Einherjar / Limbus / Nyzul Isle / Salvage - No More Proc Systems!!

I Google Translated ver. of this into the japanese forums; so hopefully SE understands how serious the issue is. Thanks for the post. Rate up!

That's not true, they ask for feedback in both sections on the same topics.

They respond directly to JP threads more because they're Japanese and it's easier for them to do so. Any english posts from English reps need to go through the Japanese folk in japan before they can post it, or there's a risk what they post won't be accurate and people will complain about that.

There is going to be at least a minor disconnect between he communities no matter how hard they try.

Signed... No more procs.

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Originally Posted by xiozen

I Google Translated ver. of this into the japanese forums; so hopefully SE understands how serious the issue is. Thanks for the post. Rate up!

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Hmm, well, google translate is pretty terrible. I can tell when people use google translate and copy/paste in the game because their sentences always have 'watashi wa' or 'anata wa'.

I would translate for us, but my Japanese skills are pathetic. ; ;

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Originally Posted by Meyi

Hmm, well, google translate is pretty terrible. I can tell when people use google translate and copy/paste in the game because their sentences always have 'watashi wa' or 'anata wa'.

I would translate for us, but my Japanese skills are pathetic. ; ;

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Whom here has the skills to do so?

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Originally Posted by xiozen

I Google Translated ver. of this into the japanese forums; so hopefully SE understands how serious the issue is. Thanks for the post. Rate up!

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You don't have any idea how bad you will sound when you post machine-translated japanese on the japanese forums. It's extremely obvious.

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Originally Posted by Glacont

@ Afania I Reviewed your first post:

It seem to give the imppression of new players given the chance to grab something with ease, where a vetran, like yourself, has work hard to achieve. And that if this is put into motion it will only be a slap in the face to those whose been here pre-Level 75 cap raised.

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I really have no problem about old content being easier, since it's inevitable and I got lots of benefit from it myself too, able to obtain old gears solo/duo when it used to require a LS to do. But just feel sad to see newer players would rather do events like Einherjar/nyzul for Mythic before having one job 95, and no spells/AF3+1 when they could have spend their time in Abyssea to get basic AF3+1 first. And there's nothing to stop them, since you don't really need any work to clear those old events anymore.

This applies to relic too, a perle BST can solo a relic in a couple of months, and actually more efficent than say, a pimp pt of 4 empy/+2 DDs+1 healer. Are there even any point to work your job in this game anymore? If you can clear everything, obtain legendary tier weapon without doing some work first. Not that I agree with old 75 era only LS leaders gets relic, but getting top tier weapon without making progress on your job first or play with other of ppl just doesn't seem right, either.

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Originally Posted by Glacont

Am I one of those impatient players? For obtaninig My own Mythic.. in this case I can say yes, my reason for being impatient are not important, but you have to admit the number of requirements 'as a whole' are a bit much. I have made the "suggestions" as means to revive Einherjar, Salvage, and open the doors for Mythic Weapons to be in reach; Not handed to anyone, but simplely put into reach if someone wants to take that path. From My own personal stand point, there is nothing wrong with this.

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Yes I agree that some of the Mythic requirements are a bit too much. I agree that alexandrite requirement is too much when average alex drop in a run with 4 pouch(boss hardly drop pouch) is only 60. If boss pouch drop is 100% it can be a lot better. And 80% of the time whoever come and do salvage usually got nothing they want because the drop rate of gears are so low as well. ZNM trophy requirement is just fine after last update since it's now 100%. Token requirement is certainly fine when you can farm token a lot faster than it used to be by climbing faster. I also made a couple of Nyzul statics and helped a couple Nyzul climb pts for it, IMO Nyzul requirement is one of the most enjoyable stage because I get to play with many different ppl all over the place, help many new players to climb, and it's generally not as stressful as other events. Einherjar requirement is debatable, because it requires 1 year of doing Einherjar to finish. However considering you only spend 1~2hr a week on this event, and 50~100 hr of play time total, it's really not as bad. Just go do something else during the cool down time, no need to spam it over and over daily and finish it in 2 weeks.

