dagger ws too OP?

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Originally Posted by Afania

You get it all wrong, if a THF can do same dmg as WAR, anyone with THF and WAR equally geared would have to play THF, unless the target resists piercing or unless that person has personal preference toward 1 specific job. Nothing has changed.

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You are the one getting it all wrong lol. There is no reason to force anyone to come THF. You don't need a THF at all to get meaningful TH levels. If your group leader doesnt understand how useless high TH levels are, you don't need more than one THF to get THF main level TH.

This is also glancing over all the events where TH is not relevant...and the only other thing of value a THF can possibly bring is damage.

I don't understand. Are you saying you only ever bring one DD to events? Or that One hand jobs getting a DPS boost that they desperately needed somehow invalidates 2 Hander DD?

directly multiplying your result, even at a minimal level, is far from useless

as much as idiots love to quote 'sandung < atoyac, you lose a greater fraction of your damage than the increase to your drops' and the ilk, there are much less easily measurable benefits available(because you most likely arent spamming that mission bc back to back with capped merits, you're doing one run with the people you shouted for, a miniscule chance at an extra drop can provide more benefit than finishing 3 seconds sooner)

but when there's no sacrifice, afania is right, there's no reason to choose a comparable DD without TH..

I don't understand why most people are so adamant against DDs being able to dish out identical amounts of damage. In the worst case scenario, one or two jobs will still have very slightly more potential in a given situation than the rest and will be prioritized. How is that any different than the current situation in the end? On the bright side however, people would get to enjoy more jobs. I am afraid that the dev team isn't capable of achieving that, considering their current policy of "let's dish out some ridiculous buffs and hope people relate", but why bash people who wish for that?

Edit: They were never good at job balancing, forcing players to go with the most foolproof setups to save time and resources. They chose the easy route and basically told players to deal with it, instead of prioritizing job balance and encouraging them to try out different setups. I know it isn't an easy task, there are too many jobs etc. but who would rather see, for example, chocobo racing updates while one job shits all over the rest.

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Originally Posted by Comeatmebro

directly multiplying your result, even at a minimal level, is far from useless

as much as idiots love to quote 'sandung < atoyac, you lose a greater fraction of your damage than the increase to your drops' and the ilk, there are much less easily measurable benefits available(because you most likely arent spamming that mission bc back to back with capped merits, you're doing one run with the people you shouted for, a miniscule chance at an extra drop can provide more benefit than finishing 3 seconds sooner)

but when there's no sacrifice, afania is right, there's no reason to choose a comparable DD without TH..

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People say Atoyac > Sandung A: Becuase it is true lol, and B because you can cap gear TH witohut using a dagger at all. There is literally no good reason to use a Sandung once you have TH gear.

And the scenario you and Afnia are describing does not exist. The delusion now that THF & DNC > all DD's is wrong. The delusion that THF's are crapping out 30K Rudra's non stop is wrong. The delusion that people will replace all DD's in a party with a THF to "cap TH" is ludicrous.

The plain fact is daggers got a DPS buff becuase they needed one. The one thing I will agree with is that there is less of a reason to bring another DD over a THF ...or vice versa. The fact that there is no reason NOT to bring a THF in a dps slot is the entire point of all this. You seem to think that is a bad thing. You are mistaken.

You have the option to invite whichever DD responds to your shout now. You have more viable DD options today than you did before the update. If you are a group leader this is good news. And if you are getting responses for DD shouts saying "o/ WAR" and your response to that is "Nah bro I'm stacking THF"...you're an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Vinedrai

I don't understand why most people are so adamant against DDs being able to dish out identical amounts of damage. In the worst case scenario, one or two jobs will still have very slightly more potential in a given situation than the rest and will be prioritized. How is that any different than the current situation in the end? On the bright side however, people would get to enjoy more jobs. I am afraid that the dev team isn't capable of achieving that, considering their current policy of "let's dish out some ridiculous buffs and hope people relate", but why bash people who wish for that?

Edit: They were never good at job balancing, forcing players to go with the most foolproof setups to save time and resources. They chose the easy route and basically told players to deal with it, instead of prioritizing job balance and encouraging them to try out different setups. I know it isn't an easy task, there are too many jobs etc. but who would rather see, for example, chocobo racing updates while one job shits all over the rest.

