Game/Job balance suggestions

I don't think GEO needs a nerf, I think Bard desperately needs a buff, cor does and frankly, I don't--and never have--played Red Mage. I can't say what the job needs, but I find it difficult to believe that the job is fine with the representation being so abysmal.

Like I've said before, the problem is that different RDMs want RDM to be buffed in different areas (healing, buffing, nuking, debuffing, melee, tankability) and some people want it to be a master of everything. Outside of the rare exception, noone seriously asks for PLD or WHM's offensive ability to be buffed, even though these are aspects of the job.

And like I said before, the problem with RDM is that broad buffs increase its capacity in everything, at little/no performance cost. An rdm/drk can melee at the frontline, buff, debuff, and jump to the backline simply by switching to a different macro set.

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]As far as your other argument:
Put bluntly, you don't wait for two hours shouting for a BLM when you need another nuker, you invite the RDM that's geared for it. You don't wait four hours for your second Geomancer, you bring your Red Mage along. A well geared Red Mage is the ultimate 'filler' job when all you REALLY need, is a warm body.

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I'll be honest: In the six months I've been back, I've played with two real red mages. I don't try to avoid them either, it's that the representation is that bad (at least on lowpop Valefor). Yes, I absolutely prefer an SCH or BLM over a red mage but I know the basic gear they have access to and know they should be capable nukers and while their debuffs are not necessary, they are useful.

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And for the Melee not being a part of your strategy, that's a gameplay issue, again, not a Red Mage issue. Stand Alone, Red Mage is in a very powerful place right now. It just happens to be in a spot outside the current meta. There's no real reason to gimick our way back into it. Just fix the problems plaguing the game as a whole, and dedicated Red Mages will find their way into groups, usually by association.

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On this, we agree completely. Unless the boss is magic-resistant to a large degree, it's just easier/safer/smarter/faster to bring mages most of the time, whatever the color.

Bringing a RDM is something you do when you already have your bases covered. Adding a 2nd GEO is almost always better than adding your 1st RDM. You might even bring a 3rd GEO. You don't really need Dia3 if you have a COR. Frazzle3 and Distract3 are nice but are almost always luxuries.

Also, no I wouldn't settle for a RDM if I needed a BLM. I'd argue that the RDM should consider leveling and JPing BLM as well for when the situation calls for it rather than forcing an oval peg into a circular hole.

Anyway Hyrist, you're espousing Inundation quite a bit, do you mind explaining how it works? What is the bonus? What is the recast? Is it hard to land? Is it practical to use?

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Originally Posted by detlef

Anyway Hyrist, you're espousing Inundation quite a bit, do you mind explaining how it works? What is the bonus? What is the recast? Is it hard to land? Is it practical to use?

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Put simply, it is a stacking form of Skillchain bonus that breaks the 30% Cap classes like Dancer has (The spell itself starts at 50% with 2 different weapon types in rotation.) and grows exponentially as you stack Skillchains. This multiplies with elemental weakness modifiers and Skillchain Damage bonuses.

Exact numbers on this thing is difficult because it seems to have multiple factors working with the damage. Some say it's static 50% but I've hit four-times damage on a 3 step skillchain with it reliably using trusts (double light). It defiantly needs more testing to verify, but the damage contribution on it is huge so long as you have your Melees actually working together instead of just WS spamming.

The benefit for this is twofold as teaming up skillchains builds skillchain damage, stacks with Innundation's growth and keeps magic burst windows open longer. The crux is the danger Melee suffers on higher tier mobs and the fact that MBs are still subject to resists and magic damage reduction (Frazzle however does help.), but I don't see how this would conflict with say, a Summoner/Samurai rotation like in the ToAU era. I haven't been able to test if it works on Scholar Skillchains yet (will be pulling a scholar for this testing soon.)

Oh, and the spell is unresitable. It lands as reliably as Dia or Bio, and I believe it has a 3 minute base duration. Things I will have to time and verify as I continue testing - however I am amazed that this spell has gone overlooked for so long. I'm guessing it's due to the BLU/No Melee Meta. The stacking bonus seems to rely upon differing weapon types.

Small link to FFXIAH thread showing a screenshot of stacked damage. http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/46...spell/#3042612

EDIT:

Ok, some spit-balling math on this from playing around with it seems that the base bonus is 50% multiplicative (x1.5), each step in a skillchain adds another 50% to the calculation. The problem is I'm trying to figure out where in the overall calculation this fits as other skillchain bonuses.

Click the spoiler below if you want to read some really rough math brainstorming.

For example, taking the screenshot I referenced above. It is a 3 Step Skillchain , giving a Theoretical Inundation value of 2.0, multiplied by the base value of a three WS Double Darkness (1.75) Which would put it at 3.5. This would work with the calculations I've been figuring out IF elemental weakness on Cailmh factors as a straight additive 1. This would bring it close to the approximate 4.6 skill-chain value ( ~.1 off ). I've seen similar numbers come out of Apex mobs, factoring for a .30 additive skill-chain damage up

Obviously this is a very rough theory that needs much more testing. I'll be working on getting more specifics once I figure out some of the factors that cause these larger damage spikes. The simple theory of 50% flat skillchain damage doesn't add up to some of these high numbers we're seeing.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Yes, it does stack, but when you're comparing -15% defense down vs -30%, the choice is obvious (when you're considering one job or the other) and since Dia II is -10%, it's really a choice of -5% additional from an RDM or -30% from an NQ GEO since the geo, whms, or blms can provide Dia II.

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If you bring a cor around it's not even a choice. Just have the cor double light shot Dia II and it will be better than your non light shotted Dia III

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Put simply, it is a stacking form of Skillchain bonus that breaks the 30% Cap classes like Dancer has (The spell itself starts at 50% with 2 different weapon types in rotation.) and grows exponentially as you stack Skillchains. This multiplies with elemental weakness modifiers and Skillchain Damage bonuses.

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That's not what exponential means....

Anyways I did some testing way back when it came out and it was a separate factor from everything else which is nice but the bonus for each step with a different weapon type decreased each step and pets definitely counted though never got to testing to see if different pets counted separately from each other. Seems to have been deleted so going to have to go by memory but I definitely remember 50% for 2 weapon type skillchain and then I believe was another 33% for next step if using another weapon type then 25% and so on. Haven't used it for awhile but I seem to remember some rdms I know saying something as broken about it awhile back. Like it would wear off after first skillchain.

Though it's all kind of moot because balancing weapon types and using often inferior ws while waiting and holding tp for the right moment is going to destroy your dps. Which is why no ones really cared to do do too much with it. Especially with the dmg cap still existing. If it wasn't for the dmg cap could probably pull of some rather cool stuff with it that might actually be worth the effort. Ya know like ending a 6 step/type level 3 skillchain with a 99999 ws which by my rough estimate assuming no special dmg takes and such on the mob and the pattern holds on the bonus almost 800k skillchain lol. But there's that cap and the fact we can get really high ws and skillchain dmg just by spamming the same 1-2 ws instead so....

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Originally Posted by Urmom

That's not what exponential means....

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So you got baited on semantics, good one there.

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Though it's all kind of moot because balancing weapon types and using often inferior ws while waiting and holding tp for the right moment is going to destroy your dps. Which is why no ones really cared to do do too much with it. Especially with the dmg cap still existing. If it wasn't for the dmg cap could probably pull of some rather cool stuff with it that might actually be worth the effort. Ya know like ending a 6 step/type level 3 skillchain with a 99999 ws which by my rough estimate assuming no special dmg takes and such on the mob and the pattern holds on the bonus almost 800k skillchain lol. But there's that cap and the fact we can get really high ws and skillchain dmg just by spamming the same 1-2 ws instead so....

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... so at minimum it's a 50% skillchain damage boost multiplicative before resists/bonuses, and grows from there depending on your coordination with melee. Meaning your heaviest hitting melee are likely to hit the damage cap and your lesser damage WSes that skillchain will hit harder. Knowing where to cut that off so you're using it as a boosting DPS is up to actually having someone who know's what they're doing organizing your skillchains.

You're also overplaying how many players can even hit max damage in skillchains. There's still a clear hierarchy of melee who are better suited to open skillchains than to close them. In a skillchain/MB meta it's free, unresistant damage that scales.

Only time when holding TP is a DPS loss is if you've got Melee sitting on 2000 + TP frequently and their WS hits hardest among the group. Usually in situations like that you have them participate as the closer for multiple openers who aren't building TP as frequently or don't have as high damage output with their WS.

If you're halfway decent at skillchaining you won't be ruining your DPS. You're also forgetting the other important factor here - keeping your skillchain window open continuously.

Let's not not forget that in the present design, giving bosses the abundance of tp they'd get from 2-3 different damage dealers (different weapon type) is a bad idea when it can be avoided. 1-2 DD can give you all the skillchains you need, just as frequently.

But then so can 2 SCH.

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Originally Posted by Immortta

Oh another thing they need to get rid of is the HP scaling. Sorry it just doesn't work and causes people to exclude others and certain jobs. I think it's just a big detriment to the game considering people can win these fights regardless of the HP increase, it just makes it more stressful and forces change in setup.

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When I measured how much 1 extra person added to the Zi'tah Behemoth it was like 50k HP. That's less than one nuke from one magic burst. No one even knows for sure how HP scaling works no one has tested it. It probably adds more to higher level NMs with more Max HP and it probably affects stats other than just HP. Even if it added 250k hp to a mob though, if the person you're bringing is another Death BLM that's less than 3 magic bursts, which is going to be much more than made up for over a 30 minute fight.

It's mostly used as an excuse by LS leaders to exclude people, when in fact the reason they exclude people is either social (they like their crew already) or gear and skill (you would make the fight harder instead of easier). Without HP scaling, how big a LS you have and how many people you can throw at something becomes more important than how good of a player and crew you have. Which is nothing I want to return to, ever. If you tell people that though, they usually get defensive and aggressive and it's much easier on them if you blame the game mechanics or SE than the players.

I should also add that without fail if all the players are adequately geared, having more blm in an endgame fight makes the fight go faster, not slower. 18 man clears are not only faster but more reliable, IF the players are all up to par and not dead weight. 4 BLM doing death is much faster than 2, even if it means having another GEO SCH and COR along to support them (though a 2nd GEO and SCH Probably there anyway in most setups).