And about assult, once I saw someone asking SE to lower the assault entrance requirement(when it's already very low). Again, I wonder if ppl in this game still play with other ppl other then your close friend? Or they just solo/duo everything? Try to find other ppl wanting to clear assault and make a static? The process of making a static with ppl you don't know and clear all assaults to reach the goal of captain is way more fun than solo/duo everything with a mule/close friend IMO.

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Originally Posted by Aeonk

The problem with completely scrapping the proc system is it lets the game go back to ToAU job favoritism again. At least with the proc system, 5 jobs get some love instead of like... 2.

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Proc system is way worse than ToAU era in terms of job favoritism. And you can make up the disadvantage of certain job by improving your performance or try different strategy in TOAU era. DDx3+COR+BRD+RDM is standard bird merit pt setup. That means if you're a PLD you can't do merit pt? A PLD focused on good DD build with 2 other DDs wouldn't get much less EXP/hr compare with 3 DDs with average/below average gears. BLM can join BLM pt for merit point.

BLM and PLD wasn't loved in Nyzul, but I've cleared Nyzul run at 75 cap with PLD and BLM in pt before. It works, may be harder, but still doable. BRD is loved in Einherjar, but if you don't have a BRD leveled, and play other job instead, your einherjar gear progress won't be slower than another BRD in the LS since lotting right is based on attendance/points.

On the other hand in Abyssea pt with right job is at least 3x efficent than pt with wrong jobs. Even though pt with wrong jobs can still kill the NM just fine. I can solo(or duo with any random job like PUP) KI NM for empy on BLU, but a NIN+WAR combo with 100% proc is always 4 times faster than me(even if the WAR is naked except weapons). Even though my pt killing speed isn't slower than NIN+naked WAR, but the amount of proc available just makes a huge difference.

Proc system just makes the game lacking variety, you can't play the job you like, you can't see your pt performance improve by improving your job because another half naked pt with right job still farms KI 4x faster. And the only way to improve efficency is to go home and job change, or lv right jobs, and there are no way out of this. Job favoritism in TOAU era is nowhere near as bad as proc.

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Originally Posted by xiozen

I Google Translated ver. of this into the japanese forums; so hopefully SE understands how serious the issue is.

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The development team is now aware that fish are on fire in the trouser leg trouser trouser leg of the contingent of beginnings in that place. Fish bringing fire to the hill. Fish bringing water to the hill. People are unhappy with fish.

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Originally Posted by Afania

Proc system is way worse than ToAU era in terms of job favoritism. And you can make up the disadvantage of certain job by improving your performance or try different strategy in TOAU era. DDx3+COR+BRD+RDM is standard bird merit pt setup. That means if you're a PLD you can't do merit pt? A PLD focused on good DD build with 2 other DDs wouldn't get much less EXP/hr compare with 3 DDs with average/below average gears. BLM can join BLM pt for merit point.

BLM and PLD wasn't loved in Nyzul, but I've cleared Nyzul run at 75 cap with PLD and BLM in pt before. It works, may be harder, but still doable. BRD is loved in Einherjar, but if you don't have a BRD leveled, and play other job instead, your einherjar gear progress won't be slower than another BRD in the LS since lotting right is based on attendance/points.

On the other hand in Abyssea pt with right job is at least 3x efficent than pt with wrong jobs. Even though pt with wrong jobs can still kill the NM just fine. I can solo(or duo with any random job like PUP) KI NM for empy on BLU, but a NIN+WAR combo with 100% proc is always 4 times faster than me(even if the WAR is naked except weapons). Even though my pt killing speed isn't slower than NIN+naked WAR, but the amount of proc available just makes a huge difference.

