[dev1135] Beastmaster 2-Hour Ability Comments After Testing.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

So they're changing Reraise to ..................... Stoneskin. fun!

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you better put some [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] tags around that post.

SE will take you literally and baransu the ability to match your 'suggestion'

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Originally Posted by Xilk

you better put some [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] tags around that post.

SE will take you literally and baransu the ability to match your 'suggestion'

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Except its not sarcasm, its straight from the JP dev tracker.

I like how stoneskin is replacing reraise instead of being added to it. I mean, not that I'd be any more likely to use it, but I mean come on, at least move it a half step closer to being a worthy 2hr instead of just making it unworthy for a completely different reason.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

So they're changing Reraise to ..................... Stoneskin. fun!

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Originally Posted by Xilk

you better put some [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] tags around that post.

SE will take you literally and baransu the ability to match your 'suggestion'

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Originally Posted by Mnejing

Except its not sarcasm, its straight from the JP dev tracker.

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Like Mnejing said, it has been stated by a Japanese Dev and has yet to be put up by the English Devs. Link is bellow to the post.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...464#post351464

From what I got from my "lol translate" (on Google Translate) it goes on to say that they will replace reraise with Stoneskin and that the amount of Stoneskin provided with vary biased on how strong your pet is. Remember, since this is a translation it may not be 100% accurate.

With that in mind, it seems they are really getting into the idea of Beastmasters eating their pets with this new 2-hour. Different pets will give different variants of Stoneskin biased on what pet you eat... just like food gives different effects depending which food you eat even if its only a slight difference.

From what I understand from the translation this Stoneskin doesn't help Beastmaster any more then the Reraise effect because it doesn't change the scenario we would use it in. From the looks of it the Japanese players aren't fond of this either.

Lets hope the English post comes out soon so we can get a better grasp of just what this does.

If they really want us to lose a pet for a 2hr why not just make it explode? Sure I still probably wouldn't use it, but it would be more useful and the novelty of it would be entertaining once or twice.

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Originally Posted by Vandheer

Like Mnejing said, it has been stated by a Japanese Dev and has yet to be put up by the English Devs. Link is bellow to the post.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...464#post351464

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Thanks for the link. Wow, I really should check the Japanese announcements more often. That was shocking... I REALLY thought it was a bad joke... I thought Hatcher was just throwing out the most useless alternative he could think of..

Wow. Google did fair job of translating also.
I'll finish it for you:

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獣使い
HP回復、状態異常回復はそのままで、リレイズの効果→ストンスキンに変更します。
ストンスキンの効果量は呼び出したペットにより変化します。
獣使いの2Hアビリティは、使い魔がペットの攻撃面の底上げなのに対し、マスターの防御面を大幅に引き上げるという方向性で考えています。

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Beastmaster
HP Restoration and status ailment restoration will remain unchanged; Reraise effect will be changed to stoneskin effect.
Stoneskin effectiveness will vary depending on called pet.
The idea forming beastmaster's new 2H ability is, in contrast to how familiar increase the pet's attack power, to increase the master's defense power.


Now this last line in the makes me a bit irritated for a different reason. That is, I've done a fair bit of testing on bst and I have not found how it increases pets attack power save for the new haste boost on the monster trousers +2. grrr... I think I have the basework though, so I might go do another test w/ familiar up to find out if it actually does affect pet's attack.

AS far as stoneskin goes... Well, it seems silly. It IS silly. but a 5k stoneskin (equal to pet hp) would actually be much more worthwhile and useful than the re-raise effect.

IF it were a rinky-dink stoneskin below 1k it would be pathetic and completely not worth it.

IF its less than the pet's max hp, its a rip-off. The pet pretty much already IS my stoneskin. Its the wall of damage between me and whatever I'm fighting. IF i sacrifice that wall for something less... its a net loss.

I'm glad they shared the idea behind it also. It does kinda have a contrast and balance. That is, familiar boosting pet attack vs cannibalize boosting master defense. attack balanced against defense, pet balanced against master... there is an elegance about it, design-wise... but it also makes me feel they approached it from the wrong direction.

