@SquareEnix: Kickstarter campaign to get a graphic upgrade?

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Originally Posted by predatory

But you missed the important part of what Alhanelem said so I'll quot it and bold it. By quote I mean put it in quotation marks.

Alhanelem: "I stand by the last 2 statements I added in my edit. They shouldn't ever consider a kickstarter nor should we buy into one. This is something they should just <insert vague frustration word here> do. And if they're not going to do it, we should speak with our money by NOT giving it to them, because then they might realize they have more to lose by not doing it."

If people actually speak with their wallets (IE not pay for a product they feel is inferior), companies lose money, so the statement: "But they've nothing to lose, no real reason to do it other than we asked. I keep saying that", is really wide of the mark, when they actually have everything to lose. Companies who do not please their customers go out of business

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The question is how many people value a graphical update so much they'd rather quit the game than play it with it's current graphics? I'm betting it's not enough to make it worth the money, if it were then we'd see more threads popping up about how people are quitting because the graphic quality is so bad, thing is this just isn't happening and when quit threads do pop up the graphics are almost never mentioned. This is an aged/aging game, anyone who's been here more than a single month has come to terms with the fact that expecting this game's graphics to be overhauled is only expecting disappointment. All of that said I should address the first thing you really wanted to point out...

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we should speak with our money by NOT giving it to them, because then they might realize they have more to lose by not doing it

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I did address this remark when I said that they have nothing to lose. What I meant by it is that if they do nothing they're not going to really lose enough people that doing it would actually make them more money. Saying something along the lines of they've more to lose by not doing it implies that enough people care enough about the graphics of the game to truly impact the game in such a way.

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If everyone who plays told SE if you don't fix our graphics and our UI we will not pay next month, then actually carried through on the threat, SE would be back pedaling as fast as they could to give us batter graphics and a more modern UI, because believe it not, this game still brings in huge profits. There may only be 800-1k player on at any given time, but not everyone plays at the same time, and everyone has multiple mules, there may be as many as 4k paid accounts per server, we have no real way of knowing, but lets do a little guess work.

2500 active accounts per server, *that seems like a fair number) now lets guess each account has 3 mules, (Iknow people with more, and some with less) that's $15.99 per account, and 16 servers, so 2,500x$15.99x16= $639,600 SE would be hit for one month. I can't that of any company on the planet that would happily say "oh well it's just a little over a half mil we can deal with it." There would probably be an emergency meeting of the board of directors and heads would roll

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I don't like ignoring points, but this is a terrible one. You're basically saying that 2500 people on each and every server would quit based on nothing more than making the game look prettier? That's just... I've no words that truly convey my reply to such a thought. I mean if you said 500 people quitting on each and every server I'd have thought it an insane idea but 2500?

I don't mean to come off as an ass but really I don't think you could find 2500 people between all servers that'd be willing to quit over the graphics in hopes that SE would break down and throw money at the graphics for it. Please, just give that argument up.

i'm not assuming any such thing. I was making a point to highlight anhalems point, if enough people say give us our upgrade or no money for you, we will get the upgrade

you missed the point too, i was simply highlighting anahelms speak with your wallet point, like I said earlier in this thread, my graphics are just fine, I have them oversamply 2x and the game looks great to me, I've stated I would not pay extra for an upgrade so I really don't give a shit if they do it or not

So much effort being put in by the counterargument crowd.

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Originally Posted by predatory

i'm not assuming any such thing. I was making a point to highlight anhalems point, if enough people say give us our upgrade or no money for you, we will get the upgrade

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Sorry, but it's far more likely SE would just kill the game in that situation.

If your game already has low numbers and most people actually threaten you with quitting over something you already have no interest in doing, then there is zero incentive for them to budge to what the angry mob with pitchforks demands. From their perspective getting rid of the problem altogether would be far more convenient, simply because they will, from that moment on, have to worry about what new demand will come next.

That is why a Kickstarter is a better idea by far.

We (the people in favor of Kickstarter) want something from SE, and to obtain it we want to make it attractive for SE to spend the resources and time to do it.

How do we do that?

