[dev1029] Warrior

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106...=1#post4830267

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

This nerf is not minor. The cap to Restraint was halved and the rate at which it charges was also halved.

There is nothing minor about that.

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How was the charge rate nerfed? It took 10 melee rounds before and it takes 10 now, unless I missed something?

10 melee rounds pre nerf would get you twice the buff it does now

i.e

lets say 10 hits got you 20% dmg
soon 10 hits will get you 10% dmg

Other than the fact that 10 was an arbitrary number to give equal testing, which I wasnt aware of...it doesnt change the fact that the charge RATE was nerfed...implying it takes longer to cap out.

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Originally Posted by Nynja

Other than the fact that 10 was an arbitrary number to give equal testing, which I wasnt aware of...it doesnt change the fact that the charge RATE was nerfed...implying it takes longer to cap out.

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No. If the Rate and the Cap were both nerfed proportionally (they were), it will always take the same amount of time to cap out (it will).

If it took you 10 hits at 5% WSDMG/hit to cap at 50% pre-nerf, it will take you 10 hits at 2.5% WSDMG/hit to cap at 25% pre-nerf. Obviously, hit number is arbitrary. Byrth discusses the proper formula in the thread linked above.

Tangent: Either people in this thread just play with really shitty SAMs or they don't do enough 90+ content. Outside Abyssea, SAM is beyond broken.

Tangent 2: I think the Suicide JA is retarded. SAM is overpowered right now, that doesn't make WAR underpowered. If you want to give some ridiculous suicidal AoE JA Haste buff to any job in FFXI, give it to Dark Knight so they can /emo out and make a dozen threads on these forums about how much it sucks and how they're all quitting next update.

@GG

I found it nearly impossible to find a decent anything (job) on Asura.

There were around 5~9 players that I played with more than once that I could honestly say were very good. Maybe at most 10. The rest, even those who had 4~5 emps and 2~3 relics did less damage than my DRG that still uses Ares body.

So no, I've never played with a SAM that has out parsed any WAR. Took 3 WAR's to zerg VW for wins, on WAR I did 28% damage, the other two did 18/22%, (Hverg w/ dusty wing says hi)SMN did 12, (Masa)SAM did 10, the rest was BLM's and procs. This was a reoccurring thing too, not just one fight that favored WAR's high accuracy or anything.

SAM gains a lot of ground outside abyssea, but even on a Salvage boss I've out parsed masa sam using 2 hour (On a short fight ~6 WS's should make up most of the damage quickly) though only by a small percentage. We were both Paralyzed, but Retaliation made it so my DPS was higher than his even with all that WS damage.

If you're good enough at WAR that you can take the hits with retaliation up, there's no job conceivable that can out do you.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I did, and I did. SAM is about equal, still not as good in my experience. The SAM-WAR relationship seems reversed to 75. SAM used to be slightly ahead, now WAR seems slightly ahead.

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what? Sam was a terrible DD at 75 except 2 situation: zerg ( polearm) amd HNM. WAR and mnks completly own it everywhere else ( at least +25% dmg), MNK/WAR and WAR/SAM being about equal. Your averge noob thought SAM was good because getting TP w/o meleeing is so awsome!! Oh wait, its not. The very reason SAM was good on HNM was the reason it was bad on non-HNM ( capped attack on WS). Considering relic was the only good great katana, and SAM were compelled to wield a polearm ( -50 acc -50 att), I'd say SAM was a pure failure except for the two above situations.

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Originally Posted by Rearden

SAM shits on WAR, period.

Unless you base FFXI off Abyssea which no one should.

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You should explain with math what made SAM awsome. Unless you mean relic SAM shits over ukon war ( lolz). They sure did ungimp it. I think its just as bad as before honestly ( i.e avergae DD). I don't see how it can come close to MNK and WAR outiside abyssea. Go ahead please.

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Originally Posted by Gokku

10 melee rounds pre nerf would get you twice the buff it does now

i.e

lets say 10 hits got you 20% dmg
soon 10 hits will get you 10% dmg

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It's not "charge rate" nerf. You look at it like this.

