Wheres the evidence Abyssea revived FFXI?

I never liked endgame pre Abyssea. Abyssea rekindled my enjoyment with the game.

Voidwatch isn't bad either, though not as accessible for smaller groups.

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I remember having to constantly explain to my endgame LS that I was busy with university and a social life to attend every single event that was "required" or else I'd get kicked out.

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lol the more I think about old FFXI the more I'm amazed we stuck with it, HNMLS leaders keeping tabs on me, complaints if you weren't at events, points.., backstabbing to get loting rights over others, bot domination, timetables, horrible drop rates..god old FFXI was brutal.

I also had a huge problem getting into a HNM shell due to my timezone being UK. I couldn't stay up until 5am every day and without attending events I never got to lot on anything. I saw so many BB items fall to the ground simply because I didn't have the points.

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Originally Posted by Runespider

lol the more I think about old FFXI the more I'm amazed we stuck with it, HNMLS leaders keeping tabs on me, complaints if you weren't at events, points.., backstabbing to get loting rights over others, bot domination, timetables, horrible drop rates..god old FFXI was brutal.

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Psst, bro. You're online and Fafnir is open. Why aren't you here again?

What? You wanna squeeze in EXP because you've got days off? Does it look like I care? I said Fafnir is open and your DKP spreadsheet is also open right now. You gonna show? Or am I gonna knock off 30points to make you an example?

Btw, keep an eye on Adamantoise. That opens right after Fafnir and we need ppl there.

It interesting that this argument has begun again. When Abyssea was released "EVERYONE" hated it saying it was too easy and everything dropped too quickly. Now, nearly a year and a half later "EVERYONE" is saying Abyssea is the only fun thing in the game. If all the players that were upset left when Abyssea was released and now everyone who likes Abyssea leaves its likely going to result in more server mergers. That of course, being a major if as I do not think all these players actually leave when they complain, they simply continue paying and SE continues to make money.

As stated in an interview found on another thread the devs are now struggling with the impact Abyssea has had on the player base mentality. (This is from experience on the Asura server I can not speak for all servers or the entire players base, these are only trends.) More and more players are doing things in smaller and smaller groups, in many cases ignoring proc requirements for NMs in favor of more loot or less people interaction. For example, a shout for a farm run for C-C requesting nothing but a BLM/BRD. I asked the shouter why he would do that and the response I got was working with others is too much of a bother, not even worth 100% proc coverage. The bigger issue seems to be with empyrean, players mandate empyrean from all DD in VW shout runs and many VW shells require them for entry. Even with level 99 Magian or other weapons such as the 89 job specific, and even with great gear, new ws etc. I have seen perle players with VS and Ukon take DD spots.

"If the game has it, I should be able to get it." Relic and Mythic were never ment for everyone, the best is a luxury not mandatory by any means. If everyone acquires the ultimate power its no longer ultimate simply dime-a-dozen like empyrean has become. Its exactly this type of thinking which causes players to ignore non empyrean players and assume players without are "worthless", "well everyone else has one you should too." Old endgame events could be done in average gear, the only thing better gear did was allow for smaller groups. All abyssea has done is caused casuals to believe "and in cases forced into" getting the best gear is the minimum to play. The devs built 75 to be a place that you could choose how you got your gear, Sky, Sea, Dynamis, Salvage, Storylines, Nyzul, Einherjar, Campaign, HNM choose the event style you like best and the gear you recieved would help you get others. They are desperately trying to re-enstate that type of balance, empyrean and +2 should not tower over all others even the balance of non relic vs relic/mythic was within reason they were better for the time they took but not enough that they were a must.

The idea of if the game has it I should be able to obtain it is obsurd, and players have forgotten that. In fact, friends of mine players of other MMOs including WoW, let me repeat INCLUDING WOW, have been laughing at the state of FFXI for sometime and not just abyssea. Leveling from 1-99 in 3 days, thats not even abyssea leeching. EXP does not make a game but it is a factor in any RPG and especially any MMO. For everyone to be walking around with nearly the best weapons on every job they have, to be maxed level, for everyone to look exactly the same and for a player to have 10 fully geared jobs in a few months is laughable to other MMO players even WoW which the FFXI community considers the childs/easy game.

