TH activation rumour

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I would bet big chunks of money that this is complete bullshit. Sadly it's almost impossible to prove/disprove it. Would require lots if dedicated testing for something I'm pretty much sure is wrong, and I'm sure other people feel the same way. So unlikely it will ever get actually tested.

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I second this notion.

As for the CHR, THF has had fairly good CHR all along, and one of our primary WS is 30% CHR based (DE). It also has enmity properties (slower decay iirc?) which assists THF for tanking. CHR also possibly affects intimidation rates for Bully?

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Originally Posted by Komori

This might be a really noobish question but is the "fight on lightsday" or "Boost-CHR" rumor or fact? I remember being with a few mercenaries once and they believed fighting monsters on lightsday and boosting CHR also allowed you to get more TH procs overall and I know that Assassin's Armlets +2 have CHR+7? On them, is there perhaps any connection? Sorry, if it's already common knowledge or not but I wanted to know!

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I'll be more than happy to put it to the test on some turtle kills. My experience has always been TH9-11 without fail by the end so it shouldn't be terribly hard to give it a seal of approval if I start getting something like TH15 during lightsday and lots of CHR, on multiple kills. I'm much easier to please than the "must be over 9000!" crowd so I will feel perfectly comfortable deciding one way or another after like 5 kills or whatever.

It's a simple test, really. Not like it's drop rate testing. But I'll admit my chances of doing further tests after a poor first kill will go down the drain. If it's true I will fully expect to see the difference right off the bat. And if it doesn't impress me yet it's still true because it's just a small increase in procs then it doesn't really matter at that point because we won't have no way of knowing nor will we really care and would sooner stick with what we know than worry about yet another set of gear to carry around everywhere. So, if I see interesting results I'll report back. If I never report back it means the results I saw wasn't worth my time typing up a paragraph explaining how this theoryTHing tale is fail.

Didn't mean to make anyone angry, was just something I saw someone use the method once. Occassionally like on the Kings to try and sell it's drops etc.

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Originally Posted by Komori

Didn't mean to make anyone angry, was just something I saw someone use the method once. Occassionally like on the Kings to try and sell it's drops etc.

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you'd have thought the development team threatened to nerf their treasure hunter eh? >.> see what I did there? ;)

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Originally Posted by Vold

I'm much easier to please than the "must be over 9000!" crowd so I will feel perfectly comfortable deciding one way or another after like 5 kills or whatever.

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There's no "over 9000 or else" crowd. It's just statistics. 5 kills means literally nothing. If you get 5/5 on a drop there's still a decent chance it's only a 50% drop. It's a fact that you need a high number of kills to accurately justify a claim, especially one such as that, because the probability to get a TH upgrade is already very low, so any modification to it will be small regardless of the effect.

Also, Assassin's Armlets had CHR on them long before the TH upgrades were implemented. It's extremely unlikely it's related to TH in any way.

Not to mention CHR has been the base of countless Speculation, all of which was proven garbage. With that said, Would like to mention, CHR is thfs worst stat, Throwing that out there.

On top of all else, Don't believe most rumors you hear, As they're nothing more than how most Ancient Religions began. "The Sun goes across the sky, Must be being pulled by a Chariot!". When people are too dumb and stubborn to understand something, or its simply just out of their logical/intellectual grasp, They make up hocus pocus to try and explain it.

This is true even in FFXI, So the next time you hear someone tell you that you need to Mainhand THF's knife, or you have to see a proc for it to actually be on the mob, Or that CHR/Lightsday Effects rate without any proof other than "Shut Up I'm right"... Just feel pity, Cause they're probably incredibly stupid. Or at the very least, Logically impaired.

While typing this I'm realizing I'm drawing eerie parallels from another ageless Internet debate.

Am I blind? Personally I cannot recall ever procing TH on either an offhand hit or a DA/TA/QA hit...

Before I go try to test it later, been to busy to Thief... anyone know off the top of thier heads? Even anecdotally is fine.

(And yeah, i will likely get an answer here before I get a chance to test it.)

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

So the next time you hear someone tell you that you need to Mainhand THF's knife

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I main-hand thf's knife if I want higher TH on a mob, but not because it increases the chance to proc or anything, just because it's so gimp, TH has more chances to proc before mob dies from SA/TAs as you're not doing as much damage ;p

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Originally Posted by Frost

Am I blind? Personally I cannot recall ever procing TH on either an offhand hit or a DA/TA/QA hit...

