General complaint thread

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Originally Posted by Zekander

I mentioned RUN because we were talking about replacements for melee RDM, and RUN takes all of RDMs best melee capabilities (Enspells, Phalanx, Stoneskin, elemental resistance and barspells, even Fast Cast) and adds on an A+ rank in a DD weapon. So if you want to play RDM melee, RUN was specifically designed for you.

Yeah I just threw GEO in there for no real reason, but you could argue that GEO overshadows RDM support/nuking capabilities.

Mostly I don't play BLU out of personal preference, I don't like it's style and the monstrosity of it. I do like RDMs style of a spell wielding noble fencer, and I would like to see that style come through in the gameplay.

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Yes but your issue with Red Mage seems to be a lack in melee damage. RUN is defensive by nature where as BLU is offensive by nature and very skilled with one-handed swords. So it would be the perfect fit for the style of play you are looking for. Because Red mage is not a high damage melee job. They are better described as a jack of all trades as one poster said and I feel that is an apt description.

So instead of asking for the developers to change the job to suit your own personal style and turn them into offensive swordsmen, wouldn't it be better to just play one of the jobs that actually do already give you the style of play you are looking for?

I'll admit Blue Mage is intimidating to level but I if you want to be a fighter/mage that does high damage it really is the way to go and would pay off big in the end for you. Because you are likely never to be satisfied as a Red Mage given your orientation toward being offensive with a sword.

Also, this game has enough damage dealing classes already. It doesn't need another in my opinion and I would hate to see Red Mage go down that path.

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Originally Posted by Protey

I agree with demonjustin's request to raise RDM shield skill to C-. It's not a ridiculous request, it won't break anything. It will only allow us to have a somewhat decent rate of blocking on fodder mobs (except Woh gates... those guys are too high level). On NMs we still won't block anything.

It's kind of shameful that a whm has higher shield skill than we do.

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I agree. A C- won't hurt anything. Though I don't really see a need for it. But I got no beef with giving us a C-. As long as they remain far behind Paladin.

I really don't want RDM to be a melee DD either, I too think even 80% of a high end DD would be too much. An A- in sword would no where near accomplish that. What I do want is for the general public to accept RDM melee as an acceptable option under certain circumstances, and I feel that an A- combat skill would help in that regard. You all agree that RDM can already melee competently, but unfortunately the vast majority of FFXI players do not believe so.

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Originally Posted by Zekander

I really don't want RDM to be a melee DD either, I too think even 80% of a high end DD would be too much. An A- in sword would no where near accomplish that. What I do want is for the general public to accept RDM melee as an acceptable option under certain circumstances, and I feel that an A- combat skill would help in that regard. You all agree that RDM can already melee competently, but unfortunately the vast majority of FFXI players do not believe so.

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I think your real problem Zek is you hang out with the wrong crowd. And giving a Red Mage an A- or even an A+ isn't going to make these players you are talking about any more accepting of a Red mage who melees.

I've been in groups where a player was berating all the damage dealers that wasn't a monk and telling them to go level a monk else they are a waste of melee. Some people are just like that. And to try and appease these types of players would be an endless and unsuccessful chore SE need not embark on.

Bottom line is Red Mage can melee, no matter what these other players you are referring to think.

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Originally Posted by Dale

I think your real problem Zek is you hang out with the wrong crowd. And giving a Red Mage an A- or even an A+ isn't going to make these players you are talking about any more accepting of a Red mage who melees.

I've been in groups where a player was berating all the damage dealers that wasn't a monk and telling them to go level a monk else they are a waste of melee. Some people are just like that. And to try and appease these types of players would be an endless and unsuccessful chore SE need not embark on.

Bottom line is Red Mage can melee, no matter what these other players you are referring to think.

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Yes, currently the trend is: if you aren't SAM, you suck. ; ;

/sigh

So apparently Red Mage is perfect in every way, it's just the world that's flawed...

I'm not bad, everyone else is just a lot better than me.

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Originally Posted by Dale

I think your real problem Zek is you hang out with the wrong crowd. And giving a Red Mage an A- or even an A+ isn't going to make these players you are talking about any more accepting of a Red mage who melees.