Proc system just makes the game lacking variety, you can't play the job you like, you can't see your pt performance improve by improving your job because another half naked pt with right job still farms KI 4x faster. And the only way to improve efficency is to go home and job change, or lv right jobs, and there are no way out of this. Job favoritism in TOAU era is nowhere near as bad as proc.

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I call bullshit on that. The same arguement you made against procs could be used to counter your own ToAU job favoritism preference.

"You still have a reasonable chance of getting the KI after each kill, even if you don't proc. Or getting seals to drop without grellow. Sure it's not as efficient as bringing X,Y, and Z but that's ok."

Sound familiar?

You can't adopt a "well these jobs do good enough" attitude for ToAU content like nyzul isle then conveniently forget to apply that same mentallity for abyssea.

In ToAU, it was SAM + RDM + COR onry. With abyssea's system, jobs like NIN, BLM, WHM, BLU, MNK, and WAR got a little more attention and actually saw some use. Last I checked, 6 is > 3.

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Originally Posted by Aeonk

In ToAU, it was SAM + RDM + COR onry.

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I don't think we're referring to the same thing when we say ToAU. Treasures of Aht Urhgan? I frequently used WHM, BLM, SCH, BRD, PLD, WAR, DRG, MNK (any DD really), even NIN, and if people wanted to come on less optimal jobs I always let them, because it was always useful. And that goes for almost every event (Salvage was a bit restricting, but Nyzul, Einherjar, Assaults and even HNMs allowed most jobs). In Abyssea these jobs aren't useful. Don't get me wrong, you can still bring them, but there are just combinations that are a hell of a lot better, and it's solely because of weakness staggering. Because any DD can kill any mob in Abyssea in no time. But here's the thing, NQ mobs die in one WS, most HQ NMs still die in < 3min, farming low tier NMs still < 1min. The only time sink is staggering and farming, and since every job can farm just as well, staggering is the bottleneck. So why come DRG when you can come WAR and have almost all red procs? And having more people (i.e. DRG+WAR) doesn't help either, because fighting itself is the lowest time investment in Abyssea. Who cares if you kill the NM in 40s or in 1min? It's not gonna save you any noticeable amount of time, but instead may require another healer/supporter. Hence the uselessness of almost every job in Abyssea. In ToAU, more people equalled higher killspeed (where it actually mattered, when prolonged fights meant you would die easier), or easier fights. That's not the case in Abyssea, because more (and more diverse) jobs don't add to the overall group value.

Also, you don't need BLU, I never have a BLU in Abyssea, and rarely need MNK, and when I do I usually don't need NIN. Abyssea simply encourages small parties with certain jobs, you can trio almost everything in Abyssea very efficiently (including some Empyrean weapons) with WHM, BLM, WAR and possibly a THF for good measure.

What if they actually made just 1 change to salvage, einherjar and nyzul where you could proc mobs like in dyna, and if you did, you are guaranteed 1-2 alexandrite?
If you don't like to proc; don't. You can carry on the same way that you always did.
If you can clear the zone in 30 mins and would prefer to get extra alex; go for the procs!

Adding procs to allow you to get what you always could before is bad. Adding procs to allow you to get over and above what was available before, I'm all for it. Even if you don't care for the procs, you can make your way through the zone as you always did, and occasionally, you might get the procs by accident and get extra alex. Bonus.

I think the biggest thing is that these events are FINE THE WAY THEY ARE. The only thing that you really need to change is that they are a bit easy due to the level gap and the rewards are lacking in luster also due to the level gap. The easiest way to bring life back into them is adding more sections to them, not changing their core function. The very differences they have from the proc based newer content is why players will use other jobs here. As was mentioned a few times earlier, just add newer chambers, higher floors, newer mobs/bosses. Have the additions be a greater challenge with more of a reward. But some of these events I would still like to keep them the same.