By making a compromise where we pay for cost of the upgrades we want made, and SE compromises to deliver them. With the added benefit for them that the improvements may bring back more old players and maybe bring some new into the game.

And the result would depend on whether or not enough players are willing to pay. If the kickstarter fails then nothing is lost except for some time, and if it succeeds players will gain a nice client upgrade without threatening the survival of XI in the process.

If you don't want to give money for it just ignore it. Unless you are somehow against other people spending their money to make the game better for everyone and benefit SE at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Raydeus

Sorry, but it's far more likely SE would just kill the game in that situation.

If your game already has low numbers and most people actually threaten you with quitting over something you already have no interest in doing, then there is zero incentive for them to budge to what the angry mob with pitchforks demands. From their perspective getting rid of the problem altogether would be far more convenient, simply because they will, from that moment on, have to worry about what new demand will come next.

That is why a Kickstarter is a better idea by far.

We (the people in favor of Kickstarter) want something from SE, and to obtain it we want to make it attractive for SE to spend the resources and time to do it.

How do we do that?

By making a compromise where we pay for cost of the upgrades we want made, and SE compromises to deliver them. With the added benefit for them that the improvements may bring back more old players and maybe bring some new into the game.

And the result would depend on whether or not enough players are willing to pay. If the kickstarter fails then nothing is lost except for some time, and if it succeeds players will gain a nice client upgrade without threatening the survival of XI in the process.

If you don't want to give money for it just ignore it. Unless you are somehow against other people spending their money to make the game better for everyone and benefit SE at the same time.

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But me and a lot of people like me are simply not willing to shell out extra money for this game, if you feel the urge to do so, well it's your money spend it how you wish, I would not dream of telling you what to spend your hard earned money on, I'm simply saying I am totally unwilling to spend any extra money than I do now, for what in my mind has become an inferior game compared to what it has been in the past, and like I have stated a couple of times already, my graphics are fine. Also I probably would have ignored this thread by now, except people keep quoting me

So hmm, we need to hear from you SE =/

A kickstarter is the worst idea imaginable. I don't know how anyone here could even consider supporting it. They make tons of money off this game. SE is in far better shape than it was a few years ago. To have a company with millions of dollars in free capital do a kickstarter to raise money they don't need to make what we're asking for happen is beyond redonkulous and actually a little insulting. The whole point of kickstarter is to kick START a fledgling group or an small or unknown company from obscurity to popularity and fund projects which otherwise would not be able to happen due to lack of capital. An indie group making a new video game wants to hire hands to help make their first game, they need money to pay people and so a kickstarter makes sense. A multimillion dollar corporation like SE fits into none of those categories. They dont need to nor should they be using kickstarter for an update to an already released game that SHOULD happen anyway.

It just bugs me, as if people think SE needs the money in order to be able to do what's being asked of them. They don't. Many of you may know me as or call me a white knight. But this is one case where I can't stand by them. The money we pay them already is supposed to go (at least partially) towards updating the game.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The money we pay them already is supposed to go (at least partially) towards updating the game.

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You mean like the monthly updates we've been getting for quite some time now? Because that, wages and server costs, plus their profit is already being covered for with our subs.

The client and texture upgrades we would like to Kickstart on the other hand are something additional they have no reason to invest on without a good incentive for doing so. The client already runs on supported platforms without much of an issue, and they are adding quality of life, content and gameplay updates on a regular basis now. If anything this is a time when we are getting more for our sub money compared to how things worked in the past. So they have no incentive to just go and do the upgrade considering the current sub numbers and the slim chance of an investment return from something like it.

Which is why we want to give them that incentive. As simple as that.

Now, I do understand why you may take offense to the concept of giving a company even more money to do something they should've done a long time ago, but that is not how things work when trying to make a deal with a business.

So, our solution to obtain something very specific that we want is to offer to pay for it if enough people are willing to contribute, which is what Kickstarters are for. Except maybe that if SE actually agreed to it we'd have a much better chance of actually getting what we are paying for.

That being said, Kickstarting it is obviously not the only solution to this. And if you don't feel like a Kickstarter is the best idea then how about you try something else.

