WHM Have NO Natural Refresh Capability, WHY?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khajit

Whm doesn't need the refresh and even if they did need it we could *gasp* just get help from a job that actually can refresh in a game based on teamwork.

---

On the rare occasion that I do sub the affore mentioned job over SCH(Which is superior BTW.), I never remember to cast refresh on myself anyway.

I didn't mean changing sj. Been up a bit too late?(It would be a fair guess that my timezone is ahead of yours and this is really late at night for you)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khajit

I didn't mean changing sj. Been up a bit too late?(It would be a fair guess that my timezone is ahead of yours and this is really late at night for you)

---

It was mearly a statement of; That if I did have refresh, it would almost never be used.

That part was kinda covered in the "even if they did need it" part of my initial statement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flyinghippress

A good WHM in Abyssea will have club skill leveled to proc Blue!! with Hexa Strike so this argument doesn't really hold up.

I personally never have an MP issue as WHM/RDM inside or outside of Abyssea. I used to always just /SCH before cap rose and I do still think it's a good sub but I just prefer the mindless casting of Refresh and not having to worry about a sublimation being dispelled (used to happen to me a lot).

Edit: And my best guess to answer your question is that up until the game got turned into Easy-mode there was still a need to keep people taking time to level up. Longer they take to level up the longer they play, the more money they make. The more you have to rest the more time it takes. Having a RDM or BRD in the party was always standard to make sure resting time was lowered. This forced some sense of teamwork (SE's premise for FFXI) essentially rewarding you for doing what they wanted you to do.

---

Actually, it still holds up. If you have club leveled enough to proc blue, you are NOT going to melee on the mob and feed it TP. If you do, you are an idiot. You will pop a wing or have a regain atma on for TP or, heaven forbid, have a SAM feed you TP. Which leads me right back to where I was, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET MP?

If all you are doing is proc'ing blue, how do you get MP back? Mystic Boon, right? Oh, wait, that's right, you don't use it because you are just there to proc blue. BUT, MP in Abyssea is not an issue. I am talking about outside Abyssea (that still exists, right?). Even though not many people like to do stuff outside Abyssea, there are still some dedicated players that want to complete the rest of the game.

Anyway, you are missing the point of this thread. WHM have no natural refresh and never have. Before and after Abyssea, there is STILL no refresh. Why have they still not addressed the issue? Pre-level 80 increase, you could truly see how screwed WHM got. Now you can finally see that they are "trying" to fix WHM because they realize that they have no way to get MP back, save for lolddwhm'ing. Everyone knows that you can grab a support job and get some kind of MP recovery. But I want to know why WHM by itself can not refresh. If WHM could get some form of natural refresh, it would be great to see what you could do with different support jobs. Because as of right now, all WHM gets to sub is RDM for convert and refresh, SCH for sublimation and light arts, and BLM if you are really bored and want Warp II access. I suppose you could sub SMN for avatars for S&G's.

And the point of "easy mode" for FFXI was that they were trying to break the game so that people would hate it and switch over to FFXIV. Thus why they didn't release just another 5 levels, they are releasing everything they have been holding back for their "rainy day." But after realizing that FFXIV bombed so hardcore, now they have to work on making FFXI NOT suck and are having a hell of a time doing it. I'm still waiting for them to release Rank 15, it's already in the data files, and has been for years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lancil

I don't see why whms need an auto-refresh. Higher tier cures make the mp gained from the trait almost unnoticeable. If anything, whms should get conserve mp, but that would just be redundant due to the ability to sub sch. In the long run while spamming cures you'll notice that you have a larger mp pool with conserve mp than without it; and if you are idle waiting for those few tics of mp why not rest. It's not like kneeling down will kill you. In roughly one second you can be up curing your tank without any setbacks.