Players have had a taste of godhood and now are not willing to give it up, the DEVs know this. Right now the game feels like little more then the 4 part .hack series, a place a team of 3 can do anything, leveling 1-99 takes 120hrs with story quests included, the ultimate weapons take nothing more then a game breaking device used repeatedly on specific enemies.

I personally hope the game takes a team aspect again, If that were the case WoE and VW would not be in such a state, and Vanadiel might actually take castle zvhal once more. If players can complain they have to work with 5 other people to get to 99, then the mentality still needs time to set in. Loot whoring was a major issue at 75 and the DEVs have made an effort to correct that, is it perfect yet no, but its a good step forward. The idea of an ultimate set of gear should be abolished and players may one day again have choices of how they get their gear. (mind you +2 may very well be on that list but should not be, be all end all. The game had a rocky ride to 99, but I am hoping in the coming months the game returns to the style it was before.

TL;DR - Players have lost sight of teamwork for reward, and somehow got the idea in their heads that its Ultimate gear set or a job is unplayable (which is why players want said gear so fast, so they can use a job)

I am finished feel free to flame me now.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Psst, bro. You're online and Fafnir is open. Why aren't you here again?

What? You wanna squeeze in EXP because you've got days off? Does it look like I care? I said Fafnir is open and your DKP spreadsheet is also open right now. You gonna show? Or am I gonna knock off 30points to make you an example?

Btw, keep an eye on Adamantoise. That opens right after Fafnir and we need ppl there.

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Holy Sh~, You've Frighten Me! lmao

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Originally Posted by newmonkey

I don't think anyone cares what you think apart from the fact you're one of the most hated people in ffxi lol.

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Stop getting

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Originally Posted by newmonkey

Terrible shell with terrible leaders im from the uk aswell and my old linkshell on quetz kazoku got everyone geared in a very small period of time.

Maybe it was down to your terrible attitude and been a doucebag as to why you got screwed!

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So mad

You =/= everyone cabrón.

Not mad at all just pointing out some facts theres a reason you're banned from ffxiah and bg forums.

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I also had a huge problem getting into a HNM shell due to my timezone being UK. I couldn't stay up until 5am every day and without attending events I never got to lot on anything. I saw so many BB items fall to the ground simply because I didn't have the points.

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I was the same but in a game where the domnant players were JP or US you had to either not do endgame very often or stay up to fit into their timezones (and put up with the crap that went with it), I did Ein etc at 2am. I still remember trying to stay awake for late night events and very often falling asleep waiting for people to gather...then being told off the next day for it.

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TL;DR - Players have lost sight of teamwork for reward, and somehow got the idea in their heads that its Ultimate gear set or a job is unplayable (which is why players want said gear so fast, so they can use a job)

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Teamwork was cool and all, I liked it in old FF and i like it now in VW. The problem was as stated above, getting groups in your timezone, gather times, point systems, bottlenecks, 16 year old LS leaders talking to you like you were a POS and you took it cause if you left the chance of getting another LS in the time you could attend was nil blah blah In a perfect world 18 player content of the past would be amazing, in reality for most people it was craptastic and ruined your outside life.

Thats why everyone dumped their shells, even the hardcore endgamers that ran them or were the core members.

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

Your one linkshell quit because of Abyssea.

On Quetz, I took a year off or so and reactivated right when Scars of Abyssea came out.. and at some point, lost count of just how many old names I saw all over the place over the following months.

This literally became a daily conversation for me for a while, in exp parties as well as /tells from bumping into people in Jeuno:

Me> "Oh hey _______ I thought you quit a long time ago!"
Them> "Yeah I reactivated because Abyssea"


He said

She said

Blah blah blah

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I would have never come back without Abyssea. Now that the devs are going back to their "grinding for no reward in full alliances is fun!" ethic, I am not putting crysta back in the account.

The OP has anecdotal evidence - my own experience is anecdotal evidence - but I can say, I saw a lot of "I've heard the game is less soul destroying now so I want to come back" threads on the Zam while abyssea was in full swing - while I haven't seen one yet saying "I heard the game is returning to a soul destroying grind so I am coming back" threads on the same forum.

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Originally Posted by Benihana

A

I SPECIFICALLY SAID and I QUOTE

"Do i think 500 pw is reasonable? No, but I also could appreciate the journey in reaching for my goals in game. WHEN WAS ENDGAME EVER REASONABLE?

