Final Heaven builds

No relic can't proc on WS.

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Originally Posted by Atoreis

So Relic can now proc x3 on WS cool.

If you really think Veret wont win with Spharai(using FH) in term of pure damage you might rethink doing a math for this game at all ^^

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It doesn't because mob have finite HP and I verify it every day in dynamis. I got level 95 vere and mdk uses the level 95 relic and we pull 500ish coins both so yeah. So yeah it will probably hurt your ego but my math doesn't include 3x proc on WS and spharai owns by a large margin.

go ahead do the math smart ass [in before: lets assume 30%/70% ws/melee split kind of fail BG maths]

Also he never said that you can get a triple proc. I said myself I never got it ( or just maybe once, which could also be a epnona's ring proc). Just mention it because someone in the early post in the tread said it can. Its not hard to imagine verethragna will lose if its aftermath isnt up often.

You're quick at denoucing people to the internet police lol.

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Originally Posted by Monchat

go ahead do the math smart ass [in before: lets assume 30%/70% ws/melee split kind of fail BG maths]

Also he never said that you can get a triple proc. I said myself I never got it ( or just maybe once, which could also be a epnona's ring proc). Just mention it because someone in the early post in the tread said it can. Its not hard to imagine verethragna will lose if its aftermath isnt up often.

You're quick at denoucing people to the internet police lol.

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Relic proc on WS would triple you WS dmg. Triple attack from epona on Final heaven is +50%. 2x Triple attack is double the damage. If Pchan was confused because of you than you should apologize him :)

Relic triple proc assumin your 30/70 split is only like +4% overall damage ( how? 10% for triple is +20% dmg from melee but its only for one hand so its 10%. This 10% * 0.7 (from split) is 7%. Relic cant proc on second or third hit of DA/TA and thats like at least 15-20% of you hits. 6%*0.85 is 5.1%. Now fists damage from melee damage is around 90% ( 10% is kicks on which relic cant proc either. 90/10 fists/kicks dmaage split is total guess in favor of spharai. correct me if i am very wrong here. that makes 5.1*0.9= 4.59% Add accuracy correction (95%) and overkilling and you have around 4% increase in overall damage from relic triple proc. Assuming Pchan's avg Vsmite and Final heaven which is hard to believe but I will use it anyway. Avg Smite is ~16% higher. 16%*0.3 (from your melee/ws split again) is 4.8% overall increase (around 4% after acc correction and overkill). So even using your super skewed numbers Spharai is equal in dmg to Veret w/o aftermath up at all.

If you only joked about 30/70 split tell me plz what is true split because I seriously dont know, never tried to check/parse it because it will be different for all kind of events (for example squishy dynamis and VW when you have 20-45 saveTP, 5-10regain/tic, wings). But I will gladly listen what is a true ws/melee split for MNK.

INB4: BG math is useless. You are the only one that can do it right :)

You don't know the split or how you could calculate the split ? It's means that you can't math out any DD. So yeah your place is truly on BG. Even alla mnk forums can do it.

1) Relic is 12% proc on one hand
2) No one said triple will proc on DA or on TA
3) You didn't read what is being discussed ; you are a troll. I explained that if there were no pause between mobs vere will win easily, so go back to being a tool.
4) I gave the average number of rounds required for a WS on average so with this, If you could calculate melee damage or WS damage, which you can't (judging from your post), you would be able to get the split.
5) why would the split be the same for the three situations : relic+FH/vere/relic+AF ¿

For your information in typical situations with 3 seconds delay
*relic melee damage average (including kick and triple) is 5% better than vere (including odd and kick)
* VS damage is 35% better than FH and asuran is 2% better than FH.
* Verehtragna TPs 6% less often than spharai

As a result in this case relic beats vere by 1.2%, and asuran is better anyway.

For your information in typical situations with infinite HP mobs
*relic melee damage average (including kick and triple) is 4.4% better than vere (including odd and kick)
* VS damage is 38% better than FH and asuran is ~2% better than FH.
* Verehtragna TPs 5.4% less often than spharai

As a result in this case vere is better by ~12%

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

You don't know the split or how you could calculate the split ? It's means that you can't math out any DD. So yeah your place is truly on BG. Even alla mnk forums can do it.

