Dear SE: STOP AVOIDING IT.

The only situation in which ifrit's enfire isn't useful is when you have no melee or your melee consists of an army of rune fencers and/or dancers. The damage added is significant, especially on dual wielding onehanders. Of particular note it makes the lv95->99 LB quest laughably easy.

Yes you are right theirs a war going on this thread
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ominion-Retake

GM tanked down like button and edit button also few sec ago.

STOP AVOIDING IT GM LOL

RDM beats your pet jobs for most neglected job on 11!!!!!




/wrists x_x

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Originally Posted by Mokeil

Hastega is actually the one Ward that I can flat out say no one can touch us on - and that's mostly because it doesn't stack with Accession.

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Hastega is a spell that White Mages and Red Mages should have been given years ago as well though.

That said, I could support the ward version having a skill based scaling or a better skill based scaling over the spell version that allows high skill to boost it past the current value - this would also make SMN better then /SMN for casting the spell in a major way.

Summoner's best bloodpacts shouldn't merely be spells that other jobs should have gotten years ago but never did.

should be cool if they fix smn buffsm stronger stoneskin, blink shadows based on smn magic skill similar to occulation blue mage spells, stronger phalanx effect or let it stack with phalanx rdm spells, enspells are shitty and really weak, just enfire is decent tho, increase potency on enspells for ramuh based on smn magic skill.

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Originally Posted by Unaisis

RDM beats your pet jobs for most neglected job on 11!!!!!




/wrists x_x

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good god man dont get me started on RDM. they need to include RDM into high level leather type DPS gears. its high time they had access. if they did that, a rdm would be a little better for endgame melee.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Hastega is a spell that White Mages and Red Mages should have been given years ago as well though.

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Speaking as a fellow who will always consider Summoner my main job, and having said that Hastega is our one good Ward no one else can match... I honestly have no clue why no one else has a Hastega option, yet, either. At the very least it should stack with Accession like every other buff. Having to keep up a Haste rotation on (more or less) everyone is a nuisance that just shouldn't be.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

tidal roar is acutally pretty handy given the new defense formula. 25% attack down under the new att/def ratio is/should be a measurable reduction in melee damage.

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I was excited when I first used the move... Then I realized that with the then-current state of Defense vs Attack, it did pretty much bupkis and never used it again on anything serious. I'm definitely interested in what Tidal Roar can do with the recent change. The fact that its a percentage based effect gives me some hope it will start to find a place in endgame usage. Time will tell.

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Originally Posted by Keyln

Hastega.

/char

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hey. fk you buddy. <3

I did however mention that in my thread that Hastega was our last remaining refuge as far as BP:wards go. I will say this, SMN is useful for things like Reives because their buffs are AoE... to everyone. Which is nice when you're not all in a party. So its cool for Reives/Campaign, But outside of those unique situations, our AoEs (sans hastega) are just gimp versions of otherwise good spells. Oh, and as i mentioned, Ifrit's Enfire is pretty balling when there's no DNC for miles.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I swear I went over this with you before, or someone recently lol, its a joke on someone who made a sig before me with "Real Summoner" as their comment, I had Ol'Galka make me a Sig with "Realer Summoner" as a joke, because I Melee on SMN (sometimes) and as a joke, I was saying Meleeing is more Real than BP > Thumb up your a** for 45 seconds.

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This guy is always butt hurt over every thing and will pull out whatever he can to try to get an edge on someone. Just ignore him Karbuncle.

I could count on one finger the times I heard "Hey, let's invite that SMN so he/she can Hastega us!" and I would be left with a finger unused.
Hastega as a spell is long overdue for AT LEAST White Mage and Scholar (via Accession). I understand Haste is freakishly powerful in XI, but I couldn't care less if they gave the AoE version to WHM or whatever. It wouldn't change anything for SMN. Anything.