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Let's not not forget that in the present design, giving bosses the abundance of tp they'd get from 2-3 different damage dealers (different weapon type) is a bad idea when it can be avoided. 1-2 DD can give you all the skillchains you need, just as frequently.

But then so can 2 SCH.

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This boils back down to the whole "it's not Red Mage, it's a larger problem" argument I've been proving here, so nobody has forgotten anything. You'd also have to have two Melee that are effectively ovegeared for the content they are doing to get the result you're asking. And both the two Melee and 2 SCH situation have larger gaps in their MB window. Which, for Apex parties, dosen't matter, but for some of these larger fights, you'd be ending it a lot quicker if your nukers could simply chain nuke through a large MB window at full burst.

But, if you MUST remove Melee from the equation. I'll remind you that Inundation is a spell that deals no damage, is unresitable, and works with all skillchains regardless of the source. As I said, old ToAU tactics (which were also TP-phobic in nature.) still work just fine.

What it takes, in order to make good use for it, is teamwork. Inundation is free skillchain damage that rewards co-ordination and continual teamwork with a bigger bottom line. Probably why I like it so much. This Nuke heavy meta that's all stat abuse doesn't sit as well with me, and makes me feel like it'll get nerfed somehow in the future.

Corsair could use A+ Marksmanship or accuracy bonus traits, as well as increasing the potency of hunters roll, warlocks roll there quite low compared to geomancer variants or possibly a 3rd roll if you increase jobpoints gifts further, as well as raise the acc bonus gifts we gained to that of what other DDs recieve.

Geomancer Dagan would be cool and increase there club skill to the A's as well as add them to some better damage dealing clubs like Izcalli, geomancers Ra'3s i find are a disgusting huge waste of mp and could either increase the damage to blackmages ja counterpart or reduce the mp cost, Geomancer could also have the magicburst bonus trait to level 2-3. Before people call me out and say Cardinal Chant Already does this it does not break the 40% cap like the trait does.

Whitemages erase2(erases 2 magical enfeebles) as well as give them regen5 and A+ club skill and higher acc bonus gifts, mabey make divine magic alot stronger nukewise?

Redmage i think should redo the group 1 merits, Just make magic accuracy 1 catagory (+3maacc) Add Enhancing magic effect +1(applies to haste regen refresh bars gains temper and enspell and possibly future enhances) to group 1s as well as Enfeebling Effect +1 (so we could get 20% dia3 defense downs and increase potency of all other enfeebles). If you cant do proposed group 1 changes mabey put the group2 spells on scrolls make a catagory for dia and bio effect +1 phalanx effect +1 and haste effect +1. You raised pup blu and dancers main combat skills to A+ over the years i dont see why we cant have A- in sword or dagger or give us some accurcy bonus traits. Could also give Redmage A+ Enhancing magic skill and make spells break the 500 skill cap for more potency (I'm looking at you phalanx and barspells) Redmage needs a magic defense - enfeeble bad as well as add to Inundation to either increase magic burst damage or reduce the damage reduction for multiple magic bursts done in a skillchain. More enhances i would like to see would be Bravery (Add accuracy/att to you or party member) and Faith (Magic Attack/Acc boost to you or party member) Enspell 2s should work on multi attacks and give half the acc bonus of enlight and half the attackbonus of endark based on enhancing magic, or give us enlight 1 endark1. Blink2 for Red and white. Would be fun to have Dreadspikes on Redmage. Get rid of shieldmastery and our divine skill to make room for other traits i may suggest us unless you wanna throw Reprisal/enlight our way. Gain/Boost spells need to break 500 enhancing skill cap to further raise the stats past 25. Introduce the magic Accurcy bonus traits to Rdm Geo Sch Blm Brd Nin Whm Drk to varieing degrees.(Dont see why Blumage is the only job who gets this) We got Regen 1 at lvl 21 same lvl as Whitemage yet we still only have Regen2 at level 76 when they got it at 44, we should have up to regen 4. Spontaneity as well as divine seal and elemental seal should be 5 min recasts(or lower) not 10. Another way to add enhancing magic effect +5 and enfeebling effect +5 would be to A put it on a ring like Corsairs Barataria Ring or B put it on Redmages mythic sword. As for job gifts adjustments again adjust the acc bonus gifts we and whitemage receive and give us cure 5 when we hit 100 JobPoints to unlock tier5 nukes. Could add Rdm to herculean gear or Adhemar Attire Set.

Scholar Let Adloquium Scale with skill to get 1-3 tp a tick. Increase schs magic burst trait to level 4 (its 3 atm) In the future if you add more gifts with Job Points let them get tier6 nukes under Addendum: Black, Addendum: White give us access to cure5 mabey Esuna as well, or put storm2s or helix on scroll and make the 1200 job gift the addendum upgrade. At level 49 should give sub schs 3 strategems and 1 minute and 20 seconds recharges. Accension should work on any enhancing spell period. I dont see why they dont want a scholar being able to accension that haste into a ga or that redmage accensioning that haste2/temper2/refresh3

Alot of certain job abilities are locked out when subbed. Examples are Yonin Innin from sub nin, Afflatus Solace Afflatus Misery from whitemage, Velocity Shot from ranger yet you'll give everyone access to convert from Redmage? This is silly and should be corrected.

Ninja take away the direction requirments from yonin and innin, if im tanking and the monsters still facing me and i wanna boost my magic burst damage with that innin nuke i should have the freedom to. More ninjitsu Jubaku ni and Kakka ni(15 storetp base) and make Kakka ichi lvl 49 Give ninja a foil equivalent ninjitsu that would solve enmity issues if you chose to tank. Take all the San Nukes and put them on a scrolls, combine all the group 1 nuke effects into one catagory, add Daken effect +1 as a new group 1 another group one could be kakka effect +1(more storetp) Group2 combine all the ninja nuke buffs into one category, next new group2 would be yonin effect +1 and 2nd would be innin effect +1. Critical attack bonus trait we should have lvl 2-3. Could Adjust Daken to allow it to work with Chakarams, boomerangs pebbles so jobs like dancer/thief can throw Chakarams , Boomerangs or rocks while autoattacking, or make some all job shurikens.

Thief Mug Steal Despoil lower there recasts(2-3mins), Conspirator Lower the recast or double duration, Make Hide erase all Enmity on thf regardless what your fighting, Accomplice should be 2-3 min recast not 5 Group 1 merits sneak attack and triple attack should be combined into one catagory for -2 secs each. Bring back Mercy Stroke ftp to 6:0 and Mandalic Stab Ftp to 5:0 add 1 for all 1000 tp increase increments Exenerator could use a buff as well its pretty bad. If the new 2hander and hand to hand weapon buff is that strong increase rudras ftp by 1 or .50 for each 1000 tp.

Dancer Update steps to be like pup manuvers no job ability delay when using them.

Puppetmaster id like to set 16 attachments vs 12 mabey via more pup quests or raise elemental capacity by another 1-2 via quests or more future gifts. I'll trade my evasion bonus lvl 4 for accurcy bonus lvl 4 anyday.

Monk Crit att bonus lvl 2-3



Essentially i think all jas that are 5min should be reduced to 3-4 same with most 10 min abillities should be halfed, or if you masterd your job all main job ability recast is reduced by 25 %

Sorry if i didn't list any other additions for other jobs as i dont really know what other dds need outside of a huge buff to even compete with Bluemages.

Dont forget to leave a like if you agree with any of my suggestions, its the only way these might even possibly be looked at

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Originally Posted by Fae

it probably affects stats other than just HP.

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When HP scaling was introduced to Delve, SE said that enemies' HP would be reduced, but their strength was not adjusted.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

So you got baited on semantics, good one there.



... so at minimum it's a 50% skillchain damage boost multiplicative before resists/bonuses, and grows from there depending on your coordination with melee. Meaning your heaviest hitting melee are likely to hit the damage cap and your lesser damage WSes that skillchain will hit harder. Knowing where to cut that off so you're using it as a boosting DPS is up to actually having someone who know's what they're doing organizing your skillchains.

You're also overplaying how many players can even hit max damage in skillchains. There's still a clear hierarchy of melee who are better suited to open skillchains than to close them. In a skillchain/MB meta it's free, unresistant damage that scales.

Only time when holding TP is a DPS loss is if you've got Melee sitting on 2000 + TP frequently and their WS hits hardest among the group. Usually in situations like that you have them participate as the closer for multiple openers who aren't building TP as frequently or don't have as high damage output with their WS.

If you're halfway decent at skillchaining you won't be ruining your DPS. You're also forgetting the other important factor here - keeping your skillchain window open continuously.

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I think you are highly overestimating how well people can not only coordinate doing ws but also somehow timing when they get enough tp for holding it to not be a downside. Fact is in practice more than 2 dds at high attack speeds it often becomes detrimental to make sure you perform skillchains. Having some idea of timing to try for them helps but actively holding tp and dmg back not so much. This is why it adding more dds lowers your average dps and sometimes even overall dps.

And you are forgetting that keeping your skillchain window often open isn't actually a plus because you are constantly changing the elements making the timing of those MB much harder. Not to mention each step shortens the window to begin with. You are also forgetting that too much magic that close together imposes huge penalties on the dmg.

And don't forget to do these long multi step multi weapon type skillchains you will have to use inferior ws and inferior skillchains. So it's not like you it's not like you are necessarily doing more dmg than the guy just self lighting

Urmom nailed it.

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The simple fact is all the coordination, preparation and babysitting that such a strategy requires often leads to inferior or equal results than just bringing PLD, WHM, GEO, SCH, [GEO, SCH or BLM], BLM. There are no melee that need cared for or waited on while they wait for amensia to wear off. TP isn't being fed, excess tp isn't being fed, animation locks + dread spikes aren't killing your dual wielders, vex/attune probably isn't needed. Your source of skillchains doesn't have to worry about sitting vulnerable or struggling to hit the boss.