1) Relic is 12% proc on one hand
2) No one said triple will proc on DA or on TA
3) You didn't read what is being discussed ; you are a troll. I explained that if there were no pause between mobs vere will win easily, so go back to being a tool.
4) I gave the average number of rounds required for a WS on average so with this, If you could calculate melee damage or WS damage, which you can't (judging from your post), you would be able to get the split.
5) why would the split be the same for the three situations : relic+FH/vere/relic+AF ¿

For your information in typical situations with 3 seconds delay
*relic melee damage average (including kick and triple) is 5% better than vere (including odd and kick)
* VS damage is 35% better than FH and asuran is 2% better than FH.
* Verehtragna TPs 6% less often than spharai

As a result in this case relic beats vere by 1.2%, and asuran is better anyway.

For your information in typical situations with infinite HP mobs
*relic melee damage average (including kick and triple) is 4.4% better than vere (including odd and kick)
* VS damage is 38% better than FH and asuran is ~2% better than FH.
* Verehtragna TPs 5.4% less often than spharai

As a result in this case vere is better by ~12%

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Its not about I cant math it. It is just different for many events and situation. I just dont care for it that much.
Believe in w/e you want tho. In the end we play for fun.

I'm mainly wondering if you're using the incorrect assumption that Vereth Aftermath does not overwrite itself? Assuming you are getting Haste buffs, which you say you are, and there is only a 3 second delay between each fight, you should not be dropping Aftermath at all.

You keep saying that 3 second pauses between fights will cause Vere's Aftermath to be down for a significant chunk of time, but I'm having a hard time substantiating that claim. If you're going to post math in response to this, please have the courtesy to include units and proper formatting for us. You seemed to calculate WS frequency in terms of rounds to 100 TP last time, but that was completely irrelevant to the question I asked. The important number was Time to 100 TP in Seconds, because that would determine how long Vere's Aftermath goes down, if at all.

I think this was caused by a misunderstanding of what I had meant when I said WS frequency, maybe? Regardless, the number I was looking for was how often you were Weaponskilling, in Seconds, which is based on your post-buff Delay. Assuming Marches+Haste, or 68.3% Haste, that's a delay of 104.927. Assuming we use your calculations on Rounds/WS, that's 7.04931 rounds or 739.6629 delay per WS. That translates to 12.32 seconds per WS. Aftermath level 1 has a duration of 30 seconds and overwrites itself. In what situation are you going going to spend more than 18 seconds between weaponskills with a 3 second delay between mobs? If this does not occur, then Vere Aftermath will never drop at all.

you don't have 104 delay since it caps at 106 first, secondly the aftermath doesn't overwrite itself.

104=>106 delay doesn't change the numbers by very much, and are you entirely sure that Level 1 Aftermath doesn't overwrite itself? =/. Nearly a year with my Vere and I've never seen AM drop unless I'm idling or using a Level 2 or 3 Aftermath.

Nvm it overwrite itself. However the point still stands as far as procing goes which is the only content in the game right now.

After fixing the program Vere is still confortably (10%) ahead of relic in the case a 3s delay between mobs. Secondly asuran still pawns FH which is the news of the thread.

vereth's strength comes from its aftermaths, while spharai's aftermaths blows. Since SE clearly refuses to fix relic, the only possible thing that can make relic better, is the new WS we will get.

From parsings, Victory smite is easilly 30% or more than spharai's asuran fists. But the new weaponskill doesn't have to be better than victory smite. If it is somewhere between asuran fists and VS, the relic will be #1 again, just need to know how much better than asuran fists it needs to be. Lol I sold all my sellable FH gears now that im convinced it cannot break asuran fists and bought some good asuran gear sets out there [ rager ledelsens, mars's ring and the str+4 att+15 necklace]. There is also a new atack+25 back item. Im easilly 100 attack above my VS or FH gear sets , and do quite good asurans ( 1800s when vere would do 2200).

The problem is that you need to large of a WS boost to make them match (30% ish) since melee dot is about equal in the end.

JP MNK on Qilin today had 43/57 melee/WS ratio split.
His avg Vsmite was 1937 and he did one Asuran for 700.
Even assuming Relic Asuran would be closer to 1k it is still far far from Veret.
I dont have time to math it now because of RL but since you are so interested... wouldnt Ascetic fury beat Asuran by fair margin at least with Impetus up?

