What will become of Red Mage v1.0?

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The notion that we matter less than the THFs, DNCs, NINs and BSTs that aren't getting invited to events (that should be making threads stating their issues instead of standing back or heckle the melee camp) is just as, if not more, absurd.

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How the heck did you get the notion RDM matters less? I read that as a RDM shouldn't out DD THF, DNC, NIN, or BST. You might want to reread that because I honestly can't see how you're getting that they should matter less.

A RDM can melee, at a decent rate is it anything to brag about? Not really but how can you expect that considering everything a RDM can already do at decent levels (you know "jack of all jobs"). It shouldn't be able to do melee damage above those jobs let alone on par.

That said even if it could out damage those jobs you still wouldn't be getting invites from the player base that thinks RDM is useless.

Edit: The only way a RDM will become desirable to the community that has deemed it useless is something along the lines of:

Double the potency of enfeebles from RDM (Maybe even triple it).
Demi. 25-50% HP
Stop.
Give it melee damage on par with SAM/DRK/MNK/WAR.

Outside of something that extreme the community that has outcast it won't see value in it. If you don't see how any of those combined with everything else a RDM can do isn't broken or over powered then you're crazy.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

I read that as a RDM shouldn't out DD THF, DNC, NIN, or BST.

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You're right, and I apologize. I misread it. My reply should have been "what's absurd is that you somehow got the idea that we are asking to out-damage BST, THF, NIN and DNC".

My point on them having to post about their jobs' issues stands.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

You're right, and I apologize. I misread it. My reply should have been "what's absurd is that you somehow got the idea that we are asking to out-damage BST, THF, NIN and DNC".

My point on them having to post about their jobs' issues stands.

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BST and NIN especially, but most of the 1handers are suffering on "competent" damage. If you want to do such damage, you're asking for more than them.

Since they should do more damage than you, they're still preferable in a dd spot to your rdm. I'm not trying to argue, but that's the facts. You can't exactly be swapping to staves while you're trying to tp, and too many rdm's might enfeeble at he beginning but NUMBERS would keep them from refreshing enfeebles, or tossing hastes, or refreshing anyone.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The question should be "why not?".

If you notice, everything mentioned so far has been melee-related. I doubt any of us would ask for a return of ye olde "kite+DoT+Nuke" soloing, which encompassed all RDM soloing pre-Abyssea. I personally want the sword to be more useful and RDM to be kept in mind and treated as a melee mage. Right now the job is an afterthought, and has been treated as such since the Abyssea era.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

You're right, and I apologize. I misread it. My reply should have been "what's absurd is that you somehow got the idea that we are asking to out-damage BST, THF, NIN and DNC".

My point on them having to post about their jobs' issues stands.

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Here's my core question: Why should your desire to have rdm's melee buffed take precedence over all the other problems with this game? Why should the devs give attention to rdm's ability to melee when the ability of 1h jobs is lacking across the board? Why should they focus on rdm melee when pet jobs are fundamentally broken and in desperate need of repair, and have been since before abyssea? Why should rdm's ability to melee take priority over the fact that the one thing rdm is great at is still so lacking?

I'm so tired of hearing people say "rdm is the jack of all trades, master of none." because it absolutely is not, and as far as FFXI is concerned, has never been. Rdm is a hybrid job, with its focus being enfeebling. Rdm is not the only hybrid job. Nin is a hybrid job. Blu is a hybrid job. Cor is a hybrid job. Pup is a hybrid job. Dnc is a hybrid job. Sch is a hybrid job. In FFXI, there is no such thing as a Jack of all trades. None of the hybrid jobs can fill every party role, and there's no reason rdm should be excluded from that.

Nin was supposed to be a cross between rng and blm, that the players turned into a bizarre thf-war blend through shadow tanking.

Blu can melee well, and has a wide range of unique damage in the form of physical magic. In the right circumstances, it can also play a decent healer, and has some support abilities, both in the form of buffs and debuffs.

Cor is predominantly a buffer, but has decent ranged damage potential, and even has some magical damage abilities.

Pup has really strong melee that's only really held back by the puppet, and it can trade some of its melee strength for the ability to support the party through healing, or to supply magical and physical damage simultaneously. (Note: Drk is not this. There's a pretty big difference between a godly Gsword and lolT3nukeswithhorriblenukinggearselection, and decent h2h and MABheavy T5 nukes).

Dnc can both melee on par with a ninja or a thf, and support the party through limited buffs, debuffs, and powerful, if limited, healing.

Sch can bounce between playing the roles of a healer, and a magic damage dealer, as well as limited buffing ability.

Rdm can heal and nuke, and is the king of enfeebling (when it matters), and has limited meleeing ability, as well as possessing some ability to tank.

Think of party roles (from SE's job-design perspective) like this:
Melee DD (Primary: War, Mnk, Sam, Drk, Drg)
Ranged DD (Primary: Rng)
Magical DD (Primary: Blm)
Tank (Primary: Pld)
Healer (Primary: Whm)
Offensive Support (Debuffs) (Primary: Rdm)
Defensive Support (Buffs) (Primary: Brd)
Utility (Primary: Thf)

The non-hybrid jobs all have one focus, one secondary focus, and most have a tertiary focus too (ex: Whm has healing, then buffing, then debuffing; War has Melee DD, and Tanking; Thf is supposed to be Utility focused with melee DD as its secondary, but it's poorly designed and implemented.). They might be able to fill other roles in a pinch, if they live and breathe the boyscout motto ("Always be prepared", because I'm sure that there has to be someone here that doesn't know it.), but that doesn't happen often, if ever. The hybrid jobs, on the other hand, trade their ability to be the best at any one thing for their ability to multiple roles effectively. The more roles a job can do well, the less effective they are at all their roles. That's how SE designs this shit, and it makes sense from a logical stand point, so they've stuck to it, despite it failing when it comes to actually putting it to work.

So, in other words, if you want to be better at meleeing, you'll have to become worse at healing, nuking, and enfeebling, otherwise the job will be "unbalanced". This is what SE will decide, and then they'll waste time debating how to rebalance it, when they could instead focus on other, more important shit.