Before I go try to test it later, been to busy to Thief... anyone know off the top of thier heads? Even anecdotally is fine.

(And yeah, i will likely get an answer here before I get a chance to test it.)

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1st hit of the attack round only. (I have no proof to back this up. I have never done any testing or parsing, but it is fact.)

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Originally Posted by Frost

Am I blind? Personally I cannot recall ever procing TH on either an offhand hit or a DA/TA/QA hit...

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I actually tested this, the upgrade rate single wielding and dual wielding with a shitload of DA/TA/QA on is the same per round. So it can only upgrade once per attack round. And in dozens of tests it never happened on another hit, and it never happened when the first hit missed, so that's a fair assumption. Although my sample of missed first hits is not exceedingly high, but I also don't remember it ever happening outside of those tests, and I usually pay good attention to the log. So best way to upgrade TH quickly is to single-wield a Thief's Knife and have at it.

Oh, and current testing points towards delay not playing a role in the upgrade chance, although I only tested it in limited circumstances so far. I'll expand upon it and present the findings when I get the time, but I'm pretty sure delay is not a factor in it. And neither is damage dealt with the upgrading hit, in case anyone is wondering.

I lied about not reporting back with failure. TH11 during lightsday and +12 CHR. Didn't really go out of my way to stack the CHR but I don't feel compelled to bother any further with the lightsday/chr theory.

For the record, I did not bother using feint to taint my outcome because I have never killed the turtle post feint changes. With that said, I also for the first time tried out full timing TH gear which pretty much nullifies my reasons for not using feint but eh I was after at least a red pondweed drop for my trouble. That didn't increase my usual TH effectiveness on turtle, either. Maybe I should kill a few more times just to be sure but ya know what... I'm just getting too damn old to care. Take what I've done for what it's worth. Even just one kill with failure is enough for me to move on. I won't lose any sleep if the theory turns out fact. It'd be so little of a boost that it's not worth worrying about.

The only issue I have with your test voldymoldy is that you simultaniously tested two theories, so we have either a positive on the CHR test or a positive on the TH gear full-time test. Naturally I lean towards the TH gear, but who knows.

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Originally Posted by Delvish

The only issue I have with your test voldymoldy is that you simultaniously tested two theories, so we have either a positive on the CHR test or a positive on the TH gear full-time test. Naturally I lean towards the TH gear, but who knows.

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I think his "test" showed that it had no effect (he mentioned getting TH9-11 regularly before), so it's neither the one nor the other. Statistically, though, it says absolutely nothing anyway.

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Originally Posted by Vold

I'll be more than happy to put it to the test on some turtle kills. My experience has always been TH9-11 without fail

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Originally Posted by Vold

I lied about not reporting back with failure. TH11 during lightsday and +12 CHR.

I also for the first time tried out full timing TH gear which pretty much nullifies my reasons for not using feint but eh I was after at least a red pondweed drop for my trouble. That didn't increase my usual TH effectiveness on turtle, either.

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Originally Posted by Delvish

The only issue I have with your test voldymoldy is that you simultaniously tested two theories, so we have either a positive on the CHR test or a positive on the TH gear full-time test. Naturally I lean towards the TH gear, but who knows.

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It proved nothing what-so-ever. He did 1 kill and was at the higher end of his usual TH results.

The only thing that I can say has a definite impact on your end result when killing this mob:

If you kill it while you have 'Treasure Hound' Super Kupower, you will end up with a better TH than if you didn't have it while keeping everything else the same as you usually do, lol.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

If you kill it while you have 'Treasure Hound' Super Kupower, you will end up with a better TH than if you didn't have it while keeping everything else the same as you usually do, lol.

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Treasure Hound simply adds 1 TH to whatever you currently have on.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I think his "test" showed that it had no effect (he mentioned getting TH9-11 regularly before), so it's neither the one nor the other. Statistically, though, it says absolutely nothing anyway.

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Yea, I suppose I jumped to conclusions. One test is not enough to accurately judge anything. I think I'll start recording my Dynamis run's TH procs and see where that gets me.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Treasure Hound simply adds 1 TH to whatever you currently have on.

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Precisely my point.

Really? in 2012 people still question how TH is applied? I understand the whole "we kinda think we know but we don't really know how TH effects drop rates" but to question at what point TH level has been applied is...wow.

As an aside, a frien of mine and I were talking and he told me that he had problems with applying TH when using steps first. IE his first action was to use a step on he mob in full TH gear, and then switch to DD gear, etc.