Hyrist, you called me out earlier as if I'm saying that these are red mage problems.. they aren't, but they're problems that affect red mage and a lot of other jobs. The tragedy is that the game is designed in such a lopsided fashion that when you doneed a good BRD or RDM or NIN, it's often difficult to find one and I can't blame people "Oh, now you want me?"

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

The tragedy is that the game is designed in such a lopsided fashion that when you doneed a good BRD or RDM or NIN, it's often difficult to find one and I can't blame people "Oh, now you want me?"

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Can confirm.

Hey, when you argue on behalf of laziness , there isn't an argument in the world that will convince those that prefer it otherwise.

But it's 2016. It's not as if all our players are playing on 3 different consoles. VoiP is free and plentiful. All it takes is one shot caller, especially if that shot caller knows what their doing.

A self Skillchainer benefits from Inundation as well. However, they're not going out damage a team that turns that one self skillchain into two separate skillchains, especially if they're properly stacked. A mage team that can continuously burst will also out DPS a team that has to wait between the WSes not skillchaining to burst, all other variables being the same. Then there's also the unspecified Burst bonus that comes with skillchain stacking. (which we should have numbers on by now, guessing research is harder these days.)

Oh, and you can keep any element you chose through 3 skill-chains consistently. With fire, you can do it for four, and is the only element that can. (That trick is only for longest bursting window though, not for max WS/SC damage) So no, altering your Mage's Elements and hurting their windows flatly isn't a thing, and if it is, you're doing it wrong. Again, you prioritize free-nuking of your bursters if your Mage DPS outscales your Melee - which in this Meta it does a bit of lost WS damage is easily overcompensated by one more MBed nuke in the same span of time. More than likely though, you can find enough hard-hitting WSes to complete that chain without devastating your damage. Only hurts damage when you're stacking weapon types too much and you wind up stretching one Weapon's capability of reaching all tier 2 skillchain types.

But again, if all you want to be is lazy, then you can always just settle for the 50% bonus skillchain damage. You don't need to be special or skilled for it. Just happens to be a really nice spell for melee, that gets better the more you get smart with your skillchains. It's something that's been overlooked.

I don't appreciate the insult.

The problem is that one tactic approaches the boss with "this will probably work", and the other tactic approaches the boss with "this is smarter, safer, faster, and easier" in 90% of content. Manaburn presently has all the benefits and none of the weaknesses.

- Safe mages
- TP feed is not an issue
- Accuracy for skillchain components is not an issue -- If Strats are available, a scholar and stand at max range, double weak--when magic acc is floored--and make a skillchain. Granted, if a mage is double weak, they probably won't stay alive for long, this is just to illustrate how irrelevant magic accuracy is for sch skillchaining.
- For whatever reason, Magic Accuracy seems easier to meet, and bursting grants a m.acc bonus
- Without melee, you can focus all your buffs towards one type
- All mages benefit from most mage buffs
- The tank just isn't likely to die most the time, especially if less tp feed is coming
- Mages produce far less enmity which matters after a hate reset or in content where enmity is a bit shakier (like HTBF)
- Most debuffs/aoes don't even hit mages so there's less babysitting/distraction for the healer.

I actually can't believe the game is where it's at and am kind of disappointed, but don't blame me for it.

I was tired of being political correct. It really does boil down to the habitual obsession with gamers taking the path of least resistance and that's all that there is to it. Call it efficiency or laziness, but it boils down to even if benefits or a harder tactic were to out-scale the 'safe way', you will always find the majority argument to always side with the least amount of effort involved. Even if the better result incurs more risk, players will prefer the riskless route. That's why higher difficulty trials typically run with a uniform group. In my humble opinion it stops being a game at that point and turns it into a chore. The playerbase's obsession with this is as much at fault with the decline of the game and the push towards more soloists over groups.

We're reaching the point where, as a player, you should be looking for other players, not looking for other jobs. Making tactics work rather than arm-stringing players into play jobs they don't enjoy just to participate. The inverse quickens this game's end dramatically.


I am in agreement with you that several components of the game flatly should not exist how they are. As I'm particularly harsh right now, let me get some nastiness out of my system by putting some short and cutting changes to accommodate the issues you listed. We are in a suggestion thread, after all.

- Safe mages - More AoEs specifically targeted at Long range only attacks where safe range is close. Have this alternate with normal aoes. Also have AoE attacks that target the lowest on the hate scale. You should absolutely never have a 'safe' class in an mmo.
- TP feed is not an issue - Remove TP feed and give every monster high Regain or, by comparison, give monsters inverse Occult Acumen multiplied by a factor of 10-100. Heavy or frequent damage should be universally dangerous one way or another.
- Accuracy for skillchain components is not an issue -- If Strats are available, a scholar and stand at max range, double weak--when magic acc is floored--and make a skillchain. Granted, if a mage is double weak, they probably won't stay alive for long, this is just to illustrate how irrelevant magic accuracy is for sch skillchaining. - Remove Immanence, replace with a skill that grands Magic Burst Accuracy and Damage.
- For whatever reason, Magic Accuracy seems easier to meet, and bursting grants a m.acc bonus. - Tune the Magical Evasion Scaling to level and Melee Evasion Scaling per level to match. Have all skillchains grant an Physical Evasion Down debuff of 30%, debuff lasts five seconds.
- Without melee, you can focus all your buffs towards one type - hard-cap M.Atk,M.Defence difference calculations to similar levels of attack.
- All mages benefit from most mage buffs - Remain unchanged. Physical Damage calculations are also universal. Have March apply to Ranged Attack speed.
- The tank just isn't likely to die most the time, especially if less tp feed is coming - Redundant, addressed TP feed argument above.
- Mages produce far less enmity which matters after a hate reset or in content where enmity is a bit shakier (like HTBF) - Targeted AoEs on different parts of the Emnity scale (above) removes 'safety' issue. Hard-cap enmity reduction below lvl 75 levels to be sure.
- Most debuffs/aoes don't even hit mages so there's less babysitting/distraction for the healer. - Targeted AoEs at back-line, AoEs that strike at ~50 radius.

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I actually can't believe the game is where it's at and am kind of disappointed, but don't blame me for it.

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I don't blame you for the state of the game. I blame the playerbase mentality for shamelessly and uniformly exploiting it to the point of excluding our fellow players. Valuing gains to the point that will lead us into a quicker dead end both in terms of capping characters out quicker and having little to nothing to do, and in pushing players away causing this game's lifeline to close out sooner, above actually working with and playing with people, as people and enjoying the time we have in game rather than the loot in your pool.

I've literally heard the argument to me that the most important factor in this game is the time/gil ratio of content. And I spent two days off the game baffled at when our playerbase BECAME the gilsellers. But that's literally the state of the game right now, and, yeah, I'm salty you're arguing on behalf of that mentality.

I agree with pretty much everything, Hyrist. You touched on a lot of complaints I've had about Melee vs. Magic job balancing. I agree that there should be a similar level of survival threat for all jobs, and perhaps boss mechanics that actively encourage player movement. And I definitely agree that TP feed is an outdated mechanic that disproportionately affects melee. It would be neat to see that replaced with either HP-triggered or phase triggered attacks, and introduce more environmental ("don't stand in fire") kind of threats to keep us on our toes. That way the damage could be a threat to anyone, but avoidable if you're paying attention.

The only problem though is that now that the development team is smaller, we're not likely to see any drastic game mechanic changes like that. We're kind of stuck with primarily Radial and Cone AoE threats, which makes things a little one dimensional as far as balancing boss encounters. It will always be safer for those who can stand out of range. Still, we did see some Environment mechanics in the Cloud of Darkness fight. So perhaps there is a little hope there!

That's understandable, but I was making extreme fixes.

Easier to implement and more moderately done are things like Eminty adjustments, increase in TP feed from casting (so long as it's flagged as a different source, can we get confirmation on that?) The removal of Immanence is also kind of a critical issue. Skillchains were supposed to be a teamwork component between Mages and Melee, and that one skill completely removes that mechanic and its intended purpose.

As far as targeted WSes. If we're talking problems with making mages and Melee Equal have more global AoEs. I'm talking range radius of 50 yalms. Everyone gets hit, nobody is 'safe'. Yes, this 'burdens' the healers, but it actually makes use of them, and makes damage mitigation skills and abilities useful. The AoEs don't have to be frequent and killing on their own.)You can balance out the global damage with the removal of TP feed, have them impact soft threats. And it's not hard to program in Regain, it will just take time to do it to so many monsters at this point. Still, focusing on endgame (Escha) mobs really should just do the trick.

We have enough depth in existing code to make fights more engaging and more universal in threat. Meanwhile all these obscene efficiency arguments are really moot until tier 2s in Eschas (And spotty there.) The harder part about Escha is actually getting warm bodies to show and help gear people up. And that's due to how hostile the environment endgame is towards Melee and anything not in this 'mage onry' meta.

Most other issues are just numbers adjustments. These calculations are literally just sitting in the code and can be altered fairly easily.

Eh, some of these pops are expensive or annoying to farm. Loot is not 100% and when it's something half or more of your group needs 1 (or more ._.) of, you take the effective strategy.

With a bit of luck, ninja can tank many of the bosses in the game. RDM can heal it (content where the backline jobs are safe), but we don't bring NIN and RDM, we bring RUN/PLD and SCH/WHM. Why? Because it's more intelligent. It's not lazy to bring the tank that can properly mitigate the damage or the healer that can properly protect the tank. In the same way, it's only practical to bring the most intelligent strategy.

You come here and read a few posts I've made and assume things like I'm arguing for the current meta, and I'm really not:
- I've just accepted it. I've been complaining for a long time that the rate at which melee TP have now rendered more than 2 melee (sometimes including the tank) useless. Needs to be fixed but SE barely acknowledges it. Attack speed is so fast that two melee can reliably pull off three step skillchains. Here's one idea I had A command to shut off the skillchain properties of weaponskills
- I've commented on the problem that refresh/sources of full mana are probably too abundant. The trade-off used to be that melee started empty, built up (tp), mages started full and emptied out ("these kids today probably don't know the difference between hMP and HMP"). Now, Mages start full and pretty much stay full. They used to be glass-cannons but now they're rock solid machine guns even on a simple boss like delores whose mechanics were meant to try to thwart mages a little bit.
- and various other things.