I ALSO said I would never attempt 500 pws.. So how am i defending them? No im not defending.. I'm just not going to concern myself a VERY SMALL issue. It is a small issue to me because I DONT HAVE THE F*CKING TIME to do it, so I simply wouldn't try or care.

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Hypocrite statement.... so you like "barance" challenging unreasonable trials yet you are not even attempt to do it at all but want this to be implemented so "other people but yourself" can go through the ordeal???

No, no, no. Abyssea is great, it gives options for many casual players or just people in general who refuse to go do the hamster masochist wheel of tanaka's. The game is great as it is - MANY OPTIONS for both casual and hardcore. If "grinding" for artificial challenge with very little result is your thing - there are many activities for you to do - from the classic bcnm, revamped dyna, forgotten WoE, to Logwatch..err Voidwatch. Others who rather take the sane way with much better rewards in short amount of time do Abyssea.

Abyssea is a double edge sword - good players will take great advantage of it and bad players will become even worse - these never go away even before Abyssea. Some people are inherently bad - no matter how many elite gears they have - they still suck because they have very little idea on how to play the job.

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Originally Posted by newmonkey

Not mad at all just pointing out some facts theres a reason you're banned from ffxiah and bg forums.

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What the hell does that have to do with endgame as it used to be back at 75 cap?

I'm with Flion, I'm EU aswell and being EU and trying to do endgame successfully pre-abyssea was hard. Your average EU shell couldn't kill squat, which is why I never got to do Einherjar until late 2009 when I joined an endgame shell that actually tried to do events at a time that their EU members could attend. But those shells were few and far between, at least the successful ones.

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Originally Posted by Runespider

Well there was never before anything like Abyssea, it opened the game to everyone when before it was content for a minority (and yes I was in that minority and I still thought it was stupid), it also removed the huge timesinks, the roster of events all timed for you to fill the week and the LS for everything mindset (remember the irritation of finding a ls for the events you wanted to do in your timezone around your work schedule?). I think that is it's major successes, it's failing was XP made too easy and brews etc. Abyssea I think was still the best thing ever to happen to the game and I'm sad there won't be anymore of it, the next year of more VW and WoE will show how much people like the new endgame I guess (what do you think of WoE and VW btw Arcon? Assuming you do them).



You don't deserve the time to give them, go play the game for a few months and maybe you can make an informed decision. Go try Abyssea with your friends/wifey/ls and then go try the new premier content (WoE/VW) and lets see what you think then, your opinion would hold more merit if you had more experience and not just got back shouting at people that are actually doing the stuff.

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amen, we want content that will keep us involved/interested. yes, we are playing an mmo and there are timesink elements to these events to make sure that we keep renewing our subscription fees each month. [A] was fail because you could gear X-mule on Y-job with empy in 1-2 weeks, with nothing in the way of a timesink, except for leveling/gearing multiple jobs...VW is fail because you can grind X-NM for Y-pops and have an approx 1% chance of shiny new item (that's if you're lucky and are maxing out lights, lol). letting my crysta run out.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

What the hell does that have to do with endgame as it used to be back at 75 cap?

I'm with Flion, I'm EU aswell and being EU and trying to do endgame successfully pre-abyssea was hard. Your average EU shell couldn't kill squat, which is why I never got to do Einherjar until late 2009 when I joined an endgame shell that actually tried to do events at a time that their EU members could attend. But those shells were few and far between, at least the successful ones.

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Well that sucks for you aswell but this wasn't the case for everyone.

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Originally Posted by newmonkey

You used to talk shit to people daily for no reason at all, you even came to bg and started with your childish nonsense.

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you can always flag people for harassment if they are abusing the rulez
:P
that'll take away their posting powers.

it's a forum, but plz, no flame-wars.

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Originally Posted by Zerich

you can always flag people for harassment if they are abusing the rulez
:P
that'll take away their posting powers.

it's a forum, but plz, no flame-wars.

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Thanks, will do.

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Originally Posted by Runespider

You posted something good finally.



We agree on something it seems.

