Please don't nerf beastmaster

If you don't understand why comparing magic pet damage to melee dd damage is a bad comparison, you have fully demonstrated your lack of insight.

We weren't talking about magic vs. melee; we were talking about the throughput of BST vs. a different job.

Are BLMs killing it as solo DDs now? Are SCHs self-MBing and not dying?

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Originally Posted by machini

DNC is actually doing just fine. Rudra's Storm getting nerfed really didn't do much to DNC at all. I'd say more, but I don't want butthurt SAMs to get DNC nerfed.

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That part I already know. It's like i said earlier it only benefit DNC with mythic Dagger because they get a 30% increase in Pyrrhic Kleos. Not everyone has the gil to make over 200,000,000+ gil. It's not fair to casual player who can't afford to make mythic. If you have a LS that want your DNC in event than that's good but DNC will not get invite in shout and I don't think people want dnc on Vagary. People want job like rdm, geo, cor and bst at this point.

Since I play both job of THF and DNC i think THF is far better when your dealing with Urmahlulu T3 Escha NM. If your a mythic user than your over the top DD.

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Originally Posted by Ataraxia

That part I already know. It's like i said earlier it only benefit DNC with mythic Dagger because they get a 30% increase in Pyrrhic Kleos. Not everyone has the gil to make over 200,000,000+ gil. It's not fair to casual player who can't afford to make mythic. If you have a LS that want your DNC in event than that's good but DNC will not get invite in shout and I don't think people want dnc on Vagary. People want job like rdm, geo, cor and bst at this point.

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The reason DNC doesn't get invites to Vagary has nothing to do with its damage output. It's because melee is so vulnerable on bosses (the only things that live long enough for them to be good for) that you only want one for a self-SC, and while DNC's self-SC potential is great there's no reason to use one when SAM exists.

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Since I play both job of THF and DNC i think THF is far better when your dealing with Urmahlulu T3 Escha NM. If your a mythic user than your over the top DD.

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On what basis? Is THF bringing something other than a 3000 TP SA Rudra's closer, which is something DNC/SAM can not only do, but do better (2k TP > Sekka > PK > Evis > Reverse > Climactic > Rudra's, or just Evis > Reverse > Clim > Rudra's)?

Anyone who thinks DNC is not durable has not seen a DNC with capped MDT and overcapped PDT via fan dance.

There are plenty of things that will murder a DNC, just as there are plenty of things that will murder everything that's not a PLD or RUN, but DNC is capable of tanking and dealing damage at the same time.

The reason DNC doesn't get invited to things is the playerbase are full of idiots who don't understand how the job works and are incapable of following any strategy more complicated than "spam fudo"

I've seriously had people question whether or not a mythic DNC is even capable of dealing damage. Too many people in this game are "loldnc" players. And there are few things more enjoyable than watching a SAM throw a tantrum when I out-damage and out-tank them. Which was not hard to do without the mythic, and is trivially easy to do now.

We get it, you are desperate to save BST. You don't have to defend it so hard with silly claims that anyone can see through, the devs already know the situation atm and are responding.

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Originally Posted by Draylo-

We get it, you are desperate to save BST. You don't have to defend it so hard with silly claims that anyone can see through, the devs already know the situation atm and are responding.

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Dude, I'm not desperate to save BST. My BST is level 15.

What I am sick and tired of is people who don't know a job, don't play a job, don't understand the job, who see a job doing well, and throw a hissy fit and get it nerfed because they're bad players.

"oh hey this BST who has 100/+ million gil worth of gear, two different COR buffs, and GEO buff and debuff on target is outdamaging my sparks 117 SAM on 119/+ content. THIS IS NOT FAIR SAM IS THE BEST"

I also love how you're grinding BST levels in Abyssea La Theine right now.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Running around in Escha. MAB and -DT augments are giving me more AoE than a BLM with the survivability of a less-than-amazing-or-maybe-just-lazy PLD. It's dumb.

I don't think it's bad; it's a little annoying when I'm grinding silt but oh well, who cares? Reducing the single target via nerfing pet skillchains seems like a fair trade, though, which is all it sounds like they're planning on doing. I'm here to defend that decision.

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So you're idea of ruining game balance is being better than some jobs at killing Even match monsters? /smh

Yes, BLM can blow stuff up nonstop in escha just like bst. I do it all the time. I've actually been GMd twice by JP players for hogging all the pops on BLM and BLU. You pull out healer /support trusts, throw up stoneskin, aquaveil and phalanx, put on your movement+ gear, train a bunch of mobs, engage one until your healer trust cures back whatever damage you took during the pull and then aga them all. Just like beast. There are also better camps outside escha where BLM can just run around one shotting things even better CP than BST can get in escha.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Why?

