Way to go Square, you guys just made Empyrean Weapons easier to get in comparison to building a weapon from Walk of Echoes drops. I thought it was the other way around?
Walk of the no Coin drops??? formerly Walk of echoes
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09-23-2011, 01:54 AMQuetzacoatl
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09-23-2011, 01:55 AMEreciaThat was very well done, sir.Quote:
Originally Posted by scaevola
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09-23-2011, 02:04 AMZaknafeinIf you got 2 coins in three days you are doing something very wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by tins
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09-23-2011, 02:09 AMtinsI meant 2 of the coins I need for my trial, overall i got 10 coins playing 3h a day. And i have yet to see a pouch drop from a chest...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaknafein
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09-23-2011, 02:11 AMQuetzacoatlSuch as not doing an empyrean insteadQuote:
Originally Posted by Zaknafein
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09-23-2011, 02:26 AMTaint2
While I really enjoy the new system and have gotten some good money drops, I have yet to see a coin on my main or my mule lol.
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09-23-2011, 02:27 AMscaevolaQuote:
Originally Posted by tins
For the three-billionth time, the point of WoE is not and has never been to make only one weapon any more than the point of FFXI has been to play only one job.
It's embarrassing to even have to explain this, but let's say Little Timmy casually makes a Masamune over the course of two months and little Tommy goes to WoE and gets enough (or close to enough) coins to make one of each of the four types of weapons in about the same time. Judging from my experience so far, 2 months of a few WoEs a day ought to bring you enough coins for that.
At the end of this, Little Timmy's SAM has Fudo and an ODD proc. Little Tommy's SAM has Fudo, his NIN has Hi, his MNK has VSmite, and his THF and DNC have Rudra's.
Timmy's awesome SAM is still a SAM. People do not always want or need SAMs. Tommy, however, has access to an Empyrean WS regardless of what any group he might join may need at that particular moment. -
09-23-2011, 02:28 AMLeonlionheartUnfortunately now that prices on gear have already dropped drastically, the amount of people doing it will fall too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Similar to when WoE was introduced, it will die out after the initial rush. I give it two weeks maximum, maybe more if flux 11 gives good Dice drops, as they are currently the best seller from WoE on Asura, going for 250k~ (yeah and you need 100, you might as well go buy your KI pops by shouting in jeuno for the damn emp).
After that, like I said, you'll go back to SMN BST COR only. Just wait.
Edit: Also, I've been doing flux 9. It has a version of Turul/Amhuluk (similar to the new VW NM in Rolanberry S) that, in addition to everything Amhuluk, has a HP/MP down that reduced my HP on SMN from 1100 to 550. The following Vermillion wind did ~1000. The PLD's barely survive, and they all had Ochains. If you think of another way to win besides pets, please let me know. -
09-23-2011, 02:53 AMAlhanelemIDK maybe you need to contribute more or something. After any given run (with like 10-20 people) I always see a couple people opening bags.Quote:
Originally Posted by tins
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09-23-2011, 03:02 AMtinsMaybe that's the problem, i get overall 8k exp performance with dnc which usually gives me 2 random coins (and 1 die in my las run).Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
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09-23-2011, 03:09 AMscaevola
I honestly don't think your final assessment affects what loot you get once it's established you're getting loot at all. I've gotten 4 coins for a 5k assessment and 1 coin for a 9k one.
I mean, the loot spreads across several 5500ish assessments for me were so random that I can't imagine getting any sort of predictive sample without dozens of people recording their results for months, and for what? Coins come consistently enough that if you stick with WoE, you'll finish your weapons, period.
Probably the best thing you could do is hang on to any of the rare drops you get that are not likely to AH for very much, or even buy them off the AH if you're that desperate; as far as I can tell you always get five pieces of loot from the chest, so having a Rare item in your inventory ought to remove the possibility of it loading for you, Treasures and Tribulations style. -
09-23-2011, 03:52 AMCatsby
You can't forget that people often have multiple jobs leveled up. If you finish a nice weapon in a few days you might be more inclined to do it all over again(maybe again and again) than if it took you a week.