They came from a top-down approach rather than a practical approach of what the job could use. It doesn't surprise me that developers wouldn't play their game enough to have a good practical approach. (I do work for a co. that has a software product which is developed. Plenty of users know alot more than devs about what would be useful).

Anyway. If you want balance... familiar improves pet attack. Let cannibalize improve master attack.
We are happy w/ the defense in the pet itself.
IF you want to buff master defense, the killer effects augment from gausape +2 is they coolest way to go. Make it related to a beastmaster's inherent killer effect and relationship to the beasts.
A supped up killer effect would be very cool.

K guys heres the official translation of the 2-hour tweek that was found in the Japanese threads. Xilk's translation was pretty spot on so props to Xilk.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings!

The Development Team has returned from their summer break and has started preparing their responses in regards to all the feedback we have been receiving on the new 2-hour abilities.

To start off, I like to first share some changes that are being planned.

• Beastmaster
  We will be keeping the HP recovery and status ailment recovery as is, but we will be changing the reraise effect to a stoneskin effect. The strength of the stoneskin effect will vary depending on the pet. The idea is that Familiar will increase the pet’s offensive capabilities, while the new 2-hour ability will enhance the master’s defensive capability.

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I am also happy they have shared with us their thinking for this 2-hour but the execution, in my opinion, is poor. When they get this out on the Test server if someone could test it for us and post results that would be great because the Stoneskin can vary very much.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Finally, I have one request when submitting feedback. We have been seeing comments stating that “we don’t want this” and “totally remake it.” Your feedback is something we wish to utilize in our efforts to make the game better, so instead please try to be as specific as you can with how you’d like it aspects to change.

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Above Camate requests for us to be more specific with what we want this 2-hour to be. I would like to strongly urge everyone to use this thread to share your ideas for creating a 2-hour we would all approve off. To do this lets just spitball ideas and get the ball rolling and use likes to show the ideas we like best.

Lets fix this people. :)

A special Reraise will be nice.
i.e. A Reraise with no weakness and no EXP loss.

Alternatively, a Stoneskin that absorbs the Pet's HP.
Pet's Max HP. Not Pet's current HP when 2 Hour is used.

Or just add the dev's proposed Stoneskin to the dev's originally proposed Reraise. Rather than make it just one or the other.

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Originally Posted by Vandheer

Above Camate requests for us to be more specific with what we want this 2-hour to be. I would like to strongly urge everyone to use this thread to share your ideas for creating a 2-hour we would all approve off. To do this lets just spitball ideas and get the ball rolling and use likes to show the ideas we like best.

Lets fix this people. :)

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Please read....well...every post/thread/comment relating to this two hour. All of the responses say it sucks, but at least half of the responses have alternatives. It is true that negativity stands out more, but we aren't not giving some constructive criticism, up to and including replacing the dev team.

If you got equal stoneskin to the pets HP it wouldn't be too bad. Getting a 3k stoneskin could help you get away. Now if they would add fast run walk boots for bst.

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Originally Posted by xbobx

If you got equal stoneskin to the pets HP it wouldn't be too bad. Getting a 3k stoneskin could help you get away. Now if they would add fast run walk boots for bst.

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Fast Run walk boots?

There is already an item with Movement Speed +12 for BST.

OH, skadi. forgot about those, something I will never get because too much of a pain.

I would like to thank SE for providing me with my daily "Laughes". Thank you.

Now that being said, so the same premise is still wrong, what the heck is eating our pet going to get us? Are they willing to give us a ~5k Stoneskin (HP of falcorr). At best, all this will just be an 'old shit' moment saver that has a very limited use. Guess it is at least better than a RR afterall.

I like someone's else idea up there where this 2hr ability would just BLOW UP like NIN's 2hr right now and the dmg done will be based on the current pet's HP. Definitely can see that as being a useful strategy where you use Run Wild on your pet and let it hammer down the mob you fighting for 4.5min, then pop a reward to recap its HP, pop this 2hr follow by a new call pet. I can see that being a more useful strategy against some NMs. Heck, if they want to be real creative, they can even make the BLOWN UP dmg elemental damage based on the pet's family. That will even give us more reasons to use other pet types (okay my inventory will hate this). But at least that will give us some interesting usage scenario and expand our play strategy.