I've been in groups where a player was berating all the damage dealers that wasn't a monk and telling them to go level a monk else they are a waste of melee. Some people are just like that. And to try and appease these types of players would be an endless and unsuccessful chore SE need not embark on.

Bottom line is Red Mage can melee, no matter what these other players you are referring to think.

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If all the melee are hasted, the rangers and corsairs have flurry, the mages have refresh and the mobs we're fighting is crippled to oblivion, you have my permission to melee.
But if even one person is left without a necesarry buff for even 5 seconds, we're not even going to have the talk.

If meleeing is anywhere but the last place on your priorities list you have no right to claim a spot in group content.

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Originally Posted by Zekander

/sigh

So apparently Red Mage is perfect in every way, it's just the world that's flawed...

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Bit of an exaggeration there Zek. I melee all the time on my Red Mage. No one has ever laughed at me for it or told me I shouldn't be. And believe it or not, we're part of this world too. So it's not the world that's flawed. Just the players you hang with. Not everyone is like that. And I would seriously consider looking into finding new players to group with.

And you are putting words in my mouth. I never said Red Mage is perfect in every way. What I did say was they can melee just fine. Which they can.

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Originally Posted by Shirai

If all the melee are hasted, the rangers and corsairs have flurry, the mages have refresh and the mobs we're fighting is crippled to oblivion, you have my permission to melee.
But if even one person is left without a necesarry buff for even 5 seconds, we're not even going to have the talk.

If meleeing is anywhere but the last place on your priorities list you have no right to claim a spot in group content.

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Just for the record Shirai, but I don't need your permission to do anything on my Red Mage.

Bottom line is if you don't like how someone plays then don't play with them. Simple as that. But players should never make the mistake of thinking they somehow have a right to dictate how other people should be playing just because they don't agree with it.

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Originally Posted by Demonjustin

I'm not bad, everyone else is just a lot better than me.

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Yes other jobs are better than you at melee damage. But they also can't heal/enhance/nuke/enfeeble as effectively either. You have to pay a price for your broad range of abilities, else the class would be too powerful.

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Originally Posted by Protey

Yes, currently the trend is: if you aren't SAM, you suck. ; ;

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Unfortunately it's just a sad fact of MMORPGs that elitist players like this exist. I find the best thing to do is just ignore them and don't bother with the trends they try to stir up. Because any player who starts trying to appease the opinions of people like that are going to have a very miserable game experience.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Unfortunately it's just a sad fact of MMORPGs that elitist players like this exist. I find the best thing to do is just ignore them and don't bother with the trends they try to stir up. Because any player who starts trying to appease the opinions of people like that are going to have a very miserable game experience.

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I agree. If you can complete the content with a slightly less powerful DD, who cares? You still completed the content.

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Originally Posted by Protey

I agree. If you can complete the content with a slightly less powerful DD, who cares? You still completed the content.

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That's how I feel about it too. Long as you win in the end, that's what really matters.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Just for the record Shirai, but I don't need your permission to do anything on my Red Mage.

Bottom line is if you don't like how someone plays then don't play with them. Simple as that. But players should never make the mistake of thinking they somehow have a right to dictate how other people should be playing just because they don't agree with it.

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I don't care how you play, as long as you perform your core duties.
Which is make the group you go with perform better.

If you neglect those because you find it more important to play with your fleuret, you are detrimental to the team.

The 0.1% extra damage you bring is not going to compensate for the lack of output by real dds that aren't buffed.

So in short, having fun is fine but remember where your job's priorities lie.

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Originally Posted by Shirai

I don't care how you play, as long as you perform your core duties.
Which is make the group you go with perform better.

If you neglect those because you find it more important to play with your fleuret, you are detrimental to the team.

The 0.1% extra damage you bring is not going to compensate for the lack of output by real dds that aren't buffed.

So in short, having fun is fine but remember where your job's priorities lie.

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But you don't decide another player's priorities for them Shirai. They do. And as I said, if you don't like how a certain person plays their class, then don't play with them. It's that simple.