I find myself using SMN less and less often, especially since the enmity update. It was my solo job, my "safety" job to try out new things and the likes. Now I can't even do that because our Avatars suck.
They are terrible damage dealers and can't hold hate to save my life. Literally. They lose enmity faster than they can get it via BPs or melee swings (which are pathetic). I can't heal them like a BST/PUP can heal their pets. I can't switch enmity with them like a BST/PUP can. I can't safely resummon because I die faster than ever thanks to my awesome wet paper defense.

Summoner is a pet MAGE. It needs to be treated like one. Give us tools to interact with our Avatars more and make them scale better with level. Give them another job instead of BLM for God's sake. We are still using lv70 BPs for physical damage, we can't heal them, we can't protect them, we can't tinker with their enmity, defense, attack or other stats beside the use of Blood Pacts or pet-specific equipment.
I'd rather have one pet that costs 500MP to summon but it's durable and interactive than potentially infinite weaker pets I can throw to a monster's face until it dies.
Most of the times it feels like I'm zombie'ing a mob to death.

Honestly, SMN has a lot of love on everything but it's damage output.

Good stuff 75 --> 99
Loads more perp gear
Loads more Pet specific gear
Earthern armor (an incredibly useful abilty in some fights)
Fleet wind <3 (may not have effet on fight but running faster is always awsome ^^)
Shock squall (this alone is a huge buff to smn)
Diamond storm/Tidal roar ( could be useful in the future in debuffing strong mobs easpically the -25% attack down w/ the new atk/def update)

So yea saying stuff like "has not had a legitimate update" ... your kinda wrong.

Last good update was limbus update the new shoes are insane for BP DMG.

With all that said in my opinion they're are 2 clear issues with SMN.

Blood pact time cap is -15 still >< other jobs can get 80% haste or 50% recast yet blood pacts are stuck at 25%.

While DMG has gone up from gear and avatars gaining MAB the, % increase is much much lower than other jobs % increase in DMG. I'd even say a DD WHM got a bigger DMG buffs than SMN over the updates.

what, they updated spirits, I was reading the threads back then, apparently that was the most important thing in the game.

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

Honestly, SMN has a lot of love on everything but it's damage output.

Good stuff 75 --> 99
Loads more perp gear
Loads more Pet specific gear
Earthern armor (an incredibly useful abilty in some fights)
Fleet wind <3 (may not have effet on fight but running faster is always awsome ^^)
Shock squall (this alone is a huge buff to smn)
Diamond storm/Tidal roar ( could be useful in the future in debuffing strong mobs easpically the -25% attack down w/ the new atk/def update)

So yea saying stuff like "has not had a legitimate update" ... your kinda wrong.

Last good update was limbus update the new shoes are insane for BP DMG.

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The phrase "job update" has a particular, accepted, idiomatic meaning specifying changes to existing job abilities/traits/spells, or adding new ones to help the job fulfill its role in a more beneficent manner. New toys gained during the level cap upgrades are more a natural consequence of leveling than a "job update".

Additionally, the phrase is often taken to mean tweaks that are specific to the job, as opposed to general changes. For that reason, new gear is rarely counted, unless it offers spectacularly sweeping changes particular to the way the job is played. New boots that allow us to deal a little more damage do not count. I am willing to admit that all the recent -perp gear that allows us to have free avatars does, though.

I'm certainly not saying we haven't benefited from the new BPs or new gear, or that they aren't nice! The thing is that they do little to alleviate our core problems - things like the enforced 45 second BP timer... or the horrendous potency of 90% of our Wards... or the near unusably of Avatar's Favor... We're still in need of a lot of fixes to get us up to par.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

what, they updated spirits, I was reading the threads back then, apparently that was the most important thing in the game.

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They also reduced the recast of all our avatars down to 5 seconds!

As a summoner too i notice the lacking auto-attack damage and rate. Either better traits and stats, or being treated at hand-to-hand mechanics for their attacks (always attacking twice+) and a buff to their hp could help. Another 2 personal issues though.

-First being the fact that summoner can not heal with a pet out, when they may or may not be the most in need of healing while their pet tends to things.