It's not that I'm against rdm melee. It's that I don't think that, with so many other far more relevant areas of the game desperately needing attention, the devs should waste their goddamn time pandering to the complaints of one small group of rdms who want to be a little better at using swords.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

BST and NIN especially, but most of the 1handers are suffering on "competent" damage. If you want to do such damage, you're asking for more than them.

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As I said, if NIN and BST have issues they should be making posts about it to discuss the issues. THF also has issues that I wish were dealt with and fixed by the devs.

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Originally Posted by Theytak

Here's my core question: Why should your desire to have rdm's melee buffed take precedence over all the other problems with this game?

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Since the rest of your post was built on this poorly-developed observation, all I'll say is that we never said anything about our desired melee adjustments taking precedence over every other issue in FFXI. Neither the OP, Demon, or myself presented it as such.

I saw your post about issues with PUP and wholeheartedly support it. I also support posts and criticisms made on THF, SMN, and NIN, as I understand those jobs also have problems of their own. Kindly get off the melee camp's case about wanting their issues addressed and fixed.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

As I said, if NIN and BST have issues they should be making posts about it to discuss the issues. THF also has issues that I wish were dealt with and fixed by the devs.
Since the rest of your post was built on this poorly-developed observation, all I'll say is that we never said anything about our desired melee adjustments taking precedence over every other issue in FFXI. Neither the OP, Demon, or myself presented it as such.

I saw your post about issues with PUP and wholeheartedly support it. Kindly get off the melee camp's case about wanting their issues addressed and fixed.

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You completely missed my point. By taking this topic and discussing it here, in the general forum, it's clear that you are trying to bring rdm melee to the dev's immediate attention, whether you will admit it, or even realize that implication, or not. If you wanna discuss rdm melee and what it needs, go do it in the rdm forum, with the other rdms, where it the other, more important issues don't have to directly compete with it for attention.

That's part of the problem with the official forums, though.

Honestly, you guys just need to accept that the time that you'll be able to have a rdm melee thread brought to the devs attention without numerous, vocal, well constructed arguments against it is a long, long, long way off in the future.

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Originally Posted by Theytak

So, in other words, if you want to be better at meleeing, you'll have to become worse at healing, nuking, and enfeebling, otherwise the job will be "unbalanced". This is what SE will decide, and then they'll waste time debating how to rebalance it, when they could instead focus on other, more important shit.

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Flawed way to look at it I think. Look at most games which allow you to create a character based on stats. Many games start you with, say, 100 points, then as you raise a stat higher the amount of points to raise it get higher, so at first you can add 1 STR for 1 point, then another for 1 point, then another for 2 points, and so on. When you look at balance, that makes sense, you can focus in one thing but your other stats will be lacking a ton. In RDM's case, we round it out by putting many points in many things, but we cap nothing, its like we have 60~70% of our points in everything, while we have nothing above that, and most jobs are at something like 90~100% in most of their important stats.

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It's not that I'm against rdm melee. It's that I don't think that, with so many other far more relevant areas of the game desperately needing attention, the devs should waste their goddamn time pandering to the complaints of one small group of rdms who want to be a little better at using swords.

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You are not against it you say, but at the same time you make it sound as though entertaining the idea and having SE put us on some light DD gear would be a waste of time. To me, that seems contradictory in itself because you are against the idea of them putting time into it, not necessarily the idea of RDM's meleeing but rather the act of them improving it if it takes away from your updates you personally want. That would be like me saying I am not against PUP being a great job, I am simply against SE putting time into fixing the job in a way it would be of use.

It would be a waste of time

RDM's best place is with the healers and blm's.

There are numerous more important issues, chief among them a list of dd that should be buffed before se glances at what rdm can do with a sword, and other sword melee jobs. There are also plenty of things an rdm can melee, solo, but rdm is too good at every other aspect of the game, it doesn't have to be everything.

I wanted pld's to do more damage. Made two threads, between two forums, people disagreed, I let it go (I wanted a stance thing, like sam or nin, technically, have.).

I played pld before aby, and after I built aegis, I played it in aby where it was approrpriate. After I built ochain, I played it more. I know the love of a job and the hope it will be better, but I also know that pld is what it is and adoulin is fixing some gross negligence with the direction of the game. I don't even care that pld's weren't tanking but it's an abomination that nobody but the last person to hit the mob was tanking, more or less.

What about thf? SE has officially said that thf should tp in TH gear when TH is the reason thf is there. That's a pretty powerful kick in the you-know-where.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

It would be a waste of time

RDM's best place is with the healers and blm's.

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Then the job should be deleted in its entirety because we already have a job which does what you are suggesting, its called Scholar. We are not a blend of simply WHM and BLM, that is what SCH is, just like DRK is a blend of WAR and BLM while PLD is a WAR and WHM, we are a blend of all 3, a WAR, a WHM, and a BLM. That is the reason we have a large number of combat skills, we can do many things, as we are meant to, we are supposed to do everything, yes, that is our job, but we are supposed to do it in a way that puts us in a position of a hybrid, one where front line combat is possible while supportive abilities are of use as well. Look at BLU, it is how a hybrid should be, a job who can support and fight on the front lines at the same time, people recognize that it can, and does, and so it is invited for such a duty, does anyone invite RDM for that same reason? No, thats why its a fundamental flaw of our job.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Flawed way to look at it I think. Look at most games which allow you to create a character based on stats. Many games start you with, say, 100 points, then as you raise a stat higher the amount of points to raise it get higher, so at first you can add 1 STR for 1 point, then another for 1 point, then another for 2 points, and so on. When you look at balance, that makes sense, you can focus in one thing but your other stats will be lacking a ton. In RDM's case, we round it out by putting many points in many things, but we cap nothing, its like we have 60~70% of our points in everything, while we have nothing above that, and most jobs are at something like 90~100% in most of their important stats.