Getting to floor 100 again but with some stupid tricks would just be stupid. Nyzual is still really fun, and getting that top floor for mythic weapon skill will not go away. Killing Odin for the title and Atma will still be a worthy cause. But I would be glad to have a new reason to jump back into those fun events. Also making mythics realistic would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Aeonk

This is true, I was actually thinking that a refinement to the proc'ing system would be in order. As it is right now, you're correct. None of the systems in place are perfect.

This may be a bit scatterbrained, but this is something I was thinking about in terms of improving the proc system as a whole.

Since SE is going to be revamping Nyzul Isle in the near future, I'd imagine Mythic WS's are once again going to be pretty commonplace (not that they were rare to begin with.)

They could make a sort of hybrid system between the Blue proc'ing in abyssea and VW's system.

General Rundown:
You have 2 different ways to proc with weapons, NQ weakness and HQ weakness. The NQ weakness would be a generic WS that most jobs have access too. HQ weakness would be Mythic WS's. Every job has one.

The difference between an NQ and HQ trigger would be the increase in drop rate on desirable loot. This loot still has a reasonable shot of dropping with just TH (which makes the entire system somewhat optional, but still gives incentives for trying to incorporate it into your playstyle/alliance make-up.) But the NQ trigger would increase drop rate significantly, and the HQ trigger would make it near guarenteed.

Keep the whole "time aspect" of blue procing from abyssea intact.
Weapon types that have no Mythic WS at all would be removed from the list entirely.

Example: Let's say... you have Polearm. NQ weakness would be something like Raiden thrust: DRG, SAM, PLD, WAR, etc. have access to. But to trigger the HQ weakness, you have to use the Mythic WS for that weapon type: Drakesbane, a DRG exclusive. This way, even if a DRG is not dealing as much damage as a SAM or WAR (purely hypothetical here...), he compensates by giving out better loot during Piercing time.

Other example: A weapon like Sword, which PLD/BLU/RDM have Mythic WS's for. All 3 would be able to proc HQ weakness. Guarenteed. This way, during Slashing time, if it happens to be sword, the RDM/PLD/BLU have it covered, all the while covering NQ weaknesses for other damage types when it's not Sword or Slashing time.

The way I see it, it means that every job during their specific time has a reason for being present at an event, but if people choose to just bring <insert top DD here> to their runs, those players aren't completely screwed. They can still do NQ procs with other weapon types during times where their HQ proc isn't a possible option.

It's entirely possible that I may be overlooking something that makes this entire idea stupid, this was more of a "top of my head" thing. Just a thought. Either way, it's late. And I'm gettin some sleep.

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I like the ideas you are sharing here, but really they should not be added to Nyzul Isle imo.

Nyzul Isle is almost perfect as it is now. All it needs are

* additional uncapped floors that should be accessible only after you have a floor 100 runic key

* the pool of NMs that can appear should be expanded to include NMs added after ToAU

* list of purchasable gear/items that can be bought with tokens should be added

and most important

* unlink Nyzul Isle and Salvage. Make one or the other dependent on tags(and allow tags to refresh in a manner closer to Abyssean traverser stones) and the other based on a re-purchasable KI that sells from a NPC for like 1k like WoE.


That last one because really, after Abyssea, SE shouldn't try and dictate how often an event can be done. As you can literally stay in Abyssea indefinitely until you want to leave. People that want to do Nyzul Isle AND Salvage shouldn't have to pick one or the other anymore.


Again there really doesn't need to be a proc system in Nyzul Isle, my above suggestions would be easy to do and SE could call the event fixed and move on.

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Originally Posted by Spiritreaver

I like the ideas you are sharing here, but really they should not be added to Nyzul Isle imo.

Nyzul Isle is almost perfect as it is now. All it needs are

* additional uncapped floors that should be accessible only after you have a floor 100 runic key

* the pool of NMs that can appear should be expanded to include NMs added after ToAU

* list of purchasable gear/items that can be bought with tokens should be added

and most important

* unlink Nyzul Isle and Salvage. Make one or the other dependent on tags(and allow tags to refresh in a manner closer to Abyssean traverser stones) and the other based on a re-purchasable KI that sells from a NPC for like 1k like WoE.