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Because even if your NQ stones somehow got you near max augments, that magic damage set you described isn't gonna outparse any DD job on anything but farming fodder in escha. And even if it magically somehow did, your pet would just die without the DT- stats on your gear. You might as well say ninja is over powered because it can proc stuff in abyssea.

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Originally Posted by machini

"oh hey this BST who has 100/+ million gil worth of gear, two different COR buffs, and GEO buff and debuff on target is outdamaging my sparks 117 SAM on 119/+ content. THIS IS NOT FAIR SAM IS THE BEST"

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Except other jobs put the same amount of effort and gil into them.

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Originally Posted by Draylo-

Except other jobs put the same amount of effort and gil into them.

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And they do more damage.

but no, my monk, sam, thf, dnc, and rng were far cheaper to gear. My DT- set on BST cost more my SAM, MNK, THF and DNC combined. And my pet still doesn't outdamage them. It's just situationally safer. As was already stated, I'm screwed if the mob has curse, doom, break, etc.

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Originally Posted by machini

Dude, I'm not desperate to save BST. My BST is level 15.

What I am sick and tired of is people who don't know a job, don't play a job, don't understand the job, who see a job doing well, and throw a hissy fit and get it nerfed because they're bad players.

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Really seems like it man, you are posting multiple times in this thread over and over. People are allowed to give their opinion, even if its in opposition to what you think. The dev's know what they wanna do with the game. If you are implying I'm one of those people, then you are mistaken.

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Originally Posted by bazookatooth

And they do more damage.

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No they don't actually. If you mean to say in Escha that a geared to the max BST w/a tank present can't outparse over half of the DDs in the game all the while sitting back comfortably tossing pet heals, you don't know whats going on.

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Originally Posted by Draylo-

No they don't actually. If you mean to say in Escha that a geared to the max BST w/a tank present can't outparse over half of the DDs in the game all the while sitting back comfortably tossing pet heals, you are delusional.

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A geared to the max anything should be able to outparse half the other DDS. Why the hell would they want to build the game in a way that causes some jobs to suck no matter how well geared / played they are? That's stupid.

Okay, do I really have to spell everything out? A geared to the max BST vs geared to the max other jobs. It doesn't have to suck, it needs to just be toned down. Look at THF and what happened to them, seems SE already got the message and they are planning adjustments to BST.

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Because even if your NQ stones somehow got you near max augments, that magic damage set you described isn't gonna outparse any DD job on anything but farming fodder in escha. And even if it magically somehow did, your pet would just die without the DT- stats on your gear. You might as well say ninja is over powered because it can proc stuff in abyssea.

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I have basic DT stats.

I can only speak from my own experience; I went with MAB augs to try it and I don't want to bother making a physical stat set since that would involve getting a whole new set and spending more money I'd prefer to save. I'm sure it'd be just as easy to get Randy going if I did.

It ended up "costing" me a couple million in opportunity (I bank my NQs) to get 10+ MAB and some DT (duskorbs are rather expensive, even for NQs, so i wasn't picky) on six pieces. If I cared enough to spend 100 million gil to get, what, 50 more MAB and 15 more DT, I'm sure I'd feel compelled to defend the job, too.

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Originally Posted by Draylo-

Okay, do I really have to spell everything out? A geared to the max BST vs geared to the max other jobs. It doesn't have to suck, it needs to just be toned down. Look at THF and what happened to them, seems SE already got the message and they are planning adjustments to BST.

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Why? I'm not having any problems getting invited on literally any other job right now, but DNC or PUP. Isn't that the point of balance? So that people can enjoy the content on the jobs they like? It sounds to me like you just want your favorite job to be the best. What happened with THF was stupid. it didn't do anything but piss off a bunch of THFs. It didn't balance the game in the slightest.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

I have basic DT stats.

I can only speak from my own experience; I went with MAB augs to try it and I don't want to bother making a physical stat set since that would involve getting a whole new set and spending more money I'd prefer to save. I'm sure it'd be just as easy to get Randy going if I did.

It ended up "costing" me a couple million in opportunity (I bank my NQs) to get 10+ MAB and some DT (duskorbs are rather expensive, even for NQs, so i wasn't picky) on six pieces. If I cared enough to spend 100 million gil to get, what, 50 more MAB and 15 more DT, I'm sure I'd feel compelled to defend the job, too.