A friend in game said it best: The imbalance right now often leaves you feeling like you're mercing for your own ls--you're playing on the effective jobs, to get the task done so that some guy can join and lot a piece of gear and drop--and he's content to do just that.

I do agree, and have suggested before, that Immanence needs some tough love but combat needs an overhaul first. One that, like Shyles said, we probably won't see. Square shouldn't just say "Immanence has been removed" and leave LS's struggling to to gear people have have been focusing on Amalric rather than Ryuo.

The funny thing about Amnesia is Nyzul has had the mage-counter all along. A boss that inhibits the use of certain types of magic at certain phases.

Heh..I want to come back to this game full time (I play it a little atm) and my boyfriend wants to come back, but upon hearing that ninja can't really tank anything..I dunno.

I was watching my friend fight some of the new end game bosses and they were using a bunch of BST and mages...that seems kind of silly. Why alienate jobs still and do this? Well anyway, if that is indeed the way it is..I hope the devs will incorporate melee again and make all tanks useful.

I think they just need to make melee only give about 2 tp to the mob per swing just like the way mobs attacks only give that much. That alone should cut down on tp moves quite a bit. They'll still get to 1k fairly quickly even with only 2 melee but iirc how mobs tp'd depended on both how quickly they are taking damage/how much tp they have. Right now with 2 melee with capped haste mobs are perma 3k tp. Not sure SE could do away with the tp system since melee/bst pet's also rely on it so it's probably connected? Though, if SE uncapped Subtle Blow and just gave all jobs 100 subtle blow in traits, I guess that would work. They would still have to add regain to every single mob and decide how much each should get.

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A friend in game said it best: The imbalance right now often leaves you feeling like you're mercing for your own ls--you're playing on the effective jobs, to get the task done so that some guy can join and lot a piece of gear and drop--and he's content to do just that.

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And this is where we get existential...

See, this is where I get labeled an Altruist. This idea of "mercing for friends." And this complaint that "Pop's are expensive." They're pretty selfish arguments. If you don't like the gameplay so much that you're overburdened by helping others, doesn't that betray the idea of playing the game? Or is taking the time to help people feel like that much of a waste of time that it saps the very reason for being. If that's the case, wouldn't a single player game like something of the Souls series suit your play desires better?

The game is not so hard that you absolutely cannot play the class you want. Yes, often those who chose to be more flexible end up sticking to the classes needed the most, or that make things the easiest. But isn't that the reason for leveling those classes to begin with? Or was it simply the selfish desire to exploit the existence of those Meta classes to get what you want out of the game quicker?

This is why I stick to one class, and have that one class be a Hybird. There's no question of my passion and my flexibility being in conflict. My desires and my limits are one and the same, and are defined directly by my choice. There's no room for error of interpretation of will there. I can do a lot on Red Mage, I make the choice not to be the Main healer as my only preference against what I'm capable of, and that's mainly out of hesitation to take that responsibility. If RDM could still tank effectively, I'd do that too to help people. Sure, there are 'better jobs' but in my experience those 'better jobs' are often out there for their own sake. They're after the bottom line playing those jobs to gear up what they really want to play. Which to me feels counter-intuitive. I'm playing the job I want to play and I endeavor to help with it.

I deal with the limits of the class because I enjoy the gameplay of it that much more, which means going to help others isn't 'mercing for your friends'. That sort of label isn't even a consideration, even in the (rare) instances where I'm flat out carrying.

So I can't get on board with the 'Oh but the pops are expensive' 'Oh it feels like mercing' arguments because I disagree with the base philosophy behind those statements. That tells me you're not playing something you genuinely enjoy, be it the game, the class or the company you play it with. And that enjoyment is dependent on a bottom line that seems selfish on the outside. I just can't, personally, abide by that train of thought, not for myself. It was the fact that I had to subscribe by that train of thought to get by back in the older days of the game that actually drove me away form it.

Thankfully, there are ways around that now for the majority of the game and goals I have in mind, so I don't have to. And now I can work on my character to make him more powerful so that I can take that growing power to help others. That's an ideal game for me, as I love the concept of character and team building.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

See, this is where I get labeled an Altruist. This idea of "mercing for friends." And this complaint that "Pop's are expensive." They're pretty selfish arguments. If you don't like the gameplay so much that you're overburdened by helping others, doesn't that betray the idea of playing the game? Or is taking the time to help people feel like that much of a waste of time that it saps the very reason for being. If that's the case, wouldn't a single player game like something of the Souls series suit your play desires better?

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You misunderstand. He wasn't saying that he minded "mercing" for friends (as in, helping ls-mates get the gear they wanted) or that he didn't want them in the alliance but it's simply impractical. He was being critical of the game in that moment, and perhaps critical of people unwilling to level anything else because yes, there are some amazingly simple NMs that are made substantially harder if you take bad jobs.

Losing is no fun, I'm sure we've all had a fight or two where after a few wipes, people were just ready to log off, sometimes people fake-dc (whether they admit it or not). Winning is fun. You don't get a special reward for banging your head against a wall knowing that there's a better strategy but stubbornly refusing to try it.

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The game is not so hard that you absolutely cannot play the class you want. Yes, often those who chose to be more flexible end up sticking to the classes needed the most, or that make things the easiest. But isn't that the reason for leveling those classes to begin with? Or was it simply the selfish desire to exploit the existence of those Meta classes to get what you want out of the game quicker?

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I play PLD because I love it. When it was practically useless during late aby/vw/early adoulin, I did the things on PLD that it was still good for. Supertanking, or a safety net on some bosses, and voking the VW boss while the melee tossed up temps to protect themselves. On content where PLD had no valid use (and there was a lot), I went something else.

In early Delve, I was wanted again because I could take half the zone to a corner somewhere so the group could deal with killing the bosses which, since we were pressed for time, was a necesary strategy.

I did not play BST in Aby because it was overpowered, I played BST because it worked exceptionally well on some fights and allowed me to help my friends get things they wanted in a very effective fashion. "This boss charms? He can't charm Falcorr".

I started playing GEO without the slightest inkling for how potent it was. My group at the time had a PLD that was better geared than me and I felt terrible for being on PLD while he was standing there on BLM with a nice pld hanging in his mog house. I do not love GEO because it's overpowered, I actually think GEO is reasonably powered and that Bard needs an overhaul and COR needs some buffs.

I don't play classes to exploit anything, I play classes to help my friends win. I've had moments in this game where we won something when we didn't really expect to--like when I ended up monk-tanking charby or my very first Byakko which started as a profound mess--but that doesn't mean that I went to future charbys with the intention of tanking as monk or Byakkos and told the nin to pop Byakko again without shadows.

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This is why I stick to one class, and have that one class be a Hybird. There's no question of my passion and my flexibility being in conflict. My desires and my limits are one and the same, and are defined directly by my choice. There's no room for error of interpretation of will there. I can do a lot on Red Mage, I make the choice not to be the Main healer as my only preference against what I'm capable of, and that's mainly out of hesitation to take that responsibility. If RDM could still tank effectively, I'd do that too to help people. Sure, there are 'better jobs' but in my experience those 'better jobs' are often out there for their own sake. They're after the bottom line playing those jobs to gear up what they really want to play. Which to me feels counter-intuitive. I'm playing the job I want to play and I endeavor to help with it.

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See, I wouldn't call you flexible at all, if you stick to one job regardless of the circumstance. There are times that you're weighing your group down. I don't let myself do that. Like I said, when PLD had a valid use, I went PLD--when it didn't, I went something else. When someone else had a better PLD, I was quite happy to go something else. Now? My paladin is top-notch (still needs some HQs) but if the synergy of the party works better with someone else, or some other job tanking while I play GEO or something else.. I'll do that. I'm not exploiting anything, I'm being a member of a team.

There's a lot of back and forth language here and I need to clear it up.

First off, Exploit in and of itself is not a negative term, it just has the expectation of it in the context of gaming. The mechanics surrounding around GEO, and the verb of you taking advantage of those mechanics, that is the very definition of exploit. It's the right word to use there. You don't need to resort to exploiting the most effective method to 'be a team player' and it's the wrong word usage to imply otherwise.

And while you wouldn't call me as a person flexible, I wouldn't disagree with your impression. I said that my flexibility is clearly defined. The roles I can do is broader than say, Monk. In that manner I am flexible. You're indicating that I am inflexible because I refuse to play other jobs. That too is also correct. Neither one of these statements are wrong. I can do more roles, but I'm not as effective at each role as if I were to say play a specialist. But never am I playing something that players come to rely upon that I actually dislike or grow to dislike either, which as much, if not more of an issue in groups. The whole "Pigeon hole" problem that comes with leveling multiple jobs, but getting stuck on one.

To expect a player to forfeit their right to play class they enjoy, simply to play a class that's more effective, that's a problem more than just 'weighing down'. The game is mean to be played, not worked.

The difference here is expectation. If you found GEO enjoyable and you play to help others, you lose nothing. You enjoy yourself. But if I, personally, were to know that you do not like playing GEO, and heard someone place the expectation of you to play it simply because you have it leveled. I'd voice my protest. To me, that is just as valid of being a team member as someone willing to flex over to another class they enjoy.

The only time I would say that sort of expectation on effectiveness is valid, is if you are actually paying someone (Gil) to clear content, aka, mercing.

In the end, I will take a passionate player out of Meta, get them through and make it work, than someone who begrudges or is even just dispassionate about what they're playing, even if it nets me a higher winrate. Because in the end, what you're going to remember is whether or not you had a good time. And while you say "Losing is no fun", I'd actually contest that. There are plenty of players that wipe or lose to content all day laughing their buts off and having a great time. And there are those who would rather struggle harder to win on something they enjoy and identify with. That special reward you get for winning a piece of content without using the 'best method'. It's the feeling of accomplishment. This is especially true when you're doing it with a group that's all playing Jobs they strongly enjoy and identify with. It's actually a fundamental principle behind any raid groups I run - especially outside of FFXI (FFXIV in particular).

