95 And Below RME Weapons

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Originally Posted by Return1

You want gear relative to the amount of work? You already have it. A 95Relic or 85-90 Empyrean weapon is literally less than or equal to half the work of 99'ing it.

Half the work, half the weapon. It's pretty fitting.

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The current gap doesn't make 85-90 empy half the 99 one and it didn't bother anyone so far, did it?
I don't get why a 99 r/m/e owner would mind about 85-95 weapons getting a boost.

Babekeke made an interesting proposition the devs should consider. 99 weapons would still get a bigger boost.
Not everyone has the money to build a 99 weapon, and getting a 85/90 empy is already an achievement for some of us.
Those are unique weapons, even unfinished, and will become totally useless without adjustment.
I'd rather like delve weapons and content to be nerfed, but the r/m/e boost is what's going to happen, and 85-95 should be included imo.

/begin rant

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Originally Posted by Sephiran

After reading the proposed adjustments and finding out that only the 99-iterations of RME's will be boosted to compete viably with the new Delve weapons, I must say I'm a little worried.

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Why???? The weapon isn't complete... so try completing the R/E/M 1st... then complain.

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Originally Posted by Sephiran

These weapons take time to get and not everyone can take them to 99 (especially in the case of empyrean weapons).

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"Not everyone can take them to 99..."... ... ... are we playing the same game... maybe your playing something completely different... like FFXIV that doesn't have Heavy Metal Plates or Riftcinders or something like that... cause the last time I looked, all of the items were available to anyone that paid the FFXI subscription and had the necessary expansion packs installed... so I'm not quite certain of your statement there... Unless you mean, "I'm just a little lazy and don't wanna work that hard....like those that did it... so make it easier for me..."???

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Originally Posted by Sephiran

So if one has a level 85 or 90 empyrean, it's just gonna be the end of the line for us?

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Hmm, not that I know of.. last I checked, there's a level 95 and level 99 and even a +1 version of the level 99 you can aspire too, assuming you wanted to work towards it... its possible you know... so, its definitely NOT the end of the line... unless YOU WANT IT TO BE!... there I said it.

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Originally Posted by Sephiran

I wield an Almace-90 and I love the thing.

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You're not taking it to level 95 or 99, so you can't love it that much... just sayin'.

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Originally Posted by Sephiran

Also, if weapons that are 95 and below are not to receive this boost, will there be plans to make it easier to upgrade them?

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Ahhhhh now we get to real point of this POST... in short... NO, STOP BEING LAZY... do the TRIALS that have been SETUP that A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE A 99 DID and are probably CONTINUING TO DO!!!! /sigh... These types of posts irritate the crap outta me... I actually hope a dev responds to this.. I'd love to get their reaction... oh wait, they did... they said ONLY THE LEVEL 99 WEAPONS ARE GETTING REVAMPED... a day late and a byte short.

/end rant.

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Originally Posted by Jerbob

Level 99 R/E/M holders: "I spent a significant amount of time creating a weapon. When I created it, I knew it would lie somewhere on a contiuum of weapon power - in my case, at the top. Delve weapons have made my weapon useless. I have therefore wasted my time. I would like this to be fixed."

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I like your post, but this statement I "believe" isn't entirely what may happen... Matsui said, "revamp" the definition of revamp is =

/rēˈvamp/
Verb
Give new and improved form, structure, or appearance to: "revamp her image".
Noun
An act of improving the form, structure, or appearance of something.

...and the word revamp is synonymous with alter, make over, modify, recast, redo, refashion, remake, remodel, change, revise, rework, vary... so in effect, short of introducing a patch/update that will change the stats of the level 99 R/M/Es... anything else requiring any work... keep in mind, we already did the work... SE should only be making the needed adjustments.

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Originally Posted by Return1

Your logic is horribly flawed. First off, 99REM holders will have to do some trial(s) to upgrade their 99s damage, they aren't just being handed a crapton of damage.

