99 Empyrean Trials.

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Originally Posted by Zinato

Lets not forget abyssea was once ment to be a once a few days event like dynamis occasionally dropping TE.

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I'm sorry but I really disagree with that statement. If that was the case, why did SE make it work the way it does (lights, TEs etc). Do you really think they underestimated their player base that much, thinking we'd never figure out how to squeeze as much out of Abyssea as possible?


As for the 95 trial, I think I've made it pretty clear previously how I feel about it. And others have brought up a very good point regarding supply. If the "ticket" changes for ra/ex items means what I think it means, it's not as good a change as I thought it was, and it won't include or affect heavy metal plates. At some point, the amount of fights where plates/pouches can drop, will drop. And drop drastically. Price on heavy metal is already on the way up, at least on Asura. It's all looking rather bleak at the moment, to be honest. :(

1500 plates is a terrible number. Anyone who thinks it's fine are people that sat in abyssea for days farming crour to buy the plates which probably meant camping VW zones to buy them at the source. If plates were a 100% drop and didn't take up the "good" slot in VW and actually dropped from more than T3 jeuno/zilart and T6 jeuno, then maybe 1500 would be reasonable.
I would much rather build a relic and leave it at 95 than blow 150-200 mil gil on ONE trial. The current price on siren for riftdross/cinder is 1.5mil x 60 is 90 mil which is still cheaper than the 95 trial.

The relic and mythic 99 trials suck too, but at least if you somehow manage to get 18 people to help you, the weapons get added ws damage. Empyreans get a few base damage and stats.

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Originally Posted by DrStrangelove

1500 is Good. Let's NOT forget all the people who have already done the 1,500. If people are getting these done what is the PROBLEM!!

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(removed useless font)
30000 alex is good, Let's not forget all the people who have already done the 30k.......

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Originally Posted by DrStrangelove

1500 is Good. Let's NOT forget all the people who have already done the 1,500. If people are getting these done what is the PROBLEM!!

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How the hell did I miss this post lol.

Yeah by all means let's not forget ALL the people who voluntarily blew 150+ mil gil on this trial. And seriously, how many do you think have completed the 95 stage across all servers compared to the total number of empyrean weapon owners? Not to mention the fact that many players have multiple empyrean weapons.

Love such rubbish coming from a level 1 mule.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

Yeah by all means let's not forget ALL the people who voluntarily blew 150+ mil gil on this trial. And seriously, how many do you think have completed the 95 stage across all servers compared to the total number of empyrean weapon owners? Not to mention the fact that many players have multiple empyrean weapons.

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You are sooo right. There are over 16,000 empyreans. That's how easy and desirable they really are. In a few months they have dwarfed what relics took 8 years to get.

That's just super DESIRABLE.

As you said, any one who wants to, get multiples of these. There are people with 10 or more of these. In a few months.

EASY PREEZY.

Empys are excellent weapons at 90, which is where anyone who wants to can easily get the weapon.

FOR ZERO COST.


Now. lets wah-wah-wah, to get the 95 and 99 trials made easy preezy too.

Let's not...SE has it right. Let's finally put some work into the empy so IF we want to have 12 level 99 empyreans we have to work for it.

No more HANDOUTS!!

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Originally Posted by Kysaiana

I would much rather build a relic and leave it at 95 than blow 150-200 mil gil on ONE trial.

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I agree! Then that's what you should do.

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Originally Posted by Erics

You do know relics are a lot cheaper then empy's HMP stage don't you?

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Relics currency $120 million and umbrals $100 million = $220 million

Mythics $300 million + PW drops

Empys $150 million plates and $60 million rift = $210 million

I'm not sure what math you are using. $300 million > $220 million > $210 million where I live.

Now let's all agree....

EMPYS are already far cheaper to make than mythics and relics.

Personally, (Incoming Opinion) I think the WS on empyrean should be locked in abyssea only until stage 95 is complete. That would put empyrean on par with relic and mythic the way it should be. As it is even with the 1500 plates players have little to no reason to invest in empyrean what was required in the other super weapons. The fact there are more Kinnagi + Almace then all relic and more Empy scythes then all mythic is just sad. And the worst part is these weapons only have to be at 90 to complete with 99 versions of the other two. Make that adjustment and sure cut dross/cinder to 5-10.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Drop the HMP requirement to 150 and they will be 1mil each within 6 hours. The good news would be you could actually get 150 HMPs just from spamming VW for a few weeks.