Let's say 10 hits gets you the maxmium effect.
Soon 10 hits will get you the maximum effect.

No change in 'charge rate." The amount of time it takes to get the most bonus possible is still the same.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It's not "charge rate" nerf. You look at it like this.

Let's say 10 hits gets you the maxmium effect.
Soon 10 hits will get you the maximum effect.

No change in 'charge rate." The amount of time it takes to get the most bonus possible is still the same.

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The rate of charge is decreased. The time it takes to reach maximum effect is not. It's semantics, but you're confusing the terms. Both you and Gokku are correct in your numbers, but he is correct in his terminology.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

@GG

I found it nearly impossible to find a decent anything (job) on Asura.

There were around 5~9 players that I played with more than once that I could honestly say were very good. Maybe at most 10. The rest, even those who had 4~5 emps and 2~3 relics did less damage than my DRG that still uses Ares body.

So no, I've never played with a SAM that has out parsed any WAR. Took 3 WAR's to zerg VW for wins, on WAR I did 28% damage, the other two did 18/22%, (Hverg w/ dusty wing says hi)SMN did 12, (Masa)SAM did 10, the rest was BLM's and procs. This was a reoccurring thing too, not just one fight that favored WAR's high accuracy or anything.

SAM gains a lot of ground outside abyssea, but even on a Salvage boss I've out parsed masa sam using 2 hour (On a short fight ~6 WS's should make up most of the damage quickly) though only by a small percentage. We were both Paralyzed, but Retaliation made it so my DPS was higher than his even with all that WS damage.

If you're good enough at WAR that you can take the hits with retaliation up, there's no job conceivable that can out do you.

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Something that is a recurring theme in any melee vs melee discussion is people play differently. Some take the game seriously enough to research and develop a tedious gear selection fine tuned to their playing. There are the others that just play for fun that don't care either way. This leads to discussion such as this that players compare people to each other and have no fundamental basis for a comparison.

The warrior job itself involves figuring out your weapon skill properties and adjusting your gear selection for it. A person then brings in another factor like a critical hit rate inside and outside abyssea which changes drastically according to that said selection. I have tried to explain why people with Uko. seem to suck outside abyssea where they are not geared accordingly but it falls on def ears. I just wish people would research and actually TRY the damn gear sets instead of always being sheep.

^ thats extremely true about 99% of carbuncles ukon wars.

my maschu+2 war's ukkos in and outside abyssea straight wreck most players numbers.

ill have my ukon to 90 in about 3 months at my current play rate we will see then how much more it does.

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Originally Posted by Monchat

what? Sam was a terrible DD at 75 except 2 situation: zerg ( polearm) amd HNM. [..] MNK/WAR and WAR/SAM being about equal.

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I have severely different numbers, for both of those claims. SAM being an outstanding DD for almost any situation, except for zerg (Polearm?), where it was just about average. My WAR outdid any SAM in the game on any zerg I ever attempted, and by a nice margin too (including two almost perfectly geared relic SAM). In other situations, I couldn't get in the 80% range of them, not in HNM, Dyna or merit parties.

MNK, on the other hand, could never hold a candle to me, although I never compared to a Spharai MNK (then again, I didn't have a Bravura either). I did have three exceptionally well-geared MNK to compete with though, and while they could sometimes come close to me, they never beat me in damage.

I agree that the average SAM was shitty, but that's just because the average player was shitty. And since SAM was the bandwagon job, everyone wanted to get in on it. Hence, the majority of SAM sucked. It doesn't mean the job sucked, it didn't then and it doesn't now. But regardless of SAM's standing, WAR is overpowered, both inside and outside of Abyssea. Most jobs are, WAR more than others.

SAM was just retard proof with Gekko, 1 set does all. You needed proper buffs and gear selection on WAR to outshine SAM in continuous fighting situations like stated above.

As we haven’t seen any major concerns regarding the forthcoming warrior adjustment, we plan on implementing what is currently being tested on the Test Server in the version update.