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League of legends has like 150+ characters and that game is better balanced than this.

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Originally Posted by Vinedrai

I don't understand why most people are so adamant against DDs being able to dish out identical amounts of damage. In the worst case scenario, one or two jobs will still have very slightly more potential in a given situation than the rest and will be prioritized. How is that any different than the current situation in the end? On the bright side however, people would get to enjoy more jobs. I am afraid that the dev team isn't capable of achieving that, considering their current policy of "let's dish out some ridiculous buffs and hope people relate", but why bash people who wish for that?

Edit: They were never good at job balancing, forcing players to go with the most foolproof setups to save time and resources. They chose the easy route and basically told players to deal with it, instead of prioritizing job balance and encouraging them to try out different setups. I know it isn't an easy task, there are too many jobs etc. but who would rather see, for example, chocobo racing updates while one job shits all over the rest.

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This basically. Back in the days I found the "inbalance" was ok imo, because you didn't have this content scaling etc, that made people only want to bring 6 people, but 6 of the best jobs, but also because of the design of the game then, every job seemed to have use in some situation. The direction of the game though I feel has changed that and I feel every job should be balance equally, which I'm hoping this last update is an indication of that direction they are going by doing so.

THF and DNC are now equal with other DD's. I actually see THF's and DNC's do events now and not just SAM SAM SAM MNK. Very good update which thfs needed since 2004.

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Originally Posted by mekia

THF and DNC are now equal with other DD's. I actually see THF's and DNC's do events now and not just SAM SAM SAM MNK. Very good update which thfs needed since 2004.

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Of course THF, BLU and DNC are happy, of course WAR and DRK(the real DDs) aren't. IMO that's just wrong. Making certain jobs OP so they get invite is not the same as balance. Making every job has a use is the real balance. By making THF DNC BLU OP isn't going to accomplish that goal.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

This basically. Back in the days I found the "inbalance" was ok imo, because you didn't have this content scaling etc, that made people only want to bring 6 people, but 6 of the best jobs, but also because of the design of the game then, every job seemed to have use in some situation. The direction of the game though I feel has changed that and I feel every job should be balance equally, which I'm hoping this last update is an indication of that direction they are going by doing so.

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This last update didn't achieve job balance, just because THF DNC BLU get invite because they deal more dmg than WAR and DRK, doesn't mean it's balanced.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

Or that One hand jobs getting a DPS boost that they desperately needed somehow invalidates 2 Hander DD?

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Yes, unless you want to play "I get invite on WAR because I don't care about my dmg" card as well.

As a WAR I'm happy. Did a Tenzen fight the other day. My friend went THF and I went WAR/NIN using Axe/Sword. I parsed right behind her. Now I'm sure some will pop on here and start lobbing insults about us personally or our gear or the content we chose to do. Anyone who wants to do so can just go ahead and f--- themselves. The point is we both came on the jobs we wanted to come on, we had fun, and we came real close to the record. Is that not how the game is supposed to work?

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Originally Posted by Afania

Of course THF, BLU and DNC are happy, of course WAR and DRK(the real DDs) aren't.

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lol Afania, get over yourself. THF DNC BLU ARE DD jobs. If you want to argue that WAR and DRK are behind the eight ball now, fine. They've been massively behind SAM for a long time now also.

There is so much wrong in most of your posts....I'm just done arguing with you. It's like trying to convince a brick wall to magically transform into a toaster...using only your words.

Enjoying blissful ignorance.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

lol Afania, get over yourself. THF DNC BLU ARE DD jobs. If you want to argue that WAR and DRK are behind the eight ball now, fine. They've been massively behind SAM for a long time now also.

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And now they're behind THF DNC BLU. I don't understand why you think THF DNC BLU parse top is right, WAR DRK doesn't parse top isn't. WAR and DRKs are DD jobs as well. But the only argument you had was "WAR DRK've been behind SAM for a long time, just let them be."

