Being a Summoner can be disheartening these days :/

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

While we can't give a specific time frame, please rest assured that the development team is receiving your feedback and they do have plans to adjust avatars.

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Okipuit, can you please pass on to the dev team that we would like to hear about these plans before they spend the manpower implementing them? We understand that the team is understaffed. A lot of dev time could be saved by bringing plans to the player base and taking in our feedback first. You would be able to save time on revamping ideas that are met with overwhelming hostility by the players. It would also confirm that you guys really are listening to our ideas because a lot of the time it does not feel like that is the case.

Even if you don't have a time frame for when these changes will be implemented (and there are separate issues with that), we would very much appreciate it if you could let us know what you are thinking about in terms of adjustments. We will do our best to respond with specific, focused comments. The worst possible outcome is the dev team taking a year to implement something that no one asked for or really wants.

Why do we always keep mentioning how we understand that the team is understaffed? It is not our problem. We pay a subscription fee, we expect a certain quality of service. It would not be hard to make simple adjustments to SMN.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Read before quote.

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I am stating that they have done so close to nothing that you should not even pretend to let them think they've done something.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

Okipuit, can you please pass on to the dev team that we would like to hear about these plans before they spend the manpower implementing them? We understand that the team is understaffed. A lot of dev time could be saved by bringing plans to the player base and taking in our feedback first. You would be able to save time on revamping ideas that are met with overwhelming hostility by the players. It would also confirm that you guys really are listening to our ideas because a lot of the time it does not feel like that is the case.

Even if you don't have a time frame for when these changes will be implemented (and there are separate issues with that), we would very much appreciate it if you could let us know what you are thinking about in terms of adjustments. We will do our best to respond with specific, focused comments. The worst possible outcome is the dev team taking a year to implement something that no one asked for or really wants.

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This is one of the best, most intelligent posts ever posted on this forum.

[I had written a lot of stuff here, but decided it was pointless.]

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This is one of the best, most intelligent posts ever posted on this forum.

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I agree, and IMNSHO it is a LOT more productive than RAGEMODE SMN SUX FIX THE #&^$ JOB SE DO NOTHING DOESNT CARE WAAHRBLGARBL.

Posting in an immature, raging, childish fashion is not going to make a difference here. Coherent feedback with strong support conveyed in a tactful manner is far more likely (at least, more than 0% likely) to get our real message across.

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Originally Posted by Genoxd

Legs: Nothing (wow I had to double check, that's actually shocking...)

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Took me a while to remember what they were, but: post 75 smn legs

I suggest altering avatar's favor, allow access to the buffs as a bloodpact ward instead of an aura that needs to charge and enhance the potency a bit, that will give summoner a place in advanced battles.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Took me a while to remember what they were, but: post 75 smn legs

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Also: Ngen Seraweels
(BP Damage +5%)

Even releasing the new SMN 1hr before the others would be epic. Obviously this isn't going to happen, as everyone will cry foul that the other jobs weren't released at the same time. XD

actually, you were promised Cait Sith in 2008. Don't know if anyone mentioned that yet.

Thank you! I knew I was forgetting something on leg pieces!
Editing post!

Edit: I'd like to point out that this last update PUP got an Animator that gives Automaton all stats +70. Why can't we have gear like this?

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Originally Posted by Infidi

Even releasing the new SMN 1hr before the others would be epic. Obviously this isn't going to happen, as everyone will cry foul that the other jobs weren't released at the same time. XD

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Unless they fixed the RDM one to not suck, I would rather not get my ability, at least then I could have some hope they come to their senses...

while "adjusting" Avatars... factor in the pace of battles these days, fights are extremely fast!

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Originally Posted by Edyth

This is one of the best, most intelligent posts ever posted on this forum.

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You are too kind. :) I can't lie though. I have had my rage moments! Being a career SMN can do that to you! hehe

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Originally Posted by Genoxd

I'm sorry, I'm going to be quite rude here.

