whats the best subjob for DD at 90?

That's what I usually did, now I don't even bother using MM at all though since I finished Almace for obvious reasons. I can amend a previous post and say SS > GH.

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Rules were:
1)No Soothing Lights or Temp Item boxes because there was no way for me to keep them consistent.
2)Same Spell Set.
3)Utususemi was used as needed.
4)Stoneskin was only used every 5 min.
5)Atma: RR/VV/MM
6)1 hour.
7)Solo all mobs.

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I find your rules... odd.

1)Temp/and SL's, sure, for parity, that should be that way.

2)Why should different /subs have the same spell set? Different /subs obviously provide different strengths and weaknesses... And an identical spell set will not produce even results for that reason. You should be playing with a spell set tailored to what you're doing and what you're subbing, As you naturally would, keeping them the same will skew.

3&4) Utsu 'as needed' is vague, and style dependant, especially when you're arbitrarily limiting how often you cast stoneskin... If stoneskin is an argument to offset /Nin viability, you should be using it as often as viable.... Or rather, 'as needed' Cast times add up after all.

7) OP asked for DD. That implies you are filling a DD role in a pt, and Solo is not the same environment. SO, if you had better results solo as /rdm than you did /nin... I don't know that this bears any relevance to results you would have in a PT setting.

Tangentially, I find it really annoying that when people downplay /NIN they say it's because you can set DW2 natively... When you you can set Fast Cast and MAB natively too. IN the current era of so many valid DD spells, being able to cast a .5 second cast spell 5% faster (and .7 seconds sooner!) seems asinine as an argument for damage augmentation.

Edit: additionally, In your parse you cast fewer spells by a significant margin on /nin... which you could explain away by virtue of Convert.... Now tell me why you have more WS on /rdm? Or why your Vorpal is 200 points Avg higher on your /rdm ?

Or why Damage taken/Healed is absent from the parse. /RDM proponents talk endlessly of convert, but -especially- since you're solo, that additional damage taken has to be recovered, and that's MP spent. Sanguine won't soak that much damage alone (from experience since my my avg SB /nin is 300 higher than your parse data /rdm)

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Originally Posted by renasci

I find your rules... odd.

1)Temp/and SL's, sure, for parity, that should be that way.

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Because getting Temps every 10 seconds in a group or going 2 minutes in between temp chests popping can happen thus skewing either sub would likely happen.

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Originally Posted by renasci

2)Why should different /subs have the same spell set? Different /subs obviously provide different strengths and weaknesses... And an identical spell set will not produce even results for that reason. You should be playing with a spell set tailored to what you're doing and what you're subbing, As you naturally would, keeping them the same will skew.

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Because I didn't see the point at the time in swapping spell sets for MAB/Fast Cast with /NIN and DW2 with /RDM at the cost of the stats from other spells.

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Originally Posted by renasci

3&4) Utsu 'as needed' is vague, and style dependant, especially when you're arbitrarily limiting how often you cast stoneskin... If stoneskin is an argument to offset /Nin viability, you should be using it as often as viable.... Or rather, 'as needed' Cast times add up after all.

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If a mob dies in 1 shadow I didn't recast Ni unless it ate my last shadow.

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Originally Posted by renasci

7) OP asked for DD. That implies you are filling a DD role in a pt, and Solo is not the same environment. SO, if you had better results solo as /rdm than you did /nin... I don't know that this bears any relevance to results you would have in a PT setting.

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When I used to use my BLU as a DD in groups there was no difference than soloing other than there were people in the party. I still soloed mobs for azure kills.

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Originally Posted by renasci

Edit: additionally, In your parse you cast fewer spells by a significant margin on /nin... which you could explain away by virtue of Convert.... Now tell me why you have more WS on /rdm? Or why your Vorpal is 200 points Avg higher on your /rdm ?

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Less down time on kills as to more WS. As to the 200 higher on /RDM I honestly don't know.

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Originally Posted by renasci

Or why Damage taken/Healed is absent from the parse. /RDM proponents talk endlessly of convert, but -especially- since you're solo, that additional damage taken has to be recovered, and that's MP spent. Sanguine won't soak that much damage alone (from experience since my my avg SB /nin is 300 higher than your parse data /rdm)

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The parse was an old one and only cared about the damage at the time so didn't think to save all of it. Though I remember I stayed around 60% HP on /RDM so Converts weren't wasted since I didn't have an MP build.