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Originally Posted by Camiie

As a WAR I'm happy. Did a Tenzen fight the other day. My friend went THF and I went WAR/NIN using Axe/Sword. I parsed right behind her. Now I'm sure some will pop on here and start lobbing insults about us personally or our gear or the content we chose to do. Anyone who wants to do so can just go ahead and f--- themselves. The point is we both came on the jobs we wanted to come on, we had fun, and we came real close to the record. Is that not how the game is supposed to work?

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How you have fun and how you play your job wasn't the point of this discussion though. You can play the DD RDM, DD BRD, DD GEO or DD WHM if you have fun and want to. I don't think anyone would care to stop you from playing DD X jobs.

I'm saying that WAR should parse higher than DNC THF BLU, not the other way around. Whether you get invite or not on WAR or how you have fun on WAR was not the point. You kept playing the personal experience card because your friend accepts a DD that does less dmg, that doesn't apply to everyone. We all want to play the job we want to play, and the fact is I haven't seen one single WAR DRK in endgame for months, most of my LS mate that used to play WAR DRK already bandwagon SAM since fudo update and now they bandwagon THF, and they still don't play WAR and DRK.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

There's part of your problem there. THF and DNC are DD jobs. If you really want to get technical about it, WAR was "designed" to be a tank. Start the game with sword and shield, got JA's like provoke and defender.

THF, on the other hand, was the best DD in the game at release, for quite the same reason it's strong now.

That whole argument of "X job wasn't designed to be a DD" doesnt have any merit. DNC CAN throw out cures with TP but it cannot realistically main heal a party at a high level. It has a side utility in that regard. Just like DRK has Side utility in Black Magic, unique WS. WAR has Tank JA's, and Enfeebling WS, mastery over many weapon types etc.

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The point is that WAR can't really tank in endgame, enfeebling doesn't land very well AFAIK.

But TH and steps works just fine in endgame. I agree that waltz and enmity control are not useful, but TH and steps still makes a difference.

If they make WAR tank viable in endgame, at least WAR would have a legit reason to do less dmg, but it doesn't.

If they want to make DNC THF top DD, fine. Just remove steps and TH, for the sake of job balance.

I have a pretty well geared DNC and have gotten to go DNC to party content only a handful of times in the last two years. The worst part is that the few times I did go DNC, the party would have been better off if I was on another job. Even now I'm only able to make a marginal argument for DNC over melee-BRD, but at least I'm finally able to make that argument.

As far as DNC goes, you're dramatically overstating the importance and viability of Steps. They're great in a subsection of content where fight times are long, the monsters have very high defense, and you can stack them with other forms of defense down. The rub is that any job can sub DNC and provide steps (like a melee Bard), so you're not really talking about "steps" as much as "steps level 6-10." Steps Level 6-10 are only viable in even longer fights and only matter when the monsters have even higher defense. Basically, it was perfectly reasonable to not want a DNC in your party for the vast majority of content back when we weren't very competitive as DDs.

As far as TH goes, I did go THF much more often than DNC over the last 2 years, but I rarely asked for THFs when leading groups.

Even as far as defense goes you have other option which while in different slots add up to enough that steps shouldn't matter. I mean geo + drg + light shotted dia is already -95% def. I doubt there is any nm in the game that you'd need more def down and even if you did /dnc can take you all the way to 100%

not that i really care about what any of u think i will say my rdm is loving this update >.>

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Originally Posted by Byrth

I have a pretty well geared DNC and have gotten to go DNC to party content only a handful of times in the last two years. The worst part is that the few times I did go DNC, the party would have been better off if I was on another job. Even now I'm only able to make a marginal argument for DNC over melee-BRD, but at least I'm finally able to make that argument.

As far as DNC goes, you're dramatically overstating the importance and viability of Steps. They're great in a subsection of content where fight times are long, the monsters have very high defense, and you can stack them with other forms of defense down. The rub is that any job can sub DNC and provide steps (like a melee Bard), so you're not really talking about "steps" as much as "steps level 6-10." Steps Level 6-10 are only viable in even longer fights and only matter when the monsters have even higher defense. Basically, it was perfectly reasonable to not want a DNC in your party for the vast majority of content back when we weren't very competitive as DDs.