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Except have you actually fought those NMs? Without temps the fights turn into death fests. The top tier NM's can basically one shot everyone near them at any point in time, making getting procs impossible without fanatics of fools. Without procs what little chance of loot you do have is going down the drain fast. Go take a long look at those NMs, some can cause weakness, you know the effect that happens when you die, just by hitting you. Some can aoe weakness, aoe death, or just spam death / cheap moves. Pil's flanking movement hits for 1.5 ~ 2.5K which is more HP then your DD's will have. He can put up a barrier that will negate all damage until you proc a weakness, but you can't proc those weakness's because your hitting for 0 and every few seconds all your DD's are killed. And he's one of the easier ones. Some have hate reset, or worse rapid enmity decay which makes them often walk around just one shoting everyone.

If SE made the fights realistic then temps wouldn't be needed, but as is you use them or you die.

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Originally Posted by Benihana

with 2 separate server merges

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Wrong. There was only one in the abyssea era. The first one you're thinking of happened in March of 2010, an update before Visions of Abyssea was released.

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Originally Posted by Benihana

I've been reading the forums and i'm honestly in shock at some of you. Okay, here's a simple question, can someone, show me cold hard evidence ABYSSEA REVIVED FFXI? Because for me personally, me and my entire endgame ls QUIT BECAUSE of abyssea. Most of my friends quit for good and have yet to return.

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You're missing one major point though. I don't know if it was just over your head or not, but abyssea, was never end game.

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Originally Posted by newmonkey

Well that sucks for you aswell but this wasn't the case for everyone.

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Didn't have to be the case for me either if I was willing to stay up and do stuff like dynamis at 3am my time. Which I wasn't, I'm one of those people who actually need to sleep. Flion has a point, it was kinda tough to be EU and doing endgame back @ 75 cap. But of course, seeing as you probably aren't EU that's irrelevant to you.

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Originally Posted by newmonkey

im from the uk aswell and my old linkshell on quetz kazoku got everyone geared in a very small period of time.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

All I read in the OP is:
I played FFXI in a botting HNMLS and was able to dominate the server because we used bots to claim everything and drive everyone else away. When this aspect of being able to win everything always and be the best was taken away from my LS, we got mad because we had to actually learn how to play and learn how to do the new content. And our LS was actually really bad and couldn't hack it, so they all quit.

I say these things from experience btw, I was in an LS like that before abyssea came out, and 90% of them quit too. It was because they were terrible and could no longer be the best because their bots couldn't dominate everyone else.

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It's funny how I make fun of a terrible botter LS no one liked that fell to crap after abyssea came out because they sucked, and then someone shows up and says the LS was awesome and geared everyone. Kazoku geared the leaders and only the leaders, then fell into ruin after Tony realized he couldn't do the new stuff (abyssea) with the LS and RMT'd his account.

Funny stories about Kazoku I remember: Floater saying he wouldnt farm abyssea with LS cause he would have to lot PLD necklace against scrub PLDs, but he couldn't hold hate for anything on his super well geared PLD anyway so it was weird seeing him make fun of other PLDs because he was horrible at it.

Seeing them tanking Carabosse at 90 with 2 PLDs while DDs ran to WS then ran away.

Hearing about how they basically zombie'd the RR ironclad and were unable to proc it the first time they fought it, and deaggroing it the second time they fought it after proccing, then not proccing again and still not getting the atma.

Watching them wipe to chukwa at 90 with PLD tanks.

And my favorite thing about Kazoku, was listening to them emo rage when I would show up on DD jobs to tank fafnir, then make fun of them for being bad when they talked about wing spam.

on more than one occasion I had to set up a RL alarm to get out to an event. 24 hour kings were ridiculous like that.

Dyna was such a long event too, especially when you start it at 3am.

http://memegenerator.net/cache/insta...6/12591701.jpg

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

It's funny how I make fun of a terrible botter LS no one liked that fell to crap after abyssea came out because they sucked, and then someone shows up and says the LS was awesome and geared everyone. Kazoku geared the leaders and only the leaders, then fell into ruin after Tony realized he couldn't do the new stuff (abyssea) with the LS and RMT'd his account.

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I guess you joined after the merge when Tony got together with Bijuu and the ls went to shit, i agree it was terrible then i left before than and i don't remember you been in it, so what you say above might be true but it was a good ls before the stupid server merge and Tony meeting Bijuu. Fact!

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Originally Posted by Tohihroyu

They come, they join, get 99 (or 95 is last LB is QQ too hard!), get the gear they want, get bored, quit.

For those returning: Don't bother, quit after the first day back.