To clarify, I was agreeing with you on your SL/Temps rule.

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Less down time on kills as to more WS. As to the 200 higher on /RDM I honestly don't know.

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I don't follow what you mean by this; there should not have been any downtime at all, between shadows/sanguine/minikin, you will always have enough MP for headbutt and HP to survive, and... I don't see another reason for not being engaged. Since /nin has increased survivability and melee DoT, It seems to me that the entire point of parsing /nin vs. /rdm would be to continue on regardless of MP level.

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Originally Posted by renasci

To clarify, I was agreeing with you on your SL/Temps rule.



I don't follow what you mean by this; there should not have been any downtime at all, between shadows/sanguine/minikin, you will always have enough MP for headbutt and HP to survive, and... I don't see another reason for not being engaged. Since /nin has increased survivability and melee DoT, It seems to me that the entire point of parsing /nin vs. /rdm would be to continue on regardless of MP level.

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Miss reading on my part, I read parity as party and didn't understand what you wrote due to that.

Edit: Downtime in the sense that with /NIN I was doing slower kills due to lower MP. For the most part doing a slower kill with just melee/ws was enough to allow MM/battery to restore MP but the ladybugs had crazy triple attack rate if I remember correctly which left me needing to /heal more with /nin than /rdm.

Edit 2: I'm assuming the crazy triple attack rate tbh the parse was old and I haven't really done testing lately as my BLU is a whisker whore now.

lol did this topic seriously get necro'd?

Is this still an issue? I simply don't see how you can adamantly say that /RDM offers anything to the offensive power of BLU over /NIN to where /RDM is head and shoulders above the competition. You should not be having enough MP troubles to say that Convert adds so much to your overall damage that it causes /RDM to beat out /NIN in almost any conceivable situation. I'm not saying you're one of these BLUs, Zagen, although proof remains to be seen to the contrary: I've seen more and more Blue Mages that believe melee damage is not a part of a Blue Mage's damage spread. I simply don't understand this mindset. You don't need an Almace to have your melee DoT and weaponskill damage contribute to your overall damage output.

/NIN offers more to this part of your damage than /RDM does. Period. You shouldn't be using Sanguine Blade on anything that matters, in fact, you shouldn't be using it for pure damage purposes to begin with. Vorpal Blade will outperform it every time.

/RDM offers a slight advantage in the magical portion of your damage. Fast Cast is a moot point. Every offensive physicla blue magic spell casts so quickly that fast cast will not be providing any readily discernible advantage over the settable fast cast trait, or no fast cast trait at all. The recast reduction, while welcome, is also miniscule. It's basic math and simple to comprehend.

Prothscar I agree with what you're saying to a degree. When I looked at it on paper I got the same results /NIN should be better than /RDM. The thing is on paper is one thing in practice is another. I always looked at "on paper" results as the best you could possibly be after all when I math things out on paper there is nothing taken into account for uncontrollable variables (lag, player reaction time, monsters getting odd triple attack rounds, etc.) That's why I run parses to let me know what is actually better for me as a player who makes errors who is affected by random variables.

That said this should only apply to EXP/trash mobs, our blink spells are "nice" but blink is crap compared to Utsusemi on Anything that doesn't just plain wipe shadows 100% of the time NM wise.

Although I do have a question that was sort of a curiosity I haven't had time to math out maybe you've already tested it. Under the assumption Utsusemi isn't needed are Warcry and Berserk a substantial boost to damage for an Almace BLU to go /WAR over /NIN?

I can't really justify /WAR over /NIN, you lose a bit too much. I'm sure there's a situation where it could be useful, but... :X

Oh christ here we go again with the /RDM /NIN debate, lets just all agree to disagree and drop it. People are still going to sub /RDM, and some people will still sub /NIN, hell some people will even sub /DNC. Really I think this topic met its end when people stopped posting in it like a month ago.

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Oh christ here we go again with the /RDM /NIN debate, lets just all agree to disagree and drop it. People are still going to sub /RDM, and some people will still sub /NIN, hell some people will even sub /DNC. Really I think this topic met its end when people stopped posting in it like a month ago.

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It's not as though I was trying to necro post... but when you have topics that are a month old on the FRONT page of the forum...