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I didn't say it wasn't flawed, or that I agree with it, but based on 8 years of play, and 8 years of dealing with SE, it's pretty clear, in my opinion, that that's how the devs think.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

You are not against it you say, but at the same time you make it sound as though entertaining the idea and having SE put us on some light DD gear would be a waste of time. To me, that seems contradictory in itself because you are against the idea of them putting time into it, not necessarily the idea of RDM's meleeing but rather the act of them improving it if it takes away from your updates you personally want. That would be like me saying I am not against PUP being a great job, I am simply against SE putting time into fixing the job in a way it would be of use.

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I'm not against SE doing whatever with rdm melee. I am against SE doing whatever with rdm melee right now, when their time would be better spent working on other, far more content-relevant issues and/or the major worries and problems that a significantly larger portion of the player base has to deal with than just the small crowd of rdms who want to be better with swords even though no one will ever invite them to melee no matter how good SE makes them.

Blu, ok.

- It has a fair heal that probably won't cast as fast as anyone but a blm, pld, or smn's cure IV, and probably not that fast (well, faster than a pld, probably)..
- It has supporting spells (Winds of Promy is <3, Diamondhide), but most of its spells are self cast only. You can bet that if a blu could directly, repeatedly, cast animating wall or magic barrier on others, blus would be on the mage line. Blu also, of course, has to equip most of its spells, and to do damage (not even great damage, especially as more and more people get weapons), it has to equip spells it won't even use to further its dd potential.

Blu's have saved key lives, and thus saved the alliance, but noone brings blu as a healer, largely because it can't natively heal outside of it's group.

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Originally Posted by Theytak

I'm not against SE doing whatever with rdm melee. I am against SE doing whatever with rdm melee right now, when their time would be better spent working on other, far more content-relevant issues and/or the major worries and problems that a significantly larger portion of the player base has to deal with than just the small crowd of rdms who want to be better with swords even though no one will ever invite them to melee no matter how good SE makes them.

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The time it would take them to improve RDM would be the same amount of time it took them to screw up and fix Nares gear when BLU got put on it after Adoulin came out. Put RDM on the VW and NNI Light DD gear sets as well as Abyssea's Pink and Adoulin's Thurandaut and we will be much better off, an update which I think could be done in no time.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

but noone brings blu as a healer

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No, they haven't, what have they brought it as ladies and gents? A hybrid! Oh my god, its almost as if I said that was what they were to begin with, and as though I said that was what RDM was and should be more like!?

They don't bring it as hybrid, they bring as a DD.

They don't care that it can heal, they don't care that it can diamondhide, they don't care that it can hastega.

Let me put taht another way, saying rdm should melee better because blu is a hybrid too is like saying rdm should melee better because nin is a hybrid. People bring these jobs for one purpose, and when they can't bring them for that purpose, they...don't bring them.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

The time it would take them to improve RDM would be the same amount of time it took them to screw up and fix Nares gear when BLU got put on it after Adoulin came out. Put RDM on the VW and NNI Light DD gear sets as well as Abyssea's Pink and Adoulin's Thurandaut and we will be much better off, an update which I think could be done in no time.

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Wait how exactly would that make you more appealing to those parties that don't feel RDM has a purpose? That's the point of this thread right?

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

They don't bring it as hybrid, they bring as a DD.

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On Delve stuff the only time I've seen a BLU wanted, was for ES Absolute Terror, SA Spells (before the depsawn timer), or for Self Skillchains. So it isn't even wanted as "DD" in the sense of raw damage.

I'm done arguing with people, if you can not comprehend the idea of a hybrid job then it is not my job nor obligation to teach you the idea of it, simply put, if you want a DD, you get a WAR, DRK, MNK, SAM, or something in that line. If you want a support you get a BRD, COR, WHM, SCH, or something in that line, the jobs with more than just those abilities are either tanks, pet jobs, or some sort of hybrid, most if not all hybrids get gear which flushes out both sides of their abilities enough to be of use, RDM does not truly get good melee gear which along with its general lack in other melee departments restrict it to a back line job which has already been filled by many other jobs, as such, it needs a boost in this one field to fulfill its job requirements.

That's where you're just not getting it.

1handers, by and large, don't get gear to "flush out" both sides for fast kills. I don't mean zerging, I simply mean killing as fast as possible. I don't know how Phoenix handles things but I was never in a VW with more than 1 pup, dnc, bst, thf, pld, rdm. It was not impossible to see 2 nin.

- DNC can dd, provide a unique set of party buffs, and heal in a clutch for a short duration (unless Tranced). Because of this, for whatever reason, dnc is kept far inferior to 2hr's.
- BST has the protection and assistance of their pets. This gives them more survivability than most melee. Because of this, for whatever reason, bst is kept far inferior to 2hr's.
- NIN has excellent survivability, accomodates many subs, excellent tank, because of this, nin is kept far inferior to 2hr's.
- PLD, with the proper shield for the situation, has nearly unmatchable survivability, and is *the* tank--because of this, pld is kept far inferior to 2hr's.
- BLU's spells don't rise with weapon damage, thus their spells remain sort of stagnant, because of this, BLU is kept far inferior to 2hr's..
THF has Treasure Hunter, if you want a drop, you sacrifice a spot to a thf, because of this--even though it isn't so applicable to many aspects of the game anymore--thf is kept far inferior to 2hr's.

And these are each jobs with two aspects, and really bst is just a DD that sucks at anything hard. Your pet goes down quickly if you're not willing to dump food after food into him and that's so he can miss, while you miss because, not only are bst's skills behind war, for instance, bst's offensive abilities are none, they can't sub a DD sub because they need to be dual wielding, and the gear options aren't there to make pets hit these mobs, and that's before adoulin.

If I could remember them, I could count the number of times, on all my fingers that we had a bst or pup in the alliance. RDM was very rare and aside from pil, or something with adds, pld was a last-resort option as well.

The only one hander you'd see more than one of is blue and that's because of poor design.

Finally, 1hr's are looking at the weapon options and some of them need to offhand their pre-adoulin weapon. Some have the option of dual-wielding a weapon of a different type, but your ws's don't get the extra hit in that case--because of this, 1hr's are...