Ascetic fury sucks. The math of verethragna vs FH vs asuran was done earlier give us a break. Vere thragna melee /ws split is 62%/38% with normal gear and buffs.

ascetic Blows... My parses ( lv 95 mobs in dynamis): asuran fists with relic 95 versus victory smite with vere 90 (300 samples each set):

lv 95 Mob1:AF=1400 VS=1800
lv95 Mob2:AF=1900 VS=2200
lv95 Mob3: AF=1500 VS=1800

Both WS with optimized gearsets, red curry, minuet V no dia, no berzerk. This gives an idea of the relative difference and VS is at most 30% better on average.

the mobs were level 95-96 since they are dyn mobs. Maybe 97.

I'm really just curious at this point, but is there a reason you're alternating posting with your own mule? Or is that just MDKuser?

Honestly, I'm not too surprised that Asuran has a solid trail behind Smite. It's a solid WS. Most people just haven't bothered updating their set for it too much since 85. I didn't really expect Final Heaven to be worth a damn either, so I suppose everything turned out as expected.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Ascetic fury sucks. The math of verethragna vs FH vs asuran was done earlier give us a break. Vere thragna melee /ws split is 62%/38% with normal gear and buffs.

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You need to be less defensive really.
I didnt write it to prove you wrong just wanted to show how things change basing on event you do.
On dynamis its 62/38 but on VW its more like 45/55. Non crit WS loses much more on harder things too. Avg Vsmite will be probably at least 70% better than Asuran on mobs like Qilin.

No way lol. Your critical hit rate will be garbage unless you get some drink. It will be most likely floored at 10% + a few base (and I use 20% as base, so 30% total), that won't change the outcome much. Your JP guy does 2k it means that mob doesn't have defense.

As an exemple using +100 def compared to normal on a mob with +7 level correction I find
FH=1249 VS=1876 AF=1563

Using +200 def on a mob with +7 level correction I find
FH=975 VS=1586 AF=1352

Using +100 def on a mob with +10 level I find
FH=1100 VS=1681 AF=1388

Using +200 def on a mob with +10 level I find
FH=803 VS=1366 AF=1253

Let's put everything extreme, +400 def and +15 level correction :
FH=412.6170984 VS=952.5869455 AF=649.4817002

So in an absurdely defavorable situation VS is 46% better than asuran and in the others it's 20%,17%,21%,9%

When you increase the level difference even more the critical hit rate will be pathetic due to too high level correction so it's going to be <9%. The only thing that can make VS very high compared to asuran is near capped crit rate or moderate level correction and irreallistic defense.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

No way lol. Your critical hit rate will be garbage unless you get some drink. It will be most likely floored at 10% + a few base (and I use 20% as base, so 30% total), that won't change the outcome much. Your JP guy does 2k it means that mob doesn't have defense.

As an exemple using +100 def compared to normal on a mob with +7 level correction I find
FH=1249 VS=1876 AF=1563

Using +200 def on a mob with +7 level correction I find
FH=975 VS=1586 AF=1352

Using +100 def on a mob with +10 level I find
FH=1100 VS=1681 AF=1388

Using +200 def on a mob with +10 level I find
FH=803 VS=1366 AF=1253

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I am pretty sure that Vsmite is at least +15% at 100TP. Merit + base is 10%. Rancor is 5%. That's 30% and now there is impetus that is hard to tell really but assuming 90% accuracy its at least 5% crit rate and damage.

So at least 35%crit rate during Impetus and at least 5% crit damage.

In practice its much more actually because there can be WAR or 2 in party that will throw you blood rage. You might be more lucky on hits with Impetus ( like for example with 90% accuracy you can miss 2 in a row than hit 18 in a row and then your avg from impetus will raise ). Parse is best prove tho. I parsed them on 6 fights and on everytime his avg Vsmite was higher than WARs Ukkos and thats possible only with higher or similar crit rate and WAR have around 50% easily.

No it's easy to tell

10% base 20% victory smite 10% average for impetus =40% which is the average crit% for the values I gave above.