Ukko's Fury DD Atma Combos

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

I never notice when I give up 182 attack either, thats so minmal, I bet it only increase damage like 1%.

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Depends on the mob, but generally these days Berserk up w/ 6hit is capped attack on things other than Heroes/Voidwatch.

So once you cap attack it doesn't matter as much, that's why they would parse closer to each other, even though 5hit is still pretty bad.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Depends on the mob, but generally these days Berserk up w/ 6hit is capped attack on things other than Heroes/Voidwatch.

So once you cap attack it doesn't matter as much, that's why they would parse closer to each other, even though 5hit is still pretty bad.

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If you have a million mobs whacking on you with Retaliation up, there isn't a huge problem, but I noticed that when you have an NM on you, a 5 hit build can self-light a lot more times than a 6 hit can. Which helps the kill speed a lot more imo. Despite the -att and less DA you get from a 5 hit build, you can still kill the NM a lot faster with a 5 hit than a 6 hit. Get Level 2 Aftermath more often too since you would have 200% TP more often with a 5 hit than 6.

But these are just my observations.

On a side note, I asked this on a different thread and got no response, maybe somebody here can tell me: What is the slow % on Ukko's Fury?

No, 6 hit is better than 5 hit, we explained why stop arguing because you're wrong and making yourself look worse with each post.

Slow on Ukko's I believe is unknown. Probably around 10% I'd guess.

Additionally, 6 hit parses better overall than a 5hit. Especially outside where you don't cap fSTR and dDEX just be being there. You lose 35 attack and 3% DA in one slot for instance, and Attack can mean a hell of a lot.

Even inside it loses in a simple parse. I saw it explained beautifully in a thead on FFXIAH.com

Crits increase your pDIF by 1.0. Let's say the mob has 600 Defense. With a 5hit you have around 550. You're doing 91% of the damage you would be with a simple 6hit per hit. Your crits do 191% damage, before critical damage bonus. However when you optimize a 6hit you end up at around 850 attack, meaning your attacks do 141% damage, and crits do 241% damage.

On a 5 hit you lose out on both Crit Rate and Attack, so you're losing about 60% DPS in TP rounds, for a slight increase in WS frequency.

There's no two ways about it, 6 hit will win in terms of simple DPS. Plus there's the human error, over TPing and the like, which has a much wider berth when using a 5hit than it does a 6 hit.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Ukko%27s_Fury

You can thank Byrth and Phaffi for doing the testing.

Also supposedly 30% crit rate but small sample size of 200 WS etc.

I've review the suggesstions on Uko Atmas. I honestly have nothing against any of them. RR SS Apoc being a very good exmple. However, the one combo that peaks My Intrest is Razed Ruins, Sanguine Scythe, and Gnarled Horn.

GH is plain out stupid for high-end WAR's.

Ukko's Fury: +30% Crit Rate base, RR +30%, dDEX+20%, Merits+5%

that's 85% right there, GH gives 20% which is over cap. HUGE waste of an atma slot compared to apoc.

(Note: Rancor Collar gives 5%, pushing you to 90%, the other 10% can be from Zahak's, Claymore Grip, Light Earring aug'd, Trophy Legs, N legs, any combonation of those. AND YOU WILL CAP CRIT RATE on Ukko's Fury. Apoc will make this shine even more, since TA can proc on Ukko's Fury)

Chiming in again, yea for WSing, Gnarled Horn is pretty much wasted potential, but in terms of Meleeing that Extra 20% goes further than 15% Triple Attack, that is STRICTLY Melee tho, when you factor WS damage, Apoc will win by a large margin. So if your like starting out a party dont wanna start WSing yet and dont mind changing Atmas, Gnarled Horn isnt a bad option for a "Pearl Jam" Oh, and I wanted to point out something that Ive been overlooking for Abyssea use, and probably alot of people over look this too...

Stalwart's Tonic / Gambir?

Yes I know, I know, its a Temporary item but after using these, Ive found that the Tonic is just about as strong as Bergressor if not stronger (with Berserk up + This I hit 999 so not exactly sure of the Attack Bonus, gotta check when I get home to actually see and ill let you guys know what I find) and it lasts a full 5 minutes. And in a party, we are replenished with Temporary Items very frequently so in Abyssea, you can reliably have this Temp Item in a Macro and expect it to be pretty much be there lol. And the Gambir is much stronger (probably twice as strong) as the Tonic but I couldnt see exactly how much because with Food up + Gambir attack = 999 so gonna have to go naked w/o food to see for sure.

The point in all this? This temporary Item will make up for the attack loss in using a 5-hit build more than likely or even it out enough so that if you wanted to, you could have your cake, and eat it too. Not saying any one way is better than any other way, just food for thought because no one has mentioned the Temporary Items yet and I honestly didnt even remember these things existed until 2 nights ago when I forgot my food at a raid lol

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Actually, if you wanted to you could just use the Temporary Items and never worry about buying food again! xD +25% to Attack (not sure exact % yet) with no cap? thats pretty damn good imo

Edit#2:
Cruor Buffs, NO Food, No JA Attack = 593
Cruor Buffs, No Food, No JA, with Tonic Attack = 741

thats +19.98% (+20%) Attack with no cap, I like it and the Gambir is probably +40% have to get ahold of another one to know for sure though

were to start 20% crit is not beating out the 15% tripple attack when youve got a 75% base crit rate already.
That being said its pointless working on 5 hit when its trash outside abyssea. Temps is nice yes but you cant rely on it being up 24/7.