And

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it needs a boost in this one field to fulfill its job requirements.

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Nobody is requiring rdm to melee.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Nobody is requiring rdm to melee.

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Its job requirements as a jack of all trades requires it to be able to do everything to an acceptable standard while not going beyond those who are designed with the specific capabilities to melee awesomely, for instance, we are not meant to beat a WAR, DRK, or SAM, however we can come close to a BLU, THF, or NIN, and still be within our job description, we will not be top of the DD charts. The thing that is harder to balance about melee is the fact that unlike healing, where we are 3rd (WHM>SCH>RDM>PLD) or nuking where we are 3rd (BLM>SCH>RDM>DRK) melees have a much longer list of jobs, and in the end, all jobs can truly melee to some extent, so the question becomes where does one draw the line for RDM? In truth, even if you gave RDM the light DD sets I ask for all the time it would boost RDM's damage by enough to put it closer to the light DDs but it would not surpass them, most of them either have better WSs or better traits/abilities which let them surpass us either way you go about it, but it gets us closer, as a jack of all trades, that is our goal, to be following behind others enough to be of use but not enough to be stronger than them.

Delve's re-introduction of single enemy fights that include more than two people and often last longer than five minutes makes Vana'diel ripe for some new enfeebling magic. So, I pessimistically prognosticate that no new Enfeebling magic will be added and Red Mage will receive a third tier of en-spells that are ideal while somehow one-half wielding.

The first guy who really enjoys getting hit by AoEs and figures out how to break his weapon in half over a rock; he'll make out like a bandit!

Red Mage is already the best guy from the mage pile at the lion's share of what every guy from the utility melee pile normally do really well. Those things generally consist of soloing content like Dynamis or Salvage I, though. The loftiest dream of any man with a one-handed weapon at present is probably to auto-engage a Supernal Chapuli and go AFK.

If some bro really wants to equip the Athos set, though, that would take all of five minutes to change and wouldn't even change game balance enough to require examination. Why not do it if it'll make somebody happy?

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

In truth, even if you gave RDM the light DD sets I ask for all the time it would boost RDM's damage by enough to put it closer to the light DDs but it would not surpass them, most of them either have better WSs or better traits/abilities which let them surpass us either way you go about it, but it gets us closer, as a jack of all trades, that is our goal, to be following behind others enough to be of use but not enough to be stronger than them.

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I'll agree with this.

In concurrence to this, most of the stuff I mentioned in my post falls under quality of life, aside from my asking for more access to melee gear. The only real "major change" would be the stuff about merits, but I am of the opinion that merits in general (applicable to all jobs) are at best lackluster and at worst downright horrible.

I'm not really sure how RDMs can still be upset with our current status. It's probably better than it's ever been.

• Enfeebles work? Check. (Abyssea sucked!)
• Good Weapons? Check. (2 weapons for Dual Wield, possible R/M/E adjustments)
• 10% Haste Belt? Check. (You can make a TP set that works. We also have a lot of accuracy choices on top of the accuracy on our weapons)
• MAB? Check! (SOOOO MUCH!)
• Access to every lvl 2 SC property? Check!

You can enfeeble, take a hit, open or close a SC, MB, Heal, or Solo. RDM has use either front line or back line, so you should think about where you will be most effective. So long as mobs don't become immune to enfeebles again, then RDM should have use in an alliance against terrible things ( F U Exuviation ). The caveat being that you can land it.

The Elemental magic adjustment is right around the corner and I suspect we will benefit from it immensely. The real reason for RDM to be up close and personal with a mob is because you can open or close any lvl 2 property WS into Dark or Light because you have access to all of them. You can then MB for hopefully even greater justice with those adjustments to nuking.

Generic arguments for why SCing isn't efficient are wasted on RDM because they aren't actual DDs. You can afford to hold TP so that you can create SCs for yourself and other nukers. Easiest way to land a hard enfeeble, MB it.

You should always strive to do the best DPS that you can, but you should never forget that there are things you can do that are better than just straight DPS. Especially if you respect actual DDs and open for them. They do a lot more damage than you do, and they always will.

So why not make their WSs occasionally deal double damage and your nukes and enfeebles land harder?

And if there is no good place for you to be up front, why not sit back and do the most good at a range that doesn't really stop you from being useful?

RDM is in a good place right now. Especially after what it's been through that last few years. You're useful again in an alliance setting.

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Originally Posted by detlef

RDM is in a good place right now. Especially after what it's been through that last few years. You're useful again in an alliance setting.

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Going from "everyone does everything you do but way better to the point you're irrelevant" to "lolenfeebles might matter in the current content" is not a good place. SCs and the thing about enspells doing extra damage on certain Adoulin mobs are gimmicks and poor ones at that.

I expect more than just scraps off the table for my job, and as such wouldn't settle for something so meager.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Going from "everyone does everything you do but way better to the point you're irrelevant" to "lolenfeebles might matter in the current content" is not a good place. SCs and the thing about enspells doing extra damage on certain Adoulin mobs are gimmicks and poor ones at that.

I expect more than just scraps off the table for my job, and as such wouldn't settle for something so meager.

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Sounds like you just aren't good at being realistic and have an over developed love of hyperbole. Be indignant, see where that gets you. Everyone else is going to point out that RUN and BLU exist and you just do don't want to play them.

RDM has enfeebles back and you are apparently getting huffy because that's not good enough and they owe you more. Well guess what? They don't. RDM is a weird mage first and everything else that it also is second and it always has been that way. Are we on all the new mage gear? Yup. That's why we aren't on Light Melee gear. We are on Scale Mail, which plenty Light Melee aren't. It's what makes us different.

No one wants pink mages because they won't cut it ever again. Be glad. They want mages that can soften a mob up. Those are called RDMs. They do other stuff too, but generally people bring them for their utility. Cry more that we have utility again, it makes the serious RDMs look stupid by association.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

Sounds like you just aren't good at being realistic and have an over developed love of hyperbole.

