SMN adjustments....seriously?

Camate, What ever became of Cait-sith and Atomos and is there a specific reason why we haven't received any decent new Blood Pact: Rage abilities since 75 cap?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tawnee

Camate, What ever became of Cait-sith and Atomos and is there a specific reason why we haven't received any decent new Blood Pact: Rage abilities since 75 cap?

---

because SE doesnt like giving SMN nice things. And sadly that dev response didnt help anything, its still a fricken useless adjustment, not even sure why they bothered with it...or doing it first.

BUT GAIS THE ELEMENTAL AVATARS ARE SO SUPA KAWAII DESU ^_____^ CAIT SITH & ATMOS ARE BAKAS!

*headdesk*

This among many other reason is why so many are quitting. This is a load of bullshit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Septimus

Let's just stop here.

If you are a serious SMN you have the Magian avatar perpetuation staves to at least level 90 (or a Nirvana if you are super, super cereal) meaning that your Elemental Spirits are free or give you MP back. Elemental Spirit merits are wholly unnecessary.

---

Or, I'm in the process of working on Nirvana, and I'm not wasting my time on 7~8 staves that, combined, are still nothing compared to Nirvana.

Just finished the assault journals portion, getting Sarameya Hide on Friday (and already have Tinnin's Fang), got less than 30K ichor to go, working on gil hording for Alexandrite, and nearly 1/3 done with Nyzul tokens.

And I'm not lugging around 8 bullshit auction house staves for SMN either. Bahamut's Staff is holding me over till I get Nirvana.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edyth

Or, I'm in the process of working on Nirvana, and I'm not wasting my time on 7~8 staves that, combined, are still nothing compared to Nirvana.

Just finished the assault journals portion, getting Sarameya Hide on Friday (and already have Tinnin's Fang), got less than 30K ichor to go, working on gil hording for Alexandrite, and nearly 1/3 done with Nyzul tokens.

And I'm not lugging around 8 bullshit auction house staves for SMN either. Bahamut's Staff is holding me over till I get Nirvana.

---

Then you're almost 10% Complete with it! Considering Alexandrite is going to be your biggest obstacle >_>

Also, I had Twilight, Triplus, and Upgrade Kila's even though i was working on Mandau, and now most of those weapons are useless. Having a long term goal is no excuse for being gimp right now :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Then you're almost 10% Complete with it! Considering Alexandrite is going to be your biggest obstacle >_>

Also, I had Twilight, Triplus, and Upgrade Kila's even though i was working on Mandau, and now most of those weapons are useless. Having a long term goal is no excuse for being gimp right now :)

---

Maybe this is somewhat hypocritical coming from someone working on a mythic weapon, but there's more to life than FFXI. And there's more to life than this forum, Ms. 2,675 Posts.

In real life, you invest money into things that are worthwhile. In this game, I'm investing time into things that are worthwhile. Nirvana is enough hours down the drain as it is. I don't need to do 7~8 staves whose ultimate destiny is to be dropped.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edyth

Maybe this is somewhat hypocritical coming from someone working on a mythic weapon, but there's more to life than FFXI. And there's more to life than this forum, Ms. 2,675 Posts.

In real life, you invest money into things that are worthwhile. In this game, I'm investing time into things that are worthwhile. Nirvana is enough hours down the drain as it is. I don't need to do 7~8 staves whose ultimate destiny is to be dropped.

---

Its hypocritical. I think it also shows you don't really have a valid argument. you're attempting to pull a RL Card based on someones post count. You've pretty much just lost any shred of validity you had left.

Considering I have a full time job, and still managed to work on these things, My work did slow my progress, but I didn't let a long term goal get in the way of my short-term performance. If you're playing FFXI Enough to consider Nirvana a goal, you really have no right to attempt to throw out a RL Card.

Because long term goals are not a valid excuse at being mediocre in the present. Most of the Elemental staves (2-3 excused...) Are really rather simple to get. How do i know this? I've helped a friend make a few of them, and she's working on Nirvana as well.

Coincidental eh?