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Originally Posted by xbobx

OH, skadi. forgot about those, something I will never get because too much of a pain.

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skadi are not that hard to get now. you just need 3x ppl to get in, then you can solo it. they are well worth it.

See it's hard to offer constructive criticism and advice when I think the entire premise is flawed. I don't want an ability to kill my pet. I want something that will enhance my ability to fight along side it. I'm not much of a theory crafter, so I'm not sure what I can offer at the moment as an alternative, but I think approaching the ability from that angle is a start.

How about a 2 ton CC drops from the sky and squashes the mob for x amount of damage, while fireworks emit from his baskets.

This new 2 hours is gone from being bad to ridiculously bad.... way to become dumb and dumber, seriously what they have been smoking over there at the office. The whole idea of beastmaster is to have the jug pets as the extension of their DD capabilities, the 2 hours should focus on the PET, look at the new ones for summoner and puppetmaster, both are highlighting their pets DD abilities.

It's also hardly for them to really say familiar was designed with our pet's offensive capabilities in mind. I mean, yes, it does give the pet haste, but that is only if you put on your augmented relic pants +2. Without those what is familiar? An HP boost. So what we have is essentially a lackluster defensive 2hr that was modified into a "decent" offensive 2hr through the use of gear. So I'm very sorry, I think the rationality on the difference between the two 2hrs is quite faulty. In lacking expectancy of getting a better 2hr, I at least expect a better explanation.

Hello Beastmasters,

Thank you for all of your feedback. As you have heard, we updated the new BST 2 hour ability:

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Originally Posted by Camate

Beastmaster
We will be keeping the HP recovery and status ailment recovery as is, but we will be changing the reraise effect to a stoneskin effect. The strength of the stoneskin effect will vary depending on the pet. The idea is that Familiar will increase the pet’s offensive capabilities, while the new 2-hour ability will enhance the master’s defensive capability.

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We received a bit more information regarding the details of this update:
The potency varies depending on the pet but the amount of damage the Stoneskin can absorb will be more than the actual spell.

As for why this ability cannot be used on charmed pets is directly related to its mechanics. Since the effect variation is dependent on the pet, it is limited to only jug pets.

We're still collecting all your feedback regarding all these new abilities so please let us know your thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

We received a bit more information regarding the details of this update:
The potency varies depending on the pet but the amount of damage the Stoneskin can absorb will be more than the actual spell.

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Hopefully its like 10,000 HP.

The 2hr is bad. It will be never used in any situation ever. If there is a situation in which you'd even consider using this 2hr more likely than not you'd have already used the old 2hr before hand in an attempt to prevent the situation you might use the new 2hr.

What is the developer's problem with BST? What angle are they viewing the job? Do they even understand the job's current state in the game?

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Hopefully its like 10,000 HP.

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Even if it gave twice that, the 2hr would still be useless.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hello Beastmasters,

Thank you for all of your feedback. As you have heard, we nerfed the new BST 2 hour ability:



We received a bit more information regarding the details of this update:
The potency varies depending on the pet but the amount of damage the Stoneskin can absorb will be more than the actual spell.

As for why this ability cannot be used on charmed pets is directly related to its mechanics. Since the effect variation is dependent on the pet, it is limited to only jug pets.

We're still collecting all your feedback regarding all these new abilities so please let us know your thoughts.

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I fixed your post, you can thank me later.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hello Beastmasters,

Thank you for all of your feedback. As you have heard, we updated the new BST 2 hour ability:



We received a bit more information regarding the details of this update:
The potency varies depending on the pet but the amount of damage the Stoneskin can absorb will be more than the actual spell.

As for why this ability cannot be used on charmed pets is directly related to its mechanics. Since the effect variation is dependent on the pet, it is limited to only jug pets.

We're still collecting all your feedback regarding all these new abilities so please let us know your thoughts.

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I'd still like an explanation on why this 2hr comes at a cost. The ability by itself is very lackluster, made even worse by the fact that we have to sacrifice a pet for it. Maybe, just maybe if you added an effect to this similar to the rng and nin 2hr that negated the loss of the next jug used, well, ok I still probably wouldn't use it, but it would be an improvement.