As far as TH goes, I did go THF much more often than DNC over the last 2 years, but I rarely asked for THFs when leading groups.

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You're comparing DNC v.s BRD in terms of usefulness, if that's the case almost all of DD aren't as useful as BRD. Many well geared SAM in my LS has to play BRD 95% of the time, including the ones with Koga. BRD/DNC also isn't a standard pt setup for most of the pt on my server, unless your WHM can cover every required support alone. If you want to compare the usefulness of DD jobs, why don't you compare with WAR.

IMO higher tier BC and incursion NM lasts long enough to worth the use of steps.

I think it's ok for a DNC to get a dmg boost, but IMO it's a bit too strong atm. Now SE has to buff every none SAM DD for them to catch up, which seems like a nightmare because we wouldn't know which job getting buff gonna be even more OP than current SAM.

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Originally Posted by dasva

Even as far as defense goes you have other option which while in different slots add up to enough that steps shouldn't matter. I mean geo + drg + light shotted dia is already -95% def. I doubt there is any nm in the game that you'd need more def down and even if you did /dnc can take you all the way to 100%

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If you want to build your pt that way and somehow let the fight end before angon wear, of course you can argue that steps aren't useful. How often do you see DRG GEO COR all in 1 pt though.

2H being ranked lower than 1H damage is just the direction that SE has decided to take with the game. If you don't like playing SAM or WAR nobody is stopping you from playing THF or DNC.

Hey wait a minute that sounds awfully familiar now doesn't it?

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

2H being ranked lower than 1H damage is just the direction that SE has decided to take with the game. If you don't like playing SAM or WAR nobody is stopping you from playing THF or DNC.

Hey wait a minute that sounds awfully familiar now doesn't it?

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I don't play SAM, WAR, THF nor DNC. I'm just tired of our WS number gets bigger each update and every NM takes less and less time to die.

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Originally Posted by Afania

I don't play SAM, WAR, THF nor DNC. I'm just tired of our WS number gets bigger each update and every NM takes less and less time to die.

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That's how the game has worked since day 1. Hard content gets easier over time. Then they release new hard content. You should have quit 10 years ago if this was ruining the game for you.

All your other arguments basically just boil down to wanting 1 handed jobs to suck because in your head 2 handers are better.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

That's how the game has worked since day 1. Hard content gets easier over time. Then they release new hard content. You should have quit 10 years ago if this was ruining the game for you.

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Hard content gets easier in every MMO....but only as ilv goes up or better gear release. In this game hard content gets much easier without getting higher ilv.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

All your other arguments basically just boil down to wanting 1 handed jobs to suck because in your head 2 handers are better.

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If you bother to read the discussion, you'd know that isn't the case at all. 1h jobs don't suck and they don't need to be the best DD in this game.

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Originally Posted by Afania

If you bother to read the discussion, you'd know that isn't the case at all. 1h jobs don't suck and they don't need to be the best DD in this game.

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I'm going to say the same thing that people have been telling me for 10 years when I complained that THF needed more damage. Play a 1H job if you hate 2H jobs that much.

And I won't lie after 10 years of THF being the butt monkey of FFXI 2H tears are delicious.

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Originally Posted by Afania

If you want to build your pt that way and somehow let the fight end before angon wear, of course you can argue that steps aren't useful. How often do you see DRG GEO COR all in 1 pt though.

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Well if you want to build your party around a dnc and let the fight drag on long enough to get more than 5 steps on then of course you can argue steps are useful. How often do you see a dnc in any party? :p

Also the moves I talked about were debuffs they don't have to be in any pt just on the same mob. You also don't need them all that was just going fully loaded. In reality the -70% you can get just from geo and cor both highly used support jobs that you do see in the same pt fairly often should bring any nms def down enough for everyone to cap... and guess what that cor or geo can /dnc and get in there and add another 13% if necessary.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

I'm going to say the same thing that people have been telling me for 10 years when I complained that THF needed more damage. Play a 1H job if you hate 2H jobs that much.

And I won't lie after 10 years of THF being the butt monkey of FFXI 2H tears are delicious.