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And you're not going to even come close to out damaging anyone with that set, so your pretty much disproved your own theory.

BST shouldn't ever outparse a BLU, ever. That is the issue atm.

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Originally Posted by bazookatooth

And your not going to even come close to out damaging anyone with that set, so your pretty much disproved your own theory.

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I would shit all over anybody who half-assed their DD set as much as I did this one.

Meanwhile, the BSTs who DO put effort into their sets are upset they can't solo VD merit battlefields after the Spur fix and nobody seems bothered by this logic.

EDIT: A little perspective.

It used to be that if a BST were going to DD, he would melee alongside his pet, and his damage would maybe be competitive with another DD that was not heavily benefiting from buffs that would not apply to the pet. We can quibble about this if you want, but bear with me.

Now, the pets' scaling is so great, and the pets themselves so powerful, that in many if not most situations it is more efficient for the BST himself to simply not melee and swap out his axes to provide more damage for his pet. Charmer's Merlin and some TP Bonus augments provide a greater benefit than the master's entire output in 119 gear.

This doesn't seem strange to you?

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Originally Posted by scaevola

I would shit all over anybody who half-assed their DD set as much as I did this one.

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No, no you wouldn't. And even if you could, why should the game be balanced around people who purposely suck at their jobs?

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Meanwhile, the BSTs who DO put effort into their sets are upset they can't solo VD merit battlefields after the Spur fix and nobody seems bothered by this logic.

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And I don't recall anyone being upset about not being able to solo VD anything. Source? By the way, BST is supposed to be able to solo things. That's been the basis of the job since it's inception.

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Originally Posted by bazookatooth

No, no you wouldn't. And even if you could, why should the game be balanced around people who purposely suck at their jobs?

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It should not. I should not be this powerful with such little effort.

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And I don't recall anyone being upset about not being able to solo VD anything. Source?

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I don't feel like link-hunting right now but Sath soloed every AA on VD pre-nerf.

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By the way, BST is supposed to be able to solo things. That's been the basis of the job since it's inception.

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So you should be able to solo things based on the core design of the job (no argument here) AND have damage competitive with top-tier DDs without giving anything up?

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Originally Posted by Draylo-

BST shouldn't ever outparse a BLU, ever. That is the issue atm.

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Seriously?! Did you really just write that?! lol
You tickle me, sir.

Malthaaaaaaaaa, you hacked the servers to power up BST didnt you?

Once again, we see what the true problem is.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

It should not. I should not be this powerful with such little effort.

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You've already demonstrated that you can't do that with little effort and that you don't even know what it takes to get there. *Mumbles* MAB sets from NQ stones...

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Originally Posted by scaevola

I don't feel like link-hunting right now but Sath soloed every AA on VD pre-nerf.

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Are you referring to that thread on BG where people are discussing how they solo those fights on everything from scholar to pup to red mage as well? Are you mad because one guy managed to beat them on a slightly higher setting bst? Because that doesn't sound like it affects the game. That sounds like it affects your ego. Do you want them to nerf sch and rdm and pup and nin and dnc too? Which job is allowed to be good? Just tell us so we all know what to play.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

So you should be able to solo things based on the core design of the job (no argument here) AND have damage competitive with top-tier DDs without giving anything up?

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You are still basing your assumptions on how the job performs on fodder in escha. BST has always been the best job in the game at soloing easy stuff. Go try it against difficult and actual relevant content that can't be soloed by any job in the game. You'll quickly find that BST isn't the best DD, it's just relatively easier to keep alive (barring anything that uses doom, break, sleep, etc. that can't be removed or at least not reliably from a pet). And if just staying alive is the problem, you can thank SE for making it so that everything has insta-death AOE damage, rendering the tank meaningless and only one viable healer, that no one wants to play for group content.

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Originally Posted by bazookatooth

You've already demonstrated that you can't do that with little effort and that you don't even know what it takes to get there. *Mumbles* MAB sets from NQ stones...

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NQ stones have the same potential results as +2 stones. +2 stones have a better chance at getting higher augments, but they probably do not have a 40 times better chance.

People spend 100 million gil on augments because they have more money than sense, as far as I can tell.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

NQ stones have the same potential results as +2 stones. +2 stones have a better chance at getting higher augments, but they probably do not have a 40 times better chance.

People spend 100 million gil on augments because they have more money than sense, as far as I can tell.