I think a good way of doing it could be getting enough ex-players to sign some sort of pledge to return to the game should SE made the client and textures improvements. Another could be to try to contact a higher up and bring your request to them, if someone high enough supports the idea it can happen. Either way, whatever you do it has to show SE they will benefit from making those upgrades to the game in a tangible way.

Personally I like the Kickstarter idea better because it's the most direct since it would show SE that people are actually willing to put their money where their mouths are. And if enough interest was generated, even if we didn't get enough money, it could still bring some attention to our request.

But like I said, it isn't the only way of doing things. And as long as the end result translates into a client and texture upgrade rather than just empty words on a thread I'm ok with it regardless of how it happens.

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Originally Posted by predatory

i'm not assuming any such thing. I was making a point to highlight anhalems point, if enough people say give us our upgrade or no money for you, we will get the upgrade

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And if a frog had wings it wouldn't bump it's butt when it hopped. You're doing that weird thing where a player has a thing he feels strongly about and assumes everyone else feels just as strongly about. I seriously doubt you'd find even 1000 players total who give a crap enough about the graphics to pay 1 penny to upgrade them or quit.

Found this screens long time ago on FFXIAH

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/680...P8ola1CrP5.png

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/690...v2PF115F8i.png

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/683...X099Xibs8u.png

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/191...TslqI6vlg8.png

http://i.imgur.com/TxB5zEw.jpg

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So, our solution to obtain something very specific that we want is to offer to pay for it if enough people are willing to contribute, which is what Kickstarters are for. Except maybe that if SE actually agreed to it we'd have a much better chance of actually getting what we are paying for.

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Kickstarters are to fund new and unreleased projects and events that are yet to happen. Not to fund an already funded project that does not and should not need additional money.

You can be nearly 100% sure that they already have highres master versions of all the textures in the game. E.g. do you really think their original art for the mog house rugs is that pixelated? No, it's not. Artists do everything in the highest quality possible and then it's reduced to the resolution needed for the game (based on what the platform they originally released on is capable of and how well it would look- placing high resolution textures on the ps2 with its giant pixels for the 3D environement would not improve the appearance). The only work involved here is swapping texture versions. Tedious work because of just how many there are, but they've proven they don't need our help to do this on multiple occasions by upgrading various textures in the past including those used for fonts, icons and the title screen.

Kickstarter is a terrible idea. It's not appropriate for this type of project and IT'S SOMETHING THEY SHOULD BE DOING ANYWAY. It is beyond me why anyone would support such an idea. Neither I nor anyone else should have to throw extra money at SE for them to do this.

This would be like Blizzard not releasing its latest game or withholding a new WoW expansion unless they did a kickstarter and it was successfully funded. it would be a giant PR stunt and nothing more. They don't need the money, nor do they need incentive. They will make plenty of money by just doing it, and they have plenty of capital to do just that. SE has plenty of capital. If we can't encourage them to just do it, we're not even going to get them to do a kickstarter or any other kind of silly stunt for it.

I totally understand that some of you have a strong enough desire for this to want to do "whatever it takes" to make this idea happen. But, it's not going to happen until and unless SE just decides to do it. If this thread and all the "shut up and take my money" pics won't do it, nothing will. Believe me, I want it too. I just know they have the means to do it without extra help from us, and nothing outside of this forum is likely to have a greater effect. petitions, kickstarters, etc. SE is just going to do whatever they're going to do.

Personally I would just hope for an official comment on this. If they can consider it at all, even if it takes years, I'd be happy. I only wouldn't be happy to hear something like "oh, we'll do it, but you have to pay extra!" I've paid at least $1500 in subscription fees for this game over the years, as have many other people here who have been playing since the beginning or close to it. Is that not enough to get some updated textures?

Admit it Alhalenem... you secretly want this Kickstarter to exist so you can fund it, but you already spent all your spare money on Microsoft's Kickstarter for Windows 9.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

Admit it Alhalenem... you secretly want this Kickstarter to exist so you can fund it, but you already spent all your spare money on Microsoft's Kickstarter for Windows 9.

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I'd sooner fund a kickstarter for paying down the national debt.