He said tha tmore often than not, he would get a lower level of TH than expected most of the time.

Is this because of the situation where two debuffs or en-type effects cannot be applied with the same melee hit/action? IE. Feint overrides samba effects et?

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Nebo

He said tha tmore often than not, he would get a lower level of TH than expected most of the time.

Is this because of the situation where two debuffs or en-type effects cannot be applied with the same melee hit/action? IE. Feint overrides samba effects et?

Thoughts?

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It's possible. Neither steps nor flourishes seem to apply TH. Why that is I can't say. Could possibly be tested with other actions.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

It's possible. Neither steps nor flourishes seem to apply TH. Why that is I can't say. Could possibly be tested with other actions.

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I think it may have something to do with TH being applied on attacks and not abilities. Best way to test is probably use bully and/or steal with TH gear on, then attack without TH gear and see what you get. If TH works, try with Jump because at that point it is because of support job abilities. My guess though is definitely that TH doesn't work with JA. Only attacks and RA.

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Originally Posted by Delvish

I think it may have something to do with TH being applied on attacks and not abilities. Best way to test is probably use bully and/or steal with TH gear on, then attack without TH gear and see what you get. If TH works, try with Jump because at that point it is because of support job abilities. My guess though is definitely that TH doesn't work with JA. Only attacks and RA.

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TH is applied on both Bully and Provoke, so it's not because of JAs or because of subbed JAs.

Seems more like unintended behaviour than anything, that is, a bug, since they have stated that one only needs to act upon a target for Treasure Hunter to be in effect. Why would the dancer abilities be different?

I can't think of a reason.

Has it been tested only while fighting another target (or while not engaged), or for example, while engaged, yet standing back towards the target so that a step can be used as the first action?

I've only noticed it when I've had a link, used a step on the add since I was in dyna and mob I was fighting was procced. I used TH gear to step/flourish the add, then went back to regular gear to finish other mob off, but stayed in regular gear when I moved onto next mob. TH upgrades and it's only the upgrade from TP gear, not full TH.

That said, I've not tried it with my back to a mob and engaged.

Yeah, the very reason for thinking about that is that I imagine in most situations people are fighting one monster, and then using the steps or whatever actions on another, that is not their current (claimed) target.

Ok I totally stopped reading this and if I repeat anything I am sorry please forgive me my second character is a 99 thief its my favorite job and after countless hrs of swearing I was totally gimped cause th didn't land this is some things I do to help it one I stack s/a bully and feint in one macro with my thf gear of course 90 percent of time it lands but if not and your not alone I Ta someone which we all know that's nothing new. Another thing I noticed and experimented with was daggers I one I noticed have better proc rate with lower delayed daggers vs higher delay higher damage daggers . Because your constantly swingging also if it's something that has high Eva add some more acc gear most of this was mentioned but really its game of chance there is no right wrong way just always seems something don't drop and its thf's fault we all have been there but truly its not .also completely off topic on steal or despoil I have noticed higher success rate after using feint .once again if I said anything that was already posted sorry happy thieving :)

Also.forgot this when all else fails assasians charge seems to help if you.use it alone not Stacked with wepon.skill have gotten many procs using that way but really I Believe it's more of game of chance then science and I myself do everything to see th go off and any theif gets that .

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Originally Posted by Starlyte

Ok I totally stopped reading this and if I repeat anything I am sorry please forgive me my second character is a 99 thief its my favorite job and after countless hrs of swearing I was totally gimped cause th didn't land this is some things I do to help it one I stack s/a bully and feint in one macro with my thf gear of course 90 percent of time it lands but if not and your not alone I Ta someone which we all know that's nothing new. Another thing I noticed and experimented with was daggers I one I noticed have better proc rate with lower delayed daggers vs higher delay higher damage daggers . Because your constantly swingging also if it's something that has high Eva add some more acc gear most of this was mentioned but really its game of chance there is no right wrong way just always seems something don't drop and its thf's fault we all have been there but truly its not .also completely off topic on steal or despoil I have noticed higher success rate after using feint .once again if I said anything that was already posted sorry happy thieving :)

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First of all, TH always lands. You don't need to do anything for that. Only TH upgrades can "land". So even if you don't get the animation, TH is still on the mob.

Secondly, dagger delay plays no role in upgrade rate, other than the fact that lower delay daggers will yield more hits in the same time frame. But the chance on each hit is the same.