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No job should be able to do 40-50k in one shot, whether it's THF or any other, and whether or not they've sucked for however long.

PUP had a one trick pony ability just like that and it got nerfed to hell, so I expect the same will happen here.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No job should be able to do 40-50k in one shot, whether it's THF or any other, and whether or not they've sucked for however long.

PUP had a one trick pony ability just like that and it got nerfed to hell, so I expect the same will happen here.

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What content is a THF doing 40-50k that doesn't have some sort of special circumstance? Thfs are not running around doing 50k to everything they see. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No job should be able to do 40-50k in one shot, whether it's THF or any other, and whether or not they've sucked for however long.

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http://i.imgur.com/UnxoKWp.png

That's a Geo. Yeah, sure, retarded lengths were taken, 3000 TP, Bolster, Malaise, Acumen, and used while it was casting. More for the lawls. :P

The design of Thf, and rogue type jobs as a whole in most games, has always been burst damage. They attack fast, though typically for low damage, then then unleash Back Stabs, Ambushes, Sneak Attacks, combos, etc. You have to stop thinking of these instances in the sense of "omg 30-50k damage?!? OP!!" and look at how things have progressed. Some boss type NMs have 1+ million HP, properly executed SCs can do 20-50k+ themselves (though Sam is typically the only job capable/given credit of being capable of this), and perhaps largest of all, the difference between buffed DDs and unbuffed DDs. SE specifically said these changes were going into place to make 1 handed DDs competitive when they are poorly buffed. While I wouldn't advocate for it in game, I'd be interested in seeing spread sheet numbers of how Thf compares to other DDs when buffs are light/non-existent.

It's not so much that these instances are over powering, but rather that's the direction the game is going. All of this content is being made easy with these updates, jobs are being boosted to unprecedented degrees. Whether that's to make way for a new "easy mode" version of the game, or to give us these "fun" damage numbers only to re-balance us around them in the future is still to be seen.

WoW went through something very similar over the years. This last update, they "nerfed" everything, almost like starting over. I don't play so I don't know the details, but they felt that players doing 500k damage in a single attack was meaningless since you stopped paying attention to the numbers past the x00,000, the rest of the 0s were meaningless. Similar to that, when a character's HP was represented in the hundreds of thousands, there was a lot of numbers that didn't matter. So they reset everyone's stats (numbers) to a new meaningful number, and rebalanced around it. Maybe you logged on one day to find you had 15k HP instead of 500k HP, but you were no longer getting hit for 300k either, but maybe 6-7k. Maybe your Fireball now did 10k damage instead of 400k damage, but trash mobs still died in two of them, etc.

These numbers are a representation of power creep though, rather than singular instances of a job being broken. Maybe we'll all be pushing out total DPS like this in the not so distant future, but NMs will regularly have 5+ mil HP and such. I don't really mind, the game has been a sandbox MMO for a good long while now. We'll always have situations where job x, WS y, gear z is considered OP by the player base.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

What content is a THF doing 40-50k that doesn't have some sort of special circumstance? Thfs are not running around doing 50k to everything they see. Sorry.

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They're not pulling out 40k~50k every WS, but I've seen rudra did 99999 SC. Reset SA TA, do that twice, not a lot of NM can survive that.

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Originally Posted by Malithar

http://i.imgur.com/UnxoKWp.png

That's a Geo. Yeah, sure, retarded lengths were taken, 3000 TP, Bolster, Malaise, Acumen, and used while it was casting. More for the lawls. :P

The design of Thf, and rogue type jobs as a whole in most games, has always been burst damage. They attack fast, though typically for low damage, then then unleash Back Stabs, Ambushes, Sneak Attacks, combos, etc. You have to stop thinking of these instances in the sense of "omg 30-50k damage?!? OP!!" and look at how things have progressed. Some boss type NMs have 1+ million HP, properly executed SCs can do 20-50k+ themselves (though Sam is typically the only job capable/given credit of being capable of this), and perhaps largest of all, the difference between buffed DDs and unbuffed DDs. SE specifically said these changes were going into place to make 1 handed DDs competitive when they are poorly buffed. While I wouldn't advocate for it in game, I'd be interested in seeing spread sheet numbers of how Thf compares to other DDs when buffs are light/non-existent.

