[dev1143] One-handed and Ranged Weapon Adjustments

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Originally Posted by Theytak

technically speaking, martial arts costs TP/hit just the same as DW, since they're both outright delay reductions rather than haste effects. Not saying that I disagree with you, since I'm a mnk and a pup and I know full well how strong h2h has always been, but I thought that was worth clarifying.

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Yeah, the point I was trying to make was that H2H is strong because of it's high base DPS, so it can make up for the loss of TP and WS frequency with melee damage.

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Originally Posted by darkhorror

Off handing a weapon that does so much less damage than the main hand weapon hurt's the DPS by a LOT.

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Off handing a weapon gives you the second weapon bonuses, be it Accuracy, Attack, stats, etc...
You can keep the severe damage from coruscanti, the critical damage boost from Aluh Jambiya or the eightfold attacks from Kraken Club (You won't have to worry for you DPS when you can WS every 5 seconds), and there are craftable weapons with very high DPS.

With the exact same modifiers, Dual Wield is way too overpowered. It's why 2-handed weapons were changed in the first place. Change dual wield, and in several months, no one will ever use 2-handed, so SE will need to upgrade the bonuses, so people will complain about one handed weapons, etc, etc...until anyone can OS any monster.

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Originally Posted by Himrik

Off handing a weapon gives you the second weapon bonuses, be it Accuracy, Attack, stats, etc...
You can keep the severe damage from coruscanti, the critical damage boost from Aluh Jambiya or the eightfold attacks from Kraken Club (You won't have to worry for you DPS when you can WS every 5 seconds), and there are craftable weapons with very high DPS.

With the exact same modifiers, Dual Wield is way too overpowered. It's why 2-handed weapons were changed in the first place. Change dual wield, and in several months, no one will ever use 2-handed, so SE will need to upgrade the bonuses, so people will complain about one handed weapons, etc, etc...until anyone can OS any monster.

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Dual wielders aren't even close to surpassing 2 handers in damage. Don't kid yourself. That bonus stat from the offhand doesn't change anything.

If you seriously think that the stats from offhand can overpower the base damage and fSTR cap differences you probably don't know very much about how the game works. In order for it to happen they'd need to add some very overpowered weapons that work for the offhand.

That aside, I'm not sure how to feel about the decided change for MNKs. It's true that they are stronger than all the other 1Hers but last I checked they were still pretty behind jobs like WAR and DRK when the buffs go up. Not sure how big the difference is though.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,

There has been a variety of feedback both for and against these changes, especially in regards to how it will affect those that dual wield and use hand-to-hand weapons. The development team's goal is to make adjustments so that there is balance between two-handed weapons and one-handed weapons.

In regards to hand-to-hand weapons, we'd like to go about these adjustments carefully or else there may be too big of a jump in power, so we will be making some slight adjustments during the next Test Server update. The 75% STR modifier that is currently only applied to the right hand will be slightly reduced to 62.5% and we will be applying it to both hands. (The 75% DEX modifier for both hands will not change.)

We'll continue to update you on any planned changes!

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but giving us a 141 dmg H2H weapon was fine.... i lol'd

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Originally Posted by Kincard

If you seriously think that the stats from offhand can overpower the base damage and fSTR cap differences you probably don't know very much about how the game works. In order for it to happen they'd need to add some very overpowered weapons that work for the offhand.

That aside, I'm not sure how to feel about the decided change for MNKs. It's true that they are stronger than all the other 1Hers but last I checked they were still pretty behind jobs like WAR and DRK when the buffs go up. Not sure how big the difference is though.

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I'm more concerned with how fragile monk is. I haven't done any Delve NMs etc. with any super elite geared groups, just pickups. My damage seems fine VS Sams, Drks etc., but perfect dodge counter doesn't keep you alive like seigon / third eye when that mob turns your way.

I don't see how it's too large of a jump in power.

h2h is the only category that doesn't get anything at all in the offhand. No grips, no dw. etc. We can't reach the amount of haste that 2handers can with hasso, which will always keep them at top in damage in anything that matters (for example, the only delve megaboss clears have all been zerg parties; soul voice marches, embrava, etc.)

And comparing to DW, we get no kinds of stats to put in the offhand at all. Can't add a lower delay wep in the offhand to enhance martial arts. Can't put something with acc/attack/crit damage in the offhand.