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As I have repeatedly said throughout the, what, 6 years we've gone over this, I'm the type that likes to see a mess cleaned up. Not pointed somewhere else in hopes that I forget about the mess. I don't turn my eyes away from problems and forget about them. It's just a bad habit of mine both in RL and in gaming mediums where it is possible for things to get adjusted and changed.

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Are we on all the new mage gear? Yup. That's why we aren't on Light Melee gear. We are on Scale Mail, which plenty Light Melee aren't. It's what makes us different.

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Oh boy, the "different for the sake of being different" argument makes an appearance. It's not like we need the +haste, +dual wield or any of those pesky stats. Nope, +VIT and +Enmity seems to suit us just fine--oh wait.

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No one wants pink mages because they won't cut it ever again. Be glad. They want mages that can soften a mob up. Those are called RDMs. They do other stuff too, but generally people bring them for their utility. Cry more that we have utility again, it makes the serious RDMs look stupid by association.

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As I said, you're settling for scraps when this might be called a step forward if we dim the lights enough.

You're professing RDM is fine after they took a tiny step forward, and even that step is crooked due to being tied to content rather than to the job itself. You're like the starving man that grabs a stale, moldy piece of breads and declares it a banquet.

You're clearly angry because you like being angry. If you were actually playing your RDM in the current content, AKA the game, then you'd realize it's pretty well off. The content is the game. We are currently acclimated towards doing well in the game.

We have been give an extremely large cache of MAB, M.ACC, INT, MND, and Accuracy gear as well as extremely powerful weapons. We have everything a RDM needs to be useful. We don't have everything a BLU or traditional DD requires to be successful, because we are neither. Sorry you aren't good at see subtle things like what your job actually is and is not.

I'm personally very happy with what they did with RDM. There should have been extra mobs that take specific kinds of elemental damage....always. That way RDM can actually play the game, instead of having 6 enspells that are almost completely identical and 6 different elemental magics per tier that you only use blizzard and thunder from. The game is clearly getting better for RDM from the perspective of someone who actively plays the job.

If you use the word scraps again I'm just going to start insulting your lack of creativity and inability to communicate what you are upset about. Then tell you to make some food because you might be hungry. Enfeebles work and SE didn't make RDM into BLU... duh? what else? Because you clearly want attention and no one here is interested in catering to people that think they don't have to explain themselves.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

You're clearly angry because you like being angry. If you were actually playing your RDM in the current content, AKA the game, then you'd realize it's pretty well off. The content is the game. We are currently acclimated towards doing well in the game.

We have been give an extremely large cache of MAB, M.ACC, INT, MND, and Accuracy gear as well as extremely powerful weapons. We have everything a RDM needs to be useful. We don't have everything a BLU or traditional DD requires to be successful, because we are neither. Sorry you aren't good at see subtle things like what your job actually is and is not.

I'm personally very happy with what they did with RDM. There should have been extra mobs that take specific kinds of elemental damage....always. That way RDM can actually play the game, instead of having 6 enspells that are almost completely identical and 6 different elemental magics per tier that you only use blizzard and thunder from. The game is clearly getting better for RDM from the perspective of someone who actively plays the job.

If you use the word scraps again I'm just going to start insulting your lack of creativity and inability to communicate what you are upset about. Then tell you to make some food because you might be hungry. Enfeebles work and SE didn't make RDM into BLU... duh? what else? Because you clearly want attention and no one here is interested in catering to people that think they don't have to explain themselves.

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See while I agree, I disagree. We are getting a lot of stuff, but yet again this entire expansion so far has been almost nothing but mage gear when it comes to RDM, not a single piece of melee gear unless you count the Belt, which is an extension of Phos which we were already on, the swords which fall in line with the other new weapons, the All Jobs gear, or the WS gear for Req because its a MND based skill so mage gear actually works for it. Our TP set can not really be messed with, we got no new DEX gear for CDC, we got no new STR gear for KoR or DB, all of which to me seems fairly lack luster. I am not saying they gave us literally nothing, but sometimes it feels like it to me because there is a lot of gear and we are left out of most melee things, it gives me the same nasty feeling that our Emp gear does with its fully mage stats, sure it has some use for Req and such but in the end you know you got shafted with the mage gear while your melee was pushed to the side.

If I am missing some game breaking damage RDM could pull off with the Light DD gear please show me. I have used the spreadsheets and while we would get a damage boost it seems to show RDM would still not be as strong as most other DDs with utility, let alone primary DD jobs, so asking for that seems reasonable to me. As you said, we have been given a ton of MAB, MAcc, INT, MND, and Accuracy, we have all of this gear like you said and yet, we were not given any STR, DEX, Attack, or Haste. The only gear with those stats are piece of gear which I exclude because they are either All Jobs, which is a bland way of saying everyone can have it, or gear which is literally an upgrade from something we could already wear, most notably the new Haste Belt which is basically Phos Belt+2/3.

So while you are right, we have gotten a lot, its all been for magic. As much as I know a lot of people in here would disagree, melee is a part of RDM, SE gave us some items like Brego which came from VW, it was not part of a set, which is probably why we were allowed to have it, but so far nothing like that exists in Adoulin it seems. Since we are being excluded from melee yet again we are falling further behind in DPS than we already were which is terrible in my opinion. These light DD sets would help a lot, but it will not make up for natural problems in all honesty, forced sub-jobs for Dual Wield and B Rating in sword/dagger will always bring our attack down, accuracy we can make up for somewhat, but certain natural problems exist that will cause us to be weaker even if we had access to all of the gear I ask for. As I said, if something is truly broken with giving RDM Light DD gear, show me the numbers, I am more than welcome to them.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Going from "everyone does everything you do but way better to the point you're irrelevant" to "lolenfeebles might matter in the current content" is not a good place. SCs and the thing about enspells doing extra damage on certain Adoulin mobs are gimmicks and poor ones at that.