You're not going to have a functional Nirvana for a very long time, Even longer if you don't play often, as you describe clearly. While i understand the idea of not wanting the Staves because of Nirvana, That is an incredibly long term goal, The Elemental Trial Staves would serve you a good long time before you got a Nirvana 95/99.

And you don't really need all 8, just work on a few important ones. Like Thunder, and Ice. The two most used Avatars. This is a reachable Short-Term Goal to hold you over during your Long-Term plan.

Hell, Even a Bahamut's Staff or Fay Crozier would be a worth-while short-term investment. Though the Perp- Staves from *Trials* are much more potent, thus allow you to use different gear-sets for Avatar Idle rather than piling on the Perp-.

Now, I'd be remiss if i didn't add, I feel the Perp Staves are less than important in todays Vana'diel, With voidwatch being MP-Item Heavy, and so forth. So in a way, i Feel that aren't a very worthwhile goal, However, the core of your reasoning is what my replies are directed too. If you had said "I don't want to get them because MP is really not an issue" i'd of be like "Okay then". but your Reasoning is more "I don't want too and you have no real life for thinking its possible", Which is where our problems begin :)

Also I'm a guy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Personally, I think revamping spirits is a wasted effort since the avatars are what summoner is really about, but I do recognize that some people have an infatuation with them for some reason and it shouldn't be ignored entirely.

---

I personally have been wanting to use spirits to fight with since I first unlocked SMN many years ago. The fact remains they deal strong elemental damage and have damage resistance, just like the normal elementals. They're a lot more useful than people give them credit for but they have terrible, terrible AI controlling them. Like them or not, they're a part of the job and should be used more often than they should.

Please S-E, continue working on strengthening elemental spirits, and consider revamping them like you did BST jug pets... let us control what spells they cast on a charge system, and increase their spell list; this alone would make them not only more useful but more desirable in combat.

Their Nukes are so terrible its not worth the MP Cost to keep them out - Even if they were free :P

I wouldn't mind a Strengthening of Spirits, as more of a bonus Update, But people would be a little upset if its the only SMN update they got.

Still, Light spirit has Potential, If its AI Was better/More Controlled.

1) Scrap the enfeebles from elementals.
2) Let them cast either their highest tier AM, I-V nuke or aga as the only randomness.
3) Give them some MAB.
4) Allow the timer to run as low as 15 seconds (not sure what it caps at without Astral Flow right now)

Then and only then would it be worth using the spirits to nuke. BP rage > BP ward > release > spirit for 2 nukes > Avatar BP again.

um.... does this merit change comes with the whole new spell list for elemental spirits? Becoz my spirits pet still doesn't cast Tier 5 elemental magic or AM2. nor the light spirit do cure 5 or cure 6. My SMN magic skill is 410 base with merit and equipments (I know I am not capped yet v.v), no way my skill is hindering the spell cast level.

BTW are we going to get the elemental from abyssea? they seem to have more spell than the spirits I currently have.

And ..... for crying over 7 years on SMN. Will we have the slightest chance to command our spirit to cast spell?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyandra

I personally have been wanting to use spirits to fight with since I first unlocked SMN many years ago. The fact remains they deal strong elemental damage and have damage resistance, just like the normal elementals. They're a lot more useful than people give them credit for but they have terrible, terrible AI controlling them. Like them or not, they're a part of the job and should be used more often than they should.

Please S-E, continue working on strengthening elemental spirits, and consider revamping them like you did BST jug pets... let us control what spells they cast on a charge system, and increase their spell list; this alone would make them not only more useful but more desirable in combat.

---

i dont see why having a charge system would not work, seems fine by me. I was fiddling with a couple elements last night (skill is 412~) and after 6 mins my light spirit cast flash...then while fighting Dragua (sp? that earth dragon in abyssea) i let my Wind spirit poke for around 10 mins....and all i got was gravity out of it.

in conclusion....they still blow even if they cost nothing to have out. The one thing the main avatars dont do so well....is nuke, so why not make the spirits our nuke group?

but i know im shouting at a wall called SE, im not expecting much of anything from them anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings.