-Second, the fact that summoners as pet jobs (as well as select frames for pup.) are affected more adversely by both amnesia -and- silence. Perhaps pet commands need to be branched to avoid amnesia for jobs (or atleast summoner?). That was always one of the things that bugged me was sitting there, staring at an avatar, amnesiaed, unable to tell them to attack, or leave, or anything. Just the assault/deploy/fight commands and their pet release commands would be nice to be separated from this.

Well, dancer just got our AOE movement speed aka Fleet Wind, at 120 seconds flat, without even have to skill up dancer magic lol. Ours however is severely tied to summon magic which does not exactly skilling up as fast as it should be.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

Well, dancer just got our AOE movement speed aka Fleet Wind, at 120 seconds flat, without even have to skill up dancer magic lol. Ours however is severely tied to summon magic which does not exactly skilling up as fast as it should be.

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I think that you'll find that SMN, COR and now DNC have got BRD's AOE movement speed, AKA Mazurka.

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Originally Posted by Mizuharu

This guy is always butt hurt over every thing and will pull out whatever he can to try to get an edge on someone. Just ignore him Karbuncle.

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It sounds to me like you're the one who's butthurt.

It was a friendly josh. You might not realize this, but Karbuncle and I actually get along rather well. There's really no good reason to be so rude, especially when you weren't involved in the conversation.

I already knew full well the origins of his sig and the "realer summoner" phrase.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Summoner is not a neglected job. The job has seen tons of changes and updates over the years- probably more than most jobs. It's getting its fair share of attention. Whether that attention is producing the desired results is a matter of opinion, but it's laughable at best to argue that it's "neglected."

the word "neglected" implies that they have been completely ignoring it and making no changes, which really isn't true at all.

If it was so awful it wouldn't be so instrumental in certain events e.g. walk of echoes where PD isn't even why it's there. Exaggerating will not get the job improvements. Also, if it was really so "awful", you wouldn't be playing it (and calling yourself the "realer summoner").

The only problem that SMN truly has that is directly about SMN is the BP timer. it is capped at such a ridiculously high level at a time when the game is at its spammiest. There are plenty of useful ward effects available.

SMN has its issues, but it's not "awful."

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Al, you can't reason with these people. Just try to make your points through the eyes of an angry and emotional summoner. You'll probably get further.

we want the same avatars as in final fantasy 10 :~ and I don't like Alhanelem because he has been pissing in the thread I made also
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ith-the-idea-A

By looking at this anyone can see that theirs something wrong. Please explain to us why SE has not yet added any job abilities when comparing them to the rest of the jobs.

Nice we got Mana Cede at 87 lol some time i feel like saying something :~ (guess there no freedom of speech here lol)

White Mage: Healing at lvl 99 >> 424
Black Mage: Elemental Magic at lvl 99 >> 424
Red Mage: Enfeebling Magic at lvl 99 >> 424
Blue mage: Blue Magic at lvl >> 424
Dark Knight: Dark Magic at lvl 99 >> 417
Ninja: Ninjutsu at lvl 99 >> 417

Is S good or is S bad? (I know S usually means good but bst's rating throws me off, if you're talking about mobs above 100)

Why would you say smn's pet disposability is B? In fact, it's A.

In the case of endurance, it's only fair to factor a cost that's usually not negligible (for many players) to keep that pet up, and it still is likely to die.

In Dynamis, for instance, Faithful Falcorr takes magic better than an Aegis PLD (seen it, lol) but only when he noticeably outlevels the target. Put him against even decent challenge and his magic resists floor. The reason for this isn't really intentional, just that pets are treated as NPCs and NPC's damage taken and damage calculations have a lot more to do with levels than a player's. For instance, A great bst would probably still lose his falcorr, or gooey to Pil, especially if he's targeting the pet.

But yeah, hastega is the only buff I think that summons can do that rdm/sch, or sch/rdm (whm/sch of course can't do phalanx), can't. Some love for the job would be nice.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

But yeah, hastega is the only buff I think that summons can do that rdm/sch, or sch/rdm (whm/sch of course can't do phalanx), can't. Some love for the job would be nice.