To me, I've had so much fun in my time in FFXI with making outside strategies work, that I find that just a clear cut meta that pretty much just crushes content to be rather cheapening. I don't expect that feeling to reflect other people's feelings, however. But I do feel that levying any sort of expectations on others, especially in a game's twilight, is the wrong mindset.

If you'd rather play for yourself and be conscientious of yours and others 'time' above their enjoyment, or define your enjoyment by simply being time efficient, that's your prerogative. But I feel that enforcing this perspective as the norm is heavily counterproductive to the overall health of the game.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

There's a lot of back and forth language here and I need to clear it up.

First off, Exploit in and of itself is not a negative term, it just has the expectation of it in the context of gaming. The mechanics surrounding around GEO, and the verb of you taking advantage of those mechanics, that is the very definition of exploit. It's the right word to use there. You don't need to resort to exploiting the most effective method to 'be a team player' and it's the wrong word usage to imply otherwise.

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Exploit does typically have negative connotations and since you've been abrasive towards my opinion on these things, I took the negative implication.

No, maybe you don't need to be leveraging the most effective method to be a team player but you should bring some versatility. I'm 100% sure others in your group love certain jobs but are willing to change maybe to lesser-loved jobs and maybe to jobs they don't even really like.

FFXI and FFXIV (and a few other mmos) offer the capability to play different classes on the same character. Other games, like WoW, merely offer different "specs" or "trees" but the way these change the class is night and day. WoW's Retribution Paladin is almost a different class than WoW's protection Paladin. Players often play different roles on the same character and even different characters on the same account.

I find GEO (and bard!) very very boring. It's cool bridging the gap for players, or providing the protections. It's cool that, even though I don't like the job, I come very prepared and am usually the last mage standing in the event of a wipe. The win is fun, and getting my group the win is fun and that's reason enough for me to try other jobs.

Melee RDM right now struggles from a severe lack of adequate gearing options but there are other jobs you might like that would be great for when your party needed a potent melee.

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To expect a player to forfeit their right to play class they enjoy, simply to play a class that's more effective, that's a problem more than just 'weighing down'. The game is mean to be played, not worked.

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In my opinion, to want loot from an array of content that you can't adequately assist with is a real problem, and if you try other jobs, you might even actually find you like them. I also readily admit, and have admitted, that the blame is not entirely with the players (those that embrace the meta or disparage it). We should see wider diversity in jobs present, but we don't. I'm grinding out RUN right now, because there are some things that it just tanks better than PLD and the are other things (plenty) where the tanking is mostly equal, but Rayke/Gambit are invaluable. Yes, I am presently always comparing my HQ PLD to my NQ RUN and it's a little frustrating.

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If you'd rather play for yourself and be conscientious of yours and others 'time' above their enjoyment, or define your enjoyment by simply being time efficient, that's your prerogative. But I feel that enforcing this perspective as the norm is heavily counterproductive to the overall health of the game.

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More abrasiveness.

I will say it would just be nicer to see a greater diversity of jobs useful in content. I'd also like the playerbase to be more fun oriented, and for me "fun oriented" means taking people on the jobs they want to play.

Yes it does make things harder sometimes but the times I remember are not really the times where things are the perfect setup, but when friends tackled things together and overcame the odds.

There are real design flaws in the current paradigm and those design flaws are hurting the game.

I don't blame folks who have a lot of jobs leveled and a lot of decent gear who can clear things for doing things in the way that makes the most sense for them.

Still, I think that because of the lack of general knowledge about things and the hesitancy to fail that the game is not very friendly for a lot of players.

If jobs were more broadly useful this would break down somewhat, and if mechanics were more transparent. Honestly, how is a new player going to know about spell macros? How are they going to know they need a fast cast, duration and potency set for bard songs? Are we helping these players succeed?

I love how deep and complicated FFXI but at this stage of the game's life what it needs more than anything is community and memory of what truly made this game special - overcoming challenges with our friends.

One of my fondest memories of this game was on my second character - her highest leveled job was whm... like 31 or 33 or something, and some LS mates in their 50s died in Quicksand caves. I had never been there but I had the Altepa telepoint, so I bought a teleport, and went off to save them, the whm that teleported me joined, and we raised everyone just before their timers ran down. It was epic. It was ridiculous, but someone raising you when the sand bats in the dunes sniped you on the way to lizard camp was what made this game special and a lot of that has been lost.

Anyway, rambling, but I think we'd all probably like to see a bit more balance, but the more important thing is having fun when we do play - being generous and kind, and having a good time.

You can consider what I say abrasive, that's fine by me Omnys. I may disapprove of the mentality but it holds no bearing of my opinion on you as an individual. I do feel that having to point out situations in which you feel offended, however, distracts from the point of things. I don't know if this is an intentional red herring or argumentative leverage or you simply wish to call out what you find offensive, but it does not lend anything to the disagreement.

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In my opinion, to want loot from an array of content that you can't adequately assist with is a real problem.

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Let's not confuse adequacy with efficiency. To be adequate at anything in this game, you have but to clear it. The vast majority of this content does not require the meta that players who do enforce efficiency want to imply. Tiers 1 and the vast majority of 2 of all Esha NMs can be done with sub-optimal jobs and sub optimum compositions. They can, and have, been defeated by compositions lacking any of the 'best' currently in the meta.

So I feel you're stating a moot opinion here. There are no jobs that can't 'adequately' assist. The problem is the level of difficulty disparity between the optimal jobs and those that have fallen behind in efficiency. Nothing more.

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I also readily admit, and have admitted, that the blame is not entirely with the players (those that embrace the meta or disparage it).

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We're not disagreeing here. However you seem willing to argue down any responsibility on the unwelcoming atmosphere that many players create by embracing the meta to the point of neglect of other classes.

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We should see wider diversity in jobs present, but we don't.

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And I feel that it's our responsibility to not be so harsh on those who are attempting diversity, and seeking methods of improving its effectiveness, both in balance recommendations, and through use of current mechanics.

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I'm grinding out RUN right now, because there are some things that it just tanks better than PLD and the are other things (plenty) where the tanking is mostly equal, but Rayke/Gambit are invaluable. Yes, I am presently always comparing my HQ PLD to my NQ RUN and it's a little frustrating.

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To which I have to question your philosophy again. You're playing a game in a way that frustrates you. To me, that not only devalues the game for you, but devalues the experience of those you are playing with. A person who dislikes the job they are playing are as noticeable as a job that's not properly geared. Excitement and boredom are both infectious - which is why I question the overall effectiveness of pressing efficiency to such levels. Enjoyment is the purpose of this game, not the loot, in my understanding on how pastimes are supposed to operate.

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I'm 100% sure others in your group love certain jobs but are willing to change maybe to lesser-loved jobs and maybe to jobs they don't even really like.

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You're absolutely right, and I take up the exact argument with them as well. If they play a class they dislike, I flatly discourage them from doing it, especially in any group I lead. If there is a way of making a composition work containing jobs in my group everyone enjoys - then I will use that above the optimum. 100% of the time, the mood of the event in question is higher by a marked amount.

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No, maybe you don't need to be leveraging the most effective method to be a team player but you should bring some versatility.

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Melee RDM right now struggles from a severe lack of adequate gearing options but there are other jobs you might like that would be great for when your party needed a potent melee.

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You seem to make the presumption that Melee is all I do. This would be incorrect. As I said before, Red Mage in and of itself is a highly versatile class. Healing sets, nuking sets, enfeebeling, enhancing, melee - I work on them all. A Red Mage is no less versatile than other mage Hybrids in this regard, with the standing exception of AoE power. The trade off for that, however, is how quickly a Red Mage can switch gears. I can show up to a group in Melee gear, but swap to healing or nuking instantly and not have to wait on a cooldown.

Also, your presumption an Red Mage's accessibility to effective Melee gear is a bit off. I can, with my current gear, hit all T1 Escha mobs just fine, and I wouldn't call myself decently geared yet. I'm currently below Carmine levels of Accuracy. I honestly don't seek to melee really past that point, with the exception of a few Tier 2s and potentially Sinister Reign. Most Red Mages don't, iirc. However, back on point: the situation isn't even remotely severe. I acknowledge that it exists, however. But it has never existed to the hyperbole players have pushed upon the class in the history in the game. And while our best gearing point poi of that was when Escha Sky, was the highest loot table, it's still quite favorable.

That said, when accuracy or danger in the front-line is too much of a trouble, I can hop to the back-line and assist there. Sadly that's not true for most classes that can Melee. Red Mage has the advantage of its extensive toolkit at its disposal.

Finding others of similar playstyle to your own, or that get along with your own plastyle is really the only requirement here, however. I don't want players to feel dejected from the game simply because their class is out of Meta, especially when the can get really far when they do put effort in.

As far as me personally...

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..and if you try other jobs, you might even actually find you like them.

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I have, and I really don't, sadly. Nothing has captivated me the way Red Mage does. I tried hard to like Blue Mage. It felt wrong back in the 75 Era and seeing it preform and picturing me there actually makes me feel a bit off - like it's a cheap knockoff of what I really want to do. Dancer was meh at best. Dark Knight just... no.

Ninja, Paladin, and Rune Fencer are the only remaining hybrids (melee casters) with remote draw to them, and frankly it's only because they're tanks, and that's the one role I can't touch on with RDM. (Except when people start dieing, but I don't count survival tanking. I can't keep hate well enough.)

Any other class archtype? {No Thanks.} That's what I play other games for.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

You can consider what I say abrasive, that's fine by me Omnys. I may disapprove of the mentality but it holds no bearing of my opinion on you as an individual. I do feel that having to point out situations in which you feel offended, however, distracts from the point of things. I don't know if this is an intentional red herring or argumentative leverage or you simply wish to call out what you find offensive, but it does not lend anything to the disagreement.

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Meh, it might be just be but I have a difficult time having a conversation who shows blatant disrespect to the other person.

I am not trying to flame you or to disparage you in any fashion now or at any point in this thread.

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Let's not confuse adequacy with efficiency. To be adequate at anything in this game, you have but to clear it. The vast majority of this content does not require the meta that players who do enforce efficiency want to imply. Tiers 1 and the vast majority of 2 of all Esha NMs can be done with sub-optimal jobs and sub optimum compositions. They can, and have, been defeated by compositions lacking any of the 'best' currently in the meta.

