcome, Good night!

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

I think you misunderstand. I am stating anecdotally, that I have witnessed more Volte bodies drop from Wave 2 Bosses being defeated in the first 30 minutes of a run (intended as a Wave 3 run) vs other runs, where farming occurs in Wave1/2 (and as a result Wave 2 Boss is killed in the last 30 minutes of a run). I've personally killed this Windy Wave 2 boss over 100 times over the last 3 years and never saw the body drop when Fii Pexu was killed at the end of run (having spent more than an hour in the zone). Meanwhile other friends have entered, killed the wave 2 boss immediately, with little to no TH, and still got the body to drop on a few occasions.

So I am postulating to SE the following question: Does a Volte body drop more frequently if the Wave 2 boss is killed earlier in the run vs later in the run?

Also, to Alhanaelem's assertion, there ARE at least one or two Salvage NMs whose spawn conditions occur if you reached a certain floor within 45 minutes, etc. (Therefore it's not entirely out of the question for a Wave 2 boss to have different drops rates depending how early or late he is killed in a run).

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Bumping in the hopes of hearing from SE. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Bumping in the hopes of hearing from SE. Thanks.

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They don't respond to thread bumps. Add something meaningful to the thread or leave it be.

I'm just going to tell you right now straight up it doesn't, and let you keep concocting conspiracy theories.
You have no evidence that this even *could* be a thing and niether does anyone else. Your conditions for it are also completely arbitrary and have no basis in logic. The community team has better things to do than get every wild conspiarcy theory proven or disproven.

I want SE to prove to the world that refresh can't drop from a Taisai. It's never happened, but you can't prove that something never will happen!

Please stop with the inflammatory speech, Alhanelem. My question (and request) is reasonable.

If SE can confirm a change in drop-rate for Volte bodies early or late in the run, I can choose whether to farm Wave 1/2 or kill the wave 2 boss early and farm Wave 3. It's a fair request, give the 60-hour lockout and rarity of the volte body armor.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Please stop with the inflammatory speech, Alhanelem. My question (and request) is reasonable.

If SE can confirm a change in drop-rate for Volte bodies early or late in the run, I can choose whether to farm Wave 1/2 or kill the wave 2 boss early and farm Wave 3. It's a fair request, give the 60-hour lockout and rarity of the volte body armor.

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It really isn't, you just want to believe in a fantasy that doesn't exist. You simply do not have enough evidence to even infer that a pattern exists. Even Cid's teeth is more deserving of an official response. Again, this is like the crafting compass all over again. When special conditions exist, generally they say that special conditions exist, even if they don't state explicitly what they are.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

So I am postulating to SE the following question: Does a Volte body drop more frequently if the Wave 2 boss is killed earlier in the run vs later in the run?

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Sicycre or any other GM staff,
Could you please take a moment to let us know if there are any special conditions that can change the drop rate of Volte body armor from Wave 2 NMs? After that, please lock this thread as Sicycre has gone above and beyond to help players understand this mechanic in Dynamis Divergence.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Sicycre or any other GM staff,
Could you please take a moment to let us know if there are any special conditions that can change the drop rate of Volte body armor from Wave 2 NMs? After that, please lock this thread as Sicycre has gone above and beyond to help players understand this mechanic in Dynamis Divergence.

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Sicycre, please understand that this use of the word "we" does not represent the community at large.

Beyond that, i 100% agree with locking this thread, as there has been no actual honest discussion taking place.


(Sucking up to the boss ain't gonna work lol)

Bumpity bump bump.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

So I am postulating to SE the following question: Does a Volte body drop more frequently if the Wave 2 boss is killed earlier in the run vs later in the run?

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Bumpity bump bump.

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Doesn't workity work work.

Which you should have learned from the beaten-to-death "I wanna take all my gil out at once from the dbox" threads.

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Originally Posted by Emdub

Greetings!

