Relic and Empyrean jobs that can use them.

There is no case of jobs being barred from specific trials. I don't see it happening.

They should just give RNF access to Caladbolg in the first place, I mean FFS even Paladin can use it...

i would just like to point out that if DNC had mandau it would be insanely broken. while THF has a higher dagger skill dnc gets more attacks, haste samba, built in duel weald, and the ability to sub SAM and get 100tp every 30-3minit's with reverse flerish and meditate (yes i know meditate is only 60tp for /sub, also dnc would get more store TP) the damage output would become insane.

i love dnc and use it as much as i can but am not so stupid as to realis that se new what they were doing when they did not give DNC mandau.

what has me wearyed is this empys arnt hard to make they just take time same as relics. mythics are just insane and i have respect foranyone that has one, but sum thing tells me the new weapons will be along the lines of mythic to make and if there not the "epean" crowd will cry that it is to easy to get.


as for gamers attitudes it happened when gaming became mane stream as well as with the internet.

Stopped reading at sub sam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Stopped reading at sub sam

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I'm sorry i must have missed the memo that said /SAM is a bad sub job for dnc

but it is nice to know that your so shallow as to invalidate sum thing sum one says based off a /job they use.
just so you know most of the time i go /ninja for tanking but if i am going as a nun tank and outside of abyssea will go /SAM for the store TP and meditate am sorry if your aleat knows is bent out of shape because i don't play a job how you feel it must be..

Yes, you did miss a lot of memos.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Yes, you did miss a lot of memos.

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i'm sorry for snapping at you i dislike the attitude you and others take tords sum players that if they do not play how you feal they should that means anything they say is wrong. i did not say you should main time /SAM but /SAM is a possible sub for sertin things on DNC. it also aggravated me because your post was meant to antagonist me as you did not have to post it but did just to get my fir up. but the snarky post i made in replay was rood and uncalled for and i aplagise for it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by katiekat

i'm sorry for snapping at you i dislike the attitude you and others take tords sum players that if they do not play how you feal they should that means anything they say is wrong. i did not say you should main time /SAM but /SAM is a possible sub for sertin things on DNC. it also aggravated me because your post was meant to antagonist me as you did not have to post it but did just to get my fir up. but the snarky post i made in replay was rood and uncalled for and i aplagise for it.

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Check his post history, not worth arguing with people like that.

what pisses me off is my hole point has been side tracked now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by katiekat

i'm sorry for snapping at you i dislike the attitude you and others take tords sum players that if they do not play how you feal they should that means anything they say is wrong. i did not say you should main time /SAM but /SAM is a possible sub for sertin things on DNC. it also aggravated me because your post was meant to antagonist me as you did not have to post it but did just to get my fir up. but the snarky post i made in replay was rood and uncalled for and i aplagise for it.

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Neisan_Quetz Has probably had in mind /WAR when he criticized your preference for DNC/SAM. It is true that at lv80-85 many DNCs used to /SAM as it offered a good boost to TP gain, but since getting Dual Wield IV, Reverse Flourish=100TP and augmented Saber Dance, going /WAR gives you better damage potential than /SAM: Double Attack (+10%, active also during weapon skills, this also translates to more TP from extra swings), Berserk, Warcry, Agressor and Provoke. /SAM offers miniscule sTP and Meditate/Sekkanoki every 5min. You can effectively use Presto->Reverse flourish->self-SkillChain more often than that already.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Milva

Neisan_Quetz Has probably had in mind /WAR when he criticized your preference for DNC/SAM. It is true that at lv80-85 many DNCs used to /SAM as it offered a good boost to TP gain, but since getting Dual Wield IV, Reverse Flourish=100TP and augmented Saber Dance, going /WAR gives you better damage potential than /SAM: Double Attack (+10%, active also during weapon skills, this also translates to more TP from extra swings), Berserk, Warcry, Agressor and Provoke. /SAM offers miniscule sTP and Meditate/Sekkanoki every 5min. You can effectively use Presto->Reverse flourish->self-SkillChain more often than that already.