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That's not true though. If you carry a melee through content that they don't have the accuracy to hit, were they adequate for it? No, being adequate means contributing a fair amount, whether it be in healing, tanking, or damage-done.

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We're not disagreeing here. However you seem willing to argue down any responsibility on the unwelcoming atmosphere that many players create by embracing the meta to the point of neglect of other classes.

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I just more take the attitude that if we wait for things to change, we'll be waiting a long time. I can both clear content with my efficient group and come here and keep reminding SE that balance and mechanics are severely broken.

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To which I have to question your philosophy again. You're playing a game in a way that frustrates you. To me, that not only devalues the game for you, but devalues the experience of those you are playing with. A person who dislikes the job they are playing are as noticeable as a job that's not properly geared. Excitement and boredom are both infectious - which is why I question the overall effectiveness of pressing efficiency to such levels. Enjoyment is the purpose of this game, not the loot, in my understanding on how pastimes are supposed to operate.

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Playing RUN doesn't frustrate me, but I can understand why you read it that way. I didn't finish my thought and I don't know why. I must have gotten distracted. My apologies. It's frustrating to try to respect RUN for what it is when presently, there's not a whole lot of fights that bringing my PLD for just doesn't feel like the better option. I also don't fully understand some aspects of RUN.

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You're absolutely right, and I take up the exact argument with them as well. If they play a class they dislike, I flatly discourage them from doing it, especially in any group I lead. If there is a way of making a composition work containing jobs in my group everyone enjoys - then I will use that above the optimum. 100% of the time, the mood of the event in question is higher by a marked amount.

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I don't know, there seems to be two modes in XI. You can either steamroll content or struggle with it. Sometimes, even the optimum setup is still only a chance to win. I kill some things that I don't have to bring a Burtgang paladin to but--at the same time--why wouldn't I? Why not make it easier on my friends.

That's probably an important difference between you and I and I'm not trying to say anything badly about you with this: I get enjoyment out of doing as much as I can for the group. Doing everything I can to make sure that we win. Your enjoyment is different, you don't mind a struggle if it means the outset is more fun. I guess once I've killed an NM one or five times, the battle itself stops being fun.

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You seem to make the presumption that Melee is all I do. This would be incorrect. As I said before, Red Mage in and of itself is a highly versatile class. Healing sets, nuking sets, enfeebeling, enhancing, melee - I work on them all. A Red Mage is no less versatile than other mage Hybrids in this regard, with the standing exception of AoE power. The trade off for that, however, is how quickly a Red Mage can switch gears. I can show up to a group in Melee gear, but swap to healing or nuking instantly and not have to wait on a cooldown.

Also, your presumption an Red Mage's accessibility to effective Melee gear is a bit off. I can, with my current gear, hit all T1 Escha mobs just fine, and I wouldn't call myself decently geared yet. I'm currently below Carmine levels of Accuracy. I honestly don't seek to melee really past that point, with the exception of a few Tier 2s and potentially Sinister Reign. Most Red Mages don't, iirc. However, back on point: the situation isn't even remotely severe. I acknowledge that it exists, however. But it has never existed to the hyperbole players have pushed upon the class in the history in the game. And while our best gearing point poi of that was when Escha Sky, was the highest loot table, it's still quite favorable.

That said, when accuracy or danger in the front-line is too much of a trouble, I can hop to the back-line and assist there. Sadly that's not true for most classes that can Melee. Red Mage has the advantage of its extensive toolkit at its disposal.

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I believe you said before that you don't heal on RDM, as a personal choice and I don't blame you. Healing is probably RDM's weakest role right now. While I don't think very highly of RDM melee, a melee RDM is only possibly slower. It probably won't lead to a wipe, though it might lead to a timeout.

You made your affinity for melee RDM known and I assumed since you still talked about versatility that you were also nuking. If the boss can be enfeebled, and you have an RDM there, it's an RDM you want enfeebling.

I am aware of RDM's hypothetical versatility as I said before when I said that if SE makes RDM too good at too many aspects, the dynamics of the class could make it so that an RDM/DRK is only a separate macro book away from being useful on the frontline or the backline. SCH is unlikely to be able to hop between roles mid fight effectively due to stratagems and BLU has a 1 minute cooldown and spell points on it. It also probably wants to change weapons when its role changes (though an RDM would too).

If RDM was offered better melee gear or better at healing, it could freely switch at no cost to its performance other than an inferior sub job.

As I've said, that's the problem with RDM. Different RDMs want it to be great at different things and some RDMs want it to be great at everything simultaneously. When Scholar and Rune Fencer were announced, there were several RDMs saying "RDM should have these things" each time.

I don't know what kind of content you're clearing as a whole but you mention being able to hit all Escha T1s. Is that pretty much what you're clearing? No judgment either way but when talking about RDM accuracy issues, I'm thinking a bit higher where even focused melee have some problems hitting.

As for rdm tanking? You might give RDM/BLU a shot. I LOVE PLD/BLU and love RUN/BLU. You will probably (I don't know) need time to establish hate but between RDM's fast cast and always having Haste II, this shouldn't be that bad. Jettataura and Geist Wall are your bread and butter. Soporofic, Sheep Song, and Stinking Gas are also good. All but Jettataura are aoe but they do no damage (even if they do randomly land) so you run no risk of waking sleeping mobs.

I'd try to design sets that I was PDT capped even while casting. Unmoving Collar +1's 10 Enmity is a great piece.

For a tanking set I'd probably start with this. If I'm remembering the stats on these items right, this is above 50% PDT (assuming 6% dark ring, allowing some flux) and capping MDT could be done with other slots. Have several sets though because sometimes MDT is not an important consideration.

Mafic Cudgel*3 / Genbu Shield*1
??? / Twilight Toruqe*2 / Genmei Earring / ???
??? / ??? / Dark Ring / Defending Ring
??? / Flume Belt / ??? / ??? (Medium's Sabots, maybe?)

1. If you can get a group for Escha Genbu, get that shield. Defense on shields matters more than other pieces of gear. It affects how much the shield blocks for. Granted, you're not going to block often, but, when you do, you want to block more. Otherwise old Genbu's shield is fine. Genmei earring also comes from new Genbu and is -2% PDT.

2. If you can get a +1 Loricate torque, more power to you.

3. I know, you're probably thinking "RDM's club skill is terrible", but most of the time my PLD's accuracy is terrible. Survival above Accuracy.

I also have no idea how well an RDM/RUN or RDM/PLD (inferior, but Sentinel) would hold hate.

Are you going to kill anything big with it? Probably not since damage mitigation (relevant dt capping/resisting) is core to tanking nowadays, while maximizing other stats like hp, enmty, etc.

You clearly play for different reasons than I do. Neither are necessary wrong but sometimes we can be oil and water.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

I am not trying to flame you or to disparage you in any fashion now or at any point in this thread.

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And it is not you as a person I have any qualms with. Litterally at all. As you said, oil and water. I simply don't agree with effiency playstyle. I don't like effect I've seen it have on people over the years. I've seen it turn people into something terrible and I can't agree with what it does even on the passive level.

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That's not true though. If you carry a melee through content that they don't have the accuracy to hit, were they adequate for it? No, being adequate means contributing a fair amount, whether it be in healing, tanking, or damage-done.

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Again, the only measurement for success of a group is pass/fail. A person being carried is the issue of a player's preparation and balance. It's best to title it as a semantics debate and leave it at that, but here's the mental breakdown from my perspective so we don't confuse one another.

Adequate - Meets the pass/fail check.
Worthwhile - A subjective value above Adaquate where the performance is deemed welcome among their peers.
Optimal - Known as the best combination among the local meta.

What you're arguing for, in my view, isn't adequate, it's worthwhile.

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I just more take the attitude that if we wait for things to change, we'll be waiting a long time. I can both clear content with my efficient group and come here and keep reminding SE that balance and mechanics are severely broken.

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While you do that, I'm encouraging those to explore the lesser end of the broken mechanics to fully flush out once shining parts of off meta classes, and what unique aspects of these jobs were/are attractive and how to make them a highlight of the class. The more the class is explored, the more accurate feedback we can give on that per-class basis. Meanwhile doing so also means players play the jobs they're truly passionate about more. To be flat out honest, the most the Melee group has to do right now is skillchain, which means any two melee that can do it consistently, can be worthwhile.

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Playing RUN doesn't frustrate me, but I can understand why you read it that way. I didn't finish my thought and I don't know why. I must have gotten distracted. My apologies. It's frustrating to try to respect RUN for what it is when presently, there's not a whole lot of fights that bringing my PLD for just doesn't feel like the better option. I also don't fully understand some aspects of RUN.

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Ah, my mistake for reading then. The case in point, however is that I'd still pick up the argument with you of playing something you dislike.

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I don't know, there seems to be two modes in XI. You can either steamroll content or struggle with it. Sometimes, even the optimum setup is still only a chance to win. I kill some things that I don't have to bring a Burtgang paladin to but--at the same time--why wouldn't I? Why not make it easier on my friends.

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If you took your paladin to owning a Burtgang, you obviously enjoy it. There's no conflict here. The conflict is making it an expectation that you're always the one 'taking it for the team'. I won't do that and won't expect anyone else to do that. If and when I find another class that I genuinely like and find worth the investment to gear, then that adds to what I do. A job's effectiveness alone cannot be the sole reason to play it. There has to be an adequate measure of enjoyment in it too, or you risk draining a person's passion for the game/group/activity and losing them - which is not only bad for that person, if playing a job they enjoyed more would have gotten them to stay, but demoralizing to your group, especially if that optimal class was a clutch one for your composition.

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That's probably an important difference between you and I and I'm not trying to say anything badly about you with this: I get enjoyment out of doing as much as I can for the group. Doing everything I can to make sure that we win. Your enjoyment is different, you don't mind a struggle if it means the outset is more fun. I guess once I've killed an NM one or five times, the battle itself stops being fun.

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I feel as if I derive more enjoyment from taking something that is initially a struggle, and refine it through teamwork and tactics. This also makes it more fun as the class and group progresses both statistically, and in comfort with each other, to revisit and apply what we've learned additionally. To crush something with overwhelming force means there is no real refinement process: The fight becomes routine much quicker, the game's fun burns out faster.