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I honestly think that's exactly what's going to happen... R/M/E holders have already finished the trials; the producer has already said they do not intend to increase the weapons like the method previously used (TotM), he repeatedly used the word "revamp"--a revamp is not your typical upgrade... revamp literally means to "re-do" or "do-over"...so yea, I truly believe the Devs intend to hand the R/M/E's a crapton of damage.

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Originally Posted by xiozen

I honestly think that's exactly what's going to happen... R/M/E holders have already finished the trials; the producer has already said they do not intend to increase the weapons like the method previously used (TotM), he repeatedly used the word "revamp"--a revamp is not your typical upgrade... revamp literally means to "re-do" or "do-over"...so yea, I truly believe the Devs intend to hand the R/M/E's a crapton of damage.

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They clearly said they won't bring a progressive upgrade for e/r/m, and gave ToM as reference.
I think we have to understand it will be the last upgrade they'll bring for e/r/m, and only because of e/r/m owners' anger.
It's sort of an excuse to players for that huge delve release mistake.

What i understood is that they do not intend to make e/r/m the top weapons forever.
This improvised boost is for them a way to get rid of players anger (and ragequitting); they want us to accept there will be better weapons and they want us to work on them.

This was their intention with delve release, but it was too sudden, too soon, and they didn't expect players reaction.
I think they'll still be going that way.

People will always be mad when a weapon that's meant to be worth so much and requires so much work is thrown away for anything.

Not only that but killing so many hours of content that will keep players giving them money? It's stupid from a business stand point, but I guess stupid decisions are why SE is losing so much money.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Really? I just explained, we had a long time period where RME99s were fine, it was only when they decided it was a good idea to double the DMG on weapons that a problem was created. You say they have to updated them every time a new level of gear is released, its not quite accurate, its when new levels of weapons are released, and only when they are so vastly superior to what we currently have, that it becomes a problem.

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I say that's one of the primary options if you accept vertical progression as the direction the game should be taking. Relics and Mythics stayed (mostly) on top of the game up until they raised the level cap. When the level cap was raised, we had vertical progression, but it was finite and easy to plan out. The devs probably assumed like we did that after level 99, horizontal progression would resume.

But to have vertical progression continue into the unforseen future, suddenly the burden of making sure that everything which requires a significant investment of time gets to keep pace with everything else becomes increasingly unbearable. Much like how the closer an object gets to reaching light speed, the more energy it takes to accelerate that object any further, FFXI will continue to pick up more and more items in the game like RMEs... things it simply cannot ditch and must continue adding updates specifically for them until it gets to a point where nothing new can be added.

That being said, this is only if you accept vertical growth as the new law of the land. If you completely deny it as the direction the game should be taking, perhaps you should be striking at the core of the matter instead of the side-effects. (And at this point, I mean "you" in a general sense, not just you specifically, Demon).

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Skirmish weapons had a few out matching Relics, not all, but some with +2 stones were doing the job, were people in an uproar then? Not really, some complained, but it was only a few here and there by compare, the weapons were ok.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ge-then-relics

849 replies. This doesn't really prove anything, just pointing out that there were plenty of complaints before delve entered the scene.

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You make it sound as though updating the RME99s is going to be a constant chore that happens with every other update, that could be true, if they make weapons jump in power again and again each update. If they do that, I doubt people will continue to play this game, it would be the stupidest choice they could make right now, so I doubt they would do that, instead they will improve gear, we will get new weapons with the other Delve areas as they are released as well as the other Fractures, WK Reives, and so on. The update is probably the last one or second to last one that RMEs will ever see, which is good, they should stay where they are after this next update, but only so long as SE does not choose to throw balance out the window and go crazy with numbers once again.

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They seem to intend to "go crazy with the numbers once again." For right now, they're focusing on patching some things up and making the content level increase a little more steady, but:

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Originally Posted by Camate

With the release of the end of April version update, we've implemented Delve and have completed the battle content that was planned for the launch of Seekers of Adoulin.

I feel that the flow of content that we planned where players would take on higher tiers of content (content level) by progressing in stages is not going as smoothly as we'd like.