There's no reason for the second punch to be treated as an offhand to begin with. There's no bonus for that slot that every other job has access to.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,

There has been a variety of feedback both for and against these changes, especially in regards to how it will affect those that dual wield and use hand-to-hand weapons. The development team's goal is to make adjustments so that there is balance between two-handed weapons and one-handed weapons.

In regards to hand-to-hand weapons, we'd like to go about these adjustments carefully or else there may be too big of a jump in power, so we will be making some slight adjustments during the next Test Server update. The 75% STR modifier that is currently only applied to the right hand will be slightly reduced to 62.5% and we will be applying it to both hands. (The 75% DEX modifier for both hands will not change.)

We'll continue to update you on any planned changes!

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Bolded text for emphasis. Are you saying that some people are against the idea of boosting one handed weapons? Because I have a hard time believing that. In that case, who are against it?

Could you also comment on the issue of only increasing the accuracy of the sub-slot weapon? In which instances would dual wielders such as thf, dnc, nin and blu be getting too much attack power by having their sub-weapon also gain 75% of their STR as attack?

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

I don't see how it's too large of a jump in power.

h2h is the only category that doesn't get anything at all in the offhand. No grips, no dw. etc. We can't reach the amount of haste that 2handers can with hasso, which will always keep them at top in damage in anything that matters (for example, the only delve megaboss clears have all been zerg parties; soul voice marches, embrava, etc.)

And comparing to DW, we get no kinds of stats to put in the offhand at all. Can't add a lower delay wep in the offhand to enhance martial arts. Can't put something with acc/attack/crit damage in the offhand.

There's no reason for the second punch to be treated as an offhand to begin with. There's no bonus for that slot that every other job has access to.

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This is a stupid argument and you should feel embarrassed putting it forward. Look at other posts in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

This is a stupid argument and you should feel embarrassed putting it forward. Look at other posts in this thread.

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Of course it's stupid. He recommends SV marchES along with Embrava, and in his previous post he said how Perfect Dodge doesn't help MNK much lol.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

This is a stupid argument and you should feel embarrassed putting it forward. Look at other posts in this thread.

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meh, was half asleep; at least give h2h grips if they want to go back and gimp the update before even implementing it

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Of course it's stupid. He recommends SV marchES along with Embrava, and in his previous post he said how Perfect Dodge doesn't help MNK much lol.

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never recommended it was just throwing out haste buffs off the top of my head; though I actually went back and double checked if I posted perfect dodge. Was pretty lulz and looks like I didn't :(

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

I don't see how it's too large of a jump in power.

h2h is the only category that doesn't get anything at all in the offhand. No grips, no dw. etc. We can't reach the amount of haste that 2handers can with hasso, which will always keep them at top in damage in anything that matters (for example, the only delve megaboss clears have all been zerg parties; soul voice marches, embrava, etc.)

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Except you only need 66% haste to reach cap on MNK, with 25% from gear that means you only need an extra 41% from spells. Marchx2 and Haste spell does that, Embrava and Haste spell puts you at 40% which would mean bard could do attack or acc songs instead.

Oh and spell haste caps at ~43.5% so as long as you are getting haste spell SV marchex2 is a waste, or march, and embrava is also a waste.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

Is this just for Hand-to-Hand weapons or all one-handed (dual wield) weapons?

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The adjustment mentioned in my previous post is only for hand-to-hand weapons.

This is being adjusted in order to tone down damage dealt from weapon skills; however, regular attacks will not see much of a difference from this change.

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Originally Posted by darkhorror

Except you only need 66% haste to reach cap on MNK, with 25% from gear that means you only need an extra 41% from spells. Marchx2 and Haste spell does that, Embrava and Haste spell puts you at 40% which would mean bard could do attack or acc songs instead.

Oh and spell haste caps at ~43.5% so as long as you are getting haste spell SV marchex2 is a waste, or march, and embrava is also a waste.

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One post above you brah

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was just throwing out haste buffs off the top of my head

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

though I actually went back and double checked if I posted perfect dodge. Was pretty lulz and looks like I didn't :(

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Sorry about that. It seems I've been posting whilst drunk >.>

And you're right it was Frankreynolds in the post above yours that said how PD does little for MNK.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

We can't reach the amount of haste that 2handers can with hasso, which will always keep them at top in damage in anything that matters(for example, the only delve megaboss clears have all been zerg parties; soul voice marches, embrava, etc.)