Finally, while it hasn't been formally disproved, it's very unlikely that Feint affects Steal, Mug or Despoil in any way. This is probably just eyeballing-error combined with confirmation bias.

It's been said: We must TP in TH gear in order to build TH at a steady rate. While dagger delay plays no role in how fast the rate goes, the amount of TH you have on is what affects it the most. However, that being said, unless SE does something (even a new offhand dagger that has TH+1 and better stats than TK on it), then I openly REFUSE to offhand TK. I will dual wield Thokchas, mainly for better stats and damage overall. I plan on buckling down after building Masa to make a Twashtar, but even after Twashtar is made, I will STILL refuse to use TK. TH+1 is not better than outputting a better amount of damage, and more of it.

Just putting it out there, main-hand only beestinger is the best way to proc TH. I was tinkering around with it for fun off-handing a shield and found my TH gain rates immensely improved. Of course, any non-DW dagger would yield similar results. Naturally anything along these lines is a HUGE hit to your personal DPS but in the unlikely event you are present JUST for TH and nothing else... this is the way.

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Originally Posted by Delvish

Just putting it out there, main-hand only beestinger is the best way to proc TH.

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With a Beestinger you get up to 30% more melee hits in the same time frame as with a Thief's Knife (assuming no downtime and no JA use), but are one TH tier behind. While exact TH upgrade rates have not been found yet, we know that the probability of an upgrade decreases with the TH difference between your current setup and the TH level that's on the mob already. For single wielding a Beestinger to be a better choice than single wielding a Thief's Knife (in terms of upgrade rates) the probability decline between TH tiers can be calculated by looking at a geometric distribution model.

The expected time to get an upgrade can be calculated by (1/p_x)*delay, where x is the TH difference and delay the weapon's delay. To determine whether Beestinger is better than Thief's Knife for any given x, we need to calculate
(1/p_(x+1))*150 < (1/p_x)*194,
which can be transformed to
p_(x+1) > 0.77*p_x (roughly).

If that inequality is true, using a Beestinger is better, otherwise Thief's Knife wins. So if upgrade rate for zero TH difference is 1% (that's a decent estimate based on current data) and upgrade rate for the one TH difference is 0.75%, Thief's Knife would already be better. I don't know how big it actually is, that would require some seriously boring testing, but personally I don't think Beestinger would come out on top. Judging by how hard it is to upgrade further than TH12 the TH difference progression must be significantly lower than just 75% of the previous value, otherwise TH12 would only have a TH upgrade chance of 24% of TH7, which is a lot higher than is commonly observed. I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually 5%.

That's assuming that it follows a certain progression, which I'm not certain of, but I hope to be the case. Otherwise the question would have to be answered for all cases individually and couldn't be determined for all TH difference values.

If low delay daggers end up beating TK, no reason to use beestinger when you can use some other 150-delay dagger like Puginculus, Rapidus Sax or Oneiros Knife.

I doubt they would given that the upgrade rate seems to decrease exponentially with the increasing levels, so getting your base TH level as high as possible is far more valuable.

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Originally Posted by Kincard

If low delay daggers end up beating TK, no reason to use beestinger when you can use some other 150-delay dagger like Puginculus, Rapidus Sax or Oneiros Knife.

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I think he meant using a Beestinger to avoid dealing too much damage, for cases where you want the highest possible TH without killing the mob too fast. Otherwise you'd be correct, though.

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Originally Posted by Kincard

I doubt they would given that the upgrade rate seems to decrease exponentially with the increasing levels, so getting your base TH level as high as possible is far more valuable.

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I assumed exponential decrease, namely by p*(d^x) where x is the TH difference, p the original upgrade chance (at x=0) and d the amount by which it decreases with level. Above I gave an example for p=0.01 (1%) and d=0.75 (75% decrease with each level). d is calculated by p_(x+1)/p_x, and if that value is > 0.77 then Beestinger (or 150 delay in general) will be better, if it's < 0.77 then Thief's Knife will win. I just don't think the first case is very likely. I wouldn't be surprised if it was 50%.

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Originally Posted by Kincard

If low delay daggers end up beating TK, no reason to use beestinger when you can use some other 150-delay dagger like Puginculus, Rapidus Sax or Oneiros Knife.

I doubt they would given that the upgrade rate seems to decrease exponentially with the increasing levels, so getting your base TH level as high as possible is far more valuable.

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It is true that the other 150 delay daggers would work just as well but as mentioned the DPS would be higher. Most logical scenario is against a single boss monster when it is just yourself and a PLD (and healer) whittling it down slowly while pesky AoE is not an issue.