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oh i know its not a ideal sub i was just pointing out tbh am not sure why i said it as i ohmost always go /nin on dnc but to reiterate my earlier point with out the SAM part.

i would just like to point out that if DNC had mandau it would be insanely broken. while THF has a higher dagger skill dnc gets more attacks, haste samba, built in duel weald, as well as there job ability's witch wood lead to there damage output becoming "insane.

love dnc and use it as much as i can but am not so stupid as to realis that se new what they were doing when they did not give DNC mandau.

what has me wearyed is this empys arnt hard to make they just take time same as relics. mythics are just insane and i have respect foranyone that has one, but sum thing tells me the new weapons will be along the lines of mythic to make and if there not the "epean" crowd will cry that it is to easy to get.


as for gamers attitudes it happened when gaming became mane stream as well as with the internet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by katiekat

i would just like to point out that if DNC had mandau it would be insanely broken. while THF has a higher dagger skill dnc gets more attacks, haste samba, built in duel weald, and the ability to sub SAM and get 100tp every 30-3minit's with reverse flerish and meditate (yes i know meditate is only 60tp for /sub, also dnc would get more store TP) the damage output would become insane.

i love dnc and use it as much as i can but am not so stupid as to realis that se new what they were doing when they did not give DNC mandau.

what has me wearyed is this empys arnt hard to make they just take time same as relics. mythics are just insane and i have respect foranyone that has one, but sum thing tells me the new weapons will be along the lines of mythic to make and if there not the "epean" crowd will cry that it is to easy to get.


as for gamers attitudes it happened when gaming became mane stream as well as with the internet.

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Mandau for dancer wouldn't make it broken WHATSOEVER. Sure maybe in abyssea it would pump up its damage a little more, but thats pretty much the only area where it would have that big of an effect. Level correction and the simple fact that it is a one handed weapon constantly hold dancer hostage. On voidwatch it would hardly be different than twash/thokcha. Ukon wars will still deal more damage, rag dark knights will still do more. Abyssea is fairly dead at the moment, dancer really isn't taken into Neo-Nyzul, and dancer at best does more damage than a mediocre war or sam in voidwatch. The problem doesn't lie within the weapon itself, but rather the way damage is calculated.

I agree with the players that complained about not being able to equip relic and/or empyrean weapons. IMO it's still time to update the jobs that can equip relic and, when new jobs come out, update again for them.

AFs were updated in Dynamis...why not the weapons?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Milva

Neisan_Quetz Has probably had in mind /WAR when he criticized your preference for DNC/SAM. It is true that at lv80-85 many DNCs used to /SAM as it offered a good boost to TP gain, but since getting Dual Wield IV, Reverse Flourish=100TP and augmented Saber Dance, going /WAR gives you better damage potential than /SAM: Double Attack (+10%, active also during weapon skills, this also translates to more TP from extra swings), Berserk, Warcry, Agressor and Provoke. /SAM offers miniscule sTP and Meditate/Sekkanoki every 5min. You can effectively use Presto->Reverse flourish->self-SkillChain more often than that already.

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Just to point out that DA from saber dance does not stack with the trait, that said war is still a superior sub job in terms of damage dealing for a DNC.

Also one more point to consider due to the old DW nerf back in the day, it greatly reduces the utility of STP for DW, not that it is useless but just not as practical.

I heavily disagree with relics having dnc ect plastered on them, you have job specific mythics and empyrean weapons, most being superior, all this kill the uniqueness of everything for everyone is a drag lol. I agree with rune fencer getting an empy and a mythic but not relics, And not relics for other jobs as well, quite honestly with how easy it is to lvl a job to 99, if you want a mandau then level thf and make one, if you want a ragnarok level dark knight, not every job needs to be Plastered on every item lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winrie

I heavily disagree with relics having dnc ect plastered on them, you have job specific mythics and empyrean weapons, most being superior, all this kill the uniqueness of everything for everyone is a drag lol. I agree with rune fencer getting an empy and a mythic but not relics, And not relics for other jobs as well, quite honestly with how easy it is to lvl a job to 99, if you want a mandau then level thf and make one, if you want a ragnarok level dark knight, not every job needs to be Plastered on every item lol.