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Lightning Armor
Frost Armor
Inferno Howl (much stronger than accessioned enfire)
Shining Ruby
Earthen Armor
Ecliptic Growl
Ecliptic Howl
Dream Shroud
Fleet Wind

But yeah, apart from these 9, Hastega is the only one.

Actually, most of those can in fact effrectively be done with other jobs in the mix, either as main or sub. Combinations with BRD, SCH, or DNC in there can give similar if not the same effects.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

Actually, most of those can in fact effrectively be done with other jobs in the mix, either as main or sub. Combinations with BRD, SCH, or DNC in there can give similar if not the same effects.

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Well, Omnys did specify SCH/RDM and RDM/SCH... I think we're all aware that Bard, Corsair, and Geomancer get most (all?) of the rest of those between them.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Lightning Armor
Frost Armor

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Actually, SCH and RDM/SCH (even BLM/SCH) can do these, too. They're a little weird, though. They have to be done in Dark Arts with Manifestation. Also, the log won't show your team mates get the buff, nor will the animation show. All the same, your party will all suddenly have spikes.

edit: beaten, by hours.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Lightning Armor
Frost Armor
Inferno Howl (much stronger than accessioned enfire)
Shining Ruby
Earthen Armor
Ecliptic Growl
Ecliptic Howl
Dream Shroud
Fleet Wind

But yeah, apart from these 9, Hastega is the only one.

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SCH can do aoe shock spikes with manifestation believe it or not and I think Ice Spikes. Manifestation, not accession.

Otherwise, you're right, sorry.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

Actually, most of those can in fact effectively be done with other jobs in the mix, either as main or sub. Combinations with BRD, SCH, or DNC in there can give similar if not the same effects.

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Correct, but the effects stack with the SMN variant of the buff, unlike hastega/noctoshield/aerial armor/earthen ward.

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Originally Posted by Mokeil

Well, Omnys did specify SCH/RDM and RDM/SCH... I think we're all aware that Bard, Corsair, and Geomancer get most (all?) of the rest of those between them.

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I never even thought about Geo. I haven't played the job, and not been in a party with enough Geos (certainly who have all the spells) to have a clue what buffs they have, and whether or not they stack with SMN wards.

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Originally Posted by Mokeil

Actually, SCH and RDM/SCH (even BLM/SCH) can do these, too. They're a little weird, though. They have to be done in Dark Arts with Manifestation. Also, the log won't show your team mates get the buff, nor will the animation show. All the same, your party will all suddenly have spikes.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

SCH can do aoe shock spikes with manifestation believe it or not and I think Ice Spikes. Manifestation, not accession.

Otherwise, you're right, sorry.

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Wow, I did not know that o.0 I remember being particularly annoyed that I couldn't AOE spikes on SCH when I tried it, but I guess I never tried manifestation... mainly due to the fact that it was obviously wrong? Or so I thought lol.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

I never even thought about Geo. I haven't played the job, and not been in a party with enough Geos (certainly who have all the spells) to have a clue what buffs they have, and whether or not they stack with SMN wards.

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I know they've at least got buffs for Attack, Accuracy, and Evasion, as well as a range of spells for stat-ups. Theirs are more potent than ours, but are limited to two effects only as a trade off. I can't say whether they stack with Wards or not, either. That price tag on spells has put a lot of people off on leveling it.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Wow, I did not know that o.0 I remember being particularly annoyed that I couldn't AOE spikes on SCH when I tried it, but I guess I never tried manifestation... mainly due to the fact that it was obviously wrong? Or so I thought lol.

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I was goofing off in Abyssea once, and in a moment of silliness I said, "Maybe they count as some sort of weird, inverted Enfeebling Spell!" Even so, because of the no-log/no-animation bug, I probably wouldn't have realized it worked if it wasn't for the fact that one of my party members that day was also a room-mate.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

Actually, most of those can in fact effrectively be done with other jobs in the mix, either as main or sub. Combinations with BRD, SCH, or DNC in there can give similar if not the same effects.