---

Yeah, kneeling down may not kill you, but the delay it takes to drop to a knee, AS your tank gets hit, now you have to try desperately to stand up and get a cure off before they die. It may not kill you, it sure as hell can kill your tank in a matter of seconds. I would call that a setback.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Momohko

The reason we have ballad is because brds are SUPPORT jobs we have the ballad for YOU whms -.- if whms would stop running away from me when i ballad them or if they would stop being so close to the damn melee yea their refresh rate wouldn't be an issue(not saying you do this but you rly wouldn't believe the ammount of mages who run from ballad or the melee who feel they need ballad with their 10 mp pool -.-). Aside from being brd for over 6 years now I am also whm and I don't run into much mp problems, while yes it would be nice to have some sort of refresh native to whm I don't feel it is a NEED. To me it would mean I would not have to be as careful when playing whm lol. I have seen a galka whm with decent gear nothing amazing have no problem with healing while I have been with plenty of hume taru or mithra whm who have the hardest time keeping people healed and keeping mp up so another thing to consider is player skill~

---

Yes, I understand BRD is a support job, I stated that too. I was also using it to prove a point. DNC has a refresh dance as well. So does COR.

And while the Galka did not have a problem with MP, did you know that a Galka also has stronger cures than any other race? That does play a big factor.

I know player skill is something to consider, I have seen 3 WHM in an alliance run out of MP and get a full wipe. I came in (LS event that I arrived late to), told the 3 WHM to go job change and I was able to keep everyone alive without any issues what-so-ever. I am not trying to brag, but the 3 WHM's were pretty awful. Player skill can make or break a job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Simian

Wolfe - we can agree to disagree on the fact that WHM needs natural refresh, but if you are talking about "natural" as in a Job Trait, then only SMN, PLD and BLU have that. RDM gets theirs from spells and gear just like WHM's. SMN did not even get Auto Refresh 2 until level 90 and that is only 2mp/tic. SCH gets their's from a Job Ability that has a timer unlike Job Traits which are always active. RDM is the same with Convert. So in essence, it is not a natural ability. If MP Conserve was adjusted to proc more often with greater reliability, I think you might find that to be better. Or just allow WHM's to perform self Devotion, which for me is 325+mp which is slightly less than a third of my normal overall MP pool.

---

"Natural" means the job by itself with no subjob or other item/equipment. Not just job trait, a spell or job ability would work as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfe

Yeah, kneeling down may not kill you, but the delay it takes to drop to a knee, AS your tank gets hit, now you have to try desperately to stand up and get a cure off before they die. It may not kill you, it sure as hell can kill your tank in a matter of seconds. I would call that a setback.

---

This has been a non-issue for around 9 years. It's all part of the glorious micro management that is WHM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rya

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I think SE gave us Boon/Dagan ... to encourage us to get creative and open-minded. You can't melee everything, but BLM&DRK can't aspir everything. When you -CAN- take full advantage of these WS's, the returns on them are gamebreakingly good! We're talking filling your MP bar way more often than a RDM can convert, inside or outside Abyssea.

Don't get me wrong, I think it would be spiffy to see a "Panaloon Mastery" trait that gave us the Orison-Pantaloons-style cash back rewards on qualifying MP purchases (Converts x% of "Cure" amount to MP) or something.

But, you should at least try killaging before you write it off as useless or irrelevant or whatever. It's really fun and efficient, if you can adapt your playstyle. :)

---

I am not writing it off as useless or irrelevant, WHM are squishy jobs and not meant to DD. That does not mean that you can not DD. I have a friend that is an amazing DDWHM, him and another friend used to run around as RDM & WHM and duo stuff all the time, the WHM was the tank and DD (I know, when you look at the jobs you kind of wonder why the RDM was not the DD). He was a great DDWHM and I am actually working on gearing a DDWHM myself, just because it is fun. WHM will never be able to put out the kind of damage that the real DD jobs can, but it is still fun.

But I still stand by my previous statement, WHM need a natural refresh. They do not have one and I believe that if they did, the job would have so many other possibilities. I know I could use a few WS to recover MP, but if you are going DDWHM, you are trading off a lot of damage for a chance to recover some MP and even then, not that much. If you choose the right mob, yeah you can refill your MP nicely. But it is a crap shoot that is not worth the effort when you can just get a friend to kill the mob in a 1/10th of the time. And unless you have your club skill capped (or close to), you are not going to put out any damage and fighting mobs is going to be insanely slow.

I have a pretty decently geared DDWHM and even a DRG75 with gimp gear can out DD me and usually kill at least 3 times the mobs (tested with a few lolafdrg75). Yes, WHM can DD and recover MP. But in the amount of time that it takes to kill a mob, you might as well just quit.

Get this Anti DD whm sacrilege out of here. You obviously just suck at it if you cant outDDanything as whm if this point in the game.