It's not so much that these instances are over powering, but rather that's the direction the game is going. All of this content is being made easy with these updates, jobs are being boosted to unprecedented degrees. Whether that's to make way for a new "easy mode" version of the game, or to give us these "fun" damage numbers only to re-balance us around them in the future is still to be seen.

WoW went through something very similar over the years. This last update, they "nerfed" everything, almost like starting over. I don't play so I don't know the details, but they felt that players doing 500k damage in a single attack was meaningless since you stopped paying attention to the numbers past the x00,000, the rest of the 0s were meaningless. Similar to that, when a character's HP was represented in the hundreds of thousands, there was a lot of numbers that didn't matter. So they reset everyone's stats (numbers) to a new meaningful number, and rebalanced around it. Maybe you logged on one day to find you had 15k HP instead of 500k HP, but you were no longer getting hit for 300k either, but maybe 6-7k. Maybe your Fireball now did 10k damage instead of 400k damage, but trash mobs still died in two of them, etc.

These numbers are a representation of power creep though, rather than singular instances of a job being broken. Maybe we'll all be pushing out total DPS like this in the not so distant future, but NMs will regularly have 5+ mil HP and such. I don't really mind, the game has been a sandbox MMO for a good long while now. We'll always have situations where job x, WS y, gear z is considered OP by the player base.

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This game isn't wow, the HP/dmg didn't have drastic change for past 10 years, except abyssea era and SoA, and most of the low lv contents are relevant for 10 years for this reason. I won't feel like FFXI is FFXI anymore if we all running in 10k HP doing 50k dmg every WS, and 1 shot everything in older content.

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Originally Posted by Afania

This game isn't wow, the HP/dmg didn't have drastic change for past 10 years, except abyssea era and SoA, and most of the low lv contents are relevant for 10 years for this reason. I won't feel like FFXI is FFXI anymore if we all running in 10k HP doing 50k dmg every WS, and 1 shot everything in older content.

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I'm not comparing it to WoW, just saying the situation they find themselves in is one that WoW just recently went through to an extreme level. That's great that it won't "feel like FFXI" to you, but that's what we're heading for. Throwing on the nostalgia-goggles won't exactly help. Hell, I'm pretty sure I've seen you say the exact same thing to people on FFXIAH or here, that the game has changed, different jobs are capable, new strategies emerged, blahblah. Times change, and for better or worse, that's the direction they're taking the game.

Rudra's can do 40-50k damage at 3000 TP with SA or TA and good gear + defense down on the monster. It may also require Vajra.

Having one or two melee make a multi-step Darkness skillchain (closed by THF) is currently a good way to do damage. The 99,999 nature of the damage is due to a "new" multiplier that SE added during the last patch. Here's a more thorough explanation: http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:S...llchain_Damage

Basically, you randomly get up to a 1.5x multiplier when you finish the skillchain. So sometimes you'll see freak high skillchains (you got the multiplier) and sometimes not. It's possible that we could force this multiplier if we investigated it more (perhaps by using threnodies and Ninjutsu), but no one has done it yet AFAIK.

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Originally Posted by Malithar

I'm not comparing it to WoW, just saying the situation they find themselves in is one that WoW just recently went through to an extreme level. That's great that it won't "feel like FFXI" to you, but that's what we're heading for. Throwing on the nostalgia-goggles won't exactly help. Hell, I'm pretty sure I've seen you say the exact same thing to people on FFXIAH or here, that the game has changed, different jobs are capable, new strategies emerged, blahblah. Times change, and for better or worse, that's the direction they're taking the game.

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I'm fine with SE taking the game to a different direction, as long as it has a direction. Atm it feels like SE just randomly buff underdog jobs to OP lv to please ppl with those jobs. What is the role of DNC? Shouldn't it be a support DD that does more dmg with steps+ dmg from itself? If that's their direction, make the buff or other support aspect of the job more useful, not buff the dmg and make it stronger than DRK WAR.

If SE wants to make X job solo job, then make that job very good at solo, and give them some content that shines. If SE wants to make Y job support DD hybrid, then don't turn that job into a DD job.