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I've paid at least $1500 in subscription fees for this game over the years, as have many other people here who have been playing since the beginning or close to it. Is that not enough to get some updated textures?

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I agreee with this

Nobody is forcing anyone to pay anything, but if they didn't update the graphics until now I don't see them doing it for free, as it would require a lot of work. The team currently working on FFXI is pretty small right now, and they would need to get more designers and programmers from SE for sure, which has a cost.
We have payed a lot of money and invested a lot of time in this game, I've been playing for 11 years now, almost non stop. Our money went on updates, expansions, servers and what else, so we basically got what we payed for. The point now is asking for something that they didn't plan, as they would most likely continue with the regular updates till the game dies.
That's why I believe we could really help them out funding the project. I just hope they are discussing about this within the team right now, they should respond to let us know what they think.

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Nobody is forcing anyone to pay anything, but if they didn't update the graphics until now I don't see them doing it for free,

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They won't be doing it for free. They'll be doing it for the $12.95 (or more) everyone here pays them every month.

If I paid them extra money, it would be for an expansion or other large swath of new content. I'm not about to pay for something I feel they should be doing as a patch or update for the money we're already paying them.

Other games have modernized to support new graphics tech or other audiovisual improvements. Why should we have to pay for what's included in the cost of paying for almost any other MMO?

Did the players of WoW have to pay for the graphic refresh of the entire original continents of the game? No. (It happened with the release of Cataclysm, but you saw the improved/changed graphics whether you bought the expansion or not, unless I've gone crazy)

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

They won't be doing it for free. They'll be doing it for the $12.95 (or more) everyone here pays them every month.

If I paid them extra money, it would be for an expansion or other large swath of new content. I'm not about to pay for something I feel they should be doing as a patch or update for the money we're already paying them.

Other games have modernized to support new graphics tech or other audiovisual improvements. Why should we have to pay for what's included in the cost of paying for almost any other MMO?

Did the players of WoW have to pay for the graphic refresh of the entire original continents of the game? No. (It happened with the release of Cataclysm, but you saw the improved/changed graphics whether you bought the expansion or not, unless I've gone crazy)

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Are you really comparing WoW's situation with XI's? At this point you are just throwing tantrums and offering zero solutions other that more tantrums.

But hey it's a free forum, keep doing that if it makes you feel better. I would just recommend people to stop replying to your posts because I don't want this thread to be locked before we get at least some response to the proposal.

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Originally Posted by Raydeus

You are right XI was sacrificed in order to make XIV "succeed" (although that success still remains in question long term considering how disposable content is in that game), but SE isn't allergic to money either. So if XI could still make money for them and players were willing to pay for the upgrade they have no reason to say no to that extra profit.





Most of what you say is precisely why a Kickstarter would be the best option for something like this.

Although personally I wouldn't want a change in models at all, just hi-res textures and a client upgrade (like I said DX11/12 support, Open GL and maybe Mantle for a stretch goal) that was completely focused on optimizations for PC. The performance gains the game would get would far surpass the extra requirements better textures would need so it would actually allow weaker PCs to run it much better. But gameplaywise nothing would/should change.

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They wont do it cuz they don't wanna block out there Japanese player base most still play on ps2. This game was made for ps2 no PC everything forgets that.

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Originally Posted by Raydeus

Are you really comparing WoW's situation with XI's? At this point you are just throwing tantrums and offering zero solutions other that more tantrums.

But hey it's a free forum, keep doing that if it makes you feel better. I would just recommend people to stop replying to your posts because I don't want this thread to be locked before we get at least some response to the proposal.

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I'm not throwing tantrums, I don't know why you made such an immature reply.

I've made a valid comparison. WoW's subs have been declining for a while now. If WoW can get a visual upgrade, so can FFXI. You can't just go "oh, WoW. Arugment invalid." If you say this because Blizzard has more money, that's an irrelevant point, because SE is more than profitable enough to be able to reassign the high res master art over the reduced textures made for the game. It's a tedious, not a difficult, process.