And adopting this dismissive and exaggerated attitude toward Red Mage melee by saying they only bring 0.1% extra damage does no one any good. It also helps contribute to the toxic atmosphere that some on this forum - such as that Zek guy - are dealing with. Because no matter what you may think, Red Mage are capable melee and can fill a DD role. I know this because I've seen it with my own two eyes. So trust me, they can do a lot more than play with their fleuret. They can actually kill things with it too.

Truth is Red Mage has a very broad range of abilities and are capable of playing effectively in many different ways. They are not limited to just being a haste/refresh bot for you and your party members. And no one is forcing you to play with Red Mages who melee anyway. So I would ask you to stop mocking them. It's both unnecessary and unwarranted.

The thing is, if you actually play the mage part of your job; Then you are casting spells at least half the time, which means that you are not swinging your sword, which in return is a considerable loss in DPS.
Then there's the part where a proper mage casts spells in optimized gear to make sure that the spell does not get resisted on your enemy and in case of buffs, that you have an casting rate which is as fast as possible and at the same time has an as fast recast as possible because in the case of buffs in a proper setup you should be casting the spell on the next person.
Proper casting gear is not melee gear, which means that for the split second you are swapping back to a melee set you'll likely miss half the strikes.
Unless you are one of those that believes that swapping gear is cheating of course.

I'll simplify above a little for you.

Red mage -> Spellcaster

Let's look up a little description of the job Red mage:

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Their real strengths lie in their mastery of enhancing and enfeebling skills when within a party, and leveraging their many "trades" against their enemies when outside of one.

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Their real strengths lie in their mastery of enhancing and enfeebling skills when within a party

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enhancing and enfeebling skills when within a party

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http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Red_Mage

Time to use your sword?

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when outside of one.

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Originally Posted by Shirai

The thing is, if you actually play the mage part of your job; Then you are casting spells at least half the time, which means that you are not swinging your sword, which in return is a considerable loss in DPS.
Then there's the part where a proper mage casts spells in optimized gear to make sure that the spell does not get resisted on your enemy and in case of buffs, that you have an casting rate which is as fast as possible and at the same time has an as fast recast as possible because in the case of buffs in a proper setup you should be casting the spell on the next person.
Proper casting gear is not melee gear, which means that for the split second you are swapping back to a melee set you'll likely miss half the strikes.
Unless you are one of those that believes that swapping gear is cheating of course.

I'll simplify above a little for you.

Red mage -> Spellcaster

Let's look up a little description of the job Red mage:





http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Red_Mage

Time to use your sword?

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I'm not going to debate with you on the correct way to play a Red Mage. It's an endless and futile discussion with many different factors involved. Not to mention it's all just basically an opinion in the end anyway. Because there is no one right way to play Red Mage. It's a complex class with many different possibilities.

Also I should point out Red Mages have an assortment of melee-based spells for a reason. So arguing it's against their design doesn't make any sense to me. And it's very possible in many many situations to melee while still easily cast spells to support your party members. So I just disagree with your entire premise. Your real problem sounds more like an issue with this game's cumbersome gear-swapping mechanic which I can sympathize with. But that's neither here nor there.

But again - though tempting as it may be - I'm not going to get lured into a discussion on when it's acceptable to melee or when it isn't. That's an individual decision for each Red mage to make on his/her own.

What I am comfortable saying is that the Red Mage is perfectly capable of melee on this game and can be effective at it. And that's all I've said. Now when to employ that ability is ultimately up to the Red Mage. Sometimes I consider it ideal. Sometimes I don't. But it's not up to you or me for that matter when other Red Mages do it. It's their decision.

So to sum it up: I believe you to have a very limited view of the Red Mage and it's one I don't share. You are welcome to your opinion. Just don't mock or make fun of those of us who don't share it is all. Because you have your way of playing. And others have their way of playing. Neither is right or wrong if they both succeed at what they are trying to accomplish. And I can tell you without a doubt that there are plenty of successful Red Mages out there who melee in groups.

That description is from a player generated site and thus reflects only the public opinion of the job.