6-hit is better than 5-hit & gnarled horn is a waste of time. You're also not factoring that TA not only increases weapon skill damage but it also increases the frequency. As said, the only time 5-hit is useful is if you're able to WS at approx 100tp every time, you're highly unlikely to do this with the sheer amount of DA/TA you have, so that excess TP contributes towards weapon skill damage.

So you'd be better of with a 6-hit which doesn't make any sacrifices, and possibly shorter delay to further your weapon skill frequency.

And yes, I know only too well about temp items as I have a masa sam :(

Actually, if you read what I said more closely, I was talking strictly about Melee...

Merits 5%
dDEX 20%
Razed Ruins 30%
Claymore Grip 3%
Rancor Collar 5%

thats 63% Critical hit rate base, adding Gnarled Horn will push that up to 83% (Atma boost caps at +50%?) which is very impressive for Melee DoT. Now you can simply check this on Paper to find that *FOR MELEE ONLY* Gnarled Horn > Apoc and ill show it here.

Its a safe assumption that WAR Crits 3x harder than our Melee hits correct? so we'll just say our Melee hits are fixed at 350 Damage making each Crit 1050 Damage
And cuz Im oldschool we'll just say its Bravura were using and not counting the hidden effect so
488 Delay - Gear Haste - Hasso = 317 Delay = 5.28 seconds per attack = 681 Attacks per hour
using a Rancor Collar, your DA Rate will be 29%

Ill start with Apocalypse Atma:
Swing Ratio (being Generous) 44:29:15
Swings per Hour: 300:394:306 = 1000 Swings per hour (lol 1000 Exactly)
Critical Hits per Hour (63%) = 630 Critical Hits and 370 Normal Hits
Normal: 370 x 350 = 129,500 Damage per Hour
Critical: 630 x 1050 = 661,500 Damage per Hour
Total: 791,000 Damage Per Hour
WSs per Hour (6/5 Hit): 199 (This is assuming a dream world where WS Animation is tiny and doesnt stop our melee lol)

Gnarled Horn Atma:
Swing Ratio: 71:29
Swings per Hour: 483 + 394 = 877 (12.3% Fewer Swings)
Critical Hits per Hour (83%) = 728 (13.5% More Crits) and 149 Normal Hits
Normal: 149 x 350 = 52,150
Critical: 728 x 1050 = 764,400
Total Damage per Hour: 816,550 (3.2% More)
WS's per Hour = 175 (12.1% Fewer WSs)

Can see simply enough that if you do not want to WS, Gnarled Horn will do more damage than Apoc Atma. And I stress MELEE DOT ONLY keep getting replies where people arent reading what Im saying lol. I dont need to go into any probable math to see that when you start WSing, Apoc will poopoo on Gnarled Horn lol 12.1% fewer WSs and only 3.2% better Damage so its a "Pearl Jam" Atma only pretty much.

As for the Temporary Item, if your party is operating as it should, Azure should be kept high, and Blue Boxes should be opened on sight. Stalwart's Tonic lasts 5 minutes, and Item Boxes appear more frequently than Time Extensions more often than not. The odds of you *NOT* having a Stalwart's during an XP party (XP Party NOT a Raid) are staggering lol. So yea, you can pretty much count on having it, I just never really used it but Im definitely going to now xD

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Oh and I will say again, I AM NOT talking 6-hit vs 5-hit here Im just saying Gnarled Horn indeed has a purpose and that with Temporary Items, if your a WAR that likes a 5-hit Build, now you can get it and still keep a super high Attack, thats all Im saying lol

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Originally Posted by Yandaime

Actually, if you read what I said more closely, I was talking strictly about Melee...

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I don't know what the point of that is, even if that was true, why would you restrict it just to melee? A WAR's melee hits are also extremely strong, if you're trying to hold the NM, just stopping WS won't help much. And in that case, you wouldn't wanna deal much damage anyway. The only mobs it would be useful on are mobs that have you amnesia'd all the time, and even then the difference wouldn't be great.

Also 3x damage for critical hits sounds a bit high too, even with SS Atma. And the difference between these two isn't very big to begin with, so if you reduce your critical hit modifier a little, it becomes negligible. Maybe it's not entirely stupid to be using it, but it definitely isn't smart either.

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Originally Posted by Yandaime

Can see simply enough that if you do not want to WS

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This is where you lost me.

a situation where you dont wanna WS is at the start of the party where you dont want any Ruby at first, or a "Pearl Jam" and like I said, it has a purpose, never said it was a good one lol

Ahh I get you, you've made a solution for a problem that doesn't arise.

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Originally Posted by Yandaime

a situation where you dont wanna WS is at the start of the party where you dont want any Ruby at first, or a "Pearl Jam" and like I said, it has a purpose, never said it was a good one lol

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Personally, I would just ruby everything in sight. There's no reason not to kill everything as fast as possible. You're going to get more boxes killing as fast as possible than you would with no ruby kills.

pretty much lol. Theres always a better way of doing things, even if your doing silly things lol. I do like finding out more about the Temp Items tho, it was one of those things that just sat there in my inventory, ya know?

I'm fairly sure that if you account for having blood rage up 20% of the time, it will boost the damage of apoc atma that 3% to beat GH anyway. Even before you add in any WS.

GH is a wasted atma, go back to using Apoc, etc.

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Originally Posted by Yandaime

wrong math

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It's nice you wanted to math this out......... but its complete BS.
Crits don't do 3x normal hits unless you're terrible. You would basically need to have the lowest attack value you can achieve with WAR for crit to do 3x more, in your 'pearl jam' exp parties, this is absolutely not going to happen. (You would need pdif at 1, which isn't going to happen unless you full time defender and dont use any sort of attack buffs at all)