Specifically, I would like to adjust the fact that it's difficult to do colonization reives and lair reives in small numbers, as well as the fact that it is difficult to start Skirmish.

For the time being, Delve (the boss battle) has been set as the highest content level.

With this current state, I feel priorities should be placed on implementing and adjusting content for low-man or soloing more than adding further higher tier content, and I would like to work hard while heading in this direction so that a larger amount of players can enjoy the game.

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For the time being. But when they move past the delve bosses and release higher content levels, complaints about RMEs getting outclassed will once again flare up and we'll go through this whole song and dance again and again and again.

lol...stop being lazy...just farm gil or get a good linkshell and finish your weapon. Why do you think you DESERVE to have SE reward your laziness?

^Replies like this seriously just make me was to throw up in anger. Selfish people.. honestly.

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Originally Posted by Wyrmnus

^Replies like this seriously just make me was to throw up in anger. Selfish people.. honestly.

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Pot calling the kettle black.

How so? How am I being Selfish? I'm merely just annoyed at that kind of response considering the topic. What's wrong with balancing out the R/M/E Stages up to 99 so that they make sense? Are Elitist players that afraid of being potentially knocked off their high horses?

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Originally Posted by Wyrmnus

How so? How am I being Selfish? I'm merely just annoyed at that kind of response considering the topic. What's wrong with balancing out the R/M/E Stages up to 99 so that they make sense? Are Elitist players that afraid of being potentially knocked off their high horses?

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Didn't think I actually had to explain it...

You're calling people with 99s selfish because they don't want previous versions updated.
You're being selfish because you don't want to put the same amount of effort as they did and still want to have a weapon close to their 99 weapon.

I still don't see the problem with proper balancing though.

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Originally Posted by Wyrmnus

I still don't see the problem with proper balancing though.

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How is a level 95 weapon being balanced for level 99 content 'proper'?

I didn't say make a 95 Weapon practically the same as the 99 stage. I said to make the base damage levels of the stages increased so that it's a... sensible looking increase per stage up to the final 99 stage. Oh... Nevermind.

While I think they do deserve an update, I also know why SE will not do it. So far as Matsui has said, we may not be going up by visible levels but we are progressing through pseudo-levels within level 99, as though it were 99.01 or 99.02, as someone else said these RME99 upgrades are probably somewhere around the level 120 region, meaning 99.21 and since it is that way they are in fact a level upgrade, rather than simply an upgrade from nothing. Even if they simply change the stats, the weapon in their eyes is more so a level 120 item than a level 99 item, so changing a level 90 item to fit is putting it at like level 110 level, or 105 level, far beyond where it is meant to be.

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Originally Posted by xiozen

NO, STOP BEING LAZY... do the TRIALS that have been SETUP that A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE A 99 DID and are probably CONTINUING TO DO!!!!

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I lol'd at the bolded. Not sure where your info is from, but there are not 'a lot of people that have a 99'. Would have to wait and check the most current Vana'diel census, but I'm almost certain that the number of people who have a 99 empyrean complete is at most a few percent of the population. Which brings me to my point...

Many people stopped building these weapons past 85/90 because they had still achieved an increased gain in their character's ability compared to alternatives. Players would start trials knowing that even if they stopped at 85/90, they would still achieve significant gains. That was kind of the point of magian trials and it's a lot how things work in real life. You want something, you work to get it. You want something nicer, you work a little harder.

IRL logic:
I work my 40 hrs a week and I can afford to make payments on my Camry. I'm happy with my current situation because it allows me to still have some free time to do things I like to do. I could totally burn myself out and work 12 hrs everyday to afford a Benz, but the fact that I am comfortable where I am does NOT make me lazy. Earn what you own.

That being said, I feel that the trials are fair. I have no beef with plates taking a larger investment for only a slight gain in comparison to previous trials. However, I don't see the harm in scaling up all of the weapons so that the original spirit and intent of magian trials, the idea of earning a weapon based on your on personal level of commitment, is still respected.

