It isn't just SE though, there is a battle within the videogame culture as a whole, between those who see videogames as legitimate works of Art, and those who see videogames as a disposable and purely commercial venture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vold
The mainstream trend is that games are purely commercial, they are not works of Art. It is normal to just cannibalise the best parts from previous games, and put them into a new one.
This is the result of the high rate of change in game technology over the last 30 years, tech is almost immediately obsolescent and self-devouring, and somewhere along the way, game developers assumed that this must always apply to software too.
Novelty is good, new games are good, remakes of old games are good. But there needs to be a point when we collectively stop and say "wait a moment, this is no ordinary game, this particular game is a Masterpiece, it is something very special and unique." This is what happens in all other forms of entertainment, especially painting, music, movies. We need this recognition of Masterpieces in videogaming too.
FFXI is a Masterpiece, a classic, a true work of Art. It was created by geniuses. It should be treated with great respect, and preserved for future generations.
If you look at how Masterpiece paintings are treated and restored, everybody has to wear white gloves and respirators, and treat the masterpiece with almost holy reverence. And nobody says "hey we've got these new 2015 pictures from Photoshop now, so lets just burn all those old Masterpieces by Monet and Picasso, they are so old!"
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11-09-2015, 07:59 AMStompa
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11-09-2015, 08:09 AMMithlas
People love to say "but multi-million dollar company!" I hope you guys take into account how much has to be spent to pay employees, their benefits, taxes, maintenance of their own infrastructure as well as the utilities to keep their locations operating, etc. It's not cheap. Yes, they are a multi-million dollar company, but decisions have to be made for the better to keep the company growing and pursuing future interests. You always want to have a profit - you don't want to break even and you definitely don't want to have a negative ROI from something. They can't hold on to a dated piece of software and keep it growing for such a smaller market.
There has to come a point in time where, no matter how loved the game is and how respected it is by fans, that they simply need to move on. -
11-09-2015, 10:02 AMAlhanelemThose masterpieces don't need content updates and feature changes to continue existing or being appriciated, though. It's a poor analogy.Quote:
If you look at how Masterpiece paintings are treated and restored, everybody has to wear white gloves and respirators, and treat the masterpiece with almost holy reverence. And nobody says "hey we've got these new 2015 pictures from Photoshop now, so lets just burn all those old Masterpieces by Monet and Picasso, they are so old!"
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11-09-2015, 11:40 AMbungiefanNA
It's a huge risk to keep FFXI going because the competition and market tastes have changed, and old MMOs don't attract new players much over time. WoW, the most successful MMORPG ever, is fading and having trouble keeping new subscriptions. The population that joined the game at launch gradually ages and has less free time to play, which causes server populations to drop, which causes more people to leave. The big draw of an MMO is that you may have frieds that play, or you make friends when you start, and you stick with the game for them. If enough of the group leaves for something else, most of the rest of the group will follow. Attracting attention to something so old, that is obviously old, is a hard thing for marketing to do. You'd have to invest a ton of money on a regular basis to rework and relaunch the game every so often to keep it fresh and looking new for new players. Knowing that, it's easy to see why they didn't take the actions we wish they did.
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11-09-2015, 01:52 PMStompaActually it was not an analogy. It was a description. I am describing videogames as an Artform, no different to other Artforms. In all forms of Art there are Masterpieces. Those works are protected and cherished as valuable Human Achievements. I consider high-quality videogames to be both an Artform and a Human Achievement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Infact many Masterpieces do have updates, paintings are restored and maintained, old music classics are reworked with digital technology, classic books are released again as Second Editions, often with alterations and improvements. A broken dusty vase is not displayed as such, it is restored as much as possible, so that people can appreciate the Mastery that went into that piece.
And this is so that future generations can continue to appreciate them, to use your phrase.
Obviously videogames are different, and it would be pedantic to demand that every Art medium has to have identical functionality, just to make descriptive statements about relative Quality and Masterpiece status. -
11-10-2015, 03:40 AMRoja323
Except they already did that, it was called FF14 v1.0, and it wasn't as popular as direhard fans had hoped.