I would like to share a bit of information about our process for all adjustments, not just adjustments for summoner. Regarding the information we reveal about proposed changes and changes to the test server, we are only revealing specs that have become possible to implement, in the order that they have become possible. This means that the changes we announce are not the only changes that we have in mind. Please keep in mind that it is very possible that we are looking into changes that we are not yet at a point where we can announce them.

There are many adjustments that we must look into patiently and there are many adjustments that need a long time to implement. As a result, there may be times where we are not able to reveal everything that is taking place, but this does not mean that nothing is being worked on. We are constantly evaluating new adjustments.

---

I presumed all these are done because of 'BALANCE' issue right?

SE, how about just not give us crap for adjustments and instead spent the resources on things that are far more important. If you're going to give us crap like this, I rather you just leave us along and work on other stuff that might benefit some other job (no the PLD JA adj isn't it either and I dont have PLD leveled).

Who the hell really is running the development now? Is there even vision/roadmap that you guys are following?

Also, let me tell you something that most ppl really want to hear. Tell us these vision/roadmap that you guys intended on doing. This isn't 2004 anymore and people want to see a clear layed out roadmap.

Love the response Camate! I'll try to be constructive here. "We post what we can implement" leaves SMN in the dark all the time. You are telling everyone that you've invented butter, but not the bread. No one eats *just the butter*.

SE should be well aware that spirits are restricted to code that ends at L75ish. SE is likely working in that code. Next time, I recommend they wait until they finish the real programming before announcing they also changed one number on one merit.

"Enjoy your butter!"... Now what?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sonshou

um.... does this merit change comes with the whole new spell list for elemental spirits? Becoz my spirits pet still doesn't cast Tier 5 elemental magic or AM2. nor the light spirit do cure 5 or cure 6. My SMN magic skill is 410 base with merit and equipments (I know I am not capped yet v.v), no way my skill is hindering the spell cast level.

---

Just pointing out, LightSpirit has had Cure V since Level 75. And SE will never give Spirits AM2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Also I'm a guy.

---

All of my weird, tingly feelings are sudden more slightly weird and slightly less tingly. Oh, wait a minute. They're a little more tingly, actually.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dallas

You are telling everyone that you've invented butter, but not the bread. No one eats *just the butter*.

---

[SIZE="7"]
WORKING[/SIZE]
http://www.greatplainsexaminer.com/w...er-300x300.jpg
[SIZE="7"]AS INTENDED.[/SIZE]

lol that picture is priceless...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sonshou

um.... does this merit change comes with the whole new spell list for elemental spirits? Becoz my spirits pet still doesn't cast Tier 5 elemental magic or AM2. nor the light spirit do cure 5 or cure 6. My SMN magic skill is 410 base with merit and equipments (I know I am not capped yet v.v), no way my skill is hindering the spell cast level.

---

No, sorry, it doesn't. I was listing what SE should make happen

Awesome, Spank! LOL

Got some information from the development team that they would like to hear feedback on.

Regarding “reduced elemental MP cost,” we decided to implement this given that we’re planning on adjusting elementals in the future, as we mentioned previously.

At first, we were considering changing “reduced elemental MP cost” to a totally different effect, “reduced summoning casting time,” so the possibility exists that we change it to this.

However, please note that we wouldn’t use “reduced elemental MP cost” if we switch to “reduced summoning casting time” and that we will need some time to implement this change.

Please let us know your feedback on this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

Got some information from the development team that they would like to hear feedback on.

Regarding “reduced elemental MP cost,” we decided to implement this given that we’re planning on adjusting elementals in the future, as we mentioned previously.

At first, we were considering changing “reduced elemental MP cost” to a totally different effect, “reduced summoning casting time,” so the possibility exists that we change it to this.

However, please note that we wouldn’t use “reduced elemental MP cost” if we switch to “reduced summoning casting time” and that we will need some time to implement this change.

Please let us know your feedback on this.

---

Then how about giving us some ideas (roadmap would be nice) as to what changes you guys are thinking for the Spirits? As long as these spirits has no controllable methods on what they cast and also getting the higher level nukes, they're useless (IMO).

