adieu FFXIV people

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Originally Posted by Elphy

Like I said before, no need to defend any other game to these ppl, they cant see past ffxi and they will hate a game they have never played just because they are butt hurt that after 10 yrs ffxi isnt getting se's full attn

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Couldn't have put it better myself! I've defended FFXIV enough, obviously some people are so narrow minded that they can't see past 1 game, as unhealthy as that may be.

The point keeps being raised that the only thing SE is doing by trying to revive FFXIV is saving face. That's narrow to me. It might be part of the reason, but I also know they're people who like games, like newness, like change, like progression and like cutting edge. It's obvious from the history of the series.

If I were a developer at SE instead of software development manager at another business, I would dread being stuck on FFXI. As a person in the computer industry, the thought of spending my career on a ten year old title that looks like garbage and is doing nothing new for the industry would feel like a prison sentence, or at least a grunt job left for interns.

As a developer, I would push XIV regardless of XI profits and corporate image because it's exciting, new and different. There are good business reasons for doing so with the right balance. At the company I manage, I could get away with just maintaining current working systems for years, as long as all the people I employ were happy to continue doing that. The problem is they aren't. If I wasn't offering them ways to grow and contribute to a quickly evolving industry, many of the best would quit and go somewhere that did. I don't know how that attitude translates in Japan but it's a big issue in the companies I've hired for in the US.

It's also incredibly difficult to hire the best and brightest newcomers if all I focus on in the interview is maintaining legacy systems. I can't imagine how much new programmer blood SE would be able to attract if the only MMO developer position they could offer was for FFXI. Could they pour it all into XI and make that new and exciting? Somewhat, but that would never be as enticing as creating a whole new world.

So why not scrap XIV and just offer the promise to their staff of working on XV or anything else new? I'm sure that's where the saving face comes in. It would also be incredibly attractive to me as a developer to rescue a failure because it would show I was better than the people who made it suck. There's probably also the fact that a lot of the design was already there, even if the systems had to change.

My point is that SE has more to think about than immediate corporate image and FFXI fans. I have no idea how many people will like FFXIV, or if I will. But I know that SE has a history of providing new RPG experiences, not just repeating the same formula, and that to employ people to continue that they probably can't keep XI as their only MMO forever.

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Originally Posted by Jaall

You're wrong because very few people had even heard of FFXI and FFXIV in comparison to other MMO's and so the image is very easily rebuilt.

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Assumption. Regardless of how many people know the FF franchise (and you know as well as I do it's a lot), there was a lot of bad press about XIV when it was released. Even people not interested in FF but interested in MMORPGs will know that from various news sites they visit, magazines they read or people they talk to. The same will not be true for the success of the game, unless it's truly groundbreaking. Of course there's a chance of that, but what chance do you give it? My estimate is rather low, judging by what I've seen so far.

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Originally Posted by Jaall

Secondly they haven't cut any of the profits from FFXI, because guess what, you're still paying them.

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I am not their profits. The thousands of people who have quit out of boredom because no relevant content was released in two years, they are not paying SE anymore, and they were their profits. You call it stable, despite two server merges and still less than half of the average online numbers than it was before? The online numbers are now lower than when they were when the servers were merged, meaning the game has lost over half its playerbase since then. Of course that's just approximations and we don't have the exact numbers, but it's bad enough that it's even in that area.

How can you possibly justify that? Do you think it was just coincidence it maintained a somewhat constant playerbase for ten years and the decline had nothing to do with the lack of updates for about two years?

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Originally Posted by Jaall

The best business plan would be to divert resources to the potential best product for as long as FFXI is making a steady income, which it is.

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Even if that was the case, FFXI is still their best potential income. You attribute repairing FFXIV the same value as keeping FFXI intact, and again, that's pure assumption on your part. Neither of us can prove it entirely, but at least I have arguments supporting my claim, which I explained above. What do you have to support yours? Why do you think FFXIV is their best potential income? Do you think everyone quitting XI is going to XIV?

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Originally Posted by Jaall

You have just stated that no matter how FFXIV is, you will never leave FFXI, so you're playing into their hands.

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Wrong, I did not say that. I said I will never play it, it doesn't mean that I will not leave FFXI, as many others have done before me. I actually plan to do that if The Elder Scrolls Online is as good as it sounds at this point and SoA doesn't live up to the hype. However, unlike you, I will actually wait until the game is released to pass judgment, and not declare it the best thing since sliced bread upon release of the beta.

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Originally Posted by Jaall

Oh and by the way... I have run a company so I know exactly what it's like, and also done a master degree course in 3D animation which is very closely related to games design, in fact I actually worked along side game coders in a lot of my assignments.

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Disregarding that I don't believe you, I just said that doesn't matter at all:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

So I assume you understand them better than me, because you have made a game and are running a business?