One thing the Dev's don't seem to understand is that a BST's pet is integral to the job. Why would BST want to kill their pet in an attempt to "play defensively" when you need your pet to "play defensively"? I'm not a BST but I'm pretty sure that's how it goes.

If you make it so that the stoneskin effect is simply the amount of HP the pet currently has, it should be easy to make it work for charmed pets as well. Using this on a local, charmed pet then pulling out their own jug pet would make it safer for bsts to melee alongside their pets on mobs with nasty aoe's.

I wonder how long the effect will persist without being broken by damage.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hello Beastmasters,

Thank you for all of your feedback. As you have heard, we updated the new BST 2 hour ability:



We received a bit more information regarding the details of this update:
The potency varies depending on the pet but the amount of damage the Stoneskin can absorb will be more than the actual spell.

As for why this ability cannot be used on charmed pets is directly related to its mechanics. Since the effect variation is dependent on the pet, it is limited to only jug pets.

We're still collecting all your feedback regarding all these new abilities so please let us know your thoughts.

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Hello Okipuit,

Would it be possible for the devs or community reps to present to us a scenario where this 2 hour would be useful? I think that is where we are struggling. It seems that if an enemy is strong enough to kill one of our formidable jug pets, it will slice through a stoneskin effect in 1 or 2 hits.

aye for a good number of these new "2hrs" they would probably answer a lot of questions "what the hell are they envisioning?" "why should we use this over the original?" if they gave us plausible scenarios in which we would use New over Old 2 hr

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Hopefully its like 10,000 HP.

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id have to agree since falcor has like 4k HP.... and you can just dump 100% of your hate on him every 30 secs... almost no reason to ever use this 2hr....

2hr fix: give BST the ability to call two simultaneous pets at once, the second pet will be completely random and last for five minutes. random chance of getting a HNM mob like Behemoth.

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Originally Posted by larrymc

Hello Okipuit,

Would it be possible for the devs or community reps to present to us a scenario where this 2 hour would be useful? I think that is where we are struggling. It seems that if an enemy is strong enough to kill one of our formidable jug pets, it will slice through a stoneskin effect in 1 or 2 hits.

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Careful what you wish for. Remember when the bst community asked for a buff on Cloudsplitter and they responded with a test they ran while on war with optimal gear, restraint,, temp items, top atmas and basically everything else you could stack on and said "After our tests we found it sufficiently powerful"

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Hopefully its like 10,000 HP.

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Then it would basically be like Invincible... but that it would nullify magic damage as well. And PLDs get enough shit as it is.

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Originally Posted by Rekin

Even if it gave twice that, the 2hr would still be useless.

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I agree, but I think we all know that it's going to be like 1,000. /sigh SE

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Then it would basically be like Invincible...

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Even if it was 50,000, I doubt it would make people bring beastmaster to anything that they bring paladin for now.

You know I actually like a suggestion one person had asked for was for a stronger pet to be able to be called as the 2hr that lasts for about 5 minutes. That seems more useful then eating your pet for stats and now stoneskin. Sorry Devs but give us good reason to why and where this new one would be used because if your in a bad spot where you have to eat a pet in order to live then your in a bad spot period at least that is what I was taught. Now if for say this new expansion has mobs that are able to foresay charm our pets (unlikely but a thought) and we could not recharm them back, I would probably be more willing to take the pet loss for hp regain. In fact that kinda scares me to think of what a charmed automaton would do to it's master/partner. And please before anyone goes off about it I know our pets as of right now can not be charmed by mobs. :)

The thing I find funny about this lvl 99 ability that won't work on charmed pets. Is that I can only picture it being used by a lvl 1-10 using a charmed pet. I remember when I levelled bst from 1-10 I'd do the kiting strat of charm, attack, run and find another pet. I can see this being used if you were fighting something too strong and from the occasional hit between charms it had got you down to red, before your pet dies you could use the new 2hr to full heal and continue. Sadly it's not for charmed pets and by 99 you'll probably be experienced enough not to be in a situation like that

i think i bought my last jug pet,this new 2-hour is worthless and SE knows it.. Time to hang up my axe's i guess.