Using melee as an MP recovery method means you're in "hybrid mode" (not trying to outdamage anyone). Any damage you do is just an added bonus, so don't worry about that. Besides, it's not the Booning that slows your damage potential, it's the constant casting! The fact that you're doing your duties, automatically means you're efficient ... damage is a bonus.

Boon should give you enough MP to keep going (speaking from experience, and even pre-relic), but if you want something guaranteed, use Dagan. It's like Starlight/Moonlight (can't miss, self-target), but gives way more MP! A little swapping should give you at least 250mp (every time!).

Quote:

---

I have a pretty decently geared DDWHM and even a DRG75 with gimp gear can out DD me and usually kill at least 3 times the mobs (tested with a few lolafdrg75). Yes, WHM can DD and recover MP. But in the amount of time that it takes to kill a mob, you might as well just quit.

---

We must play differently, because I never had that much trouble out-damaging gimpy DD's, even before relic or KC. :p

However, I'm not saying everyone should DD on WHM ... it's an uphill battle and a hobby for masochists. No, I'm saying you can melee in a lot of cases (don't compete) just to get MP back, and it's very efficient!

Disclaimer: Most of my experience is pre-abyssea, but you seemed more interested in "outside-abyssea" applications anyway, so I think we're okay there.

Remember: I compared it to Aspir. Just like BLM&DRK, we can't always do this for our MP. :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khajit

Get this Anti DD whm sacrilege out of here. You obviously just suck at it if you cant outDDanything as whm if this point in the game.

---

<3

Most WHM's should learn how to conserve MP in the first place b4 QQ about auto-refesh. DRK and BLM got no auto-refresh too and aspir as refresh is a joke cuz recast timer, possible resist and most important thing: not every mob got a MP pool. Sure it would be nice if every mage got auto-refresh but it isn´t really necessary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfe

I have a pretty decently geared DDWHM and even a DRG75 with gimp gear can out DD me and usually kill at least 3 times the mobs (tested with a few lolafdrg75). Yes, WHM can DD and recover MP. But in the amount of time that it takes to kill a mob, you might as well just quit.

---

Can DRG75 consistently pull off 2-4k WS and get to 100% TP in 3-4 attack rounds? I know it's not useful for everything (The TP spam from KC pretty much probably does more harm than good on NMs) but in xp alliances especially it's a lot of fun and bar a few people with empyrean weapons I've never been beaten on WHM even when main healing and keeping all the DDs hasted.

hMP gear is where it's at. Where the hell are my hMP Dark Staff Trials, SE?

I don't understand why the guy thinks Cure VI is useless. It heals a crap ton, has maybe Cure III enmity, and while Solace is up can apply up to a 400HP Stoneskin or so.

If I tried to DD to get MP back in any of the linkshells I've been in, I'd either be kicked, or I'd be someone who would have to sit out. Abyssea or no.

And again, I haven't seen anywhere where the OP has said that they are having difficulty healing by not knowing how to conserve MP. Just the straight fact that unless under unusual circumstances, we have no natural refresh to us. DD WHM isn't natural. Sure, we have the abilities, but the general accepted/expected WHM will get "WTF r u doin'??" as a response to pulling out a club or staff to get MP back. BLM and RDMs don't get a WTF when they cast aspir or refresh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aaralyn

If I tried to DD to get MP back in any of the linkshells I've been in, I'd either be kicked, or I'd be someone who would have to sit out. Abyssea or no.

And again, I haven't seen anywhere where the OP has said that they are having difficulty healing by not knowing how to conserve MP. Just the straight fact that unless under unusual circumstances, we have no natural refresh to us. DD WHM isn't natural. Sure, we have the abilities, but the general accepted/expected WHM will get "WTF r u doin'??" as a response to pulling out a club or staff to get MP back. BLM and RDMs don't get a WTF when they cast aspir or refresh.

---

Thank you for actually reading the original post. It seems like everyone just wants to bitch without paying any attention. I never said WHM can't get MP back. I said, WHM has no refresh and I want to know why.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Retsujo

I don't understand why the guy thinks Cure VI is useless. It heals a crap ton, has maybe Cure III enmity, and while Solace is up can apply up to a 400HP Stoneskin or so.

---

I don't know either. It does have a bad hp:mp ratio compared to cure5, but it's great having a 2nd big cure to alternate with cure5.