You've been receiving our feedback and making plans for summoner for the past 8-9 years yet all we've gotten is Fenrir (decent concept no longer relevant) Diabolos (worthless other then Netherblast for Kirin years ago) Odin/Alexander (2hrs that were suppose to be actual avatars)

Now you told us Cait and Atomos would be avatars but we've gotten nothing.

Stop sugar coating it. You don't like SMN because it requires too many resources to create new content for and it's such a unique class that it also requires specific gear that you don't feel like spending time on.'

Your "plans" to adjust avatars are likely in the
-"oh hey Jim I think we should fix avatars they seem broken"
-"oh yeah you're right bob, lets do that some day"

Save for maybe a random mention at a meeting, I doubt you've done crap.

And that Cait video you posted? Honestly I could swap some dat files and I'd have what you showed us, and I'm guessing that's all you actually did.

I really want to start cussing at the dev team for even attempting a post like this, too bad it's not allowed. I honestly find it insulting.

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Solution to problem? Fire Jim and Bob. Obviously they are not doing there job correctly. C'mon I don't even play SMN and I feel bad for you guys. Honestly? They keep implementing all this new stuff thinking we are gonna forget about the old stuff. They keep bringing it back up to us; reminding us that they have failed to do their job. If they didn't plan on implementing the content that they promised you guys in the first place within a few months... WHY WOULD THEY EVEN BOTHER BRINGING IT UP? Fire Jim. Fire Bob. So Jim-Bob Jr. and Bob-Jim Jr. can starve because Daddy didn't do his job correctly. We pay to play... so they should pay because we can't play. Done Done. Enjoy.

Edit: Removed double "didn't".

The hate situation is absolutely ridiculous. From a player perspective, there is no situation where i would mind if my avatar had hate, as long as that hate doesn't transfer to me when it dies.My PLD may mind the mob hitting our whm, but who cares if it kills my Shiva? It's not like bst when theres a big timer on re-summoning. Give them hate , we don't care...we'll just cast another.

To be honest I wouldn't even care if hate went to me when my avatar died so long as I actually preformed well. If hateless damage is the big reason we're OP then just have it give us hate oh well~ maybe SMN can stack Enmity- gear then, we seem to get a lot of it.

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Originally Posted by Zeldar

The hate situation is absolutely ridiculous. From a player perspective, there is no situation where i would mind if my avatar had hate, as long as that hate doesn't transfer to me when it dies.My PLD may mind the mob hitting our whm, but who cares if it kills my Shiva? It's not like bst when theres a big timer on re-summoning. Give them hate , we don't care...we'll just cast another.

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I agree that it seems like very weak reasoning.

Back in the Dark Ages of XP, when we leveled up via VT-IT mobs (man, those were the days, huh?) it was a good thing when avatars stole hate for a few moments. Tank wasn't beat on, healer didn't need to spam cures, and Summoners got to feel like something other than a /whm for a few moments.

I can actually think of one time when it might matter - on mobs with direction based TP moves (e.g. Spike Flail). That's really the only time I can think of, and the problems with that can be easily be ameliorated by a Summoner who knows what they're doing.

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Originally Posted by Genoxd

To be honest I wouldn't even care if hate went to me when my avatar died so long as I actually preformed well. If hateless damage is the big reason we're OP then just have it give us hate oh well~ maybe SMN can stack Enmity- gear then, we seem to get a lot of it.

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I don't see enmity transfer on avatar death being a good path for Summoner. For example, it would be the death of avatar kiting, unless they also give us an ability to transfer that hate to a fresh avatar. And given that avatars are rather flimsy, the ability would have to have such a short cool down as to make you wonder why they even bothered to have the hate transfer in the first place...

In a group scenario, as the fight dragged on, we would eventually wind up near the top of the hate list, which would drag the mob way away from the front line and over to the support team. One good (read: nasty, annoyingly timed) AoE would then have the back line in disarray.

I don't want to have to go off to the special Summoner-gets-killed corner all by myself...

Pretty sure that the avatar taking hate is what SE doesn't want, and what we want is irrelevant.

Adjustments have been made recently to AOE damage for players/pets that aren't the main target, so I can only assume that SE doesn't want the avatar to be taking hate and allowing the players to get away with minimal damage.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Pretty sure that the avatar taking hate is what SE doesn't want, and what we want is irrelevant.