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Agreed, its easy to see in an Alliance or even a party setting we are doing better, but that is by no means a good place, its just a less terrible place. I admit melee power would not help in an Alliance either, its more for 6 man party events and such, things like Meebles or possibly Skirmish, I wouldn't know about Skirmish, I never did it, and probably never will now as no one wants to. For back lines RDM has little to offer anymore besides Enfeebling, which is good enough to get us in a party and keep us there, people have been shouting for them lately which makes me feel more welcome in a party than any other time in the last... I don't know... 2 or 3 years. What I am trying to say is we are in a better place, not a good place, and this subject I can not really see as an attempt to help RDM in an Alliance setting, but rather a low man setting, which is not to be ignored but he is right we are doing the best we have done in an Alliance for a long while.

I guess a ton of STR attack and accuracy on really good swords just isn't good enough for you guys, even though we never got anything like them before.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

I guess a ton of STR attack and accuracy on really good swords just isn't good enough for you guys, even though we never got anything like them before.

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We got Excalibur, Almace, MTrial Swords, Sanus, and so on. Weapons are not enough in my opinion, everyone gets weapons, not everyone gets gear to go with them, and we are one of those who got left out of it. Besides, after the Relic update those wont even be the best anymore either, it would be easier for me to get a Mandau for my Offhand than it would be to get the Sword from the HQ Dino, and it was the old best offhand so it probably still will be even without the attack and accuracy.

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For back lines RDM has little to offer anymore besides Enfeebling, which is good enough to get us in a party and keep us there

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No, you have plenty to offer.

You are good healers
You are good at enhancing magic, and accomodate both whm and sch subs pretty well.
You are the best enfeeblers. You, obviously, have access to the most potent enhancing magic in the game.
You are good nukers for when you wanna play around with excess mp.
Refresh II + Composure / Convert gives you great sustainability.

WHM are great healers, the best.
Good at enhancing magic,.
Decent at enfeebling, slightly lacking in both skill, and obvious magics. Accomodates sch sub well and rdm sub alright.
Nuking? Lol holy2.
AF3+2 pants increase its sustainability but it probably has the least.

SCH very good healers, potent regens, competitive with whm for healing and top-notch for reducing damage (stoneskin, phalanx, weather, barspells).
Great at enhancing magic, accomodates rdm sub the best, but only because whm sub has little to offer it, neither does blm sub.
Good at enfeebling.
The best capacity for nuking any healer has, but, of course, it comes at the expense of stratagems, and Arts on 1 min cds. Not a huge cost, but a cost.
Sublimation and proper use of stratagems making costly spells cheap, give it top-not sustainability. An sch played greatly is an amazing thing, but if you don't know what you're doing, you're going to be with a sublimations-breath of oom pretty fast.

BLM, why not.
Heals for crap, and slow, needing whm or rdm sub to even be worth mentioning.
Enfeebles well.
Good nukers.
No sustainability.

Each mage is good at things and bad at things. You're not the best healer, but sometimes your potent enfeebling is what saves the group. You're not "worse", you approach the group from a different perspective.

WHM is a reactionary healer, sch is a preemptive healer, RDM is a little of both. Doesn't make it less.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

For back lines RDM has little to offer anymore besides Enfeebling, which is good enough to get us in a party and keep us there, people have been shouting for them lately which makes me feel more welcome in a party than any other time in the last... I don't know... 2 or 3 years. What I am trying to say is we are in a better place, not a good place, and this subject I can not really see as an attempt to help RDM in an Alliance setting, but rather a low man setting, which is not to be ignored but he is right we are doing the best we have done in an Alliance for a long while.

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I'm well aware that we are in a slightly better place. What bothers me is that to some it seems to be enough, while not looking at where the improvements are coming from. There's a balance between content design and class design. What we got was a tiny spec in the direction of content design and got nothing on the end of class design, yet Mana's convinced we've reached the promised land when we haven't even taken more than the first step. Yes, the devs designing fights keeping enfeebles in mind with small gimmicks a RDM can exploit can be seen as a good thing (again, provided you dim the lights enough), but that's still ways off from calling it a day and declaring Red Mage fixed.

I agree with your other points. It sucks to see our melee side pushed to the wayside, as it happened with our AF3 set. For a job with two aspects the devs tend to lean to one and whatever scraps (:trollface:) are left over go to the other.

There are obviously much bigger problems with RDM, but gear and some QOL stuff would be a nice step forward.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

No, you have plenty to offer.

You are good healers
You are good at enhancing magic, and accomodate both whm and sch subs pretty well.
You are the best enfeeblers. You, obviously, have access to the most potent enhancing magic in the game.
You are good nukers for when you wanna play around with excess mp.
Refresh II + Composure / Convert gives you great sustainability.

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Healing, WHM and SCH make us look terrible by compare. Enhancing is awesome, but all of our enhancing which is unique is self only, and WHM often gets AoE versions of the same spells, same with SCH and Accession. We have Enfeebling, like I said. We have nuking, which again, BLM and SCH are much better at, if you want a mage who can heal, nuke, and enhance, its SCH. We have Refresh II and Composure with Convert as a backup, but guess what, SCH has the ability to /RDM and lose almost nothing of value, so it has Convert, and Sublimation is almost as strong with a SCH main as Refresh II is if not stronger I believe, so that advantage is robbed unless you mean casting it on other people.

So what makes us stand out again? Enfeebling, thats what gets us parties right now. We get use because Gravity II giving -40 Evasion, finally a use for that spell, and the gimmicks like needing Blind or Paralyzing/Slowing the Pugil who hits with enspells for thousands of damage.

I'm sorry, he begain talking abot lowman content like skirmish (though he explicitly said he's never been) and I was using lowman as a point of reference.

In lowman content, rdm can heal pretty well.

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So what makes us stand out again? Enfeebling, thats what gets us parties right now. We get use because Gravity II giving -40 Evasion, finally a use for that spell, and the gimmicks like needing Blind or Paralyzing/Slowing the Pugil who hits with enspells for thousands of damage.

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Omfg. Really? Paralyzing slowing isn't about a gimmick, it's about reducing damage taken. You should be paralyzing / slowing anyway, if it happens to be the gimmick, that's awesome.

Am I the only mage/ninja ever that grinned when my paralyze stopped a firaga IV?