Here's what SE has to say about RDM:

"These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword."

also

"Capable of using both white and black magic, and adept at swordsmanship.
However, mastering powerful spells takes far longer than white or black mages."

and just in case you need it:

Adept

adjective
1. very skilled; proficient; expert:
"an adept juggler."

noun, adept
2. a skilled or proficient person; expert.

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Originally Posted by Zekander

That description is from a player generated site and thus reflects only the public opinion of the job.

Here's what SE has to say about RDM:

"These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword."

also

"Capable of using both white and black magic, and adept at swordsmanship.
However, mastering powerful spells takes far longer than white or black mages."

and just in case you need it:

Adept

adjective
1. very skilled; proficient; expert:
"an adept juggler."

noun, adept
2. a skilled or proficient person; expert.

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There is nothing in that Wiki description she linked that says Red mage should only use their sword when outside of a party anyway. So the site she is quoting as evidence doesn't really say that. She just partially quotes when outside of one and sticks it in some box that says when to use a sword to give the impression that it says that. But it doesn't.

So I wouldn't say the site reflects her views. And that Wiki description didn't really say anything I disagree with because the strength of a Red Mage is in their mastery over enhancing and enfeebling magic. What she neglects to mention though is that much of the Red Mage's enhancing magic is used to strengthen melee. And it's precisely their mastery of enhancing magic in the first place that makes them effective with a sword.

So for her to suggest that a description stating the real strength of a Red Mage is their mastery over enhancing magic while in a group somehow means they aren't suppose to melee is a contradiction in and of itself. That's like saying the real strength of a Black Mage is in black magic but they aren't suppose to nuke while in a party.

I guess I can see now why RDM gets so few updates. The only people I've seen so far on the forums are white knights who think RDM is perfect and people who play other jobs complaining that it's overpowered. I'm sure that the majority of people who play RDM would like to see some changes, but it seems they don't frequent these forums.

I am of the opinion that all the jobs need to be rebalanced, both up and down, and the only way we will ever see any changes is to express our dissatisfaction with the way things are now.

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Originally Posted by Zekander

I guess I can see now why RDM gets so few updates. The only people I've seen so far on the forums are white knights who think RDM is perfect and people who play other jobs complaining that it's overpowered. I'm sure that the majority of people who play RDM would like to see some changes, but it seems they don't frequent these forums.

I am of the opinion that all the jobs need to be rebalanced, both up and down, and the only way we will ever see any changes is to express our dissatisfaction with the way things are now.

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No job is perfect Zekander - and I recognize that. But I'm not going to sell the job short in areas where I believe it is already effective.

For example: you continually give the impression this job can't melee effectively when I think it can. I'm not trying to be a white knight about it. You are just criticizing the job unfairly in my opinion.

If you think this job is weak now you should have played it back in the early days when it really was horrible. No composure or enhancing duration gear - so by the time you cast all your enhancements it was basically time to cast them again. It was pathetic and all you really could do was cast haste and refresh on the group and sleep the occasional add and enfeeble. But the developers addressed this problem and fixed it - giving us the tools we needed to be able to melee. So I would be remiss if I didn't give them credit when they actually fixed the problem.

From my experience with RDM so far I would say that a buffed RDM (temper, haste 2, enspell) is about equal to an unbuffed MNK. I don't have the tools to test this theory numerically so this is just from my experience using both jobs for various solo activities (dynamis, salvage, meriting, etc). Now from a solo perspective this is very well balanced. However in parties the gap widens considerably, imo to the point where RDM in melee is no longer worthwhile, given the fact that the Monk gains further outside buffs while the Red Mage is pretty much still limited to only what he can cast on himself. The reason you are seeing only a small gap on Wopket is because Wopket is vulnerable to slashing damage, hence why SAMs completely destroy him, so this really can't be used as a valid example of RDM melee prowess.

To be fair I'm not extremely displeased with RDMs melee capability. I'm more upset with the mindset of the majority of players who refuse to allow RDMs to even try to melee. So far I've only made 2 or 3 suggestions to improve RDMs melee capability, and they are all very minor changes: A- sword skill, Improved En-spells, and Bravery. And all I've received so far is aggressive opposition from virtually everyone.