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There are people who got the 1,500 plates done in a month. It's not hard to do. If you want to....

Unless you think people are paying 80mil for a single marrow you missed the post about it being 5 instead of 20.

So to correct you:

120 + 100 = 220
150 + 60 = 210 (not including the opportunity cost of Emp items which is hard to quantify cause there aren't always buyers.)

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Originally Posted by Zinato

...these weapons only have to be at 90 to complete with 99 versions of the other two.

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Exactly. Easy to make to 90, already a super weapon and now there are 16,000 empyreans.

There is nothing here to fix. 1,500 plates and 60 rift drops are fine.

And people have gotten relics finished in a month, what's your point?

The only Empyreans with an advantage over relic counterparts at 95 are Ukonvasara, Kannagi (debateable with Shun, haven't checked math), Almace, Masamune, and Verethragna (Almost gone with Shijin Spiral's release). Armageddon is only better for Cor since they can't use relic, same with Twash for Dnc. Daurdabla and Gjaller don't actually compete with each other unless you only go for one, in which cause Daurdabla.

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Originally Posted by DrStrangelove

There are people who got the 1,500 plates done in a month. It's not hard to do. If you want to....

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What's your point? My post is about the fact that lowering the requirement to 150 would push the demand up so high because it would be seen as attainable by that many more people. The up side would be that you actually could farm ALL your own plates through VW if you didn't want to spend gil on them. You know, just like relics. Pay exuberant amounts of money or put in some real work.

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Originally Posted by DrStrangelove

Relics currency $120 million and umbrals $400 million = $520 million

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Sure, because the average joe working on a relic these days buys all the currency, right? Somehow I don't think so, lol.

But you know what? I don't think there's much point in arguing with you, you're either just a massive troll, or you might be one of those relic holders who got their weapon loooong before neo-dynamis and you're just butthurt that the easy-to-get empyrean counterpart crushes your relic.

The facts are these: If you want to finish this trial by getting the vast majority of plates without buying them, there is no telling how long it will take before you finish, it could easily be 1 year if not more. All depending on several things - luck as far as drops go, and your ability to spam the right voidwatch fights. You'll run out of stones fast. You'll run out of IS/CP/AN fast. You then have to do a LOT of campaign, being the most effective way of obtaining voiddust, to keep up. And that will slow you down as far as spamming voidwatch goes, adding to the total amount of time it'll take you to finish. Or, you need to buy voiddust, which will make each set of fights cost you around 100k gil. And all this for ONE SINGLE STAGE, for taking your weapon from lvl 90 to lvl 95.


If you can't see what a massive problem the 1500 heavy metal plates pose for a lot of people, and the fact that it might end up being near impossible to finish the trial in the not-too-distant future due to lack of supply, then I don't know if there's anything else I or anyone else can tell you to make you change your view on this.


Edit: wtf @ 400mil for the umbral marrows?

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

If you can't see what a massive problem the 1500 heavy metal plates pose for a lot of people, and the fact that it might end up being near impossible to finish the trial in the not-too-distant future due to lack of supply, then I don't know if there's anything else I or anyone else can tell you to make you change your view on this.

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People were done with 1,500 plates 2+ months ago. On my server people are done on the 99. Rift drops are in dozens of mules bazaars while other people are out spamming the VW fights to get their own.

I'm not sure what problem you are talking about...

Oh wait....you mean the problem that all 16,000 empyreans can't be done easily or cheaply in a few weeks?

That's not a problem. EVERY EMPYREAN IS NOT GOING TO MAKE IT TO 99.

Get used to that idea and this will all make sense.

Everyone's not going to have Toci's harness or Coruscanti or 16 relics or20 mythics. It's fine if they don't.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

What's your point? My post is about the fact that lowering the requirement to 150 would push the demand up so high because it would be seen as attainable by that many more people. The up side would be that you actually could farm ALL your own plates through VW if you didn't want to spend gil on them. You know, just like relics. Pay exuberant amounts of money or put in some real work.