Red mages happen to be able to merit higher potency.

Heck, there's your clue that rdm is not/never was a melee. Show me an rdm-specific merit that is there to enhance your melee?

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

I'm sorry, he begain talking abot lowman content like skirmish (though he explicitly said he's never been) and I was using lowman as a point of reference.

In lowman content, rdm can heal pretty well.

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Yes I did, and yes it can, but in lowman content WHM and SCH still crush RDM. In lowman content a SCH can hit an entire party with Regen V which often gives a ton of help to a healer, since its only 1 party, that covers everyone in the entire event. As for WHM, WHM can throw out free Curaga spells when people are low enough on HP, such as after a large AoE, which makes their MP last a very long time.

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Omfg. Really? Paralyzing slowing isn't about a gimmick, it's about reducing damage taken. You should be paralyzing / slowing anyway, if it happens to be the gimmick, that's awesome.

Am I the only mage/ninja ever that grinned when my paralyze stopped a firaga IV?

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Never said that was its only use. Do you normally bring a RDM to an event to stop spells with paralyze? No, its an extra bit of help most of the time but your just as happy with a lower potency Paralyze from a WHM you were already bringing. When it comes to some of these mobs like the Pugil it goes from a bonus to a necessity because without it your DDs can run out of shadows from their /NIN to quickly and end up dead. As for gimmicks in general I was mostly meaning the Blind thing, where you cant really kill Tutewehiwehi without it because its Evasion spikes when its not blinded and it gets access to two very powerful TP attacks, but with RDM casting Blind on it and keeping it that way the NM is very easy to hit and not nearly as bad to kill.

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Red mages happen to be able to merit higher potency.

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As I said, the only reason you bring a RDM now is you need good Enfeebling for some of these mobs, thats it, if you do not need good Enfeebling you do not bother with a RDM. Other than that, our potency at capped MND & INT ratios are not a ton better, yes, they are better, but the difference is not as large as you seem to think. The sad thing is that excluding our AF3+2 body, merit spells, and Saboteur, a WHM, BLM, or SCH with the proper sub-job can do just as well Enfeebling as we can if they have enough MND and INT to go with it. More so SCH than anything because of its wonderful JA which gives it a Magic Accuracy bonus provided you have it merited, which makes up for Enfeebling skill since skill only gives Magic Accuracy in the first place, which makes our higher skill fairly meaningless in reality.

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Heck, there's your clue that rdm is not/never was a melee. Show me an rdm-specific merit that is there to enhance your melee?

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No need, let me show you a spell called Temper, a spell which gives Double Attack, not Double Cast, not something to do with magic, Double Attack, level 95 spell, can not be cast on others, only yourself. Explain to me how that spell can be misconstrued to be meant for a job which is not meant to melee, I would love to know. I would also love to know why our highest skills in combat are on melee weapons focused on close combat, not something like staff or club which enhance magic. I also want to know why Composure enhances Accuracy as well as Enhancing duration, because if were not meant to melee, we shouldn't need accuracy, it should be magic accuracy right? Only a fool would use RDM's merits as an example when they have been flawed since the dawn of their existence, just like every other job who has to merit spells. Its a subject that has been argued for a long time. Stupid pointless statement, think before you post.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Yes I did, and yes it can, but in lowman content WHM and SCH still crush RDM. In lowman content a SCH can hit an entire party with Regen V which often gives a ton of help to a healer, since its only 1 party, that covers everyone in the entire event. As for WHM, WHM can throw out free Curaga spells when people are low enough on HP, such as after a large AoE, which makes their MP last a very long time.

Never said that was its only use. Do you normally bring a RDM to an event to stop spells with paralyze? No, its an extra bit of help most of the time but your just as happy with a lower potency Paralyze from a WHM you were already bringing. When it comes to some of these mobs like the Pugil it goes from a bonus to a necessity because without it your DDs can run out of shadows from their /NIN to quickly and end up dead. As for gimmicks in general I was mostly meaning the Blind thing, where you cant really kill Tutewehiwehi without it because its Evasion spikes when its not blinded and it gets access to two very powerful TP attacks, but with RDM casting Blind on it and keeping it that way the NM is very easy to hit and not nearly as bad to kill.

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You know what? First thing I think of when I think of is enfeebling magic. It was a shame during Aby/VW's era when enfeebling magic was nearly useless, especially since, several of them were procs too so you shouldn't cast them so that you could cast them when needed.

Anything could tank if they rode drinks and procs were good, and that was proven several times.

So yeah, during VW era, it was a shame that you never saw rdm. Are you a great rdm? I don't know, probably, but several great rdms I knew were never on the job.

I also look at it as assisting healing, refresh II, and--maybe some nukes tossed in. They may not nuke as hard as an sch, or heal as hard as one, but at least the don't suffer the penalties (or benefits) of switching modes.

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As I said, the only reason you bring a RDM now is you need good Enfeebling for some of these mobs, thats it, if you do not need good Enfeebling you do not bother with a RDM. Other than that, our potency at capped MND & INT ratios are not a ton better, yes, they are better, but the difference is not as large as you seem to think. The sad thing is that excluding our AF3+2 body, merit spells, and Saboteur, a WHM, BLM, or SCH with the proper sub-job can do just as well Enfeebling as we can if they have enough MND and INT to go with it. More so SCH than anything because of its wonderful JA which gives it a Magic Accuracy bonus provided you have it merited, which makes up for Enfeebling skill since skill only gives Magic Accuracy in the first place, which makes our higher skill fairly meaningless in reality.

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I know the tragedy that is /sch, just go into arts and bam, appropriate skills are decent level. Anyone can do anything. Actually, what people are finding out, is their cureboxes and mules and buddy's half-baked jobs can't do it. They can't keep up with the healing, they get resists. They can't dispel. The age of enfeebling kits will matter again, just like it did at 75, as these tiers get harder and harder. Some whms, who are probably also career rdms, will have the gear and macro it in. Most will not. Most of today's blms could barely solo a zhayol pudding now. Adoulin just might be the good player's time to shine. WS kits didn't matter so much in abyssea (razed ruins and win), and later-voidwatch, people didn't care as long as you got White, but even they are now. Proper play, if se keeps on track, might actually matter again but your griping because some offshoot dream for your class is not happening.