Also thanks for posting the math up. I think higher base TH would probably win out, but also have to include maths for external support types like magic haste, COR delay reductions, samba, etc. Over time that may change the favor of THF knife to 150d daggers.

Naw. Further sources of delay reduction either don't change the relationship between the two or favor the higher delay weapon.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

No, they're dumb.

Here are some rumors about TH that are unfortunately more likely to be accurate:
2) The odds of TH proccing are proportional to your current TH level (in gear/traits) and the next TH level. So someone with TH7 in gear will upgrade to TH8 at approximately the same rate that someone with TH4 in gear will upgrade to TH5.
3) The upgrade rate decreases as you get to a higher and higher TH level. So someone with TH4 in gear will have a harder time going from TH5 to TH6 than from TH4 to TH5.

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Now, I'd say from playing on a newbie THF that #2 seems right. I've hunted the same area with Treasure Hound (the Kupower) active and not, and going TH1 -> 2 with my L20 THF happens at about the same rate as TH2 -> 3 seems to. That's ancedotal data rather than a parse, so take it as you will, but I think that the odds for going +1, +2, +3... on TH are the same, regardless of your initial TH level. Offhanding TK vs mainhanding it shouldn't be a tough test in any case, and frankly I don't think it matters- you could easily go around two-shotting mobs while dual-wielding and check the results.

Yeah, pretty much everything I listed was confirmed by now. Here is a page with the information, and there are sources at the bottom:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Treasure_Hunter

From the way start of this thread the bit about "If a thf dies do they have to touch it or do they have to be in exp range."

I would have to really search for it but i beleive when the initial changes were made or they answered somewhere the devs said something bout you could apply TH and then warp home and change jobs and the TH would still be there (assuming you were in a group or whatever to hold the mob). of course you could no longer proc higher TH levels.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

It also has enmity properties (slower decay iirc?) which assists THF for tanking. CHR also possibly affects intimidation rates for Bully?

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Yes, higher CHR slows enmity decay, so not only does it help a THF in the tank role, but also helps a THF build hate to dump on a tank when in a support role. As for Bully, that's a really good question and I wish I knew.

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Originally Posted by Trumpy

I would have to really search for it but i beleive when the initial changes were made or they answered somewhere the devs said something bout you could apply TH and then warp home and change jobs and the TH would still be there (assuming you were in a group or whatever to hold the mob). of course you could no longer proc higher TH levels.

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Yes, and that's been the same for ages. TH is like a debuff that stays on the mob as long as its hate list isn't empty, so until it deaggros. It's like Abyssean weakness staggers.

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Originally Posted by Toadie-Odie

Yes, higher CHR slows enmity decay, so not only does it help a THF in the tank role, but also helps a THF build hate to dump on a tank when in a support role. As for Bully, that's a really good question and I wish I knew.

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I don't remember anyone ever showing CHR being related to enmity in any way, and unless all the enmity testers so far all happened to have equal CHR when they did their testing it's not related to enmity decay either.

It may be related to Bully, I can't say, although I don't think it's likely.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Yes, and that's been the same for ages. TH is like a debuff that stays on the mob as long as its hate list isn't empty, so until it deaggros. It's like Abyssean weakness staggers.



I don't remember anyone ever showing CHR being related to enmity in any way, and unless all the enmity testers so far all happened to have equal CHR when they did their testing it's not related to enmity decay either.

It may be related to Bully, I can't say, although I don't think it's likely.

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I may have been misinformed then, and I appologize for giving out incorrect information.

I believe the basis for the arguement about CHR in the LS I was in at the time was in regards to BRD being such a hate magnet. It is the job with the highest CHR rating isn't it? I do know there is a CHR effect on songs similar to that of MND on cures. Theoretically it makes sense to me, and thus I took it as fact. Truthfully however, I haven't seen any numbers to prove or disprove this.

With all of that said it makes me wonder why both PLDs and WHMs have a number of gear pieces that add CHR.

I'm going to guess Asn. Armlets +2 having CHR is only because the NQ had CHR, and the NQ had CHR because of Dancing Edge.

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Originally Posted by Toadie-Odie

I believe the basis for the arguement about CHR in the LS I was in at the time was in regards to BRD being such a hate magnet. It is the job with the highest CHR rating isn't it?

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It is, but even with no CHR gear at all a BRD can keep hate with the correct songs, because some songs are simply high-enmity by nature.