We’ll monitor the adjustment post-level 99 cap increase and look into whether further adjustments are necessary. As always, please let us know if you have any feedback.

That's too bad.

If you gotta take something away, better give us something great at 99

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

That's too bad.

If you gotta take something away, better give us something great at 99

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Man, I hope they do.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

That's too bad.

If you gotta take something away, better give us something great at 99

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They don't have to give you anything... what terrible logic. Nerfing the most ridiculously broken dd job in the game via one ability hardly deems compensation mandatory. Why do they have to give you anything to make up for it? If you will still be the top at 99 then you obviously didn't need it...

Personally, I think it's funny that while most other jobs have communities that discuss various strategies and tricks of the trade required to make their job shine as a badass in its niche, the war, sam, and to a lesser extent mnk communities are pretty much "HURDUR WE BEST DD EVAR" except for like, a handful of people who actually know how to MAKE the job overpowered, while the bulk of the "hurdur" group actually royally suck and couldn't keep up with a half intelligent melee WHM* in terms of damage, let alone an actual DD job played by someone who knows wtf they're doing. And I'm not saying this as someone who's not a member of these communities. Mnk was my first love, and warrior my second. Pup is my favorite but I try to give all three equal play time.


*Note: before someone attacks this comment about melee whm, I'm simply giving a slight exaggeration for the sake of making a point. The bulk of the people who've posted in this thread so far can't seem to take a fucking joke (read: Seriously people, you thought that the "suicide" JA was a serious proposal? That thing screams "lol, overpowered bullshitting spitball idea" so loud that they can hear it back in 1832), so I wanted to make this comment's point clear.

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Originally Posted by Dfoley

They don't have to give you anything... what terrible logic.

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What terrible reading comprehension. He never said they had to give us anything, and he never demanded it. He's just hoping for it, same as every other Warrior on here. In fact, I've never seen a calmer reaction to an announced nerf from a group than when this was announced (which was even made clear by Camate himself in his above post), because WARs know their place and that asking for more would just be greedy. Take the lovely DRK people for example, who even bitch after an announced fix for their abilities. And about the "most ridiculously broken DD", there are still people who dispute WAR's top rank among current DDs, for good reason. Because the front lines of that race are blurry, and WAR isn't the only one at the top.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

In fact, I've never seen a calmer reaction to an announced nerf from a group than when this was announced (which was even made clear by Camate himself in his above post), because WARs know their place and that asking for more would just be greedy.

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Probably in part due to the fact that noone really uses restraint to it's full potential anyway. WS as fast and often as you can and it barely makes a difference to your ws. Now it will simply barely make even less difference.

I am still looking forward to the JA allowing us to swap weapon damage type. Hoping they haven't forgotten about that one.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Probably in part due to the fact that noone really uses restraint to it's full potential anyway. WS as fast and often as you can and it barely makes a difference to your ws. Now it will simply barely make even less difference.

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If you land three attacks in between WS, it will give you a 3%~5% direct damage boost, depending on your buffs. It's not much, but still useful (especially if you land more single hits). Imagine that kind of boost on equipment, and everyone would want it for every job.

And now imagine a nerf being announced to Scarlet Delirium. DRKs would throw a fit despite their universal acknowledgement that the ability sucks Chocobo balls. Dfoley's comment just was completely unjustified, no one in here freaked out because of this and no one demanded anything. He's making stuff up.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

I am still looking forward to the JA allowing us to swap weapon damage type. Hoping they haven't forgotten about that one.

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Me too, a little disconcerting that we still didn't hear about that yet. Although we didn't hear much about any job so far, other than PUP. I would really love if we could also discard weapon type with it and make it magical, like Formless Strikes. I doubt this would happen, but it's nice to dream.

Shouldn't really be taking anything away from Warrior.

Ever.

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Originally Posted by Urteil

Shouldn't really be taking anything away from Warrior.

Ever.

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Dammit, drk trolling here too? who mentioned nerfing scarlet watchamacall it?! Seriouslly, learn to play the game and what balance is before you post idiotic comments like this. No wonder 99% of your drk threads end up being ignored...