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Everyone is not supposed to have a 99 empyrean. It's not like running water or heat; it's not a basic minimum requirement to have fun or be a success in final fantasy.

Dozens, if not hundreds have empys have already been upgraded to 95. It does no one any good to screw them over by now dropping the requirement to 150. Go out, work and get your empy to 95 IF YOU CARE SO MUCH ABOUT IT.

It's not hard.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

Edit: wtf @ 400mil for the umbral marrows?

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Good catch. (/embarassed)

My bad. I was using 20 x $20 million, not 5 x $20 million. It's still more than or equal to empys depends on server.

The $20 million is probably too low for umbrals, but that is the lowest price people are posting it should sell for, if it ever gets sold.

In reality, most relics will never be able to get to 99, because, ADL won't be done that much. Unlike VW mobs, he can't be spammed 24/7.

Anyone can, if they want to, make a relic. In fact, they can solo it. They can get all the currency they need on their own, they don't have to depend on other people for it. They can do dynamis every day for as long as it takes them to finish - solo. They can solo much of the trials past 75, and only need the help from a couple of friends to take their relic to 95. They actually don't have to spend more than a few k gil to get a level 95 relic (those few k being for upgrade items). And all of that doesn't even have to take very long at all.

Anyone wanting to take their empyrean from 90 to 95, need either a) LOTS of time and luck and patience, or b) a shitton of gil. And either way, they depend on enough people doing the appropriate voidwatch fights so they can join or make runs, or buy plates.

And on Asura, you'll be quite lucky to find plates for 100k. 130k or more seem to be the norm these days. 195mil+ to upgrade one weapon ONE stage, sounds quite ok to you I guess?


Edit: for the record, I'm not saying SE should lower the requirement to 150 plates. That would actually screw me over too. What I'm saying though, is that they should increase the supply substantially.

The fuck? lolFFXIAH but still, there's what a handful of confirmed 95 empyreans across all servers? You call that as 'people were done with HMPs'? Are you high?

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

Anyone can, if they want to, make a relic. In fact, they can solo it. They can get all the currency they need on their own, they don't have to depend on other people for it. They can do dynamis every day for as long as it takes them to finish - solo. They can solo much of the trials past 75, and only need the help from a couple of friends to take their relic to 95. They actually don't have to spend more than a few k gil to get a level 95 relic (those few k being for upgrade items). And all of that doesn't even have to take very long at all.

Anyone wanting to take their empyrean from 90 to 95, need either a) LOTS of time and luck and patience, or b) a shitton of gil. And either way, they depend on enough people doing the appropriate voidwatch fights so they can join or make runs, or buy plates.

And on Asura, you'll be quite lucky to find plates for 100k. 130k or more seem to be the norm these days. 195mil to upgrade one weapon ONE stage, sounds quite ok to you I guess?

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The proof is in the pudding!

Using FFXI's census:

8 years 4,000 relics (500/year)
i year, 12,000 empyreans (12,000 / year)

So your point was that relics are easy to do and cheap, and that empys are hard to do and expensive. Pudding doesn't taste the way you promised.


Here is what you should say:

EMPYs are easy to do and cheaper than relics. See, that matches the pudding exactly.

Now, lets add this:

EMPYs are easy to do and cheaper than relics, and we want them to be made even cheaper and easier.

Voila! This is the thread we are in!!

Digressing!

Recap, Dev Bros! Lower the 1500 plate requirement to something reasonable. 500 for the upper limits and 150 for those of us who are blatantly pointing out what natural progression should have been! If this is not acceptable then please raise the base amount within the heavy metal plate pouches! Seriously, popping one and getting 3 plates is beyond frustration. Use the cotton pouch approach, no less than 10 and up to the possibility of 25. I could even argue for the linen pouch approach of upwards to 99, but do something about it. Either reduction or increase of pouch output.

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by DrStrangelove

The proof is in the pudding!

Using FFXI's census:

8 years 4,000 relics (500/year)
i year, 12,000 empyreans (12,000 / year)

So your point was that relics are easy to do and cheap, and that empys are hard to do and expensive. Pudding doesn't taste the way you promised.