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thats what i will do if i ever get unsuspended get my charis tiara+1 then maybe get 99 on my jobs and thats it will take me 1 day to do all those things XD

Look i'm not a hater and i ain't even mad.

I like old school xi and i'm enjoying the game again. Why is this a problem? I like the team effort game thing we had going, and i liked the fact getting a salvage set took a lot of effort. I liked the fact my relic took 2.5 years to get. I enjoyed every minute of everyday farming and doing those events. I had fun and I played while managing my marriage, my school work and training.

There were things i cidnd't have time for, but for the things i DID, i had a lot of fun.

Why does everyone think cause an HNM exists that takes forever to pop and has a rare drop, that xxx player is entitled to it?

Or tat xx event should have xx level of difficulty?

Now, I geared my character to have some of the best (aside from hnm abjys which i got from odin) so maybe I don't have room to talk. But honestly.. I loved salvage, loved einherjar, loved some HNM... some.. I liked te old endgame and i enjoy steady progress.

I'm not enetitled to jack sh*t. I didn't have everything and i didn't care. I had and strived for items i wanted.

I really hope SE continues to go in this direction for the simple fact i think the player bases attitude is a poor one. YOU are not ENTITLED to gear... And events shouldnt be made to appeal to any one type of player. A variety of events should be the normal.

I say this as someone who doesn't have all the time in the world and who can't and won't even attempt a lv.99 relic. Do I think a lv.99 relic should be INCREDIBLY TIME CONSUMING and difficult? HELL yes.. its the best. It's beyond my reach and im okay with that.. why aren't you? Its a single class of items...

You want the best and you want it to be easy enough for you. Well I do not support that and i truly hope SE sticks it to all the abyssea-whining-crying people and makes more events that aim towards, team work, dedication, time and effort.

As I said, I'm having fun and as long as the current ffxi doesn't change too much, I will be playing.

500 pws is ridiculous but also keep in mind, and i mean this sincerely.. if i had the time, and desperatelywanted it, and it was gamebreaking.. I would slowly start moving owards it in my group. I honestly wouldn't complain. I've never emailed SE, bitched at SE (aside from when abyssea came out) about anything in game. I'm one of those players who just deals with it or quits and moves on.

I hope you guys do get the trial changed, but if it doesnt change.. so what man? I mean, if you can't or don't want to do it, why do you care?

Maybe my attitude is unrealistic, but I find the attitude of so many of the posters on here really silly and I am really happy the devs don't listen.

Continue to take XI back in the direction it was, while adding more casual friendly events. Please turn ffxi endgame back into the more traditional XI mode and thx!

I can't wait for salvage 2.0 and einherjar 2.0!!!! /excited!

The vocal community is the smallest. Ostracise all the casual players and you'll have a very dead game on your hands.

There can be a good mix, end game doesn't have to be black or white, there can and should be events to suit all players and groups. Big, small, casual or hardcore.

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Originally Posted by Benihana

I like old school xi and i'm enjoying the game again. Why is this a problem?

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It's not a problem though.

Why is it a problem for you that a LOT of people are unhappy with SE taking a step (or more) back towards how things used to be?

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Originally Posted by Benihana

Now, I geared my character to have some of the best (aside from hnm abjs which i got from odin) so maybe I don't have room to talk. But honestly.. I loved salvage, loved einherjar, loved some HNM... some.. I liked te old endgame and i enjoy steady progress.

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So, not only did you not participate in the 'main' endgame event at 75, which IS camping HNMs like fafhogg, behemoth, tiamat, ixion, etc, you think you're entitled to talk about how it was better compared to abyssea, which you admittedly also didn't do. What exactly are you basing your opinions on? What you heard from a friend of a friend?

But hey, since you like steady progress, and events requiring help from others and working together well, you'll love gearing out in abyssea with your friends, it's all of those things. But you'll hate voidwatch with a passion, since it doesn't have any sort of steady progress involved, you just spam one NM and pray.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

It's not a problem though.

Why is it a problem for you that a LOT of people are unhappy with SE taking a step (or more) back towards how things used to be?

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Oh tomoassin... I'm so sorry your ukon got nerfed.

You will deal with it though. Aint nothin changin it gurl.

I aint even made sweety. All I was asking was for evidence abyssea revived XI.. doesn't seem like anyone can give me any though so.. I guess that's that.

I don't have a problem with people voicing their concerns, but even someone as vapid as you can surely look over the forums and tell people are personally attacking se staff and posting pics with photoshop.