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its not about uniquness, its about haveing access to the same "things" and evening the level field. I would agree with you IF Relics were job SPECIFIC like Mythics were, but allas they are not! They have multiple jobs clustered on them. Giving the remaining 5 jobs (and the 2 new upcomeing jobs) access to them would even the Field.

The same applied back then to gear selection when the new jobs were added.
PUP had no sky gear they coul access (no abjuration, no genbus suzakus etc gear)
COR was neither on homam nor on the sky god gear set (this got fixed 5 years too late with the addition of neo-limbus and the murzim set)
SCH DNC were totally left out of Salvage, Limbus (this was again fixed with neo-limbus 5 years too late!), Abjurations, kings gear etc.

If SE adds RNF and GEO to none of existing rare/ex gearsets from endgame (voidwatch, legion, sky etc etc) and doesnt add the jobs to relic and/or empy weapons, you might as well just delete them... Especially if they get no access to any form of empy or relic weapon.

I guess it would be a matter of respect with the players' effort to allow the older weapons usage. An example is to have a GS with physical dmg taken- and not being able to equip on rune fencer because SE decided that the new jobs would have no access to trial of magians stuff since they lead to empy weapons.

IMO they should generalize the most they can the trials (like adding, as example, WAR and rune fencer in furure at GS...pretty much expanding each weapon to all classes that can use the merit WS of that weapon) and then having job specialization trials, like adding an extra trial that would, as example, would split GS eph trials into caladbolg (PLD/DRK) path and a new one for WAR and rune fencer, but leaving elemental and WS paths generic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lienn

I guess it would be a matter of respect with the players' effort to allow the older weapons usage. An example is to have a GS with physical dmg taken- and not being able to equip on rune fencer because SE decided that the new jobs would have no access to trial of magians stuff since they lead to empy weapons.

IMO they should generalize the most they can the trials (like adding, as example, WAR and rune fencer in furure at GS...pretty much expanding each weapon to all classes that can use the merit WS of that weapon) and then having job specialization trials, like adding an extra trial that would, as example, would split GS eph trials into caladbolg (PLD/DRK) path and a new one for WAR and rune fencer, but leaving elemental and WS paths generic.

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I've never seen them split trials like that. Look at the base trial, that's what determines where it goes.

Honestly SE just needs to get off their high horse with weapons / weapon skills. Put the newer jobs on relics, open all weapon skills to "if you have the skill you can use it". Individual weapon rank along with gear will determine which weapon is good for which job.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by saevel

I've never seen them split trials like that. Look at the base trial, that's what determines where it goes.

Honestly SE just needs to get off their high horse with weapons / weapon skills. Put the newer jobs on relics, open all weapon skills to "if you have the skill you can use it". Individual weapon rank along with gear will determine which weapon is good for which job.

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Indeed. As I said, if a job can use the merit WS it should be able to equip the respective relic/empy weapon. The skill level alone is enough of balancing for weapons.

Well~ kinda... Staff is special in the respect, not sure about other weapons... Physical staff trials are BLM/SMN/SCH only while elemental trials are WHM/BLM/RDM/BRD/SMN/SCH. Then again Staff trials are all together unique from any other trial types so idk, but it does in fact exist.

The physical and elemental trials are separate branches that's why, for staff physical starts with Trial 776 and forms Shillelagh, Elemental starts with 790 and becomes Teiwaz (all of them can use crook, as soon as you complete 776 only blm/smn/sch can use the weapon).

Right, well it wouldn't exactly fix the entire problem but at least putting Rune on elemental trials would be a start. If nothing else they are meant to be a tank, and it would give them access to the potentially needed PDT/MDB Great Swords along with a STR GS for DDing. Like I said, not a fix, but a start.