Now it's like: X job is good at solo so it doesn't get invite in group content, Y job is a support DD hybrid so it doesn't get invite when there's support in pt, let's make every job in this game top DD job then!"

Sounds like no direction. A few months ago they didn't say a thing about their plan to make THF DNC BLU top DD in this game, I guess the direction has changed. It happens a lot recently, the design direction of job point system changed, and the design direction of 1h job changed. It just....change a lot. I suppose I should just QQ for my jobs in this game and hope for a random OP buff as well.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No job should be able to do 40-50k in one shot, whether it's THF or any other, and whether or not they've sucked for however long.

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Here's lolbst with a magical ws that has mediocre stats when they don't even have access to hardly any mab

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...1192f9aae4.png


Also already said but need context on setup and content. And everyone can do 50k plus on the right content. Heck I was doing 60k+ before we even got to 99

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Originally Posted by Afania

Sounds like no direction. A few months ago they didn't say a thing about their plan to make THF DNC BLU top DD in this game, I guess the direction has changed. It happens a lot recently, the design direction of job point system changed, and the design direction of 1h job changed. It just....change a lot. I suppose I should just QQ for my jobs in this game and hope for a random OP buff as well.

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You mean like they did with 2H back in 2008?

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Originally Posted by Afania

Hard content gets easier in every MMO....but only as ilv goes up or better gear release. In this game hard content gets much easier without getting higher ilv.

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That is so that players are adequately geared when the next level of content comes out. It's well documented in numerous dev posts.

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Originally Posted by Afania

If you bother to read the discussion, you'd know that isn't the case at all. 1h jobs don't suck and they don't need to be the best DD in this game.

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Says you. There have been points in the game where dual wielding jobs were the preferred DD classes and there was nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with dual wield jobs being good DDs. You just prefer 2h jobs. That's your opinion. I've yet to see anything suggesting that 2 hand jobs being the best is in any way necessary or better in any way.

I'm sorry everyone, but ever since that 1h update thf has been top dd parser in every event I've been to. Sam is close to top as well. Perhaps, what needs done is just more tweaking of the ws's. I honestly don't feel sam, mnk, rng, dnc, or thf need anymore buffs. They all have good dps or something that benefits them like hateless dmg, high hp, or something or other. Jobs like war, drg, drk, nin, pup, & blu need help. I know someone may think blu is good, but dnc destroys them now and they're both versatile jobs.

It doesn't suprise me that people see more THF winning parses now. Those that endeavor play THF to its DD potential have always had to work harder than other DD's to put out good numbers. Generally, I find the ones that do are obsessing over spread sheets about their gear sets, vs various targets, optimal food, etc. They always had to go that extra mile to prove that they could provide relevant DPS to a group. They always feel like they have something to prove when occupying a DD slot.

A THF like that, just jumped straight to the front of the pack in terms of DPS because they finally gave us a WS that works synergistically with our JA's and skillchaining instead of punishing us. I would point to the fact that several other DD jobs are ahead of both THF and DNC right now in terms of DPS potential, but people just see the big rudra number that comes with holding TP and stacking JA's that have recast timers.

All that big WS damage does is servve to mitigate the fact that we cannot just unleash powerful WS at 1000TP as we wish without concern for position or recast timers like other DDs can. We have to pick our moment and our shot. There is nothing wrong with rewarding that type of strategic DPS play. Other DDs can spam much more powerful WS than our unstacked WS in that time frame.

What's really broken about all of this is the skill chain component. BTW, SAM is still winning that game by a mile. They can solo that shit all day long. Although I suspect that a mythic THF with AM 3 and buffs could replicate this to some degree now.

All this to say, THF is a DD, DNC is a DD, BLU is a DD, WAR is a DD, DRK is a DD, SAM is a DD, MNK is a DD, etc. They all have utility aspects to them. The point is that when a DD has DPS that is not competetive, their utility no longer matters. There is no amount of utility that can overcome that lack of dps. So it's optimal that they can all deal comparable damage, offer different utility aspects and cater to different play styles to appeal to a variety of players.