But carry on. U will anyway. I guess some people never learn that type of behavior doesn't get responses. Oh well.

Someone explain to me how a point system doesn't capture casual progress and the hardcore grind element that the hardcore community wants? Everyone 'works' to get their drops and how much you work is determined by how far up the point totem you want to climb.

Hardcore play doesn't have to be HNMs that pop within 7hr windows.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

So, not only did you not participate in the 'main' endgame event at 75, which IS camping HNMs like fafhogg, behemoth, tiamat, ixion, etc, you think you're entitled to talk about how it was better compared to abyssea, which you admittedly also didn't do. What exactly are you basing your opinions on? What you heard from a friend of a friend?

But hey, since you like steady progress, and events requiring help from others and working together well, you'll love gearing out in abyssea with your friends, it's all of those things. But you'll hate voidwatch with a passion, since it doesn't have any sort of steady progress involved, you just spam one NM and pray.

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How was hnm the main endgame at 75?> I totally disagree but I don't care tbh! It wasn't my main endgame... Salvage and einherjar sup.

I hope you find more pleasurable fun xi in the future!

Keep your fingers crossed for a good update^______________^

Salvage, Einherjar - both sidegrades and sidesteps to the fact that HNMs dominated endgame.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Salvage, Einherjar - both sidegrades and sidesteps to the fact that HNMs dominated endgame.

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Whatevs, HNM are Obsolete and theres no new ones atm. I ain't thinkin about stuff that might happen. If people want to complain about a trial, that's fine but it's really just about people who are afraid that the game is turning back into what it was.

That trial is not going to stay at 500 pw, come on. It might be 100 or even 50 or something else. This isn't about the trial, which people should know isn't even in the game yet. Not to mention we don't know if the drops come from other znms as well. People need to chill, and provide consistent, rational feedback.

I don't think anyone has to worry about endgame being a complete knockoff of what it was. Thy don't have the manpower to do that anyway. Cause voidwatch loot system isn't perfect, and the test server has a ridiculous trial that hasn't been implemented in the real game yet, people are going nuts.

I'd much prefer new SW/DI style HNM's vs another magian trial on crack like what has been proposed for relics/mythics.

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Originally Posted by Benihana

Oh tomoassin... I'm so sorry your ukon got nerfed.

You will deal with it though. Aint nothin changin it gurl.

I aint even made sweety. All I was asking was for evidence abyssea revived XI.. doesn't seem like anyone can give me any though so.. I guess that's that.

I don't have a problem with people voicing their concerns, but even someone as vapid as you can surely look over the forums and tell people are personally attacking se staff and posting pics with photoshop.

But carry on. U will anyway. I guess some people never learn that type of behavior doesn't get responses. Oh well.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

No one's pointed out the evidentiary fallacy yet?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

OP is just a giant ball of retard and rage.

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This has been covered.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafein

I'd much prefer new SW/DI style HNM's vs another magian trial on crack like what has been proposed for relics/mythics.

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You want a 6hour window NM with not-100% drops that also has a chance to not spawn at all or glitch out?

Have you put in a resume to the opening at Guantanamo Bay?

Ohshit, CC about to get DI, quick scare it to the next zone!

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Ohshit, CC about to get DI, quick scare it to the next zone!

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ITS IN WSARU.
Omw.
*Campaign music starts*
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.
GET BACK TO TOWN.
*time passes*
IM ABOUT TO CLAIM GUYS
WHAT THE FUCK THIS GUY JUST WALKED INTO IT TO CLAIM A GOB
FUCK
FUCK

HILARIOUS drama was had at the hands of that notorious monster.

So much entertainment. Like dark ixion is significant or deep. So much lol.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Salvage, Einherjar - both sidegrades and sidesteps to the fact that HNMs dominated endgame.

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Salvage gear was a sidegrade to HNMs...? Are you serious? Salvage destroyed HNM gear. In fact, it pretty much destroyed every other piece of gear in the game at the time.

Abyssea empyrean armor pretty much destroyed all previous gear choices.

Now we've got VW armor, which actually falls quite short relative to the eras of abyssea and salvage. Some of it is amazing, but VW gear by no means replaces all previous gear.

Nyzul is upcoming, and based on the +5 (?) versions, it might usher in a new era of gear destruction.