Once we know what plan of changes to the spirits will be, we'll have a better understandings and can provide much better feedback. As it stand alone without knowing how these spirits changes will be, reducing elemental mp cost is essentially useless to majority of SMN players.

I'd be happy with all effort that is going into elemental adjustments being moved to other aspects of the job instead; "reduced summoning casting time" is much more preferable than MP cost.

Dreamin's right though, it's dependent on what adjustments are being made to elementals. If it's just adding more spells, then no, it's not worth keeping "reduced elemental MP cost" around. However if elementals are undergoing the same overhaul that Puppetmaster automatons did, then maybe it is worth keeping around.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

Got some information from the development team that they would like to hear feedback on.

Regarding “reduced elemental MP cost,” we decided to implement this given that we’re planning on adjusting elementals in the future, as we mentioned previously.

At first, we were considering changing “reduced elemental MP cost” to a totally different effect, “reduced summoning casting time,” so the possibility exists that we change it to this.

However, please note that we wouldn’t use “reduced elemental MP cost” if we switch to “reduced summoning casting time” and that we will need some time to implement this change.

Please let us know your feedback on this.

---

It's almost impossible to say which would be better without knowing how spirits will be changed in the future.

As Spirits are now, it would be more useful to reduce the casting time. It would still be pretty pointless, but at least it's not currently possible to cap casting time reduction with other stuff already.

My vote is to change the merit to casting time, as long as SE addresses the following issue:

Whenever the SMN uses the assault command, or the retreat command, the casting timer resets. This makes it impossible to use spirits offensively which is awful considering only the dark spirit is defensive. Remove this penalty, and then the timer will mean something. Only with this change will any mp cost be justified.

If this penalty must remain, the spirits should simply be free.

While we're at it, spirits should be able to nuke a target mob without engaging it.

I have to see what change is going to implement on the elemental spirits before I can decide which one is better.

If, through seems not likely to happen, the change is to increase the degree of control over the elemental spirits, then I say go ahead on elemental spirit cost.

If the change is only regarding the spell list and elemental behavior, then I say reduce cast time is more useful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

At first, we were considering changing “reduced elemental MP cost” to a totally different effect, “reduced summoning casting time,” so the possibility exists that we change it to this.

However, please note that we wouldn’t use “reduced elemental MP cost” if we switch to “reduced summoning casting time” and that we will need some time to implement this change.

Please let us know your feedback on this.

---

I would love to merit that.

However, I would not merit it over Avatar Attack/MAB, so yea...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dallas

Whenever the SMN uses the assault command, or the retreat command, the casting timer resets. This makes it impossible to use spirits offensively which is awful considering only the dark spirit is defensive. Remove this penalty, and then the timer will mean something. Only with this change will any mp cost be justified.

---

While we're in a position where the devs might read this... Can you also increase the range in which Summoner's command their avatar (i.e. Assault, Blood Pact) to that of casting magic? The majority of the time I die during Voidwatch is due to being within AoE range (but at the max range for commanding my avatar).

Frankly I'd love the idea of reduced casting time.

Let it be known that perpetuation costs are not much of an issue anymore. Nobody needs to merit the perp cost of spirits down even if they want to use them.

I have another suggestion for SMN as well that hasn't been addressed: Have us commanding our pets to Assault NOT break Invisible. BST's ability Sic doesn't break Invisible and if you go into lore they would have to point and say what to attack, so Sic should break Sneak AND Invisible.

SMN's ability Assault is done telepathically: I.E. There's no need to verbal or visual aid(which the monsters BSTs control would require) for the Avatars, seeing as their minds are linked with ours.

would the reduced summon casting time apply to all avatars? or just spirits? either way that sounds pretty lame. anything soloable for smn shouldnt make it to you before you can possibly recast an avatar. as for spirit perp, i wouldn't ever merit that either unless spirits start getting a lot better, although perp-15 for anything is pretty darn sweet.

I still wouldn't merit it either way.