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Originally Posted by Zekander

To be fair I'm not extremely displeased with RDMs melee capability. I'm more upset with the mindset of the majority of players who refuse to allow RDMs to even try to melee. So far I've only made 2 or 3 suggestions to improve RDMs melee capability, and they are all very minor changes: A- sword skill, Improved En-spells, and Bravery. And all I've received so far is aggressive opposition from virtually everyone.

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You are singing to the choir about that. I don't much like the mindset of many players on this game either. And that is 99% of the problem right there.

And I don't really aggressively oppose any of your actual ideas. It's usually just the way you present them - such as this spell being useless etc. But I'm glad to hear you aren't extremely displeased with RDM melee at least. That's a start :).

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Originally Posted by Protey

ok here we go again... you are forgetting about relic feet: 5/5 merits = 25%, add feet, that's another 25%. so you're looking at 7.5 minutes. I put about 8 with a question mark because I knew it was somewhere around there. Sometimes I wonder if you play BLU as much as you say you do. Or maybe you just don't play it properly/gimped. You say I have a pattern of over exaggerating. where? that's right, I don't. I also question the things you say because you lumped a BLU in the PLD party. And you seem to think PLD needs haste. All events that a PLD is brought to is because there are RNGs. Decoy Shot says hi. Any other fights you don't bring PLDs because it is a waste. Sure, giving the PLD haste will benefit, but it's not as big of a deal as you make it out to be. Maybe you play with a group of people in a non-standard way where you put BLUs in with PLDs, more power to you. The rest of us don't.

The reason I say those things about BLU is I've seen 2 BLUs in delve keep an NM terrorized for almost the entire duration of its life. I've seen a BLU be able to heavy gravity a ton of mobs and kite them in pinch situations or just spam that spell and kill them all at once. I've seen BLU erasega and fully heal the party as if it was a WHM. I've seen BLU with like 3000 defense (though I think he might have had a minne or two), my PLD doesn't come even close to that. I've seen mythic BLU with unlimited MP. I've seen BLU outparsing MNKs. The list goes on.

You state RDM is seen as a support job. This is your own bias. RDM is a jack-of-all trades; whether it be DD, support, tank, healer... I've done them all.

As to your comment regarding how I fared against that MNK, keep in mind that I am not anywhere near the average RDM. I have put massive amounts of time and effort into it and have pretty much the best gear in all aspects. You also need to keep in mind that the SAMs were doing over double the damage of the MNK. Now SAMs are waaaaaay OP.

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1.) Diffusion Flutter - 7:14, a big issue is that Blu cannot reapply to anyone other than themself if a slow or dispel happens, Rdms Haste2 lasts an extremely long time as well, pretty sure it's over 4:30 minutes on other people with cape augment and aby+2 gear and composure, and can reapply it, and it's like 13+ minutes on self.

2.) While I agree, no idea why you'd put a Blu in the Pld party, hasting Pld can be extremely nice, depending on what you're doing, primarily for Flash and Reprisal timers, but admittedly it's non-crucial.

3.) I've seen one Rdm keep many a NM stunned for the entire duration of it's life, even without chainspell at times, the number of relevant mobs that Blu can keep locked down is FAR more limited.

4.) Rdm can "Magic Cleave" anything Blu can, just as easily, probably moreso because of elemental nuke diversity, and could also Gravity-ga as well, though there's not many times that's really called for, for Rdm or Blu.

5.) Erasega is a fair point, but there are plenty of things Rdm has going for it that Blu doesn't as well. Phalanx (light years better than Blu's phalanx replacement in 99% of situations where you'd use it) Being able to keep up Haste2 on others, Flurry 2, Refresh 2 (fair point on Blu Mythic, thing is ridiculous, but very few people actually have one) AoE Nuke diversity as opposed to only having Subduction for a good Cleave option, wind onry annoys me more often than you might think. Terror works on VERY FEW mobs, Stun works on most, and with 12s recast (8s with march2), you get a lot of invites as a stunner.