I would rather that instead of you taking away things from jobs - that you just boost other jobs. But that's just me.

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Originally Posted by Xellith

I would rather that instead of you taking away things from jobs - that you just boost other jobs. But that's just me.

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Yes because it was be easier to adjust 20 jobs then one.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

What terrible reading comprehension. He never said they had to give us anything, and he never demanded it. He's just hoping for it, same as every other Warrior on here.

In fact, I've never seen a calmer reaction to an announced nerf from a group than when this was announced (which was even made clear by Camate himself in his above post), because WARs know their place and that asking for more would just be greedy.

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Going to wager a guess that you have no idea what the term 'reading comprehension' even means based on your reply.

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better give us something great at 99

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This is not a hope - this is a demand / expectation.

"I hope they give us something nice at 99" or "wouldn't it be great if we got something nifty/useful at 99 that added utility without breaking out dd"

Those two statements I would consider hopes and not demands.

The reason warriors are so calm and quiet about this whole thing is they will still have fantastic DD and be highly sought after, and above all else, any warrior with half a brain already knew that the DD was a bit too high and needed adjusting.

Compare restraint to the monk version (impetus) and you will see a completely different (wont say more balanced) alternative. Your bonus could reset every time you miss....

Impetus is a bigger boost to Mnk's damage than Restraint is for War.

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Originally Posted by xbobx

Yes because it was be easier to adjust 20 jobs then one.

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I never once said it wasn't easier to just gimp jobs than add new stuff. But isn't that what SE is meant to be doing? Giving us new content and leveling the playing field. Just my personal preference that I would rather they boost jobs that need it instead of gimping jobs.

You know what'd give Restraint some use? Huge bonus to Subtle Blow, lower Attack by half, give damage reduction, the effect wears when you WS. Then we could at least run in and build restraint charge in situations where only the tank should be in AoE range. Could even have it share a buff position with Berserk like Hasso/Seigan or Yonin/Innin so that they overwrite each other while being on separate timers.

Actually you know what? Forget Restraint. Just give those bonuses to Defender and put them on 3 minute timers so we can always ride one or the other, Hasso/Seigan style.

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I would rather that instead of you taking away things from jobs - that you just boost other jobs. But that's just me.

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They said they plan on boosting all other jobs. The thing is they said since WAR is so powerful right now, they'd rather not use WAR in its current state to be a model for other jobs to be based on otherwise the game would be (even) easier than it is now. So they plan on weakening WAR to where they're comfortable buffing other jobs to. So if on an imaginary scale of usefulnes ranging from 1-10, WAR is 12 ouf 10 stars. They want to make WAR a 8.5 or 9.5 out of 10 before they bring all the jobs that are currently a 6 or 7 to the new 8.5-9.5. If they brought all jobs to WAR's current level, it would be too crazy. They admitted they made WAR a little overpowered so they wanna pull it back a little so that WAR isn't ahead of every other DD by miles but by yards.

Every one of you guys is treating this thread way more seriously than you should.

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Originally Posted by Xellith

I never once said it wasn't easier to just gimp jobs than add new stuff. But isn't that what SE is meant to be doing? Giving us new content and leveling the playing field. Just my personal preference that I would rather they boost jobs that need it instead of gimping jobs.

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They'd have to make other jobs equal to gods just to balance them out if they left WAR exactly as it is.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

They'd have to make other jobs equal to gods just to balance them out if they left WAR exactly as it is.

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I wouldn't call WAR a god of DD
I believe the stronger DD player base have gravitated towards the job due to it's post abyssea utility. Bringing with it strong gear set builds and macro set ups to max out damage. And I've seen what a well gear, seasoned DRK can do with a Caladbolg. And it's impressive by any standards.

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Originally Posted by Dfoley

Dammit, drk trolling here too? who mentioned nerfing scarlet watchamacall it?! Seriouslly, learn to play the game and what balance is before you post idiotic comments like this. No wonder 99% of your drk threads end up being ignored...

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Warrior honestly doesn't need anything taken away from it. Trolling isn't worth my precious time.



You're the idiot.