Besides, the tone is much more civil given the lapse in time.

so... really I think you're over reacting, especially since your contributions to the thread thus far have only been complaints.

There is no reason to sub RDM for DD purposes.

Convert is irrelevant, Refresh 1 can be made up with Battery Charge, Fast Cast 2 does not contribute enough.

The best damage dealing support job is /NIN. No amount of additional attack, stats, accuracy which you can recieve from any other support job will benefit you more than the delay reduction of the Dual Wield 3 trait.

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1. That is why its a necro post, and that is why this post kinda should of died out. Because we are just going to get into the senseless debate for those that are for /RDM, and those that are for /NIN. Although both are very good subs for BLU, this is going to go nowhere. It doesn't even cover the original idea of subjobs for BLU, it pretty much has boiled it down to /RDM vs /NIN GO!
2. This post is not on the front page, I by no means see this near the forum trackers, all it is, is in the BLU section of the forums. So front page? What are you talkin about? Highlighted in red for the frequent amount of posts.... Yes, yet as I stated that was a MONTH ago.
3. Complaining? You've been here 7 posts and your going to say all I do in these forums is complain? Haha Ya...... No.
4. how about you read 4 pages back and realize that I am by no means over reacting, and you have clearly walked into a dead topic, that will not go one side or the other. Its literally an endless stalemate that one side will not prove to the other that one side is better then the other. Its at this point that debating a topic becomes pointless when neither side will reach a compromise.

So in short, let a topic that is going nowhere.... Stay NOWHERE. K, Thanks =)

the reason you should never ever recommend /rdm for a DD blu is because people will just spam spells, convert, spam spells. it's one thing to zerg but another to get yourself killed, feed an NM tp, and end up wasting all your MP on curing because you stole all the hate. or wast the whm's mp.

there's not enough of a point to /rdm if you're only purpose is to DD. may as well /war.

/rdm can be all well and good, just make it situational. unless you are using a PDT- build, no RDM magic will do anything for you and the only purpose is for fast cast, MAB, and convert.

Yes this I can agree with Defiled, I full well understand /RDM is not a subjob to be held above all else as the grand master. No. Many other jobs are well suited, but as /RDM have their situations. While I will admit for solo purposes and tanking I would argue that /NIN is where its at hands down. /RDM is nice, but it just can't compete with /NIN. Thats the problem with this debate is that its far to black and white for a job that is meant to be grey.

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2. This post is not on the front page, I by no means see this near the forum trackers, all it is, is in the BLU section of the forums. So front page? What are you talkin about? Highlighted in red for the frequent amount of posts.... Yes, yet as I stated that was a MONTH ago.
3. Complaining? You've been here 7 posts and your going to say all I do in these forums is complain? Haha Ya...... No.
4. how about you read 4 pages back and realize that I am by no means over reacting, and you have clearly walked into a dead topic, that will not go one side or the other. Its literally an endless stalemate that one side will not prove to the other that one side is better then the other. Its at this point that debating a topic becomes pointless when neither side will reach a compromise.

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/sigh, forum ate post

2)the FRONT PAGE of the BLU FORUM

4)I read the entire thread. This should be abundantly clear by my post referencing Zagen's post on the page immediately prior. Prothscar and Zagen both strike me as being both knowledgeable, and (equally important) coherent. They justhappen to be on opposite sides of the fence (which led to the debate getting somewhat heated)

3) Post Count =/= Join Date. The rabid tone of your posts is rather tiresome.

Further, I said all you did in this THREAD was complain. Which really only reinforces my perception that you don't read the posts you respond to very carefully, as you are too eager to get to the reply button and hear your self type

Well hey, the forum needs people to be wrong too renasci, glad you stepped up to assume that role. You set for the punch first with a statement less then civil so you brought it upon yourself. Your clearly derailing a thread that you necro'd to begin with by making it more so of a vendetta you have because I may have "hurt your feelings". Also, I didn't complain until you nero'd a dead topic, and yes I love hearing myself talk. It makes it better to read myself then to have to read slanderous jargon spouted out by others. =)

Anyway, I find myself done here, all this will end up being is a p**sing contest between /NIN and /RDM like it was when it ended A MONTH AGO. Now its going to jump between that and those of us that are quick to slander others.