I am being completely civil here, there is no reason for the thread to be locked, not that you're ever going to get a response. You're attacking someone for their opinion and the overall tone of your post is extremely rude. You are "reccomending other people not to reply to me." Also extremely rude. If you don't have anything civil to say, perhaps you should try using the block list and following your own advice- not naming and shaming others.

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Originally Posted by Ritsuka

They wont do it cuz they don't wanna block out there Japanese player base most still play on ps2. This game was made for ps2 no PC everything forgets that.

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Actually, that doesn't really have anything to do with it. The title screen, icon, and font texture resolution improvements were made on PC (and maybe xbox? I'm not sure) only. They can make non-mechanical changes like this to the game on individual platforms.

The game engine can handle it, they have already updated a handful of textures and art in the game to be higher res. It is well within their means.

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Originally Posted by Raydeus

Are you really comparing WoW's situation with XI's? At this point you are just throwing tantrums and offering zero solutions other that more tantrums.

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A solution to what? The problem of you not having exactly the graphics you want? The look of the game is irrelevant to gameplay. The point he keeps making that you guys are all too dense to realize is that SquareEnix is a BUSINESS. This stuff comes out of their research and development costs. The guy's point with World of Warcraft was so obvious but you're just like "Nuh uh. Doesn't count."

See, Blizzard, being a business, used their research and development budget, which came from selling their products and services, to do what businesses do, and improve their product. They didn't act like a charity and ask people to donate money.

People use Kickstarter to fund their independent movies. Imagine Entertainment doesn't. They use profits from their movies to fund movies.

Not to mention that the development costs for this would be so high, the number of people who would be able to contribute would be so low, that the idea itself is idiotic on a practical level too.

To say nothing of the fact that they won't even drop Playstation 2 support, much less revamp the entire game.

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Not to mention that the development costs for this would be so high, the number of people who would be able to contribute would be so low, that the idea itself is idiotic on a practical level too.

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The costs associated with this would mostly just be paying a handful of people to spend man hours reassigning textures. See, they already have high resolution art (If they don't, then that means they threw the original masters away which would be the stupidest thing any company could possibly do). So its not like they need to have an art team make new art. They already have the textures- They are reduced in quality to fit the requirements of the game. You always make something in the highest possible resolution and then you lower it down.

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See, Blizzard, being a business, used their research and development budget, which came from selling their products and services, to do what businesses do, and improve their product. They didn't act like a charity and ask people to donate money.

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That's basically what I'm getting at. I'd liken SE doing a kickstarter for a graphic upgrade to Bank of America doing a kickstarter to launch a new no-fee checking account or Ford doing a kickstarter to introduce some new cosmetic improvement to their cars. Compared to the money you and me make, these corporations print money. They don't need more from us than what they're already taking. If they care about their product, they will do something to improve it on their own using the money we already pay them.

The thing about being a business is that you're trying to make money. If you're going to spend, say, $100,000 on a graphical update your goal is to make that much or more as a result of doing so. Upgrading the graphics of this game will not retain many additional players and will not draw in many long term players either. As it's been said before the game's graphics and gameplay are unrelated, this means graphics in the end won't be enough to retain or pull in players. As a result of this the cost of upgrading graphics won't be covered by the additional money made and it's a bad business choice.

People can run around this subject a hundred times it's not going to change the fact that a graphical update simply won't be done without something like kickstarter being the cause. SE has no financial reason to do this kind of update to the game and if the best argument for why they should do it outside of something like kickstarter is because they're a business or because we've paid for the last 12 years to play this game then you're only going to end up without getting it. Pointing out they're a business is only pointing out exactly why they'll never do it and to some extent never should. Pointing out we've played so long makes it sound like that means they owe us something, guess what though, those dues have been paid over the last few years of continued updates to the game and additional content spread all throughout it. Graphics are not part of the deal, they've never been and will never be. That's just how things are.

The point of this idea is for people who want to fund it to have the ability and power to do so rather than sitting around with their thumbs up their asses hoping one day SE will grace them with that which they so desire. If you want to keep your money then fine, do it, but stop acting as though SE will just do it themselves and that we're wasting our time and money when they will never do it themselves because there's 0 profit and only loss to be had as a result of it on their part.