This is no mean to be insulting, but I liken it to playing a game with Cheat Codes on. Sure, you get through faster, you get to the end and can move onto the next level - but you're done and it doesn't feel as fun as when you struggled through the game without them.

Case in point. If you ever say, get laid up sick or have time on your hands with an emulator... try to beat the original Contra without the Konami code. Its an entirely different experience.


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(( making a break as this is now two conversations))

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I believe you said before that you don't heal on RDM, as a personal choice and I don't blame you. Healing is probably RDM's weakest role right now. While I don't think very highly of RDM melee, a melee RDM is only possibly slower. It probably won't lead to a wipe, though it might lead to a timeout.

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Actually I tend to find Red Mage's melee, when properly geared, will outpace its nuking over time. But the truth is, that's because there's supposed to be no conflict between them. A Red Mage going full on damage, as opposed to support/damage, should be bursting as well as WSing. However, typically support damage winds up being faster due to how quickly TP is built up. Better geared RDMs than me have made me aware that Red Mage has the potential for continuous self skill-chain. Support/Damage is typically the approach I fall into.

It seems to me that you're unaware of a lot of what Red Mage has at its disposal. Red Mage can cap healing bonus without a weapon, as well as gain (and break, if my source is correct) Magic Burst Bonus cap. We sit on a large amount of Magical Accuracy bonuses even before gear thanks to gifts, which assists in a lot of what we do.

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You made your affinity for melee RDM known and I assumed since you still talked about versatility that you were also nuking. If the boss can be enfeebled, and you have an RDM there, it's an RDM you want enfeebling.

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Depending on the RDM, really. If a backline RDM isn't 550, then I end up overwriting their debuffs with my higher versions. If people are bleeding, I try to help heal, especially if healing isn't doing so well. My gear is finally getting to the point where I can attempt some MB too, even without a staff/club on hand. When I play frontline, I try to spot and fill the gaps in the party. Knowing how and when to react often makes the difference between dead party members, and a more quickly dead mob.

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I am aware of RDM's hypothetical versatility as I said before when I said that if SE makes RDM too good at too many aspects, the dynamics of the class could make it so that an RDM/DRK is only a separate macro book away from being useful on the frontline or the backline. SCH is unlikely to be able to hop between roles mid fight effectively due to stratagems and BLU has a 1 minute cooldown and spell points on it. It also probably wants to change weapons when its role changes (though an RDM would too).

If RDM was offered better melee gear or better at healing, it could freely switch at no cost to its performance other than an inferior sub job.

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I haven't re-explored RDM/DRK since returning, but much of what you're saying in theory is already proven true. Red Mage does not lack for gear, honestly. The difficulty is that Red Mage has to slice through the stat vomit more particularly than other classes and razor focus on what they do.

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As I've said, that's the problem with RDM. Different RDMs want it to be great at different things and some RDMs want it to be great at everything simultaneously. When Scholar and Rune Fencer were announced, there were several RDMs saying "RDM should have these things" each time.

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And I'm in a unique position to know why. Red Mages made continual suggestions on how to improve various aspects of the class over the years. In the course of the game, we watched our suggestions, verbatim, be taken and applied to new jobs rather than an update to Red mage itself. The Emphasis on adaptable Hybrid role, Light/Dark Caster Modes, Aura style buffs to cut down on the repeat cast time, and even a caster-style tank. All wound up in new jobs. That left the community rather bitter.

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I don't know what kind of content you're clearing as a whole but you mention being able to hit all Escha T1s. Is that pretty much what you're clearing? No judgment either way but when talking about RDM accuracy issues, I'm thinking a bit higher where even focused melee have some problems hitting.

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Yes. My standard is simple: Where Melee are welcome to hit, a Red Mage can stand on the front lines with them. (gear permitting) And this is true statistically. The accuracy issue isn't one that Red Mage suffers before Melee do. Right now I have enough for Apex Crabs (though I prefer to solo raptors than deal with 2 hr wait shout parties and argue for my place). Accuracy is not something Red Mage wants for more than other Melee jobs, they just need to know where they're gearing it, some of it is pretty hard to reach.

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As for rdm tanking? You might give RDM/BLU a shot. I LOVE PLD/BLU and love RUN/BLU. You will probably (I don't know) need time to establish hate but between RDM's fast cast and always having Haste II, this shouldn't be that bad. Jettataura and Geist Wall are your bread and butter. Soporofic, Sheep Song, and Stinking Gas are also good. All but Jettataura are aoe but they do no damage (even if they do randomly land) so you run no risk of waking sleeping mobs.

I'd try to design sets that I was PDT capped even while casting. Unmoving Collar +1's 10 Enmity is a great piece.

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I did recently hear discussions about /BLU for enmity generation as well as defense. It may be something to check out.

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For a tanking set I'd probably start with this. If I'm remembering the stats on these items right, this is above 50% PDT (assuming 6% dark ring, allowing some flux) and capping MDT could be done with other slots. Have several sets though because sometimes MDT is not an important consideration.

Mafic Cudgel*3 / Genbu Shield*1
??? / Twilight Toruqe*2 / Genmei Earring / ???
??? / ??? / Dark Ring / Defending Ring
??? / Flume Belt / ??? / ??? (Medium's Sabots, maybe?)

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Medium's don't provide PDT, but that slot is good for Battlecast Gaiters and other such.

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1. If you can get a group for Escha Genbu, get that shield. Defense on shields matters more than other pieces of gear. It affects how much the shield blocks for. Granted, you're not going to block often, but, when you do, you want to block more. Otherwise old Genbu's shield is fine. Genmei earring also comes from new Genbu and is -2% PDT.

2. If you can get a +1 Loricate torque, more power to you.

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Some of this will likely be merced for the sake of simplicity, my solo ventures typically are attempts to get pop items to lower that cost.

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3. I know, you're probably thinking "RDM's club skill is terrible", but most of the time my PLD's accuracy is terrible. Survival above Accuracy.

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Actually I was thinking that my Claidheamh Soluis is just sitting there in inventory where I could be augmenting it for Physical damage Reduction. There's more than 5% missing in the ??? sections of the set you have listed so I can have a Sword if I want to mix and match. Club is good though.

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I also have no idea how well an RDM/RUN or RDM/PLD (inferior, but Sentinel) would hold hate.

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Not well, I would think. What Red mage really lacks for is consistent hate tools and they have none natively. Lower level PLD and RUN will use hate tools from other jobs to facilitate their existing ones, but without them, hate becomes difficult. As it's applied as a subjob, I would have the hate effectiveness of a lower level PLD and RUN without an appropriate subjob.

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Are you going to kill anything big with it? Probably not since damage mitigation (relevant dt capping/resisting) is core to tanking nowadays, while maximizing other stats like hp, enmty, etc.

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No but you've given me a route to attempt. A lot of my problems of late has been the fact that I'm reaching the limit of what Trust Tanks can do for me.

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You clearly play for different reasons than I do. Neither are necessary wrong but sometimes we can be oil and water.

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And I have no problems bowing out of gameplay when it means my playstyle will hamper the enjoyment of others. Though, I'm finding out that it's not as common as I would think, which is reassuring.

Seriously, give it a rest. You've both made points I agree with, and both have made points I don't agree with. But this has devolved into a flame war that seems to be more of a contest of who can make their point in 900 words or more. I'm sure I'm not the only one that stopped reading a while ago. If you haven't made your points by now, then you're probably not going to.

If you're going to continue to argue, at least be courteous enough to keep them short. Otherwise, maybe bring up a different job balance topic to talk about.

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Originally Posted by Shyles

Seriously, give it a rest. You've both made points I agree with, and both have made points I don't agree with. But this has devolved into a flame war that seems to be more of a contest of who can make their point in 900 words or more. I'm sure I'm not the only one that stopped reading a while ago. If you haven't made your points by now, then you're probably not going to.

If you're going to continue to argue, at least be courteous enough to keep them short. Otherwise, maybe bring up a different job balance topic to talk about.

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Actually I rather liked his last post. This was more sharing information back and forth than arguing. Conversations, like players, can progress even through difficult stints with a bit of persistence and understanding.

My impression is that other than some misunderstandings folks have been respectful. Interesting convo!

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Originally Posted by CrAZYVIC

Yeah you are right. The game its fine

Its fine Geo made obsolete RDM, BRD and COR for support
iTs fine people use BLM - SCH - GEO to kill content LV135 +
Its fine mele jobs get one shoted on -50% damage taken reduction gear on content LV135+
Its fine since Rudra's storm update the two-handers, Ranger, MNK are obsolete jobs
Its fine the people shout for BLU only no matter if you have a mythic WAR, SAM or DRK.

So i hope square enix delay this fix for two hander jobs 2 or 3 years. So we can go down of 30k players to 5k anyways FF14 have nearly 800k players so the future of FF11 can go to the hell right? np!

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My comment was about the "nothing beats blu in parse" crap, but let's take a look at your comment.

Also the "blu CDC spam" is an absolute terrible way to kill things, chaining your sc even 1 more step to a double light is a much faster kill speed. This was proven during the koga vs rudra times. Koga sam solo could kill faster than a thf spamming 30-50k rudra because of the sc dmg, a good sam was able to roll out 6step and hit 99999 light sc. The other option was for the sam and thf to work together to have thf close double darkness, those were far more effective ways to kill. Doesn't even need to end with cdc, when I drk and we take a blu I don't finish the ws even though I ws harder because the chain sc dmg does more with the blu closing with savage blade.

We ran VD ambuscade probably a few hundred times now, cdc and reso spam was literally the slowest run we had avg over 3 minute engage time per run. So we switched the dd to chain blu and drk ws with blu closing savage blade. Dropped our engaged time down to about 90 seconds. Then we switched to me solo on drk just running double light sc, scourge/reso/torc 3 times and killed it in about 60 seconds per engaged time. Seriously chain your ws, working together works far better than the lone ranger cdc spam. Sad, most blu don't even have AoE spells or nuke sets, can't tell you how many blu I have seen that ONLY have tp and cdc sets, no heal, no fast cast, no nuke sets, no idle, no -dt, just tp and cdc. People abusing a fighting style that isn't done right to begin with, much less not that grand.