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Anyway, I find myself done here, all this will end up being is a p**sing contest between /NIN and /RDM like it was when it ended A MONTH AGO. Now its going to jump between that and those of us that are quick to slander others.

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I must say, I'm impressed, it's awfully big of you to admit this about yourself.

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Originally Posted by hordecore

is IT STIll NINJA or RDM?

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Of course this totally depends on the situation you are heading into, if you are solo 90 DD MNK then /DNC can be amazing, but this totally depends on your current level and of course the list jobs you have leveled to pick for subs in the 1st place,
if you are a low level say 50 or below then the best 2 sub jobs ive found are /BLU (with all the spells for you need) or /RDM (great for the enhancing spells) but if you are lower then /BST is very hard to beat (the exp comes thick and fast)

but as far as current game play, your job, party members jobs and availible atmas make it hard to answer your question but I would stick to /DNC or a mage sub (I do), I have found that NIN is only helpfull in certian situations as you will only use the sub for shadows and a large majority of mobs in abyssea and elsewhere will strip them almost as soon as you have cast them, wasting time and tools, /DNC is much better then /NIN as a sub as you get at level 45
* Cure I, II and III
* Curga
* Erase
* Sneak and invis
* Haste samba
* Drain Samba I and II
* 3 forms of Steps, Evasion down, MAB down, Defence down
* Referse flourish
(plus others ive forgotten) :P

Played with /thf tonight since cdc is such a beast I think sexy is back imho lol...

Basically TA CDC on Tank for 2-3k or more then SA+BT for 5-6k and get darkness for same its a blast....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...exyIsBack2.jpg

Oh like to add proc red is pure profit lol makes using SA a breeze lol...

/RDM is the premier support job for Charged Whisker burning.

With proper gear, buffs, and atma, BA+Charged Whisker can deal upwards of 5-6k damage to everything within range.

The damage dealt is limited only by how many mobs one can gather together (or have gathered together) within the 2:00 recast on Burst Affinity.

Total damage dealt per minute could easily exceed that of typical sword-swinging, CDC-and-spell-spamming /NIN damage dealing.

If the above is true, then /RDM is the premier damage-dealing support job.

Yeah rdm is ok if your aoeing but heck I get those same numbers doing it /thf /nin whatever its more atma then sub job and if ur doing it solo or not charged whisker on glavoid and see how far that gets u.

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Originally Posted by Ryozen

If the above is true, then /RDM is the premier damage-dealing support job.

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Originally Posted by kenshyn

charged whisker on glavoid and see how far that gets u.

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This. I've already said that /RDM is best for whisker burning, in fact I have an entire guide on the subject. As kenshyn said, try doing that on anything other than AoE burn mobs. It won't work.

Never once did I suggest using Charged Whisker on a single mob.

I was providing a literal answer to the question proposed in the thread topic, albeit not in the manner that the OP had probably intended.

And by definition, you won't get the same numbers /THF or /NIN as you would /RDM, as they do not provide Magic Atk. Bonus II.

Difference between MAB I and MAB II is 4 MAB, which after everything is said and done is less then 4%. Assuming 30 MAB in gear and 50 MAB from Ultimate Atma and no Memento Mori (just for simplicity), 100 MAB vs 104 MAB. (2.04/2.00) = 1.02, or 2% difference. The more MAB you get the less that 4 MAB from sub means. In actual use the difference will be non-perceptive, you'd need a parser over a few hundred casts to detect any difference.

/NIN = DW3, DW3 = 25% DW. Shadows are ok for the times their useful, otherwise I couldn't care less.
/RDM (/THF, /WAR, /WHM) = DW2 = 15% DW

With Suppa you get 30% DW vs 20% DW.
100/70 = 1.428 (42.8% increase in DPS from DWIII)
100/80 = 1.25 (25% increase in DPS from DWII)
1.428/1.25 = 1.1424, DWIII is effectively 14.24% Melee DPS increase over DWII. The points you save from not having to set DWII you can spend in +10% DA, where as /RDM would be required to spend both the points for DA and DWII. Normally I'd give RDM more credit for it's free MAB, but MAB can be as low as 3 points with 4 being more common using Dream Flower.