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This time without the sarcasm: your experience means shit. I don't believe a tobacco salesman what he says about tobacco, regardless of how rich his company is. Unless he actually presents evidence and brings a good argument, his words mean very little to me. Similarily, your words of wisdom will carry very little weight with me, unless, you know, there is actual wisdom in them. So far, all I've seen is fandom.

(Also, 3D animation is related game design like watching porn is to having sex.)

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Originally Posted by Elphy

They have NO right to work on repairing their image that ffxiv v1 soiled. They have NO right to do ANYTHING outside of ffxi EVER

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They have the right, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a stupid decision. I'm not saying they couldn't have done it. I'm saying they shouldn't have done it.

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Originally Posted by Elphy

Like I said before, no need to defend any other game to these ppl, they cant see past ffxi and they will hate a game they have never played just because they are butt hurt that after 10 yrs ffxi isnt getting se's full attn

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I have actually played it, I've participated actively in the alpha, beta and still hung on to it until after it was released. I was actually looking forward to it, because I don't cling to the past because I'm too afraid to move on, and I did see its potential. It had a depth that was typical of a FF game, but very little content to explore it, and a bad interface to present it.

SE were the ones who crushed my hopes in the first place, and made me go back to XI. Unlike them, I was able to accept that defeat and did move on, which was back to XI. And when I saw that they were prepared to let their good game rot to save the freakshow they created, it naturally made me hate the game for it.

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Originally Posted by Jaall

I've defended FFXIV enough, obviously some people are so narrow minded that they can't see past 1 game, as unhealthy as that may be.

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As if to make my point, you say that you've defended a game that's not even released yet, barely out of the alpha (and some people say too soon). How can you possibly justify that, aside from fandom?

And stop projecting, will you. Just because I don't like the same game you do, it doesn't mean I'm only interested only in FFXI. I can give you list of games I've played in the last two months alone that are all better than every single impression XIV has ever left on me.

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Originally Posted by Merton9999

The point keeps being raised that the only thing SE is doing by trying to revive FFXIV is saving face. That's narrow to me. It might be part of the reason, but I also know they're people who like games, like newness, like change, like progression and like cutting edge. It's obvious from the history of the series.

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While I agree with pretty much everything of your post, this I find arguable. I would have agreed with you just a few years ago, but their latest releases (not just XIV) have made me wonder. It seems they like their image more than their games themselves. For example, they always wanna do something new. Sounds good on paper. The problem is, not always is new better than old, like the omission of an auction house from XIV. They adjusted it later to offer searchable wards, which was a great idea, but it was late and seemed to be an experiment on the expense of the player, rather than them. As a developer myself, I could never justify that. And there have been many similar examples from previous FF games as well.

Anyway, my response to the rest of your post is basically encapsulated in it as well:

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Originally Posted by Merton9999

So why not scrap XIV and just offer the promise to their staff of working on XV or anything else new? I'm sure that's where the saving face comes in.

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That is most certainly the case. And I think that's what they should have done. You mentioned that some of the systems were already there, but I'm not sure how well that applies, seeing how the game was basically remade from scratch. From the graphical engines and core combat mechanics to the landscape and character design. I'm not sure if they really had much to build on. Of course that's speculation, but even if there was, there are advantages to a new game as well, namely it would relieve a big part of the burden that comes with the name of FFXIV, which was irreparably stained.

And speaking of their "only MMO", they are also releasing Dragon Quest X soon, and I'm quite certain that won't be their last either. Progress is not bad, but FFXIV is hardly progress, and what of it is, could have been handled better.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Anyway, my response to the rest of your post is basically encapsulated in it as well:


That is most certainly the case. And I think that's what they should have done. You mentioned that some of the systems were already there, but I'm not sure how well that applies, seeing how the game was basically remade from scratch. From the graphical engines and core combat mechanics to the landscape and character design. I'm not sure if they really had much to build on. Of course that's speculation, but even if there was, there are advantages to a new game as well, namely it would relieve a big part of the burden that comes with the name of FFXIV, which was irreparably stained.

And speaking of their "only MMO", they are also releasing Dragon Quest X soon, and I'm quite certain that won't be their last either. Progress is not bad, but FFXIV is hardly progress, and what of it is, could have been handled better.

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I get what you're saying - go ahead and make a spanking new MMO to progress the genre, just don't slap the XIV name on it because of its image. That's what I think is kind of interesting though. If they can pull off a turnaround, that less safe road will be a more memorable trip to me than a great FFXVI online. It may not end up being the best business decision, but I don't think that's what I've always liked about Square stuff.

Ten years from now I'll have fonder memories while I play a great game titled XIV that inspired so much heated commentary before it finally took off than I would be playing one called XVI and thinking "remember that XIV one that sucked."