Thank you for taking the time to leave your feedback on our forums! We always like seeing player feedback and we can understand why you want such a feature implemented. Although we can appreciate the dedication you have towards your request, it has already received a direct reply, therefore, we will be closing this thread at this time.

We understand this decision might be a frustrating one, and we apologize for any inconvenience.

Thank you for your understanding!

-=Senior Game Master Emdub=-

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This thread has already recieved a direct reply. So the same thing will happen if this continues. But hey, don't let me stop you.


https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/55340-Take-all-delivery-box?p=623851&viewfull=1#post623851

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Doesn't workity work work.

Which you should have learned from the beaten-to-death "I wanna take all my gil out at once from the dbox" threads.



This thread has already recieved a direct reply. So the same thing will happen if this continues. But hey, don't let me stop you.


https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/55340-Take-all-delivery-box?p=623851&viewfull=1#post623851

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I think you once again, hit the Reply button without really developing an understanding of what's going on. This thread has already received two direct replies and if they choose to answer one of my follow up questions, I would be extremely grateful, but please don't imply or insinuate that needlessly spamming. It's a decent question.

Amazingly enough, I was able to get the volte body to drop earlier today, but if my questions help other people in planning how to divide their limited Dynamis Divergence farming time, then it shouldn't be something for you to get in the way of.

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I think you once again, hit the Reply button without really developing an understanding of what's going on.

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What you think is happening, and what is actually happening, are not always the same thing, and I find your comment insulting.

If you keep bumping the thread, it's going to get locked. That's my point. Because the GM didn't post in the cited thread until after all the bumping took place.

I'm just really sick of people thinking they see patterns in RNG that don't exist. Take SR for instance, you'll have people swearing that one or another of the three bosses will drop the reward doodad and the other one(s) won't or will drop them less. When the reality is they all have the same low drop rate and somebody just got lucky (or unlucky) and thinks they saw a pattern when they didn't. Just because you flipped a coin 100 times and got 60 heads doesn't mean the coin is rigged to land heads more.

That's what's going on here, no more, and no less. Get it out of your head that there's special drop rates based on whether you do a full run or not. There isn't. For every claim like yours, there will be someone who's had the opposite experience.

Back when Dynamis was new I must have done like 50 Dynamis-Xarcabards before I got the summoner's horn. If it was you doing those runs, you'd be questioning if there's some special drop rule for each peice of gear. But the linkshell that ran before us got like 10 summoner's horns in the same time span, and got hardly any of <some other item somebody wanted>.

This is one of those situations. Period. You want to disagree? Do it more times and collect more data and prove a pattern. Your data right now is "me and a friend (or something like th at) saw a couple drops this way and not that way.") That's not data. And whenever someone makes a dubious claim like that without data, I'm there to question it because the community needs reliable information, not conspiracy theories.

Sorry I have read the entire thread, and the information on BG. It is CLEAR to me that your initial hit applies a maximum of TH 8, however is there any benefit to having more than TH8 when trying to upgrade to higher TH values ? does it help ?

BG claims it compares your current TH tot he monsters present TH level which would lead you to believe having higher than TH8 can help.

but in both spots are times it lists TH 8 as the "cap"

There has been no evidence to suggest that equipping any TH past 8 (TH3 trait + 5 in gear) does anything.

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Originally Posted by Delgear

Sorry I have read the entire thread, and the information on BG. It is CLEAR to me that your initial hit applies a maximum of TH 8, however is there any benefit to having more than TH8 when trying to upgrade to higher TH values ? does it help ?

BG claims it compares your current TH tot he monsters present TH level which would lead you to believe having higher than TH8 can help.

but in both spots are times it lists TH 8 as the "cap"

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I originally replied to this topic in a thread where Community Rep Camate explain "TH rate of decay" to us back in 2012. Please read here:

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Combining everyone's input and converting Camate's words with sample data, I've constructed the following tables that I believe illustrate his point.