Also my opinion is that the devs understood the lack of refresh, and decided that the empyrean legs were a unique way for whms to conserve their mp, instead of giving them a generic auto-refresh.

I play WHM and I never have problem with MP (Maybe I am a tarutaru) so I don't see any important to give WHM Refresh JT.
You just need to manage your MP and Lately in my opinion SE give a lot to make WHM play easier and better.
This is How Game is fun and challenge...give too much MP make game too easy.
Healer .... Too much MP then just spam cure and cure no point for other jobs to support WHM.
It likes your party almost immortal. (then it's not fun)
Less MP mean you need to control fight timing and think harder for whole party.
a lot of MP you just la la la la la.... (less fun)
Giving MP to WHM it's different compare to giving MP to other jobs. Because WHM is the best job to control dead or alive of PC.
This is my point of view.

WHM doesn't have a natural refresh capability because it is not needed. I'm with everyone else that said it, if you're having MP problems, you're doing your job wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfe

Thank you for actually reading the original post. It seems like everyone just wants to bitch without paying any attention. I never said WHM can't get MP back. I said, WHM has no refresh and I want to know why.

---

I think we're all trying to tell you why...

- We make MP last through conservation / management.
- We can achieve 50% cure potency with 35% stoneskin.
- We have WS's that produce large amounts of MP.
- We have access to most of the things you listed via support job: Convert, Refresh, Auto-Refresh, Sublimation, Aspir, etc.
- We can get up to 7mp/tick refresh from gear.
- We can use HMP to rest 60+ per tick (or more?).

You wanted responses from people who "ACTUALLY play WHM" - and you got us! I've been playing for 7 years, both back-line WHM and front-line WHM, and I love it to pieces!

Do I want another form of refresh to be ours, naturally? YES!

But I don't think you're going to get very many people joining a "WHM NEEDS FRESHES" army, because /SCH leveled the playing field for us ~3 years ago, allowing efficient back-line duties. Then, we got Mystic Boon ~2 years ago, allowing efficient front-line duties (in some cases) and easier soloing. Since then, we have overtaken RDM and others by maintaining unique access to the BigMcLargeHuge cures, while MP became basically unlimited.

When the next wave of updates changes things, we might need some adjustments to remain balanced, but until then I think the polls have shown we're pretty happy. And our happiness is another reason why. :)

Cure VI carries an enmity of equivalent value to Cure IV and Esuna, also the MP cost of Cure VI is more than a V and a III put together and I can achieve more cure back to backing those spells than I can from a non macro'd VI. 250 mp cost makes it out of line with the rest of the cures. Cure V is 135 mp. Reduce the MP cost to like 175 or 180 and then it becomes valuable. Only place I ever use VI is in Abyssea where I am not as conscious of my MP drain as I am outside Abyssea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nacht

I don't know either. It does have a bad hp:mp ratio compared to cure5, but it's great having a 2nd big cure to alternate with cure5.

Also my opinion is that the devs understood the lack of refresh, and decided that the empyrean legs were a unique way for whms to conserve their mp, instead of giving them a generic auto-refresh.

---

Cure VI outside of Abyssea is garbage. The only reason you can safely rely on Cure VI is because of refresh atmas in Abyssea. The MP:HP ratio is horrendous.

And I can see how the EMP pants +2 can be considered a unique way to recover/save MP without directly giving WHM refresh. But, I am stubborn and pigheaded and still want WHM refresh. Maximum Stoneskin amount from an Afflatus Solace cure is 300. Stoneskin value is 25% of cure amount, calculated before hitting the target. But, looking at the base Cure VI MP versus amount cured, the spell is inefficient.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfe

Cure VI outside of Abyssea is garbage. The only reason you can safely rely on Cure VI is because of refresh atmas in Abyssea. The MP:HP ratio is horrendous.

---

It's not much worse than cure4. It's just that cure5 has such a good hp:mp ratio. And no, it doesn't have a use outside abyssea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfe

Cure VI outside of Abyssea is garbage. The only reason you can safely rely on Cure VI is because of refresh atmas in Abyssea. The MP:HP ratio is horrendous.

---

Are you serious? How much do you play WHM outside of abyssea? Cure VI has been a staple since it came out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfe

And while the Galka did not have a problem with MP, did you know that a Galka also has stronger cures than any other race? That does play a big factor.

.