I can't even be bothered to read your mammoth of a post, I've made my point that some people will just be stubborn and won't regard anything as good because its not a remake of your beloved FFXI. Nobodies wrong in opinion I guess but I do feel very very sorry for you because one day whether you like it or not FFXI will die, and your hopes at the moment are that FFXIV dies before it (which as we all know is fairly unlikely). Who are you to tell SE how to run their business? They are successful no matter how you dress it up to be bad. Like all developers they produce bad games, happens. They have tried their hardest to improve it and if you can't accept that then there's no helping you. I've said my bit, there's no pleasing you, you're just determined to put down everything because your 10+ year old game has lost some (not all) support which would have happened anyway. I wish you the best... You'll need it.

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Originally Posted by Elphy

Don't forget SE one and ONLY game is ffxi, and they have absolutely no right to work on other games. They have no right to take the money they make from one game and put it into another.

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Its not so much that they can not take the money made from FFXI and put into other games, more that we should get better service than we do. Its a game in beta they are remaking because they screwed up the original, and it gets more resources by far than the game which has been going for years with players still coming and going. The game is not dead, its active, its out, it should be getting more resources thrown at it so the game is better, instead most of what we see is redone content, variations on old content, and excuses about how our updates are pushed back because of having to few people to work on it. I don't think anyone here is saying to let FFXIV die since they put the work they have into it right now, but if anything we should have more people working on this game, it is not right or fair in any way to take the money they make from this game and throw 90% of it at a different game while we suffer from worse service thanks to it.

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Originally Posted by Merton9999

I get what you're saying - go ahead and make a spanking new MMO to progress the genre, just don't slap the XIV name on it because of its image. That's what I think is kind of interesting though. If they can pull off a turnaround, that less safe road will be a more memorable trip to me than a great FFXVI online. It may not end up being the best business decision, but I don't think tat's what I've always liked about Square stuff.

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Up until recently I never even knew much about their business decisions, because there didn't seem to be any. Almost everything they've released until a few years ago was received with high or even near universal critical acclaim. When everything is going well, you generally do not need to worry about the business, you just keep on making good games. But when things get bad, that's when you need to stop and reflect. Business decisions do not only affect the company. Bad business, after all, means the customers were not satisfied.

If you enjoy a changing game more than a new one, I can't really argue with that, but I don't feel the same way. I don't feel that close to SE to make their journey my own, I prefer to restrict my journey to within one game, rather than tie it to the game's conception and creation. (And regardless, that does not excuse what they did to this game in the process. They should never have neglected XI the way they did, but because they kept actively working and maintaining XIV, while remaking it completely, almost equals working on two different games.)

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Originally Posted by Merton9999

Ten years from now I'll have fonder memories while I play a great game titled XIV that inspired so much heated commentary before it finally took off than I would be playing one called XVI and thinking "remember that XIV one that sucked."

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But see, that's the thing, I'll still remember how XIV sucked. I also still remember what sucked about XI at first, it's not like they can erase the past with what they do. Sure, you may be able to look past it and think about how much it improved since then, but I'd be just as pleased with a new journey presented to me, without having bad memories attached.

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Originally Posted by Jaall

I can't even be bothered to read your mammoth of a post, I've made my point that some people will just be stubborn and won't regard anything as good because its not a remake of your beloved FFXI.

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Then why are you still talking to me? If you just don't wanna read my reply, but keep insulting me, you're that kid who puts their fingers in their ears and sings aloud, pretending not to hear any criticism. Shows just how seriously one should take your opinion.

Everything you said is bullshit, and I already said why. I do not cling to FFXI, I've mentioned that I'd welcome a better alternative. Neither have I ever said that FFXIV will not be good, I said specifically that I do not care how good it is and that its quality is not the reason why I hate it. Before you want to reply in the future, read what's being said, and if you are unable to do that, just stay out of the discussion.

Playing both at the moment it is possible to play both at the same time lol

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

I think the topic was made more or less because people will choose to leave FFXI for FFXIV based on the beta most likely. If the beta does not live up to their expectations, they may very well call it quits on FFXIV and just keep going with FFXI, on the other hand if the beta is amazing, they will likely plan to say goodbye to FFXI when the release for FFXIV approaches. I doubt people would actually leave the game for a beta, as it has been said in this thread a few times, however if the beta is good, I can easily see people getting ready to pack their virtual bags in preparation for FFXIV once they see how good the beta is.

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Ahh indeed well then as far as that goes the beta is quite enjoyable and only getting better but if population decreases they will just do a server merge :D

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Originally Posted by Mulch

Playing both at the moment it is possible to play both at the same time lol

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If you call AFK'ing in a book burn "playing," then sure. Otherwise, Dynamis currency won't farm itself.

Lol I don't think they meant literally! You can play FFXI for an hour and FFXIV for an hour, both games seem to have activities that are suitable for the casual player, and of course if you have more time then win-win really! you shouldn't ever be limited to only one game and if you are it's kinda your own doing.