I admit, I got emotional in my response, so I concur that my use of "a lot of people" is somewhat over the top and perhaps unrealistic; but my point was made. As far as your quote:

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Originally Posted by Bstmode

However, I don't see the harm in scaling up all of the weapons so that the original spirit and intent of magian trials, the idea of earning a weapon based on your on personal level of commitment, is still respected.

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Since we both probably do not work for the development team, we won't understand their logic for not having already scaled certain weapons in the game prior to or even after release of the SoA content... perhaps this requires addressing... I don't know.

This still annoys me how short-sighted people can be, with their references to anyone who has not finished their r/m/e to 99 must be lazy.

For some people, RL>FFXI.

Not to mention, some people actually made 10 empys, but only took a couple of them to 99. Are they lazy??? Really!?!?

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Originally Posted by xiozen

I admit, I got emotional in my response, so I concur that my use of "a lot of people" is somewhat over the top and perhaps unrealistic; but my point was made.

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To put it in perspective for you... Based on the 11th vana'diel census:

There were a total of just over 65k empyrean weapons across all servers that were level 85 or higher(excluding instrument and shield). Out of those 65,000+ empyreans, a mere 550 of them were unlocked to level 99. Less than 1 out of every 100 people who unlocked an empyrean weaponskill bothered to take their weapon to what you called 'completion' at level 99.

You basically said that more than 99% of the population of FFXI is lazy because they couldn't be bothered to 'complete' their weapons. Now you're saying that perhaps that is unrealistic?

Perhaps you are the winner of the "Understatement of the Century" award...

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Originally Posted by Bstmode

To put it in perspective for you... Based on the 11th vana'diel census:

There were a total of just over 65k empyrean weapons across all servers that were level 85 or higher(excluding instrument and shield). Out of those 65,000+ empyreans, a mere 550 of them were unlocked to level 99. Less than 1 out of every 100 people who unlocked an empyrean weaponskill bothered to take their weapon to what you called 'completion' at level 99.

You basically said that more than 99% of the population of FFXI is lazy because they couldn't be bothered to 'complete' their weapons. Now you're saying that perhaps that is unrealistic?

Perhaps you are the winner of the "Understatement of the Century" award...

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My Almace and Armageddon are at 85, my Apocalypse is at 95 because I'm lazy. I have the means to obtain the items required to make them 99. Might take a while for the Emps but I can do it. Heck the 5 Umbral Marrows to 99 my Apocalypse cost 50-75 million, or in context of an event I'm currently spamming on a semi regular basis that's 167~250 Airlixir +1s being sold or 417,500-625,000 or 83-125 fracture runs averaging 5k. That doesn't even account for farming Volatile Matamata which usually ends up giving me 3 +1s and 1,500 more plasm. By not rigorously focusing on selling Airlixir +1s to fund my Apocalypse 95 to 99 I'm being lazy, at least I'm willing to admit it.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

This still annoys me how short-sighted people can be, with their references to anyone who has not finished their r/m/e to 99 must be lazy.

For some people, RL>FFXI.

Not to mention, some people actually made 10 empys, but only took a couple of them to 99. Are they lazy??? Really!?!?

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Then your weapon that took a weekend to make is being replace by a weapon takes a weekend to make. I don't really see the problem with this.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

vertical progression

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You can have vertical progression without changing weapons (not that i'm advocating that. Should just continue magian trials with bayld items/ghastly stones/airlixirs)

You can not upgrade 85 90 95 weapons because of the time it would take to rewrite all the stats for all weapons and all trials. And why would they rebalance weapons when a quest has not even been done? I rather the developers spend the time on new events or things.

Abyessa has been out for three years. If you not even made your empy to 90 in three years your sad. For most weapons it takes one weekend to two weeks. As for 95 and 99 trial. Do plazma farming, craft, or whatever.

I do have four REM's.

99 APOC, 99 empy staff, 95 rag and 85 almace. I am holding off on almace because if WoE gets unlock, I rather do the weapon skill with different sword as its main purpose is blu skill chains. Rag, I could make it, to 99 but want to wait and see as it may have no purpose to use at 99 even upgraded.