That last one because really, after Abyssea, SE shouldn't try and dictate how often an event can be done. As you can literally stay in Abyssea indefinitely until you want to leave. People that want to do Nyzul Isle AND Salvage shouldn't have to pick one or the other anymore.


Again there really doesn't need to be a proc system in Nyzul Isle, my above suggestions would be easy to do and SE could call the event fixed and move on.

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I can almost guarantee the entrance requirements will be changed. Every other event they've redone has had entrance requirements eased, positive these would too, especially if the idea is to make mythic easier to obtain.

Expanding NMs? only if you expand floors. Time limit, remember?

I have no issue with requiring Nyzul 100 beat before you enter salvage the 1st time, but otherwise I'm completely on board with you about unlinking them. Unlink the need to burn assault points too, hard enough to find a group doing assaults as it is.

Absolutely on board with adding "goodies" that can be purchased. The stuff that can be purchased now with assault points needs a revamp as well; the gear was decent (not uber, but decent) before the cap increase from 75 but it's irrelevant now, so we need some 90+ stuff.

1 idea, if they really want to increase interest in doing this stuff then making Salvage/Nyzul an alternative path to Voidwatch as a means of Empy upgrading 95>99 would be an option, and a welcome one to those of us who don't care for Voidwatch. Sorry haters, I like options. It's still the obvious place for mythic 95>99 of course.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

I can almost guarantee the entrance requirements will be changed. Every other event they've redone has had entrance requirements eased, positive these would too, especially if the idea is to make mythic easier to obtain.

Expanding NMs? only if you expand floors. Time limit, remember?

I have no issue with requiring Nyzul 100 beat before you enter salvage the 1st time, but otherwise I'm completely on board with you about unlinking them. Unlink the need to burn assault points too, hard enough to find a group doing assaults as it is.

Absolutely on board with adding "goodies" that can be purchased. The stuff that can be purchased now with assault points needs a revamp as well; the gear was decent (not uber, but decent) before the cap increase from 75 but it's irrelevant now, so we need some 90+ stuff.

1 idea, if they really want to increase interest in doing this stuff then making Salvage/Nyzul an alternative path to Voidwatch as a means of Empy upgrading 95>99 would be an option, and a welcome one to those of us who don't care for Voidwatch. Sorry haters, I like options. It's still the obvious place for mythic 95>99 of course.

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100% My Vote.

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Originally Posted by Tawnee

Yes because we all remember there was absolutely no job favoritism back then >.>

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only if you were too stupid to know how to build a party. A general party could use any combination of DDs, with or without a support role, tank was kind of restricted, but not always necessary, and there were multiple options with healers-which expanded drastically with the use of proper subs, and there were multiple pulling options as well. The new jobs expand the choices to fill those roles (dancer is a viable tank for instance), and increased cure power allows for more flexibility in party building. The gear choices have beefed most jobs to the point that outside Aby (where the new content is being added) their power is such that they can function easily in a standard party (again, beast is the exception, as they can only DD or pull), albeit in slightly different roles, and proper sub choice on the part of players can make up for the preceived deficiencies in other jobs. Example: red mage is fine as a healer outside dynamis if the pt has a dnc or at least 1 DD /dnc, or a Blue mage in it. Back-up ____ has always been a viable element in any build, it simply requires a little thought and planning when you build your party initially. In fact, standard partys were often a revolving door in many of the roles. Believe it or not the game can be successfully played in more ways than "haste the DDs and cure-bomb".

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

I can almost guarantee the entrance requirements will be changed. Every other event they've redone has had entrance requirements eased, positive these would too, especially if the idea is to make mythic easier to obtain.

Expanding NMs? only if you expand floors. Time limit, remember?