Honestly the only way I can justify /RDM is if I need to use healing magic. Blue cures are calculated ~exactly~ the same way White Magic cures are. Thus having healing magic skill from sub significantly enhances the amount of HP cure on all healing spells. WoP / H.Breeze / P.Embrace / M.Fruit are all pretty powerful when your /RDM or /WHM.

DW3 has only further cemented /NIN as the only subjob for 1H DD's

I've always used /nin then i found this amazing sub called /dnc. I personal use it for utility and it also offers the missing 5% weapon delay (without tp penalty lol) but since this update it's been pretty good on zerging something real quick. WS > cast > reverse tp DURING melee > WS > cast. I haven't tested CA > cast during azure lore (incase anyone asks you can't blu cast > blu cast for self sc) but in the end it's really situational.

If you're fighting something that hits fast, aoe spell/tp/ws, or terribad enfeebles and you're a blu main then this sub definitely helps. If doing abyssea then you can also /rdm especially if aoe farming for ki. The list simply goes on and on even as th3 /thf.

Er what? Using steps/flourishes lowers your DoT pretty badly especially since you're not a dnc main, so you aren't getting that delay reduction for 'free'.

Well /thf for me is pretty much all win went from doing this on bombs farming for ft seals:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...alis/bt82k.png

To Farming time on worms in La thiene:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...wsubbedthf.png

So to me sexy is back in play again...

Who cares about BNS when your fighting lol trash seal mobs really thier half dead by time you get a proc half the time. Gl trying to get CW off on anything that absorbs dmg durning tp moves or spellcasting. The risk of healing is to high for to much HP that could be healed.

That's why you wait for red proc then unload while it can't do anything. Apparently.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

That's why you wait for red proc then unload while it can't do anything. Apparently.

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Thinking this is sarcasm but hard to tell on here some times, but by time you get CW off you could had spamed Quad. continumm, Goblin rush detla thrust, whole number of spells (fyi those are the spells I remember how to spell off the top of my head your results may differ). And now that those spells with Skill chain will each other under Azure Lore far more dmg to be had.

Except that for most targets that are worth killing, you'd be lucky to get more than a few hundred damage each from those spells, due to how poorly physical damage spells fare against mobs with half-decent DEF or levels much above your own.

And if you're 'spaming' a mob that has absorb phases, you're not remedying the situation you proposed.

I don't even bother using physical spells on non trash mobs outside of CA/Efflux/potentially 2 hour, haven't tested it, if I was /thf then that too.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

I don't even bother using physical spells on non trash mobs outside of CA/Efflux/potentially 2 hour, haven't tested it, if I was /thf then that too.

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Disseverment, BT, and DT are the only ones worth casting on an NM type mob for their additional effects without CA or EFF imo.

Should have mentioned Diss/BT as well, but for pure damage it just got depressing using non buffed spells on worthwhile mobs so I just cast those and focused on DD.

I've never had DT's plague hit a NM, must just be me.

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

Thinking this is sarcasm but hard to tell on here some times, but by time you get CW off you could had spamed Quad. continumm, Goblin rush detla thrust, whole number of spells (fyi those are the spells I remember how to spell off the top of my head your results may differ). And now that those spells with Skill chain will each other under Azure Lore far more dmg to be had.

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You're telling me that you think our other spells can do 5932 x 15 = 88,980 in 5 seconds?

My CW are a bit higher now but that's the last number I have a screenshot in mis. coast where my friend and I farm atm and 15 is the largest pull i can remember counting the deaths on vs. exp gained.

Don't get me wrong playing Azure Lore to make a long chain in the 30 seconds it is up will be fun but I can do that damage with Charged Whiskers every 90 seconds and the damage is only limited by the size of the pull.

Edit: If you're talking about CW on trash NMs then LOL you're doing it wrong CW is for AoE farming. Also since you're there likely to proc your damage will be worse than normal regardless due to setting spells and losing time from setting them or losing stats/traits from having all 3 possible spells set ahead of time.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Should have mentioned Diss/BT as well, but for pure damage it just got depressing using non buffed spells on worthwhile mobs so I just cast those and focused on DD.

I've never had DT's plague hit a NM, must just be me.

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huh? we need to get you a pair of MACC sticks asap!!!:p

Screw those swords >< Str/Dex alone make me want to punch a wall, and PDT sword is on hold as is.

Full Macc merits atm anyway, changing them later.