99 apoc lets me do many things. 99 empy staff if unlock weapon skill lets me nuke all day long. Even if not unlocked I can nuke on the staff and never run out of MP. So both these weapons make me happy.

Instead of them upgrading REM weapons 85-95. Please spend the time for MoT weapons. I would love those weapons to get a boost.

I recently unsubbed from FFXI myself because of the issues with R/M/E weapons, now of course I'm not posting for moral support or anything like that.. that would be stupid. I just thought I'd give my two gil: The problem with the sub 99 versions of the empy weapons not receiving a buff isn't really an issue for me, I was working on 99 anyway... what was an issue was the total destruction of the VWNM scene overnight once seekers came out, since nothing from VW is really relevant anymore, why would people spam it and provide the market with much needed HMP and riftdross? It's currently all but impossible to complete an empy weapons magian trials, at least on the server I played since there are no new items coming into the market and since VW isn't small group friendly, there's no real way around these issues currently.

For me, this rendered the game unplayable by cutting me off from any possibility of completing my long term goals. If anything I'd say making sure non-seekers content stays populated needs some attention, at least in cases were it's impossible to solo or small group those events (as obviously, things like dynamis can be done without needing outside help from other players).

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Originally Posted by Raksha

Then your weapon that took a weekend to make is being replace by a weapon takes a weekend to make. I don't really see the problem with this.

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Weekends must be longer where you are than where I am. 21 NMs all with a minimum respawn of 1 hour is 21 hours if you got really lucky and every NM repopped right on the 1 hour mark, and after visiting jeuno, the next NM was already up. In reality, there's always 1 NM that decides to be a b*tch and wait out 8 hours to respawn, and the rest will be an average of ~2 hours.

And some of us like to catch up on sleep over the weekends too, and you can only get lucky enough to get others to do 1 trial for you whilst you sleep.

And then there's the VNMs, minimum of 2 hours per NM, assuming that you either have friends willing to drop everything and go help you, or you're dual-boxing and the job you are on is able to DB the VNMs you need. Some are easily soloable on the right jobs, but others can be nasty. If your friends aren't available to help, or you can DB it, then you have to shout for assistance... that could be your whole weekend taken up right there.

And at last you're onto the 175 abyssea NMs, all that require KIs to pop, and if your weapon starts out in tahrongi (Chloris or Glavoid) then you could spend a full day in that 1 zone.

As for "replacing it with another weapon that took you a weekend to make", this is only true under 1 of 2 conditions:

1) You beat the required delve NMs before the depop nerf.

2) You have a decent WHM BRD COR or SCH levelled.

Otherwise, noone's inviting you to join their delve fights, and it doesn't matter how quickly you can get the plasm if you don't have the KI.

I agree with the above. If you were lucky enough to get in on it early then you could do Delve with your now gimp 'weekend weapon'. If not then you've gotta slink in on a job is required more for their utility than what they're wearing.

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Originally Posted by Bstmode

I agree with the above. If you were lucky enough to get in on it early then you could do Delve with your now gimp 'weekend weapon'. If not then you've gotta slink in on a job is required more for their utility than what they're wearing.

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Best one to "sink in" with is called Leader, best part about that job is it takes a bit of research as well as the ability to make sure people follow through with instructions and that's all it takes to make it pimp.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Best one to "sink in" with is called Leader, best part about that job is it takes a bit of research as well as the ability to make sure people follow through with instructions and that's all it takes to make it pimp.

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I'll save you the trip to Merriam-Webster...

Slink - 1: to go or move stealthily or furtively (as in fear or shame)

Basically you sneak into a group on a 'safe' job knowing that if you wanted to go on a job you enjoy, you'd probably be denied because you aren't as equipped as they feel you should be. Sure you can make your own group, but the chances of people sticking around after finding out that you aren't already Delve equipped are about the same as you getting into a premade under the same circumstances.

Not saying that it's impossible, but it's much less likely and enough of an annoyance to turn people off.

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Originally Posted by Bstmode

I'll save you the trip to Merriam-Webster...