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Okay, first of all, you have no idea whether they are 40 times as likely to get x augment and even if you did, that's not even close to the most important augment. And second, what part of "you're not going to even come close to out damaging anyone with that set" did you not understand?

You would think if beastmaster was so overpowered that there would be tons more people on this thread complaining. I also think that a boost to other dd's health would even the playing field a bit.

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Originally Posted by Draylo-

Okay, do I really have to spell everything out? A geared to the max BST vs geared to the max other jobs. It doesn't have to suck, it needs to just be toned down. Look at THF and what happened to them, seems SE already got the message and they are planning adjustments to BST.

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Except a geared to the max bst wont outdo a geared to the max dd unless you are talking about low/no buff situations.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

NQ stones have the same potential results as +2 stones. +2 stones have a better chance at getting higher augments, but they probably do not have a 40 times better chance.

People spend 100 million gil on augments because they have more money than sense, as far as I can tell.

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Actually they don't have exactly the same potential from what I've seen. I've yet to see any wrong augments with a +2 stone while with nqs it's fairly common. So right off the back a decent portion of nqs wont even give you an augment in the category you are going for let alone the particular one you want let alone a high amount. Also HQs have higher min caps so you have will at least get a decent amount.

Anyways the reason why there is such a huge price difference is because the odds of getting a good augment are that different. After throwing tons of various stones at things Nqs are definitely not worth the effort/gil except maybe dusk just because of the low availability. There are times when I seriously consider whether the ones I get from skirmish are worth the time it takes to trade them vs tossing. Now +1s are fairly decent noticeably worse than +2s but nowhere near as extreme so often worth it if the price difference becomes too great

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Originally Posted by Railer

You would think if beastmaster was so overpowered that there would be tons more people on this thread complaining. I also think that a boost to other dd's health would even the playing field a bit.

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Population is low, in case you didn't notice. Also a lot of soloers (which is most of the pop atm) gravitate towards BST, they don't want it nerfed. Look at how all the people posting in this thread are BSTs as an example lol.

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Except a geared to the max bst wont outdo a geared to the max dd unless you are talking about low/no buff situations.

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Not true.

Yes true. I always out dd any and all well geared bst on my nin.

Question: Is the debate really about BSTs out-damaging similarly geared melee DDs? Or is the issue that BST can provide multiple types of damage (even skillchaining) much more safely and requiring less continuous support and healing?

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Originally Posted by Malthar

Yes true. I always out dd any and all well geared bst on my nin.

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Stop lying, SE already knows the situation man.

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Originally Posted by dasva

Actually they don't have exactly the same potential from what I've seen. I've yet to see any wrong augments with a +2 stone while with nqs it's fairly common.

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dasva, I like you but this is nutty. "Wrong" augment? What? Does the system magically know what augment you want out of the pool and weight that augment for you?

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Anyways the reason why there is such a huge price difference is because the odds of getting a good augment are that different. After throwing tons of various stones at things Nqs are definitely not worth the effort/gil except maybe dusk just because of the low availability. There are times when I seriously consider whether the ones I get from skirmish are worth the time it takes to trade them vs tossing. Now +1s are fairly decent noticeably worse than +2s but nowhere near as extreme so often worth it if the price difference becomes too great

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Tell you what; you buy one duskorb +2 for 400k and I'll buy 40 NQs at 10k each, and we'll see who has the more desirable augment at the end.

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Okay, first of all, you have no idea whether they are 40 times as likely to get x augment and even if you did, that's not even close to the most important augment. And second, what part of "you're not going to even come close to out damaging anyone with that set" did you not understand?

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Just messing around in chump E AAs for testing (obviously I got trashed), patrick's hitting Tail Blow for about 3k with no melee pet stat gear on except Kerecahtl.

My SAM fudos in full 119 with Tsurumaru and what was maybe 10 or 12 STR away from the best WS set at the time I stopped playing it (though I shelved him before alluvion armor came out) for about 4k on such targets without attack buffs.

But I guess that's okay because Patrick has to wait 10 seconds to WS, whereas my SAM, with luck, only has to wait 7 or 8.

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Originally Posted by Draylo-

Stop lying, SE already knows the situation man.

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Bring it! I challenge you!

Find the best geared bst you know and I will beat it with my nin.

Yeah, we're all BST. That's why a DNC with BST at level 15 is in here arguing that BST doesn't need to be nerfed, you just suck, and won't get better if your first instinct on someone doing better than you is to tear them down instead of build yourself up.