---

Just going to state that Elvaans, not Galka, have the highest cures.

Let's be realistic here.

Bard - Is an enhancer, of course they get a refresh.

Paladin - Fights the front lines of battle so can't /heal

Summoner - Goes through ridiculous MP and can't heal with an Avatar out.

Dancer - Aspir Samba I and II is for the party for jobs like PLD, RDM, BLU, DRK etcetera to keep their MP up.

Red Mage - Pretty much non-existent gear for auto-refresh as opposed to WHM, and intended for use also shouldn't /heal.

Blue Mage - Their spells have crazy MP cost and get this, can't /heal in battle as well

Black Mage - Aspir and Aspir II are Dark moves, plus their spells are crazy expensive and are likely to grab the hate after a big nuke so again, for the time being unable to heal.

Corsair - Enhancer, end off. No MP so they get it only to enhance.

Scholar - Always a bit over-powered, the sublimation upgrade was OTT.

then it's White Mage - Cure V and VI are unlikely to take the hate, they have a massive amount of equipment with auto-refresh which should always be worn when not casting, gear to get MP back from cures, and are easily able to /heal when the need arises.

The refresh on most jobs are easily balanced out.

I think I understand what Wolfe is saying and I agree with him. WHM hasn't recieved any great attributes in comparison to many of the other jobs, I don't think he's arguing the subjob enhancements. What I see is that Spells and Attributes that could normally fall under a healer's category were effectively disbursed to a number of new jobs created by the updates, rendering WHM relatively non-essential in the game. I can't believe that any WHM wouldn't want Auto-Refresh, or Hastega for that matter. Other jobs recieved them, why not the basic healer? ...From what I read, that's all that Wolfe asked, and all he got back was how wonderful you all are.

WHM needs Hatega, not auto-refresh. Only two jobs got that, the ones that actually need it.

No job is supposed to have everything, a WHM is supposed to get Refresh from a BRD, RDM, or COR that is in the party. If you don't have one of those, it is the fault of the party designer, not Square-Enix.

Let's not bring an argument from 2003 into this. Party setup isn't a factor in this topic, really.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jimmie

I think I understand what Wolfe is saying and I agree with him. WHM hasn't recieved any great attributes in comparison to many of the other jobs, I don't think he's arguing the subjob enhancements. What I see is that Spells and Attributes that could normally fall under a healer's category were effectively disbursed to a number of new jobs created by the updates, rendering WHM relatively non-essential in the game. I can't believe that any WHM wouldn't want Auto-Refresh, or Hastega for that matter. Other jobs recieved them, why not the basic healer? ...From what I read, that's all that Wolfe asked, and all he got back was how wonderful you all are.

---

Thank you for seeing my point. I find it to be amazing that there are so few people who actually get what I was saying. All they see is, "screw WHM refresh, you don't need it."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Let's be realistic here.

Bard - Is an enhancer, of course they get a refresh.

Paladin - Fights the front lines of battle so can't /heal

Summoner - Goes through ridiculous MP and can't heal with an Avatar out.

Dancer - Aspir Samba I and II is for the party for jobs like PLD, RDM, BLU, DRK etcetera to keep their MP up.

Red Mage - Pretty much non-existent gear for auto-refresh as opposed to WHM, and intended for use also shouldn't /heal.

Blue Mage - Their spells have crazy MP cost and get this, can't /heal in battle as well

Black Mage - Aspir and Aspir II are Dark moves, plus their spells are crazy expensive and are likely to grab the hate after a big nuke so again, for the time being unable to heal.

Corsair - Enhancer, end off. No MP so they get it only to enhance.

Scholar - Always a bit over-powered, the sublimation upgrade was OTT.

then it's White Mage - Cure V and VI are unlikely to take the hate, they have a massive amount of equipment with auto-refresh which should always be worn when not casting, gear to get MP back from cures, and are easily able to /heal when the need arises.

The refresh on most jobs are easily balanced out.

---

Okay, I'll go with your layout and keep it going.