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All this says is we have variety in the jobs we can play to get the same effects. Those other jobs aren't necessarily better or worse for the same purposes. Also, as others have mentioned, some of these effects stack with their counterparts on other jobs (especially GEO and the accuracy / attack up/down effects; ifrit's attack buff is Warcry, which will stack with attack bonus)

huh? The conversation was dancing around issues that do/don't make SMN more appealing for events. The point that was trying to be made is that SMN has all these other buffs, as if that would be enough reason to invite them over other options. My point is that there are other jobs that can do the same thing. Those jobs are also in demand for the other contributions they can make beyond just those particular buffs.

That's the problem...when given the choice between SMN and these other jobs that can do the same thing in addition to a host of other benefits, SMN tends to loose out because they'd rather also have the additional benefits offered by those other jobs. So, unless there is a specific strategy calling for a SMN (ie: PD, or AOE enfire, or something else very specific like that), SMN gets a lot of neglect from the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Snowflake buffs

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While some of what you listed are kinda unique, most of them... the problem Isn't really the ... effects themselves... so much as the Effect potency. All of these debuffs, while unique, are something most Tier II BRD songs are more powerful than.

Regardless of how these stack with other buffs, No ones going "Quick guys, drop for SMN Dream Shroud Rotations!". I.E The buffs suck, their potency isn't worth wasting a slot on them, and overall the entirety of the job is lack luster. I Can barely find a BP Worth using even in Delve, In the mage party, what do i have for WHM's and such? They aren't getting hit cause our DD ares good, so ShockSpikes/IceSpikes/Earthern Armor/phalanx/etc is useless, they don't nuke so Dream Shroud is meh, They don't melee, there goes Enfire/Thunder, They can haste themselves... so on, so forth... For what SMN is and its current role in endgame, Its buffs are little more than scenery.

You can pick any number of unrealistic and unideal vacuum situations that one of these buffs might kinda be useful in, But no ones repping a BRD, WHM, or Delve/RME-DD for a 40DMG/hit Enfire or mediocre buffs other jobs can do better.

no matter how many unnappealingly weak and pathetic 'unique' buffs we have, they're all so low in potency that its just not worth the wasted slot on a SMN, especially considering they aren't really good for jack these days, as their dmg output is hideous. (IDK Why SE decided to add Alternator now but not the BST/SMN/DRG Adjustment items... Guess they were an afterthought? Or Alternator was the Beta)

Edit: oh and PS, Babeke, Not implying that what I'm arguing is against your logic, these are just simple truths of the job.

Problem with SMN is so many of our buffs were designed for under 75 use, and even then, many of them were unlocked in the 50's -60s range (see Fenrir) so at 75 they were not relevant, let alone 99.

Only summoner buff that have true value in endgame areas is Earthen Armor, one of the few post level cap bloodpact wards added with real value in a PT/end game setting. There's value to it since it greatly outmatches Bard's Scherzo and also stacks with it. A tank with Scherzo and Earthen Armor has significantly improved survibability.

We really need a suite of 90+ BP, wards (that aren't glorified spikes or enspells) & rages for the post level cap increase SMN. To be 99 and still using Aerial Armor and Whispering Wind is a bit of a joke.

Tidal Roar and Diamond Storm are still very useful in Delve.

-25 eva can be the difference between capping acc or not, and -25% attack is not to be sniffed at, especially since you almost always want to have dia on the mob to kill it faster, rather than bio to not kill you.

Obviously there are other ways to get these same buffs, but I don't often see a DRG/BLU/THF in Delve. Though nor do I often see a SMN to be honest.

I should probably add that Shock Squall is also useful. I also concur that the post 75 wards generally have uses that aren't super niche, even if it is often not MP efficient and creates too much lag time time when dealing with a single mob. Delves and the longer kill cycle makes these somewhat more useful again.

Duration however is a problem, especially with Geo auras now being able to apply debuffs and Geos aren't time limited to 45 sec BP timers so they can potentially be doing a lot more in between.