It appears to me that they are starting to realise this and move in that direction. I am more hopeful than I have ever been with recent updates and conversations about pet jobs, etc. This is the best time I've had in FFXI in a very long time.

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Originally Posted by Tennotsukai

I know someone may think blu is good, but dnc destroys them now and they're both versatile jobs.

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I don't know who told you this, but someone lied to you. BLU > DNC atm

Let's just make every attack, weapon skill, and spell in existence do the same amount of damage to every mob all the time. Then we will finally achieve true balance. There is no other way.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

I don\\'t know who told you this, but someone lied to you. BLU > DNC atm

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Yup, a reputable player from ffxiah blu forums. Still though, thf dominates now

Of course in situations where SA/TA become difficult to use dps drops sharply

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Originally Posted by Nebo

It doesn't suprise me that people see more THF winning parses now. Those that endeavor play THF to its DD potential have always had to work harder than other DD's to put out good numbers. Generally, I find the ones that do are obsessing over spread sheets about their gear sets, vs various targets, optimal food, etc. They always had to go that extra mile to prove that they could provide relevant DPS to a group. They always feel like they have something to prove when occupying a DD slot.

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Meanwhile SAM can just faceroll and still outparse virtually any job save for THF now.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

What's really broken about all of this is the skill chain component. BTW, SAM is still winning that game by a mile.

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If you read OP's concern, it's mostly because of SC(although he didn't actually mention SC)

We have someone posted 60k rudra SS in this thread, and I've seen rudra did 99999 darkness SC.

In theory, rudra+ SC can do over 150k dmg if you engage with 3k TP.....which is perfectly doable with regain roll.

Now if you have 2 THF doing 2 darkness SC, that's 300k dmg.

Now if you use wildcard to reset JA and give them 3000 TP again, you can do that twice.

Leaden+ 1st THF's rudra= darkness. Leaden + 2nd THF's rudra= darkness. Wildcard and repeat this process again, that's 600k dmg in 1.5 min with THF THF COR as 3 DD setup.

I haven't try this personally, but if it's doable then it sounds insanely broken. Simply because, if you use a different 3 DD setup, such as DRK DRK DRK, you aren't going to deal 600k dmg in 1.5 min unless there are tricks/gimmicks that I don't know about.

Of course you can argue that "600k dmg in 1.5 min? Big deal. SE can just add NM with 2 million HP."

The issue is that you're going to have THF THF COR still kill this 2M HP boss much faster than a different DD setup, such as DRK x3.

I don't know if this is intentional, if it's not intentional, then it's an exploit.

If it's intentional, then it's clearly a design flaw.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

There is no amount of utility that can overcome that lack of dps.

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This is simply not true. Before Leaden gets 100% AGI mod, I usually only parse around 60%~80% of another DD in delve on COR. Sometimes even lower than 60% if the DD is really, really elite. Even then I still get /tell for invite very often, simply because chaos+defense down from COR can make up the remaining 40% dmg gap. Therefore 1 COR 2 DD> 3 DD, even if the COR doesn't outparse the 3rd DD.

Utility CAN overcome the lack of DPS, period. Anyone believe otherwise is just...biased.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

All your other arguments basically just boil down to wanting 1 handed jobs to suck because in your head 2 handers are better.

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I love how this discussion turned into "you're just a THF or 1h hater" "You just want SAM to be the best" if I think rudra needs a nerf. If you bother to check this forum and BG, I've been saying that SAM and it's solo SC mechanics is clearly a design flaw and it needs a nerf. When some ppl abuse indi-malaise for 70k+ leaden salute on AH, I said it needs a nerf as well.

So, I'm not a 2h DD hater even if I said SAM solo SC mechanics needs a nerf. I'm not a COR or magical DD hater even if I said Indi-malaise mechanics needs a nerf. But if I think rudra spike dmg is a design flaw, I'm somehow a 1h DD hater?

The amount of bias in this thread is beyond my comprehension.

SE has been nerfing certain game mechanics that made clearing the content too easy for past 10 years, DRK was nerfed, SCH was nerfed, WAR was nerfed, and many other jobs....I don't understand why can't rudra get a nerf.