Bard ~ I know they are a support job, I stated that, and was using it to prove a point.
Paladin ~ If Paladin "can't" heal, why do they have the spell?
Summoner ~ I understand that, it would be broken if they could heal with their avatar out. Still using them to prove my point.
Dancer ~ Yes, it is for other melee jobs that use MP. Again, I stated that to help prove a point. Dancers never use it, because there are more useful dances that people would rather have active. So even though they have it, it is really rather useless.
Red Mage ~ In my personal experience, incredibly over powered but that is neither here nor there and best kept to a different thread.
Blue Mage ~ Again, I understand it is a mage job and believe it or not, most mage jobs go through their MP rather quickly.
Black Mage ~ Not going to repeat myself again.
Corsair ~ Already stated that it is a buffer job, not worth including, again.
Scholar ~ Sublimation was insanely overpowered, but how many people play SCH? Not many, it is one of the least popular jobs, although I have no idea why.

And obviously you did not read the part where I said NATURAL refresh ability, which excludes equipment and support jobs. Every job listed can recover MP naturally, except for WHM. If you pay attention, you can see, it is not as "balanced" as you would like to believe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Retsujo

Let's not bring an argument from 2003 into this. Party setup isn't a factor in this topic, really.

---

No, it's not. If I was making a point about party setups, I would have posted that originally. Why do people keep trying to prove their point by ignoring what I said in the initial post?

"You can get refresh with armor."
"You want refresh? /RDM"
"Just go DD on your WHM and WS for more MP."
"You want refresh, get it from someone else in the party."

No, no, no, and no. Read the original post people, NATURAL REFRESH!

I did say /heal, not heal as in cast Cure.

WHM has Clear Mind V, they /heal as well as SCH, BLM, and SMN when using /heal which they are able to as they don't need to be in the front lines of battle.

This is why PLD and SMN do get auto-refresh, as they can't heal, and WHM is a curer so doesn't have access to spells like Aspir and Refresh as that would then make WHM severely over-powered.

Every job must have it's downfall, otherwise what is the point of multiple jobs, they'd just have one DD and one MAGE. Admittedly as FFXI stands now it does focus on having one DD and one MAGE... MNK & WHM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rya

I think we're all trying to tell you why...

- We make MP last through conservation / management.
- We can achieve 50% cure potency with 35% stoneskin.
- We have WS's that produce large amounts of MP.
- We have access to most of the things you listed via support job: Convert, Refresh, Auto-Refresh, Sublimation, Aspir, etc.
- We can get up to 7mp/tick refresh from gear.
- We can use HMP to rest 60+ per tick (or more?).

You wanted responses from people who "ACTUALLY play WHM" - and you got us! I've been playing for 7 years, both back-line WHM and front-line WHM, and I love it to pieces!

Do I want another form of refresh to be ours, naturally? YES!

But I don't think you're going to get very many people joining a "WHM NEEDS FRESHES" army, because /SCH leveled the playing field for us ~3 years ago, allowing efficient back-line duties. Then, we got Mystic Boon ~2 years ago, allowing efficient front-line duties (in some cases) and easier soloing. Since then, we have overtaken RDM and others by maintaining unique access to the BigMcLargeHuge cures, while MP became basically unlimited.

When the next wave of updates changes things, we might need some adjustments to remain balanced, but until then I think the polls have shown we're pretty happy. And our happiness is another reason why. :)

---

Okay, again, you are not paying attention. Natural Refresh. WithOUT the use of support jobs or armor.

- We make MP last through conservation / management. ~ Based off your support job/armor. Wrong.
- We can achieve 50% cure potency with 35% stoneskin. ~ Based off your support job/armor. Wrong.
- We have WS's that produce large amounts of MP. ~ Based off your weapon and whether or not you hit, unlike Sublimation, Refresh, Convert, Light Arts, all of which are 100% and never miss. Wrong.
- We have access to most of the things you listed via support job: Convert, Refresh, Auto-Refresh, Sublimation, Aspir, etc. ~ Are you paying attention? NATURAL! Wrong.
- We can get up to 7mp/tick refresh from gear. ~ Based off your armor. Wrong.
- We can use HMP to rest 60+ per tick (or more?). ~ Based off your armor. Wrong.

Yeah, great job defeating me except for the part where you FAILED! Read the post. Natural. Refresh. WHM have none.