I have no issue with requiring Nyzul 100 beat before you enter salvage the 1st time, but otherwise I'm completely on board with you about unlinking them. Unlink the need to burn assault points too, hard enough to find a group doing assaults as it is.

Absolutely on board with adding "goodies" that can be purchased. The stuff that can be purchased now with assault points needs a revamp as well; the gear was decent (not uber, but decent) before the cap increase from 75 but it's irrelevant now, so we need some 90+ stuff.

1 idea, if they really want to increase interest in doing this stuff then making Salvage/Nyzul an alternative path to Voidwatch as a means of Empy upgrading 95>99 would be an option, and a welcome one to those of us who don't care for Voidwatch. Sorry haters, I like options. It's still the obvious place for mythic 95>99 of course.

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Should have worded that better. I mean expand the pool from which the NMs are drawn from, not now many are loaded per floor.

EX-Chaneque drops Birdbanes, pretty nifty HTH weapon if you know you are gonna be fighting some weak to piercing mobs. As of right now, Chaneque will never pop in a Nyzul Isle run because it was added after ToAU.

All i'm suggesting with that point is to open up the system there so more different NMs have a chance to pop up during a run.

Guys try to stay on topic. Lets not pick each other apart for past things like level 75 party setups and how we used to play. We don't play like that anymore and we need to move forward with what we would like to see in these new events.

Procs are horrible, and have been horrible since 80 cap.

It's just a sorry excuse of "balance" to include jobs that wouldn't have been included before (in the end in VW, the only jobs that get included that wouldn't be included otherwise are like BLU, SCH, RDM, DRK, and like DRG. PUP is still left out, even DRG, RDM, and SCH can be left out and still cap lights very easily.) It obviously doesn't work in Aby in terms of 'inclusion,' WAR NIN WHM BLM/BRD THF BLU or -------------->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>get out

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

What if they actually made just 1 change to salvage, einherjar and nyzul where you could proc mobs like in dyna, and if you did, you are guaranteed 1-2 alexandrite?
If you don't like to proc; don't. You can carry on the same way that you always did.
If you can clear the zone in 30 mins and would prefer to get extra alex; go for the procs!

Adding procs to allow you to get what you always could before is bad. Adding procs to allow you to get over and above what was available before, I'm all for it. Even if you don't care for the procs, you can make your way through the zone as you always did, and occasionally, you might get the procs by accident and get extra alex. Bonus.

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A "bonus" proc system like this would be peachy, but I just can't imagine sane "normal" drop rates and a proc system co-existing at this point. From the Development Bros' standpoint, I doubt such a rational option is an option.

Salvage and Nyzul aren't really linked anymore... You only need 500 assault points per permit which, even at the lowest assault rank, is about 1 tag per 2 runs. Basically you only have to do 1 assault every 2 days, which really isn't that bad at all. I have no problems with the entry requirements personally.

-Drop rate from gears needs to be drastically increased.
-Linen pouch 100% or near 100% from the boss.
-Coin pouches from NMs in Nyzul.
-More areas of Nyzul/Salvage/Einherjar
-Something purchasable with ichor that's actually worthwhile. This really bothers me now that I think about it... There's literally no use for ichor at the moment other than for a mythic. Upgrades for Odin specific gear would be cool.
-Probably leaving some stuff out.

God I hope they don't add anymore proc system events. I am so sick of drawing out fights to proc for drops (or in VWNM case a placebo effect) instead of getting onto the next fight. While in some of the events it makes sense to proc....in others you proc, cross your fingers, pray to whatever treasure gods, rub you local bald LS leaders head for luck, punt a taru, sacrifice a taru, and maybe toss a thf at it just to get synth materials.....well....wow...that was so worth it...

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

God I hope they don't add anymore proc system events. I am so sick of drawing out fights to proc for drops (or in VWNM case a placebo effect) instead of getting onto the next fight. While in some of the events it makes sense to proc....in others you proc, cross your fingers, pray to whatever treasure gods, rub you local bald LS leaders head for luck, punt a taru, sacrifice a taru, and maybe toss a thf at it just to get synth materials.....well....wow...that was so worth it...