Little off topic but any one know if there is a similar thread on the japanese side of the forums, curious if their of like mind on expanding access if so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by saevel

Yeah this is stupid. RNF (RNK) will be horribly gimped if it doesn't have access to some sort of legendary weapon. As it doesn't have emp access it won't have magian access either, so pretty much limited to AH weapons or Borealis.

Or to put it another way, without some sort of uber weapon, RNF is dead before it's even created. No amount of cosmetic flare will fix that.

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And unless mythics become suddenly 4x easier to get (not just a little easier, I mean exactly 25% the effort/cost), then you're absolutely right.

This is a wonderful opportunity for SE to learn from their mistake of not including all jobs on appropriate relic weapons. The fact they haven't learned that and are making it even worse by not including these new jobs on empyrean weapons is just another thing adding up to the lack of faith that a full expansion will bring any new players to this game. If this expansion comes out and it's on par with how horribly SE has been listening to players lately, you might as well not even make it and close up servers.

Edit: ok close up servers is a bit too harsh. obviously I still enjoy the game enough to play it but the perfect analogy for FFXI is from Seinfeld. SE is the soup nazi. Great product you can't really get elsewhere, but the worst attitude/customer service you could possibly imagine. And I'm just one that will play till the game's done regardless of how horribly SE is managing it. Doesn't mean I (or anyone) should be quiet about telling SE how horribly they're managing it.

Considering how they always profess balance, it seems terribly unbalanced that most jobs get relics, nearly every job gets an empyrean, and all jobs get a mythic but because the job was added after the initial release of relics and empyrean they are SOL.

If they want to profess a lore stand point the fact that mythic were (/are going to be) added to newer jobs after the fact make even less sense.

I think balance is almost never a real reason for them. Its just your typical fall back response for things. With alot of people the word "because" is their response when they don't want to answer something or cant be bothered. With SE its "balance", even when what is being asked for, or denied, has nothing to do with balance or even worse, its unbalanced! Like right now, no balance involved in this, in fact if anything its unbalanced by limiting the options of potentially powerful weapons for jobs released at a later date.

We are not stupid players, we are smart, if we weren't we would have never found out half of the things we know about this game that SE never bothered to tell us in the 1st place. But for some reason we are never really explained why things can not be done, I would rather a somewhat lengthy response from a rep explaining what would be offset with Relics/Emps being added to these jobs, instead of just balance and leaving it at that.

Another word they like to use as a fall back seems to be "congestion" because when an event is limited to being a time sink what do we get as reasoning? Its to limit congestion, something we don't actually see in any events. The only event that could be considered congested is Abyssea, which is the most open of them all!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 0nionKn1ght

Check his post history, not worth arguing with people like that.

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Especially when you're wrong.

Remember SE's definition of "Balance" isn't about how strong a job is in relation to others but how much time is required to accomplish content. From their point of view, being able to acquire the gear / legendary weapon for recently released jobs in a matter of months is "unbalanced", they want you to spend a year or three on that job. Expect huge walls to be implemented to the acquisition of whatever gear they release for RNF / GEO, they want you to take forever to acquire the shinys.

Honestly SE just needs to get over it's own case of Evil Game Master, it's not US vs THEM.

Nothing to really add, other than that I am a player who is acutely aware of just how short ALL of these weapons fall in a cost/benefit analysis and was never really motivated to do any of them (I literally only finished my first Empyrean, a Kannagi, yesterday), but if DNC were added to Mandau even I would start buying currency immediately.

Honestly, the most aggravating thing about this whole situation is how totally silent SE is on the issue. You would think by now they would have clarified whether or not the new jobs will be able to use magian trial weapons (assuming that geomancer, being a magey~support job would probably want the magian staves), and will simply not have access to the physical trials that lead to emp weapons, but no, they're leaving it in the dark, and the longer it goes, the more heavy the implication that neither geomancer nor rune fencer will be able to access ANY of the magian trials, which is absolutely ridiculous.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Nothing to really add, other than that I am a player who is acutely aware of just how short ALL of these weapons fall in a cost/benefit analysis and was never really motivated to do any of them (I literally only finished my first Empyrean, a Kannagi, yesterday), but if DNC were added to Mandau even I would start buying currency immediately.