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Originally Posted by Ritsuka

They wont do it cuz they don't wanna block out there Japanese player base most still play on ps2. This game was made for ps2 no PC everything forgets that.

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A game's graphics have nothing at all to do with the game's ability to be multi-platform. The graphics for this game are all saved to the harddrive of the users console or PC. This fact is the exact reason why .dat mods for the PC version of the game have existed since as far back as I can remember, people modify the files on their PC that are used to display the models or icons, by doing so the game uses the file it was replaced by and thus as a result show something different. This is why SE can do something similar by adding their own new HD files for people to download for PC and the PC version of the game will load those files, showing a HD version of the character model and resulting in a better looking PC version than the PC version. The only thing it'd do for the PS2 players is make them feel left out, something I couldn't care less about since they're playing on a console from more than a decade ago and have nothing besides that fact to blame. It wouldn't prevent them from playing the game any different than they are today however.

As I mentioned before, they've already established they can change individual textures on one platform and not another (See: title screen, ability/nameplate icons and 3D font enhancements)

This kickstarter would never happen.

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Originally Posted by Arbalest

This kickstarter would never happen.

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If you told me that 5 years ago I would've agreed completely.

But nowadays there is a good chance they might actually consider it because not only have Kickstarters proven their viability both with indies and with established companies, but also because it would be something of very low risk and investment for them. Right now it's just a matter of seeing what they have to say about it.

Either way, nothing at all is lost with trying.

You guys should consider performance as well. It'd be great for new models / textures etc... but at the minimum the game really should be more efficient and friendly with new hardware. Who here has decent specs and experiences random slowdowns for no apparent reason?

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Originally Posted by Sixtythree

You guys should consider performance as well. It'd be great for new models / textures etc... but at the minimum the game really should be more efficient and friendly with new hardware. Who here has decent specs and experiences random slowdowns for no apparent reason?

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Yep, we've mentioned that in the thread before, that something like this would be good :

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Originally Posted by Raydeus

- Main goals :
1) DX11 client with proper PC optimization and features (AA, AF, V-sync, longer drawing distances, better performance on modern hardware, better audio processing, snappier UI, etc.)
2) HD textures for all items, characters, monsters and areas.

- Additional goals :
1) OpenGL/Mantle support
2) HD Rework of environmental and gameplay FX (particle effects in abilities, spells, etc., water effects, weather effects, etc.)

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Models themselves don't really need any sort of rework, just the textures.

Speaking of crowd funding, SE already has the Collective.

Maybe something could be done so a DX11 client + HD textures project for XI could be posted there. :D

That is actually very interesting, it should serve the purpose!

Come on SE, talk to us!

They've already seen the thread, so they aren't answering either because they don't want to say a flat no OR they don't have an answer to give just yet.

Either way I don't think bumping the thread will do much, if they have a reply Camate or someone else will post it here eventually, like they have done in other threads.

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Originally Posted by Emdief

Come on SE, talk to us!

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They already did, ignoring the thread is an answer in itself.

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Originally Posted by Castanica

They already did, ignoring the thread is an answer in itself.

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Not at all.

There are many threads they come back later to and resurrect to give an answer or an update about the topic at hand.

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Originally Posted by Raydeus

Not at all.

There are many threads they come back later to and resurrect to give an answer or an update about the topic at hand.

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"Square Enix shutting down 'Final Fantasy XI' for PS2 and Xbox 360 in 2016. Square Enix will shut down the console versions of its MMORPG, Final Fantasy XI. According to Polygon, the Xbox 360 and PS2 versions of the game will be discontinued in March of 2016. The PC version will continue to operate.Mar 20, 2015"

Could this be the kickstarter everyone was asking for a year and a half ago?

I'd be interested in backing this for either a true DX 11 client, or updating the Wrapper the game runs on to DX11 (Would still solve a lot of issues if they just update the wrapper) and Hi-Res textures. one of the stretch goals could be adding shiny water effects etc.

If you just want hq textures for models why not just pay modders to do it?

Square don't want to spend money on this game above and beyond what they have to, they have stated this a few times.