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lol whose head, Kitkat?

((*agreed*)) Please, no more procs!

I'll go one step further.

No more procing to any event, new or old.

I like procs in Abyssea and Dynamis, but do NOT want more in these other places pleeeeeeeease. We have enough of them :)

I like procs, but they get annoying when they're used EVERYWHERE. Having a part of the content, even a good part, using slight variations of the Procs systems is alright, but we already achieved that with Abyssea + Dynamis + Voidwatch.

Please don't use it again for Salvage, Nyzul -100, Einherjar and Limbus!

If they add procs to salvage, all hope is lost.

The thing I hate about procs is having to stand back and not be able to make use of the gear I've earned. I know some people don't want zergfests anymore, but I really want to be able to go all out and smash things into oblivion sometimes without worry over procs or lights.

Variety is the spice of life, right? If people like procs then don't do away with them, but it'd be nice to have new relevant events where we can just cut loose. Not without risk of dying, of course. We have to maintain some challenge. I just wonder what good all these powerful weapons, armors, spells, and abilities are if we have to constantly nerf ourselves to get anything done. Let us show them off and be rewarded for doing so.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

The thing I hate about procs is having to stand back and not be able to make use of the gear I've earned. I know some people don't want zergfests anymore, but I really want to be able to go all out and smash things into oblivion sometimes without worry over procs or lights.

Variety is the spice of life, right? If people like procs then don't do away with them, but it'd be nice to have new relevant events where we can just cut loose. Not without risk of dying, of course. We have to maintain some challenge. I just wonder what good all these powerful weapons, armors, spells, and abilities are if we have to constantly nerf ourselves to get anything done. Let us show them off and be rewarded for doing so.

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We're on the same page.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

The thing I hate about procs is having to stand back and not be able to make use of the gear I've earned. I know some people don't want zergfests anymore, but I really want to be able to go all out and smash things into oblivion sometimes without worry over procs or lights.

Variety is the spice of life, right? If people like procs then don't do away with them, but it'd be nice to have new relevant events where we can just cut loose. Not without risk of dying, of course. We have to maintain some challenge. I just wonder what good all these powerful weapons, armors, spells, and abilities are if we have to constantly nerf ourselves to get anything done. Let us show them off and be rewarded for doing so.

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Preach it!

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Procs are horrible, and have been horrible since 80 cap.

It's just a sorry excuse of "balance" to include jobs that wouldn't have been included before (in the end in VW, the only jobs that get included that wouldn't be included otherwise are like BLU, SCH, RDM, DRK, and like DRG. PUP is still left out, even DRG, RDM, and SCH can be left out and still cap lights very easily.) It obviously doesn't work in Aby in terms of 'inclusion,' WAR NIN WHM BLM/BRD THF BLU or -------------->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>get out

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Even if you wanted to include as many jobs as possible, you can't include them all, because there are 20 jobs and only 18 spots in an alliance. So guess which jobs would be left out even in the best case scenario? Probably PUP and either DRG or BST.

Procs killed Dragoon, it's not anywhere near the same lol level as PUP or BST in group settings. Even including procs, the jobs you'd want to leave out are the ones that don't have unique weapon procs - BST and PUP. Pet procs are stupid for anything that isn't SMN.

Honestly not sure where the Drg hate is coming from. It's a solid DD, and it can easily keep up with the big 3 as long as their wyvern's alive. Throw in a Mythic and it's basically unstoppable.

Honestly not sure where the Pup hate is coming from. It's a solid DD and it can easily keep up with the big 3 as long as their puppet's alive. Throw in an Empy and it's basically unstoppable.

Oh you're funny. I'd like to see that PUP keeping up with the big 3 without a Mythic. The only reason the wyvern matters for Dragoon is for the later jumps, not because pet damage is worth a shit (hint: It's not, even on PUP).