6.) Pretty sure 3000 Defense isn't remotely maintainable, perhaps with Harden Shell up, I know on Pld/Blu I maintain 2400~ish DEF when supertanking the AA, this is with Double Minne (one march for Reprisal recast), Cocoon, Food, and capped PDT/Shadow Mantle not to mention PDT obviously generally being generally less important than PDT to cap, 3000 was probably making some tradeoffs, and I'm absolutely certain if Pld got an AoE'd Harden Shell, they'll get higher Defense than Blu anyday, due to gear availability.

7.) I've seen X job outparse Y job a million times, we're talking about generalizations, you don't usually see Blus outparse Mnks, possible, but in most situations, with similar gear and skill and randomization, the Mnk will win, but anyone can win situationally.

8.) I've done every role on multiple jobs, including both Rdm and Blu, when we call Rdm a support, we're saying that's the way the community generally views them, hardly a personal bias.

It boils down to the fact that if Blu's were so "OP" why are they generally far less desirable than Rdm? I can't stress that enough. You can certainly bring them to events, but they're rarely the most popular or the optimal choice. Rdm is used far more frequently, and that speaks volumes as to their overall ability.

That said, I'm not lamenting Blu's place in the world much, I consider them (as viewed by the community) the fourth most desired (able to join events) job that takes up a "DD slot", after Sam, Mnk, and Rng (though admittedly Rng only for some events).

Rdm takes a different slot than Blu would, and there are less people competing for the "support slot"s generally than the "DD slot", that alone makes them generally more desirable. Though in terms of overall "support role" desirability, they're generally behind Brd and Whm, but after that Rdm/Cor/Geo/Sch desirability varies wildly from event to event.

--All this said, I'm not opposed to Rdm getting buffed, especially in the melee department, it's sad that even soloing, they're generally better off spamming T1 nukes than actually meleeing, and meleeing is supposed to be one of their abilities. I'm just opposed to calling Blu "OP", when there are far worthier targets to receive that title (Sam, Brd, Mnk), and even them, I'd generally rather see other jobs buffed than them nerfed.

Edit: As to Pld, Had 2700 Defense at the start of the fight with 2hr Bard songs just now and 2 Minne I think, but, after Brd 2hr wore I think I was pretty much 2250 for the rest of the fight, also songs fluctuated some.

I really don't want to get into this debate, but I have to point out that the only aoe spell RDM gets natively is Diaga... Meaning that in order to "Magic Cleave" we are forced to either use /SCH Manifestation, once every two minutes, or /BLM in which case the highest aoe spell we have access to is Aeroga II. And if you are saying that BLU's aoe nukes are only the strength of a tier II spell, then that really ought to be addressed, but I don't believe that is the case.

I really don't want to compare RDM to BLU, BLU is supposed to be a DD job, RDM is not. All I want is for it to be acceptable and possibly even helpful for RDM to melee in most circumstances, as you yourself said, meleeing is supposed to be one of their abilities. If RDM could melee for a reason other then purely for damage that would be fantastic, if for example our En-spells also inflicted a potent debuff. But that would probably require some drastic changes which SE is unlikely to do.

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Originally Posted by Zekander

I really don't want to get into this debate, but I have to point out that the only aoe spell RDM gets natively is Diaga... Meaning that in order to "Magic Cleave" we are forced to either use /SCH Manifestation, once every two minutes, or /BLM in which case the highest aoe spell we have access to is Aeroga II. And if you are saying that BLU's aoe nukes are only the strength of a tier II spell, then that really ought to be addressed, but I don't believe that is the case.

I really don't want to compare RDM to BLU, BLU is supposed to be a DD job, RDM is not. All I want is for it to be acceptable and possibly even helpful for RDM to melee in most circumstances, as you yourself said, meleeing is supposed to be one of their abilities. If RDM could melee for a reason other then purely for damage that would be fantastic, if for example our En-spells also inflicted a potent debuff. But that would probably require some drastic changes which SE is unlikely to do.

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I don't think manifestation works with our nukes either. So our situation is pretty dire when it comes to AoE damage. That's not one of our strengths and I would say Blue Mage definitely has us beat there.