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Comparing the work/gil needed for a relic back before Abyssea and neo-dynamis, to the work/gil needed to make an empyrean, is pointless. There were no such thing as empyrean weapons back then.

I'm comparing what's needed to obtain a level 95 relic today with what's needed for a level 95 empyrean weapon. Just in case that totally escaped you.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

Comparing the work/gil needed for a relic back before Abyssea and neo-dynamis, to the work/gil needed to make an empyrean, is pointless. There were no such thing as empyrean weapons back then.

I'm comparing what's needed to obtain a level 95 relic today with what's needed for a level 95 empyrean weapon. Just in case that totally escaped you.

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Right-o! Let's not let the facts divert our attention!

Empyreans can be done from start to finish solo or at most duo. This is well documented all over every FFXI website with people explaining exactly how they did it. So the point is moot.

The only real point is that empys and relics and mythics done solo:

1) take longest for mythics and next longest for relics. So empys don't need to be made easier
2) are most expensive for mythics and next for relics. So empys don't need to be made less expensive.

There....you are right! We've summed up the issue nicely.

Kudos to SE for handing this well this time around. It took some work, but it finally makes sense.

Doing anything to make empys EASIER and CHEAPER now would not only be a a grand slap in the face to the hundreds of level 95 empys and many 99 empys, but a complete error regarding relics and mythics.

EMPYS are easy preezy to 90 that can be soloed/duoed quickly with no gil. They are excellent weapons at that point. Should anyone want to take the empys to 95 or 99, they would expect to work for it and not be given another easy road to the finish line.

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Originally Posted by DrStrangelove

Everyone is not supposed to have a 99 empyrean. It's not like running water or heat; it's not a basic minimum requirement to have fun or be a success in final fantasy.

Dozens, if not hundreds have empys have already been upgraded to 95. It does no one any good to screw them over by now dropping the requirement to 150. Go out, work and get your empy to 95 IF YOU CARE SO MUCH ABOUT IT.

It's not hard.

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....There's clearly something wrong with you.

It's pretty clear he's just trolling right now.

Sounds to me Tamao is less about a reduction and more saying. VW sucks players don't want to do it, please make this content relevant so we can farm/buy plates. <- (Blunt version) I think the DEVs plan to add HMP to future VW/content would be shocking even by their standards not to.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

The fuck? lolFFXIAH but still, there's what a handful of confirmed 95 empyreans across all servers? You call that as 'people were done with HMPs'? Are you high?

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You're joking right?

SE knows how many there are.

On my server there are single linkshells with 3 or 4 level 95 empys. People have been posting level 95 empys on BG since September. So clearly there are more than a 'handful' across all servers.

He's not exactly trolling is he empys are free and easy to get to 90 at which point they are great weapons with a quality aftermath and in most cases a quality weapon skill, i think the ws and aftermath should have been unlocked on the 95 and 99 version but thats another story.

Ok that aside by the time both weapons are 99 relics will have cost more gil then empys again, so what exactly is the problem here ? Sure a lot of people may spend 3 months in dyna soloing there relics as far as they can but there is a lot of people who buy up currency still as i know for one i couldn't be arsed to spam dyna everyday it's a bore fest.

Make it so hmp drop a lot more but there is no need to lower the amount needed.

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Originally Posted by DrStrangelove

Doing anything to make empys EASIER and CHEAPER now would not only be a a grand slap in the face to the hundreds of level 95 empys and many 99 empys, but a complete error regarding relics and mythics.

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Hundreds of level 95 empys? Really? Really????

And PLEASE show me ONE SINGLE level 99 empyrean weapon on ANY live server. Guess what? You can't.


Troll more please.

As I've said before, the only argument for 1500/60 is that people are still spamming VW right now. Well maybe not now anymore... The number of VW shouts is essentially nothing now, and the few groups that shout end up dying at 5/18. I joined a JP Akvan shout group that shouted for an hour and ended up with 2 PLD, a BST, a RDM, and 2 BRDs. Lovely.

I realize this is really more a critique of VW than the trial but I feel that the half of the trial's difficulty is the supply of trial items.

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Originally Posted by newmonkey

Make it so hmp drop FROM a lot more PLACES but there is no need to lower the amount needed.