Assumptions:

1. Base TH Proc Rate is X. (Yellow)
2. Base TH Proc Rate never changes for a positive TH difference between player and monster.
3. Base TH Proc Rate shrinks when TH difference between player and mob is negative.
4. I have assumed a 10% shrinkage (rate of decay) for TH procs below just for illustration purposes.

Thank you for so much in advance, even for just reading.

https://i.imgur.com/0z5iy85.png

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There is still current debate in the community and I'll explain where Catmato and myself diverge.

Confirmed: SE has told us that the TH proc rate starts out at some percentage X, and each subsequent TH proc reduces the chance of another TH proc occurring. In other words, every subsequent TH proc, decreases the chance of another TH proc occurring. (This means wearing more TH than the current TH proc level, will keep your proc rate constant/from diminishing). You can see in the chart I posted how this is supposed to work.

Opinion #1: The opinion expressed by Catmato is referring to a test performed by FFXI player Thorny here: https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/5...-14/7/#3688687. His testing implies that wearing TH+8 and TH+15 respectively, did not meaningfully show any difference in TH proc rates from TH8->9 or 9->10 or 11->12, so on, and so forth. For people who believe Thorny's sample size to be large enough, they take this statement as gospel and simply stop wearing more than TH+8 (+5 in gear as Catmato) said.

https://i.imgur.com/24UnLqP.png/
https://i.imgur.com/asQCwWk.png

Opinion #2: As you can see in Thorny's data above, we only have ~97 TH10 procs in 9970 hits, 37 TH11 procs and 19 TH12 procs. If these proc rates are meant to be independent rates (because they decay after all), the proc rate's sample size is too small. We would need x10 or x100 more procs to even say with confidence that proc rate has decayed a meager amount like, say 2% for each subsequent TH proc. In my original reply, you can see that I chose a number like 10% decay, but that would have shown up in Thorny's data).

Reality/Conclusion: These are the two schools of thought with respect to TH proc'ing. As players, we test everything because there have been translation and configuration errors in the past. But, we also have fun unlocking FFXI's mysteries! Do whichever method you prefer. Have fun doing it!

This is where SE can help us: Please simply tell us if TH proc rate decays for all levels of TH and if Camate's 2012 reply applies to all TH1-14. (Bonus: Does Hoxne Ring reduce this rate of decay? Is the "increase by 5%" applied additively or multiplicatively? The item description isn't clear).

If a GM replies with "YES" to this thread, then we should have TH9 when we proc TH9 and TH10 when we proc TH+10, TH11 when we proc TH11, and so on, to mitigate the rate of decay as Camate said in 2012.

I don't take it as gospel. I take the statements from SE themselves being backed up the testing in that BG thread to be good enough evidence. On top of that, with the difference between TH4 and TH8 alone being negligible, severely gimping DPS by slowly meleeing in TH+20 gear trying to upgrade it even farther is not worth anybody's time.

Catmato, my response wasn't meant towards you specifically. My bad, I didn't mean for it to come across as that way! ....I don't want to debate what is worthy of anyone's time. (We play an MMORPG, which in and of itself, is very time-consuming!).

However, SE did give us this chart below. Your are right to say that TH4 vs TH8 in many cases doesn't matter that much, at least when a precious Party Slot in 6-man content is conerned! I can see why people may argue that even bring a thief at all, and tat TH might be a waste of time. Now, TH4 vs TH8 does pick up for items that are Rare to Ultra Rare ...but if we compare TH8 vs TH14 in a given situation, I think we probably decided to bring a Thief, if an event has comparing those levels of TH.

https://i.imgur.com/9lvTmrg.png

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

too long, not quoting, scroll up to read the rest.

Reality/Conclusion: These are the two schools of thought with respect to TH proc'ing. As players, we test everything because there have been translation and configuration errors in the past. But, we also have fun unlocking FFXI's mysteries! Do whichever method you prefer. Have fun doing it!

This is where SE can help us: Please simply tell us if TH proc rate decays for all levels of TH and if Camate's 2012 reply applies to all TH1-14. (Bonus: Does Hoxne Ring reduce this rate of decay? Is the "increase by 5%" applied additively or multiplicatively? The item description isn't clear).