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clears report i got set ups:
-type1: anhi/yoichi RNG as main DDs
-type2 : (mnk*2 DD cor brd whm)*2 +magePT

that make more place for mnk than for 2hander

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

I don't see how it's too large of a jump in power.

h2h is the only category that doesn't get anything at all in the offhand. No grips, no dw. etc. We can't reach the amount of haste that 2handers can with hasso, which will always keep them at top in damage in anything that matters (for example, the only delve megaboss clears have all been zerg parties; soul voice marches, embrava, etc.)

And comparing to DW, we get no kinds of stats to put in the offhand at all. Can't add a lower delay wep in the offhand to enhance martial arts. Can't put something with acc/attack/crit damage in the offhand.

There's no reason for the second punch to be treated as an offhand to begin with. There's no bonus for that slot that every other job has access to.

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Wow wow wow.... is this really Cream Soda posting? Or an alien troll who took control of his body?
Whoa...

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Sorry about that. It seems I've been posting whilst drunk >.>

And you're right it was Frankreynolds in the post above yours that said how PD does little for MNK.

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Just finished reading the thief forums before I posted that. lol Seriously though. Monk needs to be a little less squishy imo.

I think it's time to introduce the long overdue sub slot for H2H: Grip, tape, cloth, warps...whatever name they come up with it.

Mnk: Increase kick attack damage and/or frequency, more martial arts delay bonus, store TP...etc
Pup: Enhance pet effect, haste, accuracy...etc

BTW, Footwork is very very useless now. Any reason why it should not be removed or changed?

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

One post above you brah

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Except I was talking about where you said "We can't reach the amount of haste that 2handers can with hasso."

MNK only needs 66% haste to cap haste so doesn't need hasso, with 25% haste gear you don't even need to cap magic haste to cap delay reduction on MNK.

I think what he mean is Mnk has similar or even higher delay in high buff situations than say a 2H weapon job (war or drg for example). This is because the natural delay of empty H2H is 480. If you add in the weapon delay of +86, you get a 566 delay weapon that does not have the bonus of extra TP given by 2H weapon (the TP gain chart shows high TP gain on high delay weapon but doesn't seem to work with H2H). 2H weapon can easily reach 75% delay reduction with Hasso and cap haste (69%? haste) without losing any of the large TP it naturally gives. On the other hand, H2H has higher base delay and suffer from the reduced TP gain from martial arts trait.

I think this is one of the reason why SE is giving very high DPS for H2H weapon.

Look at this post.

Re-cap:
Monk with 7/8 or 8/8 H2H merits and Rigor Baghnakhs has a base damage per hand of 152 and a base DPS of 33.8 (with 0 Martial Arts traits).
Every other melee Delve weapon has 27.3~27.5 DPS.
Mage Delve weapons have ~23 DPS.

Hand-to-hand has a >20% weapon DPS advantage over other jobs, which they still possess at the delay cap. Monk has the distinction of being essentially the only 1H DD used in endgame at the moment because of this reason and their large HP pools.

Apart from "I want to fill the equipment slot", I can't see any compelling argument for giving "knuckle grips" or whatever other stupid shit monks have proposed over the years.



Nerf monk and buff 1H DDs so that they're all as powerful as monk currently is.

There are no 1 handed DD beside MNK. Nin is supposed to be a tank, blu a mage, thf a TH whore, DNC idk but definitely not DD, bst is for solo, pup idk ...

And the issue is not mnk vs other DDs, it's MNk and WAR vs others because let's face it, anything that is not mnk or war has been sucking at DDing for years, hence why nobody plays them.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Look at this post.

Re-cap:
Monk with 7/8 or 8/8 H2H merits and Rigor Baghnakhs has a base damage per hand of 152 and a base DPS of 33.8 (with 0 Martial Arts traits).
Every other melee Delve weapon has 27.3~27.5 DPS.
Mage Delve weapons have ~23 DPS.

Hand-to-hand has a >20% weapon DPS advantage over other jobs, which they still possess at the delay cap. Monk has the distinction of being essentially the only 1H DD used in endgame at the moment because of this reason and their large HP pools.