If you are getting oneshotted on melee in -50% dt gear you shouldn't be messing with that content, you aren't ready for it. I seriously don't see how that is remotely possible to be oneshotted in -50 dt gear.

As for "mythic war, sam, drk" first off none of those jobs should be using mythic anymore. The speed of fights don't work with the need to build up AM3, secondly drk and war's best weapons is actually Ragnarok, relic, Sam should be using Aeonic or relic if the acc is needed. However you can get by and still do t3 reisenjima nms without r/e/m just take the time to build your gear for acc. I have personally pushed out 30k torcleaver before I made AG rag/apoc using macbain.

Mnk was never supposed to be a main DD, it wasn't designed that way, look at the job abilities of jobs and you will know what jobs are supposed to be on top.

Rng is not obsolete, make a trueflight set and get in a group with a cor, geo and a have each person pop AoE tp wings you can bomb things with trueflight.

Drg is shafted in dmg, my rdm/nin beats drg just spamming cdc/savage

Which is another problem enfeebling is utterly useless now, and with sch and blm getting myrkr there is no need for refresh 3. Nobody cares about haste 2 enough to bring a rdm, therefore rdm is shafted. However rdm may not be the best at any 1 thing, I have main healed (only healer) an ally on 128 incursion as rdm/sch, 132 main healed a vagary, if it is possible to heal 18 people in 128 I am sure a rdm can heal 135 content in a pt of 6. Rdm might not be the best nuker, but it can still hit 60k in decent gear, 70k+ in great gear. I wouldn't be surprised to see a rdm hit 80k+ honestly, and rdm gets extremely high m. acc. To top all that off, a r/e/m/a rdm can put out some serious dmg in melee, while they are not top dog in parse like war and drk are, they can spam the crap out of sc and MB off themselves and hit the 1200 acc everyone screams for so often. So rdm isn't entirely shafted.

Brd, well let's face it, the last time brd was used was when delve first came out, geo is the new brd and is seriously over powered. Very few complain about geo being needed for literally everything, and even more broken with idris.

Cor is not dead, in fact I got all my t3/4 wins on cor. Even WoC has cor's thrown at it all the time.

About 2 months ago I was hearing how my leveling drk and making rag/apoc was a waste of time, nothing beats a blu. I refused to believe it, now my ls only lets me come drk for more than half the content we do.

Yes I still have to get on sch for 145 content, some 135 content depending on who is online, but we have learned it is just as effective to super buff a sole 2hd DD and obliterate anything 135 and lower.

Yeah, it sucks I can't go drk and rdm to literally everything in the game, but I will stick to my guns in saying 2 months ago I sat in your seat saying the same thing, game is unfair, game is unbalanced. only blu, geo, sch, blm for all fights. Well that is only true on special occasions,
#1) you have a crappy group that you shouldn't be with that thinks only blu for dd
#2) you don't have good enough gear to be in the content level you are in
#3) 145+ content, (not much to say there, that is mage set up)

The only jobs truly getting shafted would be brd and drg. Maybe mnk, but mnk was designed as an eva/counter tank, the only jobs that can beat it in hp is hq sovereign pld/war or a drain 3 drk. Mnk was in the limelight as a DD for entirely too long, not even its role.

The only adjustments that are really lacking in endgame content is the nm eva or the nm AoE in 145 content, a way to bring back brd and raise on drg DD, while fixing rdm role back to enfeeble/enhance, spells like virus, plague, confuse, reflect would help here, but still needs a huge raise in enfeeble potency as well as the ability to land enfeebles without ele seal, 1600 m. acc a geo, rdm 1hr, sabo, elite level gear spamming immunobreak.

FF14 having 800k people I find hard to believe since they let slip about a year ago they were down to about 500k subscribers across 3 online games, that and more than 100k people were online streaming the future of ffxi back in march of last year I think it was (don't quote me on that date). Now while i doubt 100k people are on ffxi, I still would like to know where you got your numbers.

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Originally Posted by Thorva

mnk was designed as an eva/counter tank, the only jobs that can beat it in hp is hq sovereign pld/war or a drain 3 drk. Mnk was in the limelight as a DD for entirely too long, not even its role.

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Legitimately, what?

Hey, I loved counterstance at 75, but everybody I knew then called it trash but I don't recall monk tanking anything of note before Abyssea, besides Salvage. Unlike how somebody had to say in every party that "Ninja was supposed to be the DD, and SAM the tank".

It tanked abyssea because it did good damage, had the highest HP, people were starting to appreciate the value of counter, and Paladins couldn't hold hate. Towards mid-abyssea, a decent monk and whm could duo almost everything.

I started just before ToAU so I never got to play in a bones party, but I'm told monks tanked them (blunt damage, skeletons, good stuff).

The problem with Counterstance is and always was that you can't counter TP moves and have floored defense for said TP Moves so it was on luck or shadows whether you survived an attack outside abyssea.

Yeah, I've said a few times that one of my best memories was CS-tanking Charby on mnk/nin, but I didn't go there with the intent, the ninja was just really awfully bad. Even knowing that I could do it, I never went back with the intent to do it again.

Monk didnt just tank a bones party...they WERE the party...lol... 5 mnks and a rdm!

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Legitimately, what?

Hey, I loved counterstance at 75, but everybody I knew then called it trash but I don't recall monk tanking anything of note before Abyssea, besides Salvage. Unlike how somebody had to say in every party that "Ninja was supposed to be the DD, and SAM the tank".

It tanked abyssea because it did good damage, had the highest HP, people were starting to appreciate the value of counter, and Paladins couldn't hold hate. Towards mid-abyssea, a decent monk and whm could duo almost everything.

I started just before ToAU so I never got to play in a bones party, but I'm told monks tanked them (blunt damage, skeletons, good stuff).

The problem with Counterstance is and always was that you can't counter TP moves and have floored defense for said TP Moves so it was on luck or shadows whether you survived an attack outside abyssea.

Yeah, I've said a few times that one of my best memories was CS-tanking Charby on mnk/nin, but I didn't go there with the intent, the ninja was just really awfully bad. Even knowing that I could do it, I never went back with the intent to do it again.

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I had this huge thing typed out going on and on about a bunch of crap, decided to delete it seemed a bit excessive.

Anyway, counterstance does suck, a mnk can tank just like anything else out there with -dt and enmity. Rdm did it wonderfully pre-tranq heart and can still do it with the right gear. Mnk does it fine with enmity gear and actions. People just naturally wore -dt gear on pld and not as much on mnk, therefore it only tanked in times were mnk could be considered op. I.E. Weakness to blunt, Abyssea, and Delve, abyssea due to atma, and delve due to mantra/formless strikes.

As for nin is a DD and sam is a tank, I have heard that myself, but truth be told I don't know about those, both have tank (shadows/third eye) and DD aspects to them (nin attack speed, ws and ability to MB, sam with sTP, ws spike dmg and chaining of ws)

I said mnk was in the limelight as a DD for far too long because it, like blu, shouldn't be competing with war, drk, drg for DD slots. War having customization choice to DD or tank.

Counterstance didn't suck, primarily because you can counter through shadows, just like you can parry through shadows.

The reason monk was a bad tank in most content at 75 is because you want defense you can rely on--you only gear chance stats once you're capped. IE, you only gear % absorbs/annuls magic damage once you're MDT capped. You only gear HP/Defense once you're PDT capped, when these respective types of damage are a concern.

At 75, and especially before late 75, the problem was that most -DT gear sucked. It sacrificed all other stats for abysmal numbers of -DT and usually it was just -PDT or MDT. Great, your "monk tank" is now pdt-capped (well, good PDT) but it can't hit so it's never going to hold hate (since damage done was part of monk's enmity).

Now, it's a different game. I don't know what monk can or cannot tank these days because I never see anyone good on it because the job is in a bad spot.

I think monk should be competitive with top-end DD now that the aby days are over (even though it was top DD and top tank in aby). I think, as I've said in other threads, it would be great to see it return as high damage-over-time, and while capable of ws'ing, made not ws-dependent. I think that would be good for the meta.

Counterstance did suck, does suck and always will suck.

It did suck in the past because it was so entirely difficult to cap counter in the 75 era, while absolutely destroying your own def.
Currently sucks because even if you cap counter rate it won't do anything for the tp moves oh nms with much higher levels of attack and dmg with the def being so low.
Counterstance will always suck because SE won't remove the -def of it.

Counter by itself is great, but you can also rely on guarding. No need to put all your eggs in one basket. Want to tank on mnk, fine load up on enmity -dt gear and counter gear, no need to use counterstance. Just one of those abilities at is a waste. Same concept of why "drk always dies" or "drk always misses" that is only true if you play and gear to die and miss.

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Originally Posted by Thorva

Counterstance did suck, does suck and always will suck.

It did suck in the past because it was so entirely difficult to cap counter in the 75 era, while absolutely destroying your own def.
Currently sucks because even if you cap counter rate it won't do anything for the tp moves oh nms with much higher levels of attack and dmg with the def being so low.
Counterstance will always suck because SE won't remove the -def of it.

Counter by itself is great, but you can also rely on guarding. No need to put all your eggs in one basket. Want to tank on mnk, fine load up on enmity -dt gear and counter gear, no need to use counterstance. Just one of those abilities at is a waste. Same concept of why "drk always dies" or "drk always misses" that is only true if you play and gear to die and miss.

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See, I didn't and don't see it that way. So much of the stuff hit pld (unblocked, without -dt!) and a samurai or monk for the same amount of damage. Defense at 75 just wasn't an impressive stat against high level NMs (I still ate my tacos, used defender, made sure protect was on). TP moves were more dangerous but that's okay because monk was never meant to be a tank from anything I've ever heard. It was a great tank in Abyssea, but if enmity had worked in abyssea, people would have still liked to have PLDs and NINs there.

And of course, you didn't just throw up CS if you weren't the hate target. Served absolutely no good in that situation. Delve NMs? Was no need, and probably would have been a bad idea. But CS between 75 and Adoulin got a far worse wrap than it deserved.