If a GM replies with "YES" to this thread, then we should have TH9 when we proc TH9 and TH10 when we proc TH+10, TH11 when we proc TH11, and so on, to mitigate the rate of decay as Camate said in 2012.

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As for Hoxne Ring. It's additive with Gifts, and the gifts are multiplicative with base upgrade rates. If not, then we would see a far larger change in upgrade rate which would be obvious and would have made that ring sell on AH 10x or more it's current prices.

I don't take Thorny's test as gospel either. I take it as our best testing to date regarding the argument and would challenge anyone who wants to prove him wrong to do a similar, larger test themselves.

Sigh why are you guys ressurecting this again....

The devs/community team haven't replied to anything here in a very long time, you're living in a fantasy if you think you're ever going to get a confirmation or denial of anything.

I dunno why gwyd fusses over this so much. More TH is always better than less, I don't see how any confirmation or denial of any of this would change the way you use THF in any activity.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Catmato, my response wasn't meant towards you specifically. My bad, I didn't mean for it to come across as that way! ....I don't want to debate what is worthy of anyone's time. (We play an MMORPG, which in and of itself, is very time-consuming!).

However, SE did give us this chart below. Your are right to say that TH4 vs TH8 in many cases doesn't matter that much, at least when a precious Party Slot in 6-man content is conerned! I can see why people may argue that even bring a thief at all, and tat TH might be a waste of time. Now, TH4 vs TH8 does pick up for items that are Rare to Ultra Rare ...but if we compare TH8 vs TH14 in a given situation, I think we probably decided to bring a Thief, if an event has comparing those levels of TH.

https://i.imgur.com/9lvTmrg.png

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Sigh why are you guys ressurecting this again....

The devs/community team haven't replied to anything here in a very long time, you're living in a fantasy if you think you're ever going to get a confirmation or denial of anything.

I dunno why gwyd fusses over this so much. More TH is always better than less, I don't see how any confirmation or denial of any of this would change the way you use THF in any activity.

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Clearly, there are people who don't think "More TH is better" and stop at TH8.

I stop at TH4. I can kill at least 2x as fast on BLU and I single-box, so I won't have a pocket alt to TH things for me.
Already have nearly all the HTMB drops that are useful so that is no longer a concern either.

If I did have a pocket thief, I would probably empy+3 feet + hoxne ring only. even if TH has a rolling cap at current rank, that let's me TH up to 11 before I would see a difference and the likelihood of a mob surviving long enough for that to reduce my TH from upgrading further would still be minimal.

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Clearly, there are people who don't think "More TH is better" and stop at TH8.

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People stop at TH8 because that's the furhtest you can go with gear, this isn't anything new and has been long established. But the rarer the drop category, the more impact TH has mathematically, going from a ~3x drop rate increase for common with maximum TH to a 15x better drop rate for ultra rare.

This whole debate is over something else, which again, I don't see how knowledge of what happens changes whether or not you bring THF and/or how you actually end up using it.

Though for less rare drops, sure, you don't need to bend over as hard to still get something in a reasonable timeframe. Subbing THF on any job allows up to TH4 today and you still get a meaningful increase with that.

Bring a RNG for Bounty Shot. I actually got up to TH5 the other day.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

However, SE did give us this chart below. Your are right to say that TH4 vs TH8 in many cases doesn't matter that much, at least when a precious Party Slot in 6-man content is conerned! I can see why people may argue that even bring a thief at all, and tat TH might be a waste of time. Now, TH4 vs TH8 does pick up for items that are Rare to Ultra Rare ...but if we compare TH8 vs TH14 in a given situation, I think we probably decided to bring a Thief, if an event has comparing those levels of TH.

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This is a legit question, not trolling or meant to be combative: What content that's relevant today actually relies on drops from TH? Is that content really worth trying to cap TH in a single fight vs just running the same thing twice at TH8-10 (or whatever upgrades just happen)?