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No need, let me show you a spell called Temper, a spell which gives Double Attack, not Double Cast, not something to do with magic, Double Attack, level 95 spell, can not be cast on others, only yourself. Explain to me how that spell can be misconstrued to be meant for a job which is not meant to melee, I would love to know.

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Temper is a toy. WHM has long-had hexa strike. A very generous weaponskill, and if you look on youtube, you'll find videos of whm soloing many things. I like the vid of the whm soloing shin, myself, but whatever. Rdm is the enfeebler of this game, it is a backup healer and the original, and still useful, accessory nuker. RDMs have always played around with their sword and they finally got that. I don't expect an rdm to be up there meleeing any more than I'd expect a whm. I don't see many whm's crying for more melee power, even though they've had hexa forever, and have realmrazer now. WHMs know their job and they do it.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Temper is a toy.

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You wanted to point out RDM had no merits, my point was that no, it has no merits, but it has spells which specifically go with it, you could say NIN has no melee based merits, the closest is Subtle Blow but since that effects ranged attacks and one of its merits are for that, I think it fits more with that category, does that mean NIN is not a melee job? No, its a melee job, merits meant nothing, RDM's are no different, we have 6 spells, 6 potencies, and 1 other merit, the difference with NIN is they have three other merits, it would be like if we got Conserve MP and 1% Fast Cast/Merit as merits.

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WHM has long-had hexa strike. A very generous weaponskill, and if you look on youtube, you'll find videos of whm soloing many things. I like the vid of the whm soloing shin, myself, but whatever.

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Yes, WHM can do some impressive things melee as well, the difference is that it has special gear for meleeing that is literally JSE, which in all honesty is weird because it puts it as more of a melee job in that respect than RDM is in all honesty. Something else which annoys me since that is a job who is really not meant to melee much, do I still support melee WHMs? Yes, so long as they are still getting their job done they can hit the mob to their hearts content!

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Rdm is the enfeebler of this game, it is a backup healer and the original, and still useful, accessory nuker.

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Its the Jack of all Trades, thats why it has various mid-ranged skills, instead of just magic skills and a few rogue melee type skills, its also why its on Excalibur, Mandau, Almace, and has a Sword for a Mythic, AF weapon, and its Abyssea weapon. A RDM's weapon is meant to be a melee weapon, a blade or knife of sorts, while it casts magic as well, I am not sure how else to explain it, its written all over the job's main hand.

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RDMs have always played around with their sword and they finally got that. I don't expect an rdm to be up there meleeing any more than I'd expect a whm. I don't see many whm's crying for more melee power, even though they've had hexa forever, and have realmrazer now. WHMs know their job and they do it.

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I do not expect to melee with RDM all the time either, like I said, mainly low man events are times when a RDM can melee. Go do Neo-Salvage, want an extra DD? Take a RDM, they can heal and DD at the same time, on NMs they can focus on healing and if you have another healer, they can give Refresh for some extra MP. Same goes with Meebles, DD and healer in one, fighting the boss? Have the RDM step back, bosses have high evasion by compare to RDM in there so its often best to stand back and support against them. When doing Alliance content with high amounts of buffs against a hard mob who you will hit low damage on anyways, when Req because a worthless WS and KoR or CDC do not do much better, those are the times when RDM steps back and does nothing but magic or simply does not come at all, and in most cases its the latter.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

There's a balance between content design and class design.

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Yeah, we went from Aby and VW where the content told us to not even bother showing up because we weren't going to be used to Adoulin, where they changed the entire content to encourage us to use our natural strengths while severely limiting most other jobs in the game because they lacked personal toughness and survivability. All of our enfeebles land again and some mobs take extra damage from both nukes and enspells. That is QOL.

It's not enough that we were to get ahead from being behind, it was also that almost everyone else realized how squishy and fragile they were. That has all happened and you guy are asking for more.

You don't know how to say thank you or even realize that you should. Your mentality seems to be: If they didn't hand RDM something specific, then it wasn't for us and it doesn't count. But in fact, RDM became more powerful from game wide adjustments that undid a lot of the raw deals that RDM had been putting up with since abyssea came out.

Enfeebles no longer land to no effect. Immunobreak tells us if a mob is completely resistant to an enfeeble. Healing adjustments. Easy Cure Potency gear. Req is MND based. Defense matters for the first time probably ever and lowering mobs defense is more attractive. Broken good swords not just for main hand, but also for offhand that have attack, accuracy, STR, and rival Prestige weapons. Also, our Mythic might become very powerful after the hypothetical adjustments. Mobs take extra damage from all forms of magical damage. Coming soon is adjustments to 1h weapons attribute contributions and a general buff to nuking.

And the biggest QOL adjustment, NO MORE LEVEL CORRECTION. Maybe you realize how important that is for RDM or maybe you don't actually play your RDM.

Overall, My major gripes with the faults of RDM is the fact that it's missing quite a few spells that it SHOULD have: Banish I, II, Flash, Holy, Drain, Aspir. The En-II spells suck horrible and should be treated like the COR's Card Shots; drastically increasing the effects of the elemental debuffs and the success rate of enfeebling spells of landing. If it's an enfeebler then it should have spells of the GEO which lower Physical/Magic ACC, ATT, DEF, & EVA, as well as Amnesia. It's merits need to be serious looked at. RDM should also have access to ALL Sword and Dagger WS. (Same way I felt that PUP should have access to all the H2H that were non-mythic). Access to the same DD armors at BLU gets would be fair. RDM is falling but by no means is RUN a close replace to RDM. RDM can still run circle around RUN. But RDM is still far from what it should be. Should it be better at DD than NIN, DNC, THF, SAM, MNK, DRK, or DRG... No, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't see an increase of what it can do to fill in for one of those roles if they aren't there or currently needed else where. The other problem RDM faces is the player-base... Of course these are just my opinions.

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