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09-23-2011, 04:16 AMCamate
I received some feedback from the development team concerning coin drop rates. Since it has only been a couple of days since the version update was implemented and also considering that in there were adjustments to participation numbers as well as new chambers, we would like to make the appropriate decision while monitoring all these things on a wide-scale.
Also, it can be thought that the feeling of there not being a lot of coins is due to the effects of changing the reward distribution method from casting lots to individual treasure chests.
In the case of lotting rewards, the amount was based on the division between the number of participants, so there really isn’t any guarantee that you could obtain a reward even if there were a good amount of them, making it so the chance of you obtaining something would decrease with a higher amount of players participating.
On the other hand, individual treasure chests give one player’s worth of rewards, so it’s possible that the volume feels a bit poor. However, you are guaranteed to obtain these rewards and it is equivalent to the results after lotting. Since we have prepared this on an individual scale, in actuality the total number of rewards have increased. On this basis, the system has been set up so the total amount of coins, as well as the amount gained by a single player, will increase. -
09-23-2011, 04:19 AMLeonlionheart
Super edit: Camate, please let the dev team know that Silver ore is NOT something you should be getting from high end game content.
Along with crap logs, gems, and other materials that no one EVER uses anymore. I find myself dropping 2/3's of WoE drops -
09-23-2011, 04:45 AMElexia
Yeah..I always wondered...
Why do we get random ores and logs and whatnot from any new event (VW/WoE) it's like saying "For your valiant efforts in slaying this Behemoth, you will be rewarded with 2 Silver Ore, a Beech Log and a chunk of Amber...what you wanted new gear? That's not why you do these! You do them for the ore!"
I guess they just throw in generic drops so you always get something for your efforts. -
09-23-2011, 04:50 AMsvengalis
So going in with more people is actually a bad thing if you can win with a lower number of players... That's what I got from Camate's post anyway.
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09-23-2011, 04:51 AMBabekeke
Perhaps make them tradable since they are no longer poolable? Or include the opportunity to put your coins into the treasure pool of people in your own party? Like with items from gold chests in abyssea.
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09-23-2011, 05:06 AMxbobx
Seems a bit whacked. So you improve the content so more people do because you have to do, but if you have too many people you get less coins. But if you don't have enough players then you can't win therefore you get nothing.
What you guys need to realize many people get these weapons for the weaponskills, they are not the best weapons in the game, and some are not even that good. You already go thought a fairly large time sink doing the nms and vnms, which makes some sense although very boring. Getting 30 coins should not be a 300 hour investment.
Again, you guys always talk about game balance, but this is so far out of balance that it needs to be fixed. A emp weapon should not be easier and faster to get then a weapon people aquire for a weaponskill. Fact is, you shouldn't have to go through this much work for a weaponskill to begin with. -
09-23-2011, 05:10 AMscaevolauhQuote:
Originally Posted by svengalis
how
He's referring to how it used to be. The reward structure under the new system functions independently of how many people participate.Quote:
In the case of lotting rewards, the amount was based on the division between the number of participants, so there really isn’t any guarantee that you could obtain a reward even if there were a good amount of them, making it so the chance of you obtaining something would decrease with a higher amount of players participating.
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09-23-2011, 05:22 AMxbobx
I think what they need to do is just look at some simple math and figured out how long it would take to get 30 coins on average and compare that with other weapons to see if it is balanced. I am not sure they do this.
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09-23-2011, 05:24 AMXellithRandom loot you do NOT want does not make for fun content. This is one of the reasons many people dont do Voidwatch. Spend all your time and energy and get the opposite of what it was you was aiming at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
Just give us Voidwatch Points and Walk of Echo points. Let us trade these in for the items we desire. Stop being so stupid and retarded about all this. Its been said by many people to just instate point systems in place of these stupid random drops. -
09-23-2011, 05:26 AMZigou
Well,
so now you don't get a chance to accomplish anything solo.
You must follow the flow ( till peoples get enough, and then move on from VW )
And it's look for me as an other good thing for dualboxing account ............ SE are you sponsors of Dbox?