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The caps are how I would augment that. but I mostly agree even if my version isn't the case, Newmonkey's original method isn't a bad second place.

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Originally Posted by Zinato

Sounds to me Tamao is less about a reduction and more saying. VW sucks players don't want to do it, please make this content relevant so we can farm/buy plates. <- (Blunt version) I think the DEVs plan to add HMP to future VW/content would be shocking even by their standards not to.

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This is a completely different point and one well worth supporting. Is the content relevant for people to do VW where plates and rift items fall?

That is the same issue for PW and ADL. So, yes, a correct thread would be:

SE please tell us how you plan to keep these mobs relevant so supply for super weapons does not dwindle.

This is what SE should be looking at. Asking that an easy to make weapon be made easier after people are already making them is NOT a winning strategy.

No one reduced the requirements for relics and mythics (excluding the one quick change).

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Originally Posted by detlef

As I've said before, the only argument for 1500/60 is that people are still spamming VW right now. Well maybe not now anymore... The number of VW shouts is essentially nothing now, and the few groups that shout end up dying at 5/18. I joined a JP Akvan shout group that shouted for an hour and ended up with 2 PLD, a BST, a RDM, and 2 BRDs. Lovely.

I realize this is really more a critique of VW than the trial but I feel that the half of the trial's difficulty is the supply of trial items.

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Exactly. This trial has the potential of becoming impossible to finish due to decreasing interest in voidwatch, meaning the supply of heavy metal plates will drop to near nothing. And as this thread's #1 troll fails to understand, that is my one main problem with trial. People who want to upgrade their empyrean weapon to 95, cannot go solo some voidwatch fights for plates.

If there's hundreds and hundreds of 95 emps why are there only a handful of confirmed 95 ones versus 90s?

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

Exactly. This trial has the potential of becoming impossible to finish due to decreasing interest in voidwatch, meaning the supply of heavy metal plates will drop to near nothing. And as this thread's #1 troll fails to understand, that is my one main problem with trial. People who want to upgrade their empyrean weapon to 95, cannot go solo some voidwatch fights for plates.

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Please don't call me a troll, since a) I'm not and b) my parents weren't trolls. I have a relic and an empy. I've done a lot of work to get both and I've helped a lot of people to get theirs. The posts I'm making are factual and correct and not intended to cause a fight. Their my opinion.

You seem to think that if someone does not agree with, that calling them a name, wins the argument. Reminds me of third grade.

After you edit your post, I will be able to give you a thumbs up.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

If there's hundreds and hundreds of 95 emps why are there only a handful of confirmed 95 ones versus 90s?

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I'm not sure of what you mean by 'confirmed." There are 95's posted on Blue Gartr and they have been routinely posted since September. There are LS's with several.

Why would you think that only a handful exist?

Compared to the 90 versions yes, only a handful of 95s exist. There is no 'hundreds and hundreds' of 95s. Stop exaggerating.

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Originally Posted by DrStrangelove

Please don't call me a troll, since a) I'm not and b) my parents weren't trolls.

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You're posting bullcrap from a level 1 character, hi, you're a troll.

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Originally Posted by DrStrangelove

Please don't call me a troll, since a) I'm not and b) my parents weren't trolls. You seem to think that if someone does not agree with, that calling them a name, wins the argument. Reminds me of third grade.

After you edit your post, I will be able to give you a thumbs up.

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I'm calling you a troll since you come here, posting anonymously, seemingly only posting your opinions on the matter to create arguments. And making claims like there being "hundreds of 95 empyreans" and that you know of linkshells with several 95 empyreans. Anyone can make claims like that. Makes it even easier when you're on a level 1 mule. Oh and the fact that you apparently ignore half of what others say doesn't help your case.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

You're posting bullcrap from a level 1 character, hi, you're a troll.

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Bull crap is your opinion. Your posts are bull crap, so I guess that makes you a troll too.

Oh but wait...this is rich. If you are level 1, then you are a troll. I see...level 99 characters CAN'T be trolls.


I looked it up...nope sorry. The definition of troll does not include the character level.

So, we're both trolls. We both post bull crap. In fact, since almost every post that everyone makes is considered bullcrap by someone, then everyone is a troll.

You're a real piece of work.