Adjustments have been made recently to AOE damage for players/pets that aren't the main target, so I can only assume that SE doesn't want the avatar to be taking hate and allowing the players to get away with minimal damage.

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If that is the case, I think my FFXI days may be over. I don't mean to sound overly dramatic, but this change is so ridiculous. Not only does it show a lack of understanding about how we actually play this game, but it also shows that they aren't listening to the players at all. Also, effectively ruining the solo capability of a job that has been the same way since it's inception is just more than I can stomach.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Yeah man. I'm sorry, dev team, but you really are running out of time here. You shouldn't promise things you don't know if you can deliver.

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"For real real gaiz!"

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

If that is the case, I think my FFXI days may be over. I don't mean to sound overly dramatic, but this change is so ridiculous. Not only does it show a lack of understanding about how we actually play this game, but it also shows that they aren't listening to the players at all. Also, effectively ruining the solo capability of a job that has been the same way since it's inception is just more than I can stomach.

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https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-i...all+violin.jpg

SAYYY IT AINT SO

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Originally Posted by Genoxd

I'm sorry, I'm going to be quite rude here.

You've been receiving our feedback and making plans for summoner for the past 8-9 years yet all we've gotten is Fenrir (decent concept no longer relevant) Diabolos (worthless other then Netherblast for Kirin years ago) Odin/Alexander (2hrs that were suppose to be actual avatars)

Now you told us Cait and Atomos would be avatars but we've gotten nothing.

Stop sugar coating it. You don't like SMN because it requires too many resources to create new content for and it's such a unique class that it also requires specific gear that you don't feel like spending time on.'

Your "plans" to adjust avatars are likely in the
-"oh hey Jim I think we should fix avatars they seem broken"
-"oh yeah you're right bob, lets do that some day"

Save for maybe a random mention at a meeting, I doubt you've done crap.

And that Cait video you posted? Honestly I could swap some dat files and I'd have what you showed us, and I'm guessing that's all you actually did.

I really want to start cussing at the dev team for even attempting a post like this, too bad it's not allowed. I honestly find it insulting.

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I think I love you.

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Originally Posted by Mokeil

I agree that it seems like very weak reasoning.

Back in the Dark Ages of XP, when we leveled up via VT-IT mobs (man, those were the days, huh?) it was a good thing when avatars stole hate for a few moments. Tank wasn't beat on, healer didn't need to spam cures, and Summoners got to feel like something other than a /whm for a few moments.

I can actually think of one time when it might matter - on mobs with direction based TP moves (e.g. Spike Flail). That's really the only time I can think of, and the problems with that can be easily be ameliorated by a Summoner who knows what they're doing.



I don't see enmity transfer on avatar death being a good path for Summoner. For example, it would be the death of avatar kiting, unless they also give us an ability to transfer that hate to a fresh avatar. And given that avatars are rather flimsy, the ability would have to have such a short cool down as to make you wonder why they even bothered to have the hate transfer in the first place...

In a group scenario, as the fight dragged on, we would eventually wind up near the top of the hate list, which would drag the mob way away from the front line and over to the support team. One good (read: nasty, annoyingly timed) AoE would then have the back line in disarray.

I don't want to have to go off to the special Summoner-gets-killed corner all by myself...

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Do you mean like BLM SCH WHM RDM GEO? Are those the ones you're worried about? News flash, they already pull more then enough hate nuking and curing. Have you seen the enmity generated from debuffs? We don't stand a chance at pulling hate over any of those mages.

Assuming it was a long fight and Cumulative Enmity managed to cap, the way SMN currently stands there would be no way for it to build Volatile Enmity fast enough. 45 sec is too long between BPs and we do far too little damage. On top of that, if we let our avatars die instead of dismiss them it's likely the damage they take would wipe all the CE they'd have accumulated leaving us with only VE to deal with. Considering a SMN acting as a SMN (no healing and such) generates virtually no hate. There is little to no chance that we'd actually pull hate unless all the other mages were dead and the tank and all melee died.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Pretty sure that the avatar taking hate is what SE doesn't want, and what we want is irrelevant.