Heh 60 "Thumbs Up" on the OP and a bunch of posts that followed. Pretty awesome. Now just need some feedback >.>

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not because pet damage is worth a shit (hint: It's not, even on PUP).

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Then you're doing it wrong. Especially so following the coming update, which makes sharpshot considerably stronger due to the drastically improved drum magazine, which means more ranged attacks, faster TP, and more WS. PUP can keep up with DRG just fine. And I know, because have some pretty darn good DRG friends (whom don't get to use it as often as they'd like because they have some of the 17 other jobs that are more wanted). PUP BST and DRG aren't even likely to be the number one job due to SE's overly cautious nature with pet jobs, but I can assure you from personal and eyewitness experience that you're not giving any of these jobs enough credit. Oh, and no PUP in their right mind should be taking the mythic over Verethregana.

(Previous post was semi-poking fun, but you chose to press it further)

//Cue post about me being irrationally defensive, though GG is basically trolling

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Originally Posted by Aeonk

I call bullshit on that. The same arguement you made against procs could be used to counter your own ToAU job favoritism preference.

"You still have a reasonable chance of getting the KI after each kill, even if you don't proc. Or getting seals to drop without grellow. Sure it's not as efficient as bringing X,Y, and Z but that's ok."

Sound familiar?

You can't adopt a "well these jobs do good enough" attitude for ToAU content like nyzul isle then conveniently forget to apply that same mentallity for abyssea.

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No it's not, because the efficency difference is way different than ToAU era.

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Originally Posted by Aeonk

In ToAU, it was SAM + RDM + COR onry. With abyssea's system, jobs like NIN, BLM, WHM, BLU, MNK, and WAR got a little more attention and actually saw some use. Last I checked, 6 is > 3.

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Now see who's BSing

SAM+RDM+COR in ToAU? Wut? Are we playing the same game? You don't use BRD in merit pt? You don't bring MNK in salvage at 75? If your LS has a relic DRK or Mythic DRG you'd rather use Shinsoku SAM over Apoc DRK? Yes, SAM is bandwagon in ToAU era, but if you have a very pimp DD there are no reason not to use it and would rather use a naked SAM. However I'd rather use a naked WAR over Mythic DRG in Abyssea for KI farm in any way since no body cares about the pt killing speed and performance. Using differernt setup for Nyzul isn't half ass attitude, there are no reason to refuse a pimp DD to join the pt and go look for a bandwagon SAM. I see plenty of non-SAM DDs outparse bandwagon SAMs in ToAU and outperform them, how often do you see none NIN WAR jobs farming KI in Abyssea?

Lumping DRG in with PUP and BST is so so so bad. I don't particularly care about how you and your friends perform. Anecdotal evidence really is the best evidence. Dragoon, however, currently holds the "Most powerful job in the game if given X, Y, Z gear" title. The biggie is Ryunohige, but it's no slouch without it. Kenkonken destroys Verethragna, too - the hell are you smoking?

Dragoon is a top-end DD who flops miserably in proc-land because they don't have crap for weapon access outside of lances.

PUP is a B-tier DD and pets will never, ever be competitive themselves until they're able to receive Haste/Song/Samba effects and all Corsair rolls. I wanted to inb4 "Pups are people too", but I guess you beat me too it. As I said earlier, the Wyvern being alive isn't important because of its own damage, it's important because it buffs Spirit/Soul jumps. That's the only important "Pet" portion of Dragoon.

Most importantly, I was looking more at Leon excluding Drg if procs were not an issue. I could care less what you think on the matter, considering all you're likely to do is huff around about how great pet jobs can be in the right hands and other such inane tripe. I don't like bad Wars any more than I like bad Pups. A good War is simply a hell of a lot better than a good Pup, and a good Drg is not very far behind a good War - a truly great Drg is miles ahead of the rest of the pack.