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11-11-2015, 07:27 AMAtomic_SkullShadows, as well as loading zones and models are much faster when you remove the FPS cap. They fixed a lot of stuff that was previously locked to the FPS (enough that the game can actually run normally with the cap removed) when they did the fishing speed adjustments (fishing ran faster on the PC than on the PS2 for many years) but a few things were left still locked to the framerate apparently to be "fair" to PS2 users.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Hopefully with PS2 support ending they'll change the last few remaining framerate limited things to interrupts. Removing the FPS cap would be nice too (I never expected them to support Xinpit controllers EVER so there's hope)
Maybe they could just ditch DirectX 8 and switch to DirectX 9 as well. I mean just replace DX8 with DX9 so that windows doesn't have to use the DirectX wrapper it uses to support DX8. It's actually not that hard to do, mostly just a matter of replacing DirectX 8 calls with DirectX 9 ones (DX8 and DX8 are very similar unlike DX9 vs DX10 which is a complete change in how the rendering pipeline works) -
11-17-2015, 02:09 AMrhapsodyXI
Isn't there some way they could preserve *this* version of the game on PC at least? I know it's a ridiculous idea/countering the profits they could make, but it just feels bad that a mainstream title/numeral game (I dunno if mainstream title/numeral means anything anymore) is just going off the blip and surfacing on mobile (the remakes of other mainstream FF games non-included and some are on PC I believe?).
Couldn't they or someone possibly, maybe not completely rework the game, but just make it function offline? (Not something like a private server but then again idk).
The Trust system at least makes soloing viable for a majority of content and some puzzles and traps that required people to do (like stepping on platforms, stuff like that y'know) just require a key item from a sidequest or mission.
In a year people will probably be playing the mobile version, whatever it may end being like. It'd be a shame that when the games finally shuts down in a few years what fans get is a "goodbye and enjoy the mobile version :^)". -
11-17-2015, 05:56 AMAlhanelemRemoving an FPS cap doesn't have any effect if your current FPS is lower than that cap. *head explodes*Quote:
Shadows, as well as loading zones and models are much faster when you remove the FPS cap.
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11-17-2015, 02:58 PMbungiefanNATo make the game function offline would either require a private server, or require them to recode the game, because the client doesn't do any calculations or control any NPC actions. The client just displays the graphics and audio and relays our commands to the server. So for the game to function offline, everything the server does must be offloaded to your computer, which means you have to run two applications (and the server application likely isn't on Windows anyway), or they'd have to recode the game application to do all those functions. Also, the servers have much more RAM and CPU power, and it's actually several servers running each world, since monsters are always active even when nobody is in the zone, and the in-game clock is always running, so they'd have to code it to only process certain things instead of every NPC in the game to work on a standard consumer machine. At that point they'd essentially be making the game from scratch, which is what they're doing with FFXI mobile. It's a huge investment, and they make more money just continuing to collect subscriptions.Quote:
Originally Posted by rhapsodyXI
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11-17-2015, 09:26 PMpeculiar
On the positive side there will always be fans who continue to keep the games alive privately.
Even if Square shuts down XI, it will still exist to be playable. Same as XIV v1 is. -
11-18-2015, 12:08 AMElexiaBiggest problem: a lot of them don't care for certain content so they don't even bother coding it. So realistically, you would need SE to release XI's source if you truly want it to be kept alive. In all reality the only reason they won't preserve XI is because of XIV. There's no way to get around that fact - if XIV wasn't their current baby, they'd have done everything to streamline or modernize XI because no company would get rid of a product or let it die if it prints as much money as XI did. Keeping it around wouldn't be a risk, they simply would have to dedicate the time and money to bringing XI "up to code" and they don't want to. Maybe once XIV continues it's trend and pushes most of its players away eventually they'll think about it. I mean, XI somehow manages to offers content and systems it's "sibling" XIV doesn't and seemingly can't based on recent interviews, so in all honesty, I think SE will have plans for XI, just not yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by peculiar
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11-18-2015, 01:34 AMpeculiarYes, if not for xiv xi would never of been allowed to get into the state it is, that is unquestionable. Money would of been allocated and it would of been pushed forward with enhanced graphics and whatever else it needed just as wow was. They also realize they are direct competition for each other so buffing xi when xiv has a cash shop is not something they really want to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
Why is XIV more important to them now? Well it costs a lot more in upkeep than xi ever could, it's not even more popular in real terms than what xi was before it was left to stagnate. So what could it be... oh yes of course, it's because just like mobile games it's less of an mmo and more of a virtual shopping mall. All those hundreds of "optional items" or micro-transactions really make the difference in their profitability going forward.