Slink - 1: to go or move stealthily or furtively (as in fear or shame)

Basically you sneak into a group on a 'safe' job knowing that if you wanted to go on a job you enjoy, you'd probably be denied because you aren't as equipped as they feel you should be. Sure you can make your own group, but the chances of people sticking around after finding out that you aren't already Delve equipped are about the same as you getting into a premade under the same circumstances.

Not saying that it's impossible, but it's much less likely and enough of an annoyance to turn people off.

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Sorry when I used "sink in" it was meant to be a play on your use of "slink in", essentially hoping it will sink in people's head that if they actually took up the leader role they'd get away with so much when talking about gear/job expectations instead of trying to sneak in.

The logical thing to do is determine whether a 99 RME is the starting point for new content (as in, starter content for Adoulin assumes your DPS have a 99RME). If the answer is yes, then you need to make it less ardorous to get there, either by easing a bit on the trials or introduce something with which to leapfrog the need for RME altogether (currently there is none).

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The logical thing to do is determine whether a 99 RME is the starting point for new content (as in, starter content for Adoulin assumes your DPS have a 99RME). If the answer is yes, then you need to make it less ardorous to get there, either by easing a bit on the trials or introduce something with which to leapfrog the need for RME altogether (currently there is none).

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With the exception of Delve Fracture Bosses I have yet to do (haven't done the bosses myself though) anything in SoA that requires R/E/M for any of the DDs. Just like before SoA they are helpful but not required.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Sorry when I used "sink in" it was meant to be a play on your use of "slink in", essentially hoping it will sink in people's head that if they actually took up the leader role they'd get away with so much when talking about gear/job expectations instead of trying to sneak in.

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Way to slink past the point. When people have difficulty even being invited to participate in an event unless already geared by that event, something is wrong. It's like being asked to show ID when you're going to obtain a driver's license.

Let the irony "sink in"...

We're talking about weapons that are obtained through magian trials which are based completely on progression. You start at point A and progress through other points until you reach your destination. No skipping over or slinking through content. You start and progress until you're done.

In Delve on the other hand, you're expected to already be at your destination before you are eligible to make the trip. Now I understand that this barrier is created by the community, but SE could easily address the issue. Creating your own group doesn't remove the expectation from players that you should be overgeared for the content.

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Originally Posted by Bstmode

Creating your own group doesn't remove the expectation from players that you should be overgeared for the content.

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Do you honestly think someone who's elitist about gear that still needs KIs/plasm and hasn't been brought into a group at this point can still be a chooser over a beggar?

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Do you honestly think someone who's elitist about gear that still needs KIs/plasm and hasn't been brought into a group at this point can still be a chooser over a beggar?

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No, I believe all the elitists were granted what they needed before they even set foot in Delve... /facepalm

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Do you honestly think someone who's elitist about gear that still needs KIs/plasm and hasn't been brought into a group at this point can still be a chooser over a beggar?

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I think this is beyond the point. If I went into a Delve NM ally and realised the leader was on SAM and using level 90 Empy for example, I'd probably only give him 5 mins to finish the alliance, and I'd certainly be keeping an eye out for another ally forming.

This is not because I'm 'elitist', far from it, but the NMs are difficult, pure and simple. It's a waste of everyone's time to go with a group that can't beat the NM.

@Duelle: Many things in SoA can be done without even having 99 r/m/e. Reives for certain, and plasm farming. Wildskeeper Reives and Skirmish, I'm not too sure about as I haven't bothered with them myself yet. Delve NMs however are tiered above r/m/e 99.

Edit: also, I think Duelle might have it right when he said 'ease up on the trials'. When they first announced 1500 HMP, many of us thought that it would eventually be reduced. Now seems like the ideal time, especially since they will not be increasing the power of non-99 r/m/e, no matter what anyone would like.

I don't know if this has been said, but since it is apparent that 75-95 R/M/E are going to be basically old content, and the newer weapons are relatively "easy" to get, they might want to lower the trial redundancy on said weapons. If they aren't top tier unless you grind it for an upwards of 4-6 months for the majority of players, and remember this is just to be able to contribute to combat these days. That's insane and poor game design. I see no reason why the trials below the 99 have to be so tedious anymore.