I have been playing this game since March 14, 2005. I have tanked on the job and done a damn good job (because my THF friend thought it would be funny to Trick Attack onto me). The one thing that has always remained is, why doesn't WHM have some kind of natural refresh? I also want to know why Mithra can eat raw fish and Galka can eat raw meat, but no other race in the game has any kind of race specific ability. I'm not expecting people to rally with me and demand WHM get refresh. I'm waiting for someone to provide some REAL evidence to state why WHM NEVER got refresh to begin with. There are plenty of things in the game that an be explained if you look for it. Why does RDM have Divine Magic when they have no Divine based spells? Because Dia used to be Divine based. Why does DRG have two 2 hour job abilities (listed in the data files)? Because "Call Wyvern" used to be considered their 2 hour ability and it is also why they never had to reprogram anything to prevent the ability from showing up when you /DRG. Here's another one for you, why does Rank 15 exist in the data files, but we can only get to Rank 10?

This is another one of those questions that is left unanswered by Square Enix and I want an answer. Unless someone can provide REAL evidence for why they never got it (like /DRG Call Wyvern), I am going to keep at it and demanding an answer. It may never come, or I may get a GM to reply shortly after posting this. I won't be happy until I can get a definite answer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

I did say /heal, not heal as in cast Cure.

WHM has Clear Mind V, they /heal as well as SCH, BLM, and SMN when using /heal which they are able to as they don't need to be in the front lines of battle.

This is why PLD and SMN do get auto-refresh, as they can't heal, and WHM is a curer so doesn't have access to spells like Aspir and Refresh as that would then make WHM severely over-powered.

Every job must have it's downfall, otherwise what is the point of multiple jobs, they'd just have one DD and one MAGE. Admittedly as FFXI stands now it does focus on having one DD and one MAGE... MNK & WHM.

---

So, according to your logic, SMN is over-powered because,
Clear Mind V:
Summoner Level 70
Black Mage Level 75
Scholar Level 76
White Mage Level 80

Take a look. White Mage gets Clear Mind V last out of all the jobs, before level 76-80 they weren't even considered. Black Mage DOES have access to spells like Aspir and Aspir II, so again, that makes BLM over-powered, just like Summoner.

I do agree that MNK & WHM can run just about everything duo without anyone else. I know this for a fact because my buddy (MNK) and I (WHM) do just that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfe

Okay, again, you are not paying attention. Natural Refresh. WithOUT the use of support jobs or armor.

I won't be happy until I can get a definite answer.

---

Ok fine, let's say SE give you a 2/tick auto-refresh on WHM. Hell, let's make it 3/tick.

If you were running out of MP before then 3/tick auto-refresh (60MP a minute) is not going to save you. You'll still run out of MP. Some of the best WHMs have posted already saying it's not needed but for some reason you continue posting.

You're not going to get your 'definite answer'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfe

So, according to your logic, SMN is over-powered because,
Clear Mind V:
Summoner Level 70
Black Mage Level 75
Scholar Level 76
White Mage Level 80

Take a look. White Mage gets Clear Mind V last out of all the jobs, before level 76-80 they weren't even considered. Black Mage DOES have access to spells like Aspir and Aspir II, so again, that makes BLM over-powered, just like Summoner.

I do agree that MNK & WHM can run just about everything duo without anyone else. I know this for a fact because my buddy (MNK) and I (WHM) do just that.

---

No, they are not.

Lord almighty. Summoner gets auto-refresh because they can't rest/heal like WHM can.

Whether they got Clear Mind V before the cap or not is irrelevant, as they have it now, and before that they'd have had IV so still would heal a lot of MP, and they'd have the time to rest/heal.

Lowman you can rest/heal, and in a party situation you'd have a RDM, BRD or COR giving you Refresh so there is no need whatsoever to NOT include that and equipment, unless you suddenly want to WHM naked.

WHM does not need auto-refresh or a method to give it to themselves when whether you like it or not, they have subjobs to do it. You're never going to be "whm/no subjob" EVER. So taking a subjob out of the equation is like taking job abilities, or traits out, only difference is outside of some occasions NOTHING can remove subjobs, like amnesia can remove abilities.

You genuinely need to stop the Natural crap, who the hell cares, you're going to have a subjob, and you're going to have equipment. This is how the game works, RDM gets Refresh I and II, and have to pay/hunt to learn it, like you pay to use equipment. By that logic RDM doesn't get Refresh "naturally." So they therefore should as well.

Ok Wolfe,

WHM has no natural refresh ability according to your definition...though our definitions of what "natural" is differs a bit....

But the question has now become, "Do you feel they need it?" or has this been a long exercise of overstating the obvious?