5/5 Attack and Magic Attack :|

How about scrapping this idea, and put more effort into getting us Cait Sith and Atomos quicker

how about scrapping those jokes for summons and give us something good!

Quote:

---

I have another suggestion for SMN as well that hasn't been addressed: Have us commanding our pets to Assault NOT break Invisible.

---

Sic really should break invisible, because all offensive actions on an enemy, not just assault but any blood pact, strip invisible.

SMN would be drastically more powerful if it could attack and do damage without breaking invisible. I didn't even know BSTs could use offensive Sics, but it seems to me like that should be changed (Sorry!). No other job can attack while invisible, so I don't see how that's fair.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I still wouldn't merit it either way.

5/5 Attack and Magic Attack :|

---

Seconded.

Faster summoning cast time would increase our DoT very marginally as the avatar would get maybe an extra swing on the mob. In those 'oh sh1t' moments when you get agro/your avatar gets 1-shotted or whatever and you're too close to cast an avatar, you cast a spirit because they have low cast time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sargent

Just pointing out, LightSpirit has had Cure V since Level 75. And SE will never give Spirits AM2

---

lol for some reason most people don't know that!

Another thing i want to point out is that most people don't know how to access certain spells from their spirits. if you haste yourself and regen yourself then you get buffs or heals. if you face your spirit's 'face' to another player (monkey in the middle) then the spirit will choose to heal the alliance in range or just that player alone. The biggest use for spirits was the thunder pact because all you'd need to do is stick shock and it would spam spells left and right. we've been asking that SE removes blm dot enfeebles from the spell cast so that we'd narrow down the random 'intelligence' that the pacts use.

I guess i should level sch and try smn/sch to see if shock will work >_> those thunder 4s better be sexy (atma or not!). One thing they could do while they are at is change the initial aggro cast time to instant if we're in trouble. When i used to force AM/t4 it was a pain getting more hate than my spirit. if the spirit had easy hate it would cast nonsense like dia, banish, or choke for example.

Light Spirit is actually the only spirit that has been kept even remotely up-to-date, with Banish IV and Holy II since 75.

for all that is holy YES. minus one second per merit. instant cast avatars yes prz.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

Got some information from the development team that they would like to hear feedback on.

Regarding “reduced elemental MP cost,” we decided to implement this given that we’re planning on adjusting elementals in the future, as we mentioned previously.

At first, we were considering changing “reduced elemental MP cost” to a totally different effect, “reduced summoning casting time,” so the possibility exists that we change it to this.

However, please note that we wouldn’t use “reduced elemental MP cost” if we switch to “reduced summoning casting time” and that we will need some time to implement this change.

Please let us know your feedback on this.

---

Why are players being forced to choose between elementals and avatars AGAIN?

Either allow us to 5 more merit slots to put into into reduction in elemental costs, or make the reduction in elemental prepetuation a flat bonus given to everyone, perhaps through a quest or item.

Avatars have been needing a buff in terms of reduced BP timer/increased damage. The reason I mention this is because MANY MANY players have leaned heavily on the Tier1 merits to increase their avatar's power. MAB and ATTK merits is a must for any summoner worth their salt. And now we're being forced to roll back some of these to accomodate an elemental perpetuation scheme with the promose of an 'overhaul' in elementals.

Here's a suggestion, overhaul how you deal with summoners first, because we're quite tired of getting trade off upgrades like avatar's favor (where we gimp our own damage and significantly reduce our flexibility as buffers because the AOE buffs from favour take a long time to max out) or useless addons like the recent BP for diabolos and fenrir while BSTs get new pets and can solo dynamis ad infinitum.

It's great that elementals might get an overhaul, but don't let us choose between two mediocre options. Buff avatars and let us have elementals we can actually command, instead of having to deal with an AI that keeps casting the same DOT spell over and over again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

Got some information from the development team that they would like to hear feedback on.

Regarding “reduced elemental MP cost,” we decided to implement this given that we’re planning on adjusting elementals in the future, as we mentioned previously.