That would be one major way of fixing the problem. Delve weapons might be even outclassed in another update in the near future, making this R/M/E discussion flare up with even more whining. Might as well make the trials easier at this point for everyone since it's obvious they won't be as relevant anymore. This would really remove the bottleneck for the shield/harp trials as well, as ever since the cruor conversion nerf, people have just been selling these pops for money, making it a pain just to even attempt this consistently.

Just my two cents.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

I think this is beyond the point. If I went into a Delve NM ally and realised the leader was on SAM and using level 90 Empy for example, I'd probably only give him 5 mins to finish the alliance, and I'd certainly be keeping an eye out for another ally forming.

This is not because I'm 'elitist', far from it, but the NMs are difficult, pure and simple. It's a waste of everyone's time to go with a group that can't beat the NM.

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If you think going with a Leader who has Masa 90 SAM and can't fill an alliance in 5 minutes to an event that doesn't require epic gear to beat I don't know how you think that's not elitist. Considering at this point the gimmicks are known and none of those gimmicks require X gear beyond what I'd consider decent/good gear (AF/Relic/Emp armor, TP set, WS set, anything else is a bonus)

Grasshopper - Don't WS and your chances of losing are almost 0 with decent alliance of DDs and healers
Moth - Spam Debuffs until 20~ Exuviation are used at that point stop using debuffs and kill it,
Fish - DDs come /NIN or /SAM with 3rd Eye and zerg it down. Silencing it is a bonus to help keep shadows from getting wiped by AoE spells.
Oboron - Bring a couple of WAR to use Mighty Strikes (not needed but makes it much faster) to it's face and stun Mayhem Lantern and it goes down quick.
Matmata - Bring a nuker and a tank (RDM/WAR can do both) and nuke it at least once for more than 0 damage between TP moves. After the 7th have the DD go crazy. If it lives repeat (might require letting the DDs die and reraise but 5 minute weakness will be gone before the next window opens).
Peiste - Keep it blind and it's evasion goes down as well as preventing Grim Glower and Oppressive Glare. Just a matter of dealing damage at that point.

That's strategies to get all 6 of the outside KIs. Note none of these strategies require Delve weapons or R/E/M 99s let alone updated R/E/M 75-95s.

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Originally Posted by Radd

I don't know if this has been said, but since it is apparent that 75-95 R/M/E are going to be basically old content, and the newer weapons are relatively "easy" to get, they might want to lower the trial redundancy on said weapons. If they aren't top tier unless you grind it for an upwards of 4-6 months for the majority of players, and remember this is just to be able to contribute to combat these days. That's insane and poor game design. I see no reason why the trials below the 99 have to be so tedious anymore.

That would be one major way of fixing the problem. Delve weapons might be even outclassed in another update in the near future, making this R/M/E discussion flare up with even more whining. Might as well make the trials easier at this point for everyone since it's obvious they won't be as relevant anymore. This would really remove the bottleneck for the shield/harp trials as well, as ever since the cruor conversion nerf, people have just been selling these pops for money, making it a pain just to even attempt this consistently.

Just my two cents.

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The R/M/E topic will probably never end, because SE is forced to make those weapons relevant. Note that I say 'forced' because I believe it was due to the players' feedback to to point where SE had to rethink R/E/M post-expansion, and rightfully so because of the amount of effort players had made to obtain these weapons. The same thing happened when Abyssea was released with Empys; the R/M owners had said their piece.

SE was clear about the path they want to follow with Adoulin content, and with the reveal of 'content levels', this may open up the possibility of even more powerful gear in the future. Right now Delve weapons are top tier, but what about if the in future SE decides to release new weapons? Can they simply release them with a higher content level, or will they again be forced to think about R/M/E/[D] owners and make the tough decision to either lower their new content to match (thus making it another 'path'), or to upgrade old content to match the new content?