The profits from a cosmetic that cost a few hundred dollars to make and that can be duplicated infinity is incredible, they started off cheap and are now pushing upto $20 each. This is the real reason xiv has the limelight and xi is being put into the cupboard.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...e-piece-outfit
Irregardless my hope is that Square wises up and sees that at this point in time they have milked as many xi players that would goto xiv as possible and instead of losing us as a customer base they properly support this game to keep us around. They don't need to upgrade the graphics, I know that will cause issues with xiv but they do need to treat their xi players with respect...or lose them. As I say, most of us that are still here are not going to transition and they need to realize that. -
11-18-2015, 09:00 AMElexiaIt's common sense and business practice - XI generated SE the most funds, of any project, continously. No company would shrug that off and would do whatever it takes to maintain that or even have it generate more. You seen the lengths they went to for XIV alone. Now...extrapolate that to a project already earning them over a billion+ yen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stompa
Incorrect - Moving a game to a new engine or even dedicated platform can come at any time it'd be viable to and possible to do - Meaning if XIV wasn't their forefront focus, it'd have a better chance because instead of dedicating the resources they are to a new mmo that requires much more allocation, it would go to a preexisting one. The only thing we personally don't know is if they started to revamp XI (think about all the core changes the past 4 years) but can't go about it due to various reasons.Quote:
The decison to re-build FFXI away from consoles and onto PC-only, would have needed to occur much earlier in the game's lifetime.
XI exists because they wanted to step into the MMO realm after being inspired by EverQuest - It makes no sense to say that a 2nd FF MMO was inevitable when they already took both main series into the MMO world (Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy.) XIV could have been an offline title or even a new tactics title, for example.Quote:
The only reason FFXI existed in the first place, was that SE are constantly adding to the Final Fantasy series, always looking to add another Roman Numeral to the list, lol. So FFXIV was inevitable.
So in all actuality, it's nothing to do with XIV as a game itself..it's the simple fact of the matter: What MMO would you dedicate resources to, especially given the circumstances? FFXI or FFXIV? Even DQX has slowed development a bit when XIV revved up (since Yoshida was the lead designer for it after all.) So think about that: If XIV hadn't come around, 2007-2010 could have been ample time to enhance and even port XI over, instead of wasting hundreds of millions on XIV 1.0, then later 2.0. That extra income wouldn't have gone to many other projects that wasn't already being developed or going to be developed because the MMO division (3?) doesn't work on offline titles. -
11-18-2015, 01:51 PMmachini
Stompa, the point is that they had the resources, in time, money, and programmers, to move XI from PS2 and PC to solely PC, and give it a graphical update, and an updated UI. They had years to do this, but instead of putting money back into XI, they shoved money into the bottomless pit that was XIV 1.0. And then, instead of just letting XIV die, they continued to neglect their other MMO, the one that actually was making them lots of money, and diverted even more money to a game that had already failed, in large part due to the fact that it wasn't XI 2.0, which was what the majority of players who played Squeenix MMOs wanted.
They made XI to ride the EQ bandwagon, and much like how EQ is still going strong nearly 16 years later, XI still exists. Unlike EQ, however, XI got abandoned and neglected and languished for years, all because WoW came out, and Squeenix wanted to jump on the WoW bandwagon with XIV. They just forgot that everyone who wanted to play WoW was already playing it, and everyone who wanted to play a Final Fantasy MMO was already on XI. -
11-19-2015, 08:37 AMAtomic_SkullI think it should be abundantly clear by now that Square Enix is a company that makes bad choices. Poor decision making like that is the reason they are struggling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vold