Apart from "I want to fill the equipment slot", I can't see any compelling argument for giving "knuckle grips" or whatever other stupid shit monks have proposed over the years.



Nerf monk and buff 1H DDs so that they're all as powerful as monk currently is.

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That is the main reason MNK can keep up with 2handers, and it's the reason 1hand jobs fall behind in damage dealing.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

There are no 1 handed DD beside MNK. Nin is supposed to be a tank, blu a mage, thf a TH whore, DNC idk but definitely not DD, bst is for solo, pup idk ...

And the issue is not mnk vs other DDs, it's MNk and WAR vs others because let's face it, anything that is not mnk or war has been sucking at DDing for years, hence why nobody plays them.

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You've obviously not seen a gimp SAM with delve weapon out-DDing pretty much everyone with the brokenness that is Tachi: Shoha.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

anything that is not mnk or war has been sucking at DDing for years, hence why nobody plays them.

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Except for all those silly DRKS running around hitting things with their Greatswords?

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

There are no 1 handed DD beside MNK. Nin is supposed to be a tank, blu a mage, thf a TH whore, DNC idk but definitely not DD, bst is for solo, pup idk ...

And the issue is not mnk vs other DDs, it's MNk and WAR vs others because let's face it, anything that is not mnk or war has been sucking at DDing for years, hence why nobody plays them.

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MarkovChain for most dogmatic member 2013.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

You've obviously not seen a gimp SAM with delve weapon out-DDing pretty much everyone with the brokenness that is Tachi: Shoha.

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Shoha isn't even SAMs best Weapon Skill.....

That's situational.

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Originally Posted by Taint2

Shoha isn't even SAMs best Weapon Skill.....

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Doesn't have to be the best to be broken, and once we can unlock RE WSs, SAM will only get better.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

You've obviously not seen a gimp SAM with delve weapon out-DDing pretty much everyone with the brokenness that is Tachi: Shoha.

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^or resolution dark knight.

don't know what that guy is talking about.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

There are no 1 handed DD beside MNK. Nin is supposed to be a tank, blu a mage, thf a TH whore, DNC idk but definitely not DD, bst is for solo, pup idk ...

And the issue is not mnk vs other DDs, it's MNk and WAR vs others because let's face it, anything that is not mnk or war has been sucking at DDing for years, hence why nobody plays them.

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I would put no Pup in the idk. Pup with Rigor and the alternator can do pretty well damage, stringing pummel is a very strong WS.

The other day in my parse, in the Big room in Morimar.

Buffs X2 march, x 2Minuet, Chaos/Hunters.

The Monk did 393k, The PUP did 342k but the automaton end doing 139k damage. The Monk was a Wicked monk, Thaumas, Usukane gear etc. The Pup was using Manibozho gear etc, nothing special. The damage the automaton end doing for my tastes is INSANE High

Talking about WAR VS others? WAR?? Seriously?. War in the present is suffering a lot because "Upheaval".

SAM and DRKS are ahead of WAR for Now, and is only because garbage WS War have use.

Upheaval just cant compete in damage vs Resolution Or Shoha. The only scenario where upheaval win is in MS, but this NMS dont die in 30 secs, this DELVE NM can live 3 - 4 mins of intense zerg Fight.

i would put like this. Vs DELVE NMS. Raptor, Eft, Peiste, orobon, moth.

High Buff situations

SAM and DRK ahead of everything else.

MNK - Is good but it cant beat a Good DRK resolution and the WS frecuently will just end beating a MNK.

WAR but only retarted good Warriors.


Medium/Low Buff situations

SAM - Shoha attack boost is Sex.

DRK Dark cant /war, you cant eat RCB and resolution attack penalty will hurt a lot the damage vs NMS.

MNK - WAR even, but the warrior need extremely good gear.

Monk is nice but Not the bandwagon DD. ((101 + 3 / 9) + 8)+ 101 =120 +52=172 damage with rigor. With the stat boost it will get more stronger. The boss weapon is just insane. Mnk is Ok but DRK and SAM still ahead, lets wait until the stats boost update, for check again.

Warrior until they allow us unlock Ukkos fury, will be a second Tier job under the shadow of DRK and SAM. If only Upheaval was a STR mod WS everything could change. Or how minimiun if they allow us Add a VIT - Attack path to DELVE gear =/