Manifestation doesn't work with nukes, I was referring to /Blm for cleaving, though /Sch gives access to Breakga/Sleep2Ga/Gravija/Phalanxga which is of situational use, but not for cleaving.

For cleaving, my Thundaga 1 does about 1k to the mobs in marjami with rather mediocre Hagondes+1 augments (52Macc, 46matk) my subductions do about 1500 with mostly the same gear, but only because of the non-multitarget reduction) higher tier nukes may do more on Rdm but they wouldn't be as MP efficient.

In total for me, this makes Blue Mage better for cleaving in situations when you have access to trust (and thus Phalanx2), but for solo cleaving Dynamis for example, I go Rdm over Blu because I can pull bigger pulls with Phalanx over my Blu, I also nuke with Stonega in Dynamis for about 850ish iirc, which is plenty enough and more MP efficient than Thundaga.

If I do get a Rdm friend to go with me and Phalanx2 my Blu, Magic Hammer is pretty ridiculous for recovering MP on trash mobs that have MP such as dyna, but alone? Barrier Tusk doesn't remotely replace Phalanx, and usually isn't worth setting, especially against trash mobs whereas phalanx is a huge benefit on them.

In Skirmish Rdm/Blm is generally preferable to Blu generally because they can also Haste2/Dia3 and still nuke when the situation calls for it (Umbrils, Slimes)

So basically the only reason RDM can magic cleave is because it gets a lot of MAB gear and because SE superbuffed the low tier nukes. Just a year ago RDM would not be able to do that much aoe damage by any means. Yeah, yeah, get with the times, but my point is that aoe is not supposed to be a strength of the RDM job (if it was we would have gotten aoe enfeebles a long long time ago). Whereas Subduction is only one of many BLU aoe spells, and I doubt it's the most damaging.

And that's all ignoring the fact that RDM and BLU really shouldn't be compared to one another. It's the obvious parallels I know, but the two jobs are supposed to fill different roles.

Responding to your post:

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Originally Posted by Zekander

So basically the only reason RDM can magic cleave is because it gets a lot of MAB gear and because SE superbuffed the low tier nukes. Just a year ago RDM would not be able to do that much aoe damage by any means. Yeah, yeah, get with the times, but my point is that aoe is not supposed to be a strength of the RDM job (if it was we would have gotten aoe enfeebles a long long time ago). Whereas Subduction is only one of many of BLU's aoe spells, and I doubt it's the most damaging.

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Yes, same is true of Blm, Sch/Blm, Geo/Blm and TBH, with the right support you can probably cleave on silly stuff like Brd and Whm etc, but that wouldn't be particularly efficient. But frankly the main reason Rdm is one of the better jobs for cleaving is because of Phalanx. Blu's mostly not that great at cleaving without it either, wouldn't have been possible for them without Rdm support or Trust, which is a game changer.

Blu's AoE spells traditionally have always been terrible, notable exceptions being Charged Whisker and Subduction, anything else is not nearly as efficient taking MP/Damage/Casting time into account (Embalming Earth/Tempestous Upheaval and Rending Deluge h ave all come about in this last year, and they're not bad, but not superior to Subduction).

And as far as what a job was "meant" to do, Ninja wasn't meant to be a tank, until it was, jobs roles are determined both by the designers and the players. I think both Blu and Rdm would be considered decent cleavers in present day. Rdm better when you don't have an outside source of Phalanx such as trust, Blu better when you do (except on mobs that don't take damage from wind).

As to them being incomparable, there's a grain of truth to that mainly because they're not competing for the same slot in party composition, usually. But I see no problem with comparing their overall merits and overlapping roles when they do occur.

i cant complete agree with blus aoes(post abysea mostly tho) being bad, thermal pulse, water bomb(actually this one is seriously mean with magic dmg lowish cost as well to bad its recast is so bad), acrid stream( cone so might not count >.>) heck even lowely blood weapon was good 25 mana full hp mid cleave. Dont hate on Embalming, pretty potent slow on it, nice if you need to cast dream flower mid cleave. Now on the blu vrs rdm on cleaveing blu does higher dmg in an amount of time, but rdm can get an outrageous amount more mobs that blu could ever dream of, and do it safely, not to mention on rdm its easier to taller your nuke dmg to say 550-600 range for points.