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Seriously. If DNC could rock it, I would build one sooo fast.

Greetings,

We would like to provide further explanation as to why Relic Weapons will not be expanded to other jobs.
Relic weapons were created based on the current weapon types available in Vana'diel and not based on the available jobs. Since there are differences between which weapons certain jobs can equip, this is something that cannot be completely equal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

So SE said in a interview that Geo and Rune fencer will not be able to use Relics and Empyrean weapons.

Either way the issue as a whole.

Firstly DNC and SCH
These 2 jobs fit the lore of relic weapons massively so i really think at the least DNC should be able to use mandau and SCH should be able to use club or staff

Now PUP COR and BLU
All 3 Weapons wouldn't make any of the jobs overpowered but the gun would help COR alot when wildfire (it's prome source of DMG) isn't available either way i think BLU is a skilled enough swordsman to weild an Excalibur and COR gunman to weild Annihilator and PUP worth enough to wield the hand 2 hand.

Finally GEO and RUN
They definitely should have the option to wield empyrean the gsd emp and staff emp arn't ground breaking weapons so i see no reason why they shouldn't have emps

Then Relics well it depends w/ the above if BLU COR and PUP get access so should GEO and RUN
Honestly only having mythics as a final weapon is kinda sad :(

In summary my suggestion is this
There should a be a relic and empyrean for every job in the game

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In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons, and since this would affect other jobs as well it is not such a simple thing to do. This doesn't just pertain to only adjustments, the same can be said for if we were to add new weapons, as they would affect currently existing items.

After a thorough discussion, we have decided to keep Relic Weapons as they are in the case new weapons are added. These new weapons will be designed around their respective jobs.

Also, in regards to mythic weapons, these weapons are similar to artifact and relic gear as they are job specific, so we plan on releasing mythic weapons for any new jobs that are introduced moving forward.

Cop-out! Non-excuses! Claiming there's a legitimate reason when you're just pulling it out of your bums!

I think that summarizes everybody's objections succinctly enough.

With the exception of this:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Also, in regards to mythic weapons, these weapons are similar to artifact and relic gear as they are job specific, so we plan on releasing mythic weapons for any new jobs that are introduced moving forward.

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... none of what you just said made any sense. Just to be clear. No sense at all.

You may as well have just said "we are not adding other jobs to existing relics because: popcorn rainbow jellyfish zooberzatelflop.".

Okipuit are there plans to make obtaining a Mythic weapon more realistic? At the moment they take much to long for anyone to bother doing, alot of time and money has to go into making a Mythic. Relic & Emp weapons have one advantage that Mythics do not, a divercity of jobs, as you said yourself...

Quote:

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Also, in regards to mythic weapons, these weapons are similar to artifact and relic gear as they are job specific

---

This is part of the problem in my opinion, when looking at a weapon I want to make, I see a weapon I can make fast, for 2~3 jobs. A weapon I can make somewhat slowly, for 1~3 jobs, or a weapon, that will take me 6+ months perhaps even a year, of rigorous work and hardship, to make for a single job. Part of the problem with this in reality is that this game changes relevant jobs occationaly, so making a weapon for a job now, may be a waste of time once this expansion comes out, or the next update is releasing new content.

I myself still don't understand how the effects on the current weapons would be overpowering to the jobs, but apparently that is what the devs believe, if thats a case, please make a Mythic weapon a true possibility. Even a note was placed into the census commenting on the extremely small number of Mythics currently made in relevance to Relics and Emps. Back when Mythics were made they were to be the "casuals" relic, but that gap is enormous, and in the wrong direction, rather than being easier than relics, they are harder, and not slightly, but by a longshot.

Can we also be told if at least some trial weapons will be available to Rune/Geo or not? Without knowing this it is impossible to know what the job will be doing, if you give neither of these jobs trial weapons then I am sorry to say but in all honesty these jobs will seriously die very quickly.