So where do we stand here Solo players........... ??? -
09-23-2011, 05:29 AMGreatguardianHi, Camate!Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
I understand what you're saying, unfortunately I think the Devs are working under an imperfect understanding of how Walk of Echoes lotting used to function in practice.
The Devs are assuming, when they make their conclusions about the supply of Coins, that all players entering Walk of Echoes are free lotting all of the coins. In practice, this is not the case. Pre-Update, many players would lot on only one type of coin and pass alternate coin drops onto others. Rather than a free for all, an organized system of passing/lotting resulted in increased rewards for everyone present.
On an individual level, a player is more likely to end up with coins and items they do not need now than they would have previously, and less likely to obtain the items that they are pursuing.
While I understand the gap that must exist between the intended function of the system and the actual utilization by players in practice can often inhibit the Dev's understanding of our grievances, I hope that this will help to clear things up a bit. -
09-23-2011, 05:29 AMLeonlionheart
Seriously, as it is now VW drops are a total slap in the players face
When in the past have we ever had such horrible drops? Maybe Byakko didn't drop your pants, but at LEAST he dropped something of value at some point. I've done up to jeuno VW, including some of the new Jeuno NMs, and I've never gotten anything better than Durium ore.
WoE is in the same situation -
09-23-2011, 05:32 AMElexiaYou throw out the words "Stupid" and "Retarded" quite a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellith
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09-23-2011, 05:39 AMDreamin
I've raise this question and made a proposal on the test server feedback already on this. When I tried it on the test server, there were a total of 3 of us there on that day, so we basically didn't clear any flux so ended up with nothing to show for. Right now, a lot of ppl are doing WoE because of the high value scrolls that are dropping in there that they can sell. They're all only doing #7 at the moment while #1-#6 were all emptied (I didn't see any of the higher flux yet. might be that I'm not looking since there's now lag with all the pets in there).
I think the adjustments that really needed to be made are:
1. Allow us to trade in any coin for any other coin that we want (i.e. Ruin to Birth). Heck, make it trading 2 coins in for 1 coin out. This will eliminate the issue with people who keep getting the coin types that they do not want but can never get the coin types that they want (hello, Coin of Birth).
2. Give us some sort of WoE Points/Currency as I've stated in the thread on the Test Server feedback/bug post. That way, if there's no one else in there or if there's not enough people to do other lower tier flux, you can still earn points that you can then trade in for coins that you're after. Because after the initial influx of people going after scrolls to sell, WoE will die down and this will give people a chance to still progress toward the coins that they want.
As an added bonus, put those dice in there as well. Maybe make it so that 5x coins/points for every dice or something that is hard enough but is reachable. -
09-23-2011, 05:46 AMFrankReynoldsCamate,Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
Please read or translate the above quote to the developers as precisely as you can. This sums it up perfectly. -
09-23-2011, 05:47 AMscaevola
I have to repeat what I said on the first page and say the new WoE would be a *** disaster if you could complete the weapon of your choice in two days, which seems to be what the lot of you are asking for.
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09-23-2011, 05:55 AMSparthosThe point the devs seem to be missing Camate is that the WoE coins were supposed to be the easier path to the more "difficult" Empyreans yet pre and post patch this just is not the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
Post-Heroes Abyssea gives players the capability to churn through monsters like Carabosse and Kukulkan with ease. Due the to introduction of cheap brews, 3 atmas and TEs being trivial thanks to Abyssites, the difficulty that originally held back the Empyreans and made WoE weapons more attractive is gone.
So why exactly wouldn't the WoE weapons be made even easier? Pouches should be common occurrences and individuals should be swimming in coins because Heroes Abyssea set the standard that the Empyrean weapons would be easy to obtain.
The recent decision to cheapen the rarity of such items as Tiger King Hide and Sisyphus Fragments only strengthens the position that the developers want people to reach level 90 on Emps so why the extra hoops to jump through for the "inferior" weapons? I don't get the logic. -
09-23-2011, 05:59 AMSparthosIt's called add items that require lots of points to obtain and thus incentive to repeat the event for a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by scaevola
WoE+3s shouldn't be the incentive to do WoE because Empyreans have already been made so easy to obtain due to decisions made by the devs so making the -1 weapons a huge grind seems like backwards thinking. -
09-23-2011, 06:19 AMOrenwald
Total Runs:1
Total Coins:1
..... that's a sample size, right? :P -
09-23-2011, 06:33 AMxbobx
So lets look at some simple math, have to make assumptions. 5 type of coins, assume they have even drop rate and we will say you guaranteed one coin per run, truth is you may get none, or a pouch, so we will average it to one.