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Ain't that the truth....

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Adjustments have been made recently to AOE damage for players/pets that aren't the main target, so I can only assume that SE doesn't want the avatar to be taking hate and allowing the players to get away with minimal damage.

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Did that happen already? I thought that was one of those "this is what we're maybe thinking of implementing sometime in the future" type things.

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Originally Posted by Genoxd

Assuming it was a long fight and Cumulative Enmity managed to cap, the way SMN currently stands there would be no way for it to build Volatile Enmity fast enough. 45 sec is too long between BPs and we do far too little damage.

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I thought that your proposed hate transfer was supposed to accompany some sort of increase in avatar performance - likely with a focus in the areas of damage generating and defense. In light of this, I wasn't speaking of an "as SMN currently stands" scenario, but one in which our avatars are far more competitive in output.

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Originally Posted by Mokeil

I thought that your proposed hate transfer was supposed to accompany some sort of increase in avatar performance - likely with a focus in the areas of damage generating and defense. In light of this, I wasn't speaking of an "as SMN currently stands" scenario, but one in which our avatars are far more competitive in output.

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Assuming an Avatar could actually keep up in damage with the top DD then yes they would eventually target the SMN. That said, we had issues like this in the past before Abyssea where everyone forgot how to play. Cure has a range of approximately 20 yalms (or 21 I forget) and there's no reason SMNs and other mages can't separate. Most AoE are in the 10-15 range however some do go to 20 or even 30. It is quite easy to have Healers in 1 area 20ish yalms from the DD and at the same time 20 yalms from the SMN (and I assume BLM and other DD mages who will take hate)

Healers can heal DD and mages as needed yet both stay out of the shorter range AoEs and it becomes quite easy to avoid the 20 yalm AoEs. 30+ depends on speed of attack and such. This isn't hard people, we did all of this in the past. Remember fighting dragons or KB?

absolutely horrible paint.net drawing in spoiler depicting such a situation.

http://i42.tinypic.com/eg11y.jpg

Also yes SMN is going to die more often if they take hate, but honestly who cares? Is not dying worth sucking?

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Originally Posted by Genoxd

Also yes SMN is going to die more often if they take hate, but honestly who cares? Is not dying worth sucking?

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Dieing used to be a much bigger deal than it is now... don't forget no matter what job you were on you HAD to Meripo at 75~ now exp comes in bountiful amounts EVERYWHERE.

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Originally Posted by Genoxd

Is not dying worth sucking?

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An interesting question, to be sure. Generally, players wish to perform at the highest level they can that doesn't end up with them taking a dirt nap. A dead or weakened player can't contribute as well as a healthy one, after all. Admittedly, this is less of an issue for Summoners and Beastmasters, as they can pull out a fresh, full powered pet at any time.

All the same, whatever other means by which we're contributing to the fight will be impacted, be it via meleeing or supporting via spells from our support jobs. Additionally, I still feel we'd find ourselves holding back while weakend, as Summoner's low HP compounded with being weakened will leave us open to being one-shot by a stray breeze.

Ultimately, the answer will entirely depend on how such a system would be implemented. I can envision scenarios in which it solves all our problems. I can, however, envision far more scenarios in which it makes more problems for us than it solves, as even our ability to solo/duo/trio NMs is smashed apart. SE's track record for drastic changes is fairly spotty, and I'm not sure they can get the balance right.

Well according to this:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...d=1#post432203

One of our fixes are grips with avatar stats on them.... These better be some Freakishly awesome stats.

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

One of our fixes are grips with avatar stats on them.... These better be some Freakishly awesome stats.

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Pup did get an animator that grants +70 to all of an automaton's stats. Something along those lines would make a good start at catching us up. I just hope they're not all from Delve only...

The Follow-up to Level 99 RME thread also mentions that WoE weapons will likely be used to unlock the weapon skills. Being able to use Myrkr with any staff would be fairly nifty.

Also: SE Dev/Rep guys? You gave us something more concrete to go on, as well as a reasonable time frame to expect these changes in. Thank You.