At first, we were considering changing “reduced elemental MP cost” to a totally different effect, “reduced summoning casting time,” so the possibility exists that we change it to this.

However, please note that we wouldn’t use “reduced elemental MP cost” if we switch to “reduced summoning casting time” and that we will need some time to implement this change.

Please let us know your feedback on this.

---

Dear Camate.

Are you saying "reduced spirit spell casting time" or are you saying "reduced summoning time"? Because if it is spirit related it sounds logical, but if you change it completely to just pet summoning time, then you are changing what people merited and are just asking for people to quit in rage. (If you want to be that crazy, then kindly change MAB to MAB/Macc and attack to attack/accuracy and Macc to Pet movement speed and accuracy to -PDT. That way we have more and better choices.)

And if you mean spirit casting time, read below as to what the current issues actually are, and how this change in its own are going to be useless unless you announce other changes.

The giant list of reasons why nobody uses spirits

1. Timer reset. Each time you Assault, the timer is set to max delay. This prevents any and all uses of spirits. It is the same as each time you unsheathe your weapon, you get 0 TP. It is like each time you open your magic menu, your MP is set to 0. You are crippled, and the only thing you can do is work up the TP or MP while in battle.

2. Melee AI. All spirits prefer melee over distance casting. This means they can not be used on any enemy that uses AOE attacks, because AOE stun, AOE silence, AOE paralyze and AOE damage can interrupt their casting. However, if they didn't melee, they wouldn't work as "oh sh-t" emergency save pets on aggro.

1 and 2 together completely block off spirits from even casting spells on anything worthwhile. Either your monster is dead, or your spirit just got interrupted. But would you be fighting something trivial enough, the following problems will instead prevent you from wanting to use them.

3. Capped casting delay reduction. Spirit casting time is capped at about 20 seconds. It can't get lower than that, so it means you cast spells very rarely. This also means that +skill items stopped being useful for spirits already at level 75 cap, and these days it doesn't help to wear more skill for spirits.

4. No spells post level 75. I mean what is this about? Why would anyone want to use spirits if you leave them at level 75 spells?

5. Spell Selection. The debuff spells simply do not belong on the spirits. AOE attacks were removed for Balance, but someone should have removed debuffs for utility. I don't think there has ever been a time I wanted a debuff spell. I can actually sub WHM if I need those spells, and fight something weak. If I fight something strong, I wouldn't be using a spirit. And if it is really strong, I'd be in a party and have it covered already.

6. Weak. Tier 4 nukes from spirits tend to do roughly 600 damage. Pretty poor damage for the best damage a spirit can muster.

So if you pass the problem of 1+2, and a spell is cast, you'll suffer from 3+4+5 and have it take a long time and be a useless spell. When you are super lucky, you'll get to face problem 6, which means you did damage, but rather low damage.

Proposed solutions

1. Obviously, do NOT reset timers on assault. This prevents problem 1+2. You can summon a spirit, wait a few seconds to ready the spell, then assault and have it cast instantly.

2. Faster/Split timers. Either make spirits cast very often, so that getting pointless spells isn't as big of a deal, or make them have multiple timers, one for debuffs, one for nukes, one for healing, one for buffing.


The roles of avatars and spirits

They need two different roles, or people will just ignore the one that doesn't fill the same role the best.

I've always liked the idea that avatars should be your main boss combat pet, while spirits should be more for dealing with many underlings.

Example: Spirits should attack often and for a decent amount on weak monsters, but less damage on strong monsters. Avatars should do high damage on strong monsters, but be a worse alternative for killing many weak monsters.

Or in other words. Spirits = Exp/salvage/limbus/dynamis/etc, Avatars = salvage boss/dynamis boss/HNM. I think that would be an ideal situation for using multiple pets strategically. Of course nothing prevents you from using avatars in Exp or so, it is just the whole thing about monsters perhaps dying faster than one per 45 seconds.


Thank you for reading, and please pass it along to the development team. I'm sure they still don't know the timer resets on ASSAULT. I mean it is half the reason nobody uses spirits, so it would be the first thing to change if they wanted to change anything spirit related.