Trial weapons and Relic/Emp have been the main weapons everyone uses on most jobs due to their power and ability to enhance the attributes a job needs or specializes in directly. For instance, Ninjas normally use a combo between EVA Katanas, STR Katanas, and an Emp/Relic Katana. WARs use Emp/Relic GA, Relic Sword, and PDT GA. DRKs use OAT GS, Relic GS, and Relic Scythe. If Rune/Geo truly have no access to these, then it will come down to either having a Mythic, or having an AH weapon, neither of which are good or appealing choices most likely. This will probably result in a job, entering this game dead as soon as it begins.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Greetings,

We would like to provide further explanation as to why Relic Weapons will not be expanded to other jobs.
Relic weapons were created based on the current weapon types available in Vana'diel and not based on the available jobs. Since there are differences between which weapons certain jobs can equip, this is something that cannot be completely equal.



In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons, and since this would affect other jobs as well it is not such a simple thing to do. This doesn't just pertain to only adjustments, the same can be said for if we were to add new weapons, as they would affect currently existing items.

After a thorough discussion, we have decided to keep Relic Weapons as they are in the case new weapons are added. These new weapons will be designed around their respective jobs.

Also, in regards to mythic weapons, these weapons are similar to artifact and relic gear as they are job specific, so we plan on releasing mythic weapons for any new jobs that are introduced moving forward.

---

Why don't you guys make a list of what changes would have to be made to empys and relics and let the players vote to see if they'd like them to stay the same or if we'd like the newer jobs to be able to equip them and take the nerfs? Is that really too much to ask for? :(

LOL I feel truly sorry for Okipuit, bad news after bad news have to be delivered. Well at least we know that the current team is just as stubborn and clueless as the one before them. With barely any visions other than just put another bandage solutions, or flatly refused any suggestions from their player base. I think it's rather clear the vision now, ignore the player base, hope they quit, and perhaps migrate to FF14.... Though most would probably just ignore SE, quit alltogether, stop buying their future product, and lost faith at the company.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

With the exception of this:


... none of what you just said made any sense. Just to be clear. No sense at all.

You may as well have just said "we are not adding other jobs to existing relics because: popcorn rainbow jellyfish zooberzatelflop.".

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Yeah, seriously, that explanation from Okipuit makes no sense at all. Hopefully people continue to complain until we get a real answer. In all honesty, I don't even think the answer given is the real reason why they don't add new jobs to the old weapons either. It just feels like the devs are being deceitful to me.

The devs are pretending their jobs are harder than they actually are. Anyone who knows anything about these weapons and jobs can look at them for 45 seconds and see that adding new jobs to them would break absolutely nothing. Can we please get a more specific explanation of what you are afraid of so we can have a serious back and forth instead of a

"Can we has?"
"No"
"Why"
"Because we said so"
"Based on what?"
"The fact that Roger Rabbit had both Disney and Warner Brothers characters in it"
(-_-)?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons, and since this would affect other jobs as well it is not such a simple thing to do. This doesn't just pertain to only adjustments, the same can be said for if we were to add new weapons, as they would affect currently existing items.

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Why would they have to make changes? Help us understand, give us an example. I'm not trying to 'shoot the messenger', I know you're not a dev, so I'm not going to lash out at you or anything, but this honestly seems like a cop out. I don't see why anything would need to be changed, nor do I see how adding jobs to relics would effect balance in any way unless you added BLM to Apocalypse or something completely illogical like that. I'll probably be crucified for saying this, but I never completely understood why BRD gets Mandau, why PLD gets Ragnarok, but they do. Why? Why wasn't PLD put on Mjollnir or Claustrum? It'd make about the same amount of sense.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, if PLD got Claustrum, it'd actually have a use, situational to the point of being redundant to upgrade, but it would be a use.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

We would like to provide further explanation as to why Relic Weapons will not be expanded to other jobs.

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As long as the letters WHM are the only letters on Mjollnir, I think I'll be okay.

That said, please be sure to examine the Empyrean weapons closely. I think they're new enough for a change in who can equip them!