Excuse me Waiter, there is hot garbage in my new 2Hr.

I knew SE hated our job, but not to what extent. This "fix" gives some insight.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Hopefully its like 10,000 HP.

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Mostly I would hope it lasts 2hours and is undispelable. However much it does from there would be subject other factors, but having your 2hour Stoneskin wear after a few minutes or just having it dispelled would suck.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hello Beastmasters,

Thank you for all of your feedback. As you have heard, we updated the new BST 2 hour ability

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Your update made it more of a garbage ability than before, sorry.
Anything that KILLS YOUR PET is already a no-go for BST.
One of the worst parts about BST is any time where you have no pet and your Call Beast is on cooldown.
Why would we want to force this upon ourselves for a crappy heal/stoneskin that will not even allow us to tank half of what our pet could have?

USELESS 2 hour.
Remake it along with DNC and THF.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

We received a bit more information regarding the details of this update:
The potency varies depending on the pet but the amount of damage the Stoneskin can absorb will be more than the actual spell.

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Thank you Okipuit for lending us more insight to this 2-hour. I'm sure most of us would also like to know when these changes will be made on the test server so that we can reply accurately with test results of the specifics of the Stoneskin effect (its duration, how much Stoneskin is given from a majority of our pets, what stats of the pet modifies stoneskin, ect...). Or if we could bypass that and you could share some numbers with us? :D Probably won't happen but was worth a try.

I am curious as to why SE didn't give us this Stoneskin ability right off the bat especially if this 2-hour is intended to raise the Masters defensive capabilities. It just seems odd that to raise the Masters defensive capabilities they choose to give us Reraise first then after we speak our 2 cents they give this 2-hour Stoneskin instead then say its meant to raise the Master's defensive capabilities.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

As for why this ability cannot be used on charmed pets is directly related to its mechanics. Since the effect variation is dependent on the pet, it is limited to only jug pets.

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As many of my fellow Beastmasters have said, if the stoneskin effect is dependent on the pet it would seem logical to let us use this on Charmed pets as they are pets as well. The only difference between the two is they they are not Jug Pets which makes me think its more that the coding is being tied to Jug Pets some how... but now I'm getting carried away. The point is we would appreciate it if we could use this ability on Charmed pets as-well since Charm was the initial ability of Beastmaster.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

We're still collecting all your feedback regarding all these new abilities so please let us know your thoughts.

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A few of my fellow Beastmasters, including myself, have also asked when SE would see this 2-hour as useful. It has many limitations such as killing off our pet and the ability itself implies that we would have been taking damage prior to using the ability, enough so to want Reraise at first but now enough so to want a "potent" Stoneskin. Sure a "Potent" Stoneskin would enhance our defensive capabilities but our Pet is our biggest defense. Do they intend for Beastmasters to use this then "Call Beast" right away? If that is the case can we tack on resetting the "Call Beast" timer to this new 2-hour? Additionally it is limited to being attached to Familiar. :S

Personally, as I'm sure everyone knows, I am still not a fan of this 2-hour. Its effects are lackluster and against all flavor within the Beastmaster job (unless there is a pet calling kabob making craze amongst the NPC Beastmasters I'm unaware of). On the other hand familiar as a 2-hour was incredibly flavorful, it involved Beastmaster communicating with their pets and the pets kicking ass alongside the Beastmaster. Not to mention Charmed pets sticking around for 30 minutes while under the influence of familiar.

In my opinion, there are a few key parts to Beastmaster and flavor, communicating with the wilderness (charm and our abilities that work with pets), calling forth and utilizing pets that are always loyal to Beastmasters (Call Beast), and possessing knowledge of the wilderness and its creatures (widescan and killer traits). I see Familiar as representing the first part of communicating with our pets on a high level but what about the other two parts of Beastmaster? Perhaps if we were to change this ability we could go off of either of those. I'd love to have a pet called via 2-hour that is a total badass. Ideally I'd like for the pet to stick around for 30 minutes just as Familiar makes charmed pets stick around for 30 minutes. The pet itself would have high stats to make it 2-hour worthy and not just an average pet perhaps with more then 1 killer trait. ;)