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

also, I think Duelle might have it right when he said 'ease up on the trials'. When they first announced 1500 HMP, many of us thought that it would eventually be reduced. Now seems like the ideal time, especially since they will not be increasing the power of non-99 r/m/e, no matter what anyone would like.

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I look at it more from intended time investment and expected completion. Progression in older/obsolete content does not remain the same once you start using content "tiers". Normally things play out automatically because the older content is lower level, so the player's relatively greater power makes that content quicker to clear (ex: a lv75 dungeon being cleared with little effort and risk by lv80 players).

XI rushed to 99 and had a bunch of content tossed in. As such the players do not naturally get stronger than the older content. Add to this the time spent expectancy and you have a possible issue.

For argument's sake, if an empyrean was intended to take you 4 months to complete and you had content that made that empyrean useless stat-wise, you'd normally be able to outpower the content to clear it more efficiently than when it was "current", some adjustment would be made to acquire it faster or more leisurely, or relegate it to a status item where the stats and procs are irrelevant stat-wise but the weapon looks damn cool.

Instead of going that route, SE seems to expect you to hold off on Adoulin content for the 4 months it would take you to make that empyrean (not counting gearing through abyssea and voidwatch) without what I would consider reasonable means for catching up. And that is honestly my biggest beef with the direction the devs are taking.

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Originally Posted by Jerbob

In my opinion, the argument can be summed up with two statements and their outcomes.

Level 99 R/E/M holders: "I spent a significant amount of time creating a weapon. When I created it, I knew it would lie somewhere on a contiuum of weapon power - in my case, at the top. Delve weapons have made my weapon useless. I have therefore wasted my time. I would like this to be fixed."

Result: lv. 99 R/E/M proposed upgrades, which will require me to complete an as-of-yet unspecified task to restore my weapon to usefulness.

Lower level R/E/M holders: "I spent a significant amount of time creating a weapon. When I created it, I knew it would lie somewhere on a contiuum of weapon power - in my case, close to (but not at) the top. Delve weapons have made my weapon useless. I have therefore wasted my time. I would like this to be fixed."

Result: I must make a very significant expenditure of time and money before completing the same as-of-yet unspecified task to create a more powerful weapon. There is no option to restore my weapon to its old level of usefulness, which was my original requirement.

The compaints made by level 99 R/E/M holders can just as legitimately be made by those that hold lower tier weapons. No-one wants to lose the work they put into their weapons, which in all cases is significant - just to varying degrees. I think denying <lv99 weapon users the ability to restore their weapons to their original level of usefulness is simply unjustifiable. They made their <lv99 weapon knowing what they would get - something good, but not exceptional. SE has taken that away from them, and they have a right to want their weapon restored.

Weapon users with <lv99 weapons wouldn't get anything "free" from this adjustment - at least not anything more than lv99 weapon users will. They will still end up with an inferior weapon. However, they will end up with a weapon that is "as inferior" as they originally intended - which is the only reasonable outcome.

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I disagree, the way you say it sounds like lv 85~95 weapons are different from lv 99, but in fact they're not.

The one who made lv 85~95 weapons already know lv 85~95 isn't the end. Even if you make lv 85~90 in Abyssea era, you should already guessed that one day your lv 85 90 weapon would get a new trial.

Further more, killing lv 99 R/E/M means this game no longer has R/E/M. Which is one of the main reason why everyone is against this idea. If delve 30k weapon(which takes 1~2 days to get if you play more than avg player) is better than 99 R/E/M, then there's no reason to make them, thus one of FFXI's coolest concept is dead.

But keeping 85~95 as it is, and boost lv 99 R/E/M means R/E/M are still use-able. The legendary weapon concept still exist.

Players rant about lv 99 R/E/M isn't just about "I do this for nothing, boost it", but also because the emotional attachment, and I think emotional attachment should be lv 99 only. By your logic, if a player lv NIN during abyssea because NIN was useful, shouldn't he ask SE to boost NIN or give every NM NIN proc too, just because he leveled NIN for nothing after Abyssea/VW era ended?