@zekander yea whisker is still waaay stronger than subduction i mean were talking about 9k whiskers vrs 2-3k subduction, but the time it takes for 1 whisker you could have done 2-4 subduction (depending on fast cast) and for a fraction of the mana cost

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Originally Posted by Metaking

i cant complete agree with blus aoes(post abysea mostly tho) being bad, thermal pulse, water bomb(actually this one is seriously mean with magic dmg lowish cost as well to bad its recast is so bad), acrid stream( cone so might not count >.>) heck even lowely blood weapon was good 25 mana full hp mid cleave. Dont hate on Embalming, pretty potent slow on it, nice if you need to cast dream flower mid cleave. Now on the blu vrs rdm on cleaveing blu does higher dmg in an amount of time, but rdm can get an outrageous amount more mobs that blu could ever dream of, and do it safely, not to mention on rdm its easier to taller your nuke dmg to say 550-600 range for points.

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My perspective toward Blue Mage is probably tainted due to my Abyssea days when I used to enviously watch them literally pull the entire area and zap them all dead with a single spell. And these weren't wimpy monsters either. I'm talking very/incredibly tough ones.

I should probably take into account that without atma and given the fact they buffed low-tier nukes (which I was unaware of) maybe the difference between a Blue Mage and a Red Mage isn't as great as it once was in terms of AoE damage. But it's really hard for me to imagine the Blue Mages I am used to seeing from the old days reduced the power of a Red Mage/Black Mage sporting a low tier aga spell. But maybe that's how it is now. I don't play BLU nor do I often play with BLU. So if you say that's the way it is, I'll believe it.

well in abysea all the mobs were in a nice small area which made gathering them up while takeing a small amount of dmg easy and quick before they could kill you, but its not like rdm which can pull all of kufatl tunnel and, i actually did this once was kinda cool. 2-3 nukes finished up the do 500 dmg objective easily with the numbers of mobs were talking about.

I've seen Blu, Rdm, Pld, and to a lesser extent Mnk and Nin all cleave pretty well in Marjami which is impressive enough really. Have never seen a War do it but I suspect they'd be plenty good with retaliation as well much like the old aby days.

I have no idea how NIN cleaves, but I know from personal experience that Spinning Attack (MNK) and Circle Blade (PLD, RDM, BLU) do approximately the same amount of damage, ~1.2k + multi attacks (adding about 1k per hit). WAR has Fell Cleave, I don't know what kind of numbers it puts out but I would imagine it is significant since that WS alone spawned it's own form of aby exp party.

For reference, I use Tinhaspa on MNK and DW Claidheamh Soluis and Buramenk'ah on RDM.

Nin cleaves with Aeolian Edge, saw a JP out there the other night doing alright at it while I was cleaving on Pld (I rotate Blu/Pld/Rdm for job points and depending on my mood/what Job I'm on), with the right setup can hit 1300 damage or so, not OMGreat but not terrible.

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Originally Posted by Metaking

well in abysea all the mobs were in a nice small area which made gathering them up while takeing a small amount of dmg easy and quick before they could kill you, but its not like rdm which can pull all of kufatl tunnel and, i actually did this once was kinda cool. 2-3 nukes finished up the do 500 dmg objective easily with the numbers of mobs were talking about.

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Oh you are talking in terms of doing the RoE quests. I was talking more in terms of raw damage from AoE attacks.

I imagine phalanx does give Red Mage a good advantage when it comes to fighting hoards of weaker monsters since you can nullify most of their damage.

1.) I do that for sparks, stripping off enough MAB/Mdmg gear to hit around 500 each nuke on whatever I'm on and then spamming if for objectives, is efficient.

2.) AoE damage output is a factor for how efficient your job is at cleaving, but not the only one. Blu/Blm/Rdm are all quite good at it, and reasonably close, is my point, so it's silly arguing that one has a big advantage over another, some are better in some locations, but all are close enough in Exp(orwhatever)/Hour overall that it's kinda a wash.