You do 10 runs a week casually, that is about 10 hours of time due to waiting. 30 coins times 5 assuming even rate that is 150 runs to get 30 coins you need, at 10 hours a week that is 15 weeks so almost 4 months.
If you spent 10 hours a week so 40 hours a month you could do 13 or so KI runs. In a 3 hour run you should get at least two sets average sometimes more sometimes less. so about 26 Ki sets a month. Considering single drop and popping nm, to get 50 of the item you talking at most a month and half, so that is 3 months of 10 hours a week.
Emp weapon casually in 3 months. Woe weapon casually just under 4 months.
this is SE's game balance. So SE forget about looking at what you think drop rate should be, look at the amount it takes to accomplish the goal and compare that to other weapons and see if it is balanced. btw it is not. -
09-23-2011, 06:51 AMErecia
Well. At least the devs are watching and thinking about WoE. More than I can say or hope for than hole-in-my-head Voidwatch.
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09-23-2011, 06:55 AMCamateDone annnnnd done.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankReynolds
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09-23-2011, 07:02 AMKrashport
n/a123451676
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09-23-2011, 07:04 AMbrayen
the coin rate is bad. As others have said people usually only want one type of coin. My friend has gotten just 1 coin that he needed. Additionally die rate seems by far the worse. 10 new runs and yet to see any drop and we need 100 of these. Whoever is making this astonishingly lame leaps in difficulty should try playing the game before making such changes.
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09-23-2011, 07:27 AMMDenhamSince the plural of anecdote around here is data, I'll just mention that I've received two dice on two runs and probably made someone wonder if I'm crazy by selling them for 35k apiece rather than the 250k I've seen in people's bazaars.Quote:
Originally Posted by brayen
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09-23-2011, 07:50 AMZagenIt took my friend and I 2 months to get Sword/Katana to 85 at about 15 hours a week. So that's 120 hours time, 30 hours less than xbobx's example numbers, you don't think that's messed up for a weaker version? Now technically that's 30 hours less than it would take you to get 6 WoE weapons which means you get 4 extra but do you even want them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Krashport
Even at 99 I doubt WoE weapon's extra DMG will make up for the ODD on most if not all level 85 Emps. I'm pretty sure most people here see WoE as the casual person's option for a Emp WS but currently it seems that the casual player might as well invest that time and get 2 Emps for jobs they really like to play, or less time if they only enjoy 1 job. Considering the addition of +2s to all Emp NMs it isn't impossible to get outside help just for +2 chances. -
09-23-2011, 07:50 AMLuvbunny
It seems that the developers are just being lazy and start on the conservative ends when it comes to the numbers of coins. After all, they do need to make sure that you have your "must have time sink" and do meaningless crap for bazillion times to extend gameplay - and rewarded poorly so that you have no options but to do them again and again. Now if only this equates with FUN, EASY and ENJOYABLE then more people will do it regardless of the hours and hours needed and the dismal drops since those are just a bonus for fun experience. Abyssea is one of the pinnacle achievement of this game, I wish the developers can continue with the high quality content on par with Abyssea and not creating the hot tranny mess that is everything else outside Abyssea...
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09-23-2011, 08:14 AMsvengalisOkay I will try to explain this so that you understand. Coin drop rates were INCREASED. The coins are divided amungst the players in the current flux. Lets say there is a 20 coin maximum drop per run no matter how many players enter the room. Lets say 36 people enter and the coins are divided evenly, this means 16 people wont get a coin. Now lets do the same scenario with 5 people. This now means everyone gets multiple coins. Understand it now?Quote:
Originally Posted by scaevola
This basically means that low manning fluxes 1-5 is more efficient then doing fluxes 8+ with 36 people.