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Originally Posted by Mokeil

Pup did get an animator that grants +70 to all of an automaton's stats. Something along those lines would make a good start at catching us up. I just hope they're not all from Delve only...

The Follow-up to Level 99 RME thread also mentions that WoE weapons will likely be used to unlock the weapon skills. Being able to use Myrkr with any staff would be fairly nifty.

Also: SE Dev/Rep guys? You gave us something more concrete to go on, as well as a reasonable time frame to expect these changes in. Thank You.

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Yes, I'm hoping it's something along the lines of that animator. It really needs to be at this point. As for the WoE weapons, I was very happy about that. I imagine they would let us with the real emp weapon would be able to take our WS with us as well. I'd love to have my Myrkr on something else.

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

Yes, I'm hoping it's something along the lines of that animator. It really needs to be at this point. As for the WoE weapons, I was very happy about that. I imagine they would let us with the real emp weapon would be able to take our WS with us as well. I'd love to have my Myrkr on something else.

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Would be hilarious if people who made the WoE weapon get to take their WS with them, but ppl who made the empy don't!

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

Yes, I'm hoping it's something along the lines of that animator. It really needs to be at this point. As for the WoE weapons, I was very happy about that. I imagine they would let us with the real emp weapon would be able to take our WS with us as well. I'd love to have my Myrkr on something else.

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Actually, I'd love it if they didn't, and tied avatar stats to staff damage (and tied nuke acc/attack to staff damage, etc) the way they're tying wyvern stats to polearm damage.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Actually, I'd love it if they didn't, and tied avatar stats to staff damage (and tied nuke acc/attack to staff damage, etc) the way they're tying wyvern stats to polearm damage.

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Pet stat progression tied to staves vs Pet stat progression tied to grips? What's the difference? They would both still be an item we'd more or less be required to get. At least with the grip I won't be forced to give up my -perp Magian staves.

Grips/straps to boost avatars is fine by me. Sounds like it would make for more flexibility in gear choices.

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Originally Posted by Genoxd

Neck: Regain 1/tick

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Pretty sure smn af3 neck is 2.5tick regain not 1tick.

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Originally Posted by Calatilla

Pretty sure smn af3 neck is 2.5tick regain not 1tick.

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Yep. ^^ 2.5 a tic. :D I hope grips are adequate boosts. :( And just a one size fits all dealio', like the new animator, not ton of different grips with diff stats on them.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Actually, I'd love it if they didn't, and tied avatar stats to staff damage (and tied nuke acc/attack to staff damage, etc) the way they're tying wyvern stats to polearm damage.

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I don't think an Avatar meleeing with Staff DPS will be any better than a SMN meleeing with Staff DPS, in fact it'd be worse, cause pets dont have food or gear haste. I'll take the Alternator ;\

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Originally Posted by Mokeil

Pet stat progression tied to staves vs Pet stat progression tied to grips? What's the difference? They would both still be an item we'd more or less be required to get. At least with the grip I won't be forced to give up my -perp Magian staves.

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First: You should be HAPPY to give up your perp magian staves- you never needed them in the first place. I haven't used a perp staff in years. There is more than enough perp- and refresh on gear to counter perp cost even with zero perp cost on a weapon. Even if you don't have enough, you can use avatar's favor to negate the rest at minimal loss of damage.

The difference is one of them is a good idea and the other is a terrible idea. The difference being not a grip that says "avatar magic attack bonus" or "base stats +100" on it, but rather literally basing avatar damage calculations on the DMG: of your weapon.

Likewise, BLM nuke damage ought to be based on the DMG: of their weaopon.

I was under the impression that this is what they were doing for DRG.

SMN needs systemic changes to the way things are determined and how their abilities work- not stat boosts. I don't care if they make a grip that has "avatar: all stats +70". I want shorter BP timers (without gear), better damage calculations, skillchains on lv70 pacts, the new pacts not sucking, enmity fixes, etc.

+ stats for avatars on gear is about the last thing I want. That should only come after everything that's actually broken about SMN is fixed. Gear can't fix every problem SMN has right now. While stat bonuses are nice, they don't fix things that are inherently broken.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I don't think an Avatar meleeing with Staff DPS will be any better than a SMN meleeing with Staff DPS, in fact it'd be worse, cause pets dont have food or gear haste. I'll take the Alternator ;\

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I'm shocked at you- I thought you knew more about this stuff. I'm not talking about melee damage. I'm talking about all damage. The same way a weapon determines your weapon skill damage, your weapon should determine BP damage. You'd be an idiot to take the + stats item over something like that. The DMG rating on any R/E/M or expansion staff would drastically increase avatar damage, both on melee attacks and on physical BPs.

It wouldn't simply be the pet's attacks having DMG:108 or whatever. it would rather be a modifier into all of its damage calculations. Even if it was simply straight up damage, the base dmg of avatars is horrendous and increasing it by like a factor of 5 would do a lot more than doubling its STR INT MND etc. It would do a lot more than avatar magic attack bonus +50 as well (though having both sure wouldn't hurt e.g. skirmish weapon)

tl;dr you're wrong, and basing an avatar's dmg on weapon damage would boost it a lot more than adding +X to STR INT MND DEX CHR VIT AGI. Then you could have gear with stats on it, like Pet: Haste + X%, and your complaint about the idea is solved. Even against low level mobs, SMN damage isn't that impressive- and thats a situation where the int dif / str dif should be maxed out.

None of you should be "fine" about grips with SMN stats. Stats are the least of SMN's troubles. Kinda funny how I started this thread on SE's side, then when they come up with a terrible idea, now suddenly everyone's on SE's side and I'm not...

One last edit: There is also no reason why you couldn't have weapons be more important to SMN and also have new grips. These two things aren't mutually exclusive.

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I'm shocked at you- I thought you knew more about this stuff. I'm not talking about melee damage. I'm talking about all damage. The same way a weapon determines your weapon skill damage, your weapon should determine BP damage. You'd be an idiot to take the + stats item over something like that. The DMG rating on any R/E/M or expansion staff would drastically increase avatar damage, both on melee attacks and on physical BPs.

It wouldn't simply be the pet's attacks having DMG:108 or whatever. it would rather be a modifier into all of its damage calculations. Even if it was simply straight up damage, the base dmg of avatars is horrendous and increasing it by like a factor of 5 would do a lot more than doubling its STR INT MND etc. It would do a lot more than avatar magic attack bonus +50 as well (though having both sure wouldn't hurt e.g. skirmish weapon)

tl;dr you're wrong, and basing an avatar's dmg on weapon damage would boost it a lot more than adding +X to STR INT MND DEX CHR VIT AGI. Then you could have gear with stats on it, like Pet: Haste + X%, and your complaint about the idea is solved. Even against low level mobs, SMN damage isn't that impressive- and thats a situation where the int dif / str dif should be maxed out.

None of you should be "fine" about grips with SMN stats. Stats are the least of SMN's troubles. Kinda funny how I started this thread on SE's side, then when they come up with a terrible idea, now suddenly everyone's on SE's side and I'm not...

One last edit: There is also no reason why you couldn't have weapons be more important to SMN and also have new grips. These two things aren't mutually exclusive.

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Can't say i agree, but not 100% disagree, Giving them a Staves DMG isn't going to suddenly make their fSTR, Acc, attack and dDEX not suck. Without both a DMG Boost and the Alternator-Type buffs, neither are going to be very worthwhile (Except maybe Magicals).

I can wack a 150 DMG Staff on SMN, but on content worth a d*mn I'll still be punching like I'm wielding a Rounsey Wand. While DMG:150 would be a nice step up from the GARBAGE they are now, I'd rather them give us our Alternator Grip and just rework Avatars Damage/Delay altogether, rather than dooming them to Staff Damage, which hasn't gone well for any of the jobs.

So, Basically, We're both wrong and right, but one without the other will be lackluster.

That and If they're going to keep us at this absolutely retarded 45 Second delay cap on BP